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So I wonder just how much this will hurt them? I don't think we have seen the bottom of the septic tank yet. Some pretty dire predictions in the media. I think many other manufacturers must be in damage control already. Big Auto is well known to operate under dubious legal cover relying on big money to make problems go away. This will be interesting to watch. Honda must be jubilant.
BMW has also been implicated. Apparently the X3 is not what it seems.
As for VW, I think they are going to take a bath on this one. Their only saving grace may be the 50000 auto workers in Germany. The German government will not want to take action that could potentially put those people out of work. I suspect the whole upper echelon of the company will be sacked and they will launch a big PR campaign after the bills/fines are paid.
Give them 10 years and they will recover. Lets face it, we are only talking about not meeting an emission standard that California imposes. On balance GM made a business decision to not fix the ignition switch and many people died.
Actually, it is an emission standard that applies all across the entire U.S.A. and Canada. My understanding is that the vehicles also exceed similar European standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by DGearyFTE
Rob... to clarify, the emission standards in the US are driven California law. You are quite right to point out that it is a North American standard but it is the tree huggers on the west coast that drive it...
VW's biggest selling point has always been producing vehicles that are very fuel efficient. The technology to reduce emissions also reduces fuel economy. Bypass this and you get better fuel economy and sell vehicles--until you get caught!
Well, I do not agree about the tree-hugger comment. Air pollution affects all people, whether you are a tree hugger or a die-hard redneck. Beyond the health impacts, there is the additional issue of the unfair competitive advantage that the company(ies?) in question gained by the fraudulent activity. But you are correct in your suggestion that people do view emissions related fraud differently than safety related fraud because the impact of excess emissions is not as immediate or dramatic.Quote:
Originally Posted by DGearyFTE
There are always enormous "$Slush$" funds set aside for catastrophic law suits. This one's gonna leave a mark. Company lawyers are always an integral part of new product development. They take calculated risks on return on investment vs fines/settlements.
VW will weather this storm,but,it may be a very l-o-n-g storm. They'll find their scapegoats and s**t will roll down hill,they'll pay a whole whack of fines,grease all their customers with some cash,but,in the end,it'll be all good. It always has and always will.
I think VW will weather this in the long run, all the big auto makers have taken a major hit at one pint or another, they will apologize, lose a few visible management people and move on, company is simply to large to eliminate over this. I keep wondering if this is an opportunity, stock as dropped big time but if history is any indicator it will go back to where it stood before this.
Agreed....I don't consider this fiasco as serious as GM's ignition issue. This one didn't cost anyone their life ! If GM can survive, VW will also.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I have a 2013 Jetta TDI diesel. Some reports are coming out saying the "fix" will reduce fuel economy by up to 10%. Right now I am averaging 4.9 L/100 km.
So if the suggested fix is accurate and fuel mileage goes up to 5.4 L/100km it's still a hell of a lot better than most cars and trucks being sold today. But also then puts it on par with the gas engine offered in the same car.
It never ceases to amaze me that the enviro-mental cases get all up on themselves over piddlin' little diesel engines in cars,but,the Cummins,Louisville,Maxxforce10 and Allisons in semis and busses all get a "bye".
yep. And never mind the pollution that jet airplanes spew into the atmosphere. A huge part of air travel is vacationing/entertainment and not a necessity. The Eco zealots are very selective in what they "choose" yo believe in. Carbon taxes never reduce emissions, they just cause inflation and fill government coffers so they can give themselves raises.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
You can also add to the above , all the small single engine aircraft that are constantly flying around I see at least 10 to 15 in our area every day, just this morning alone there have been 9 flying around.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Emission testing for certification is not done with built online vehicles, all testing is done with vehicles that have been carefully prepped to ensure that they pass. Every emission device is tested before being installed onto the test vehicles, whenever there is a range for a pass/ fail of a component, the component is always selected to be in the best range to ensure a pass.
Also, emission testing is NOT done using gasoline, it is done with indolene, a much purer fuel to ensure the vehicle passes. Fuel lines and vacuum lines are also checked to make sure they seal completely before the "Shed Test", a test that looks at evaporative emissions.
No right off the line vehicle running on regular gasoline is going to pass the emissions requirements for certification. All they are proving is that if every part is perfect, every connection is tight and leak free, and the fuel is perfect, the system will be within an acceptable range, could be the bottom of the range, could be the top, but it will meet specs.
If you all are saying is true, why they had to cheat?Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulR
Good question. I'd like to hear VW explain, 'Why?' too.Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
Well that's kind of obvious, it couldn't pass the emission test and wasn't to stop selling some of their models in NA, but really who's care about that in North America. Everyone has toys that are much worse than a VW cars, have a look at the muskokas lake in summer. Regarding fuel consumption, we know how much gas we put in a tank, the mileage with that tank and how much it cost, believing what's the computer shows us it's like believing the mileage mentioned in an ads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahoo
VW/Audi/Seat and Skoda are pretty good cars, doesn't matter the story.
It COULD pass the emissions tests. Here is the best guess as to why that I've read:Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
"Volkswagen hasn't explained exactly why it cheated, but outside analysts have a good guess. The NOx emission controls likely degraded the cars' performance when they were switched on — the engines ran hotter, wore out more quickly, and got poorer mileage. Some experts have suggested that the emission controls may have affected the cars' torque and acceleration, making them less fun to drive. (Indeed, some individual car owners have been known to disable their cars' emission controls to boost performance, though this is against the law.)
In other words, Volkswagen wasn't able to produce diesel cars that had the ideal mix of performance, fuel economy, and low pollution. (Or, at least, they couldn't do this profitably.) So they "solved" this trade-off by sacrificing cleanliness and loosening the pollution controls. And they accomplished this via software designed to deceive regulators. This was wildly illegal, and they got caught."
http://www.vox.com/2015/9/21/9365667...passenger-cars
Since 2003, heavy trucks have been subject to increasingly stricter levels of emissions controls which has caused increase in purchase price in the tens of thousands, decreased fuel economy, decreased productivity and increased maintenance costs. Most truck running down the road today are essentially scrubbers. The air coming out of the stack is cleaner than the air going into the intake filter.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
How many people would not remove a piece of emission equipment on there car if they could, IF there gas mileage went up? Ya thought so.
Kind of speechless, I wasn't expecting that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahoo
I think this may have opened a can of worms. How many other manufacturers of automobiles are playing this game?
I would think none because no one else puts Diesel engines in their cars. Big trucks are an entity unto themselves and as such are exempt.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
they don't make a dent. ever got stuck on the 401 lately? urban planning (or the lack of it) is a serious issue and nobody will address this (especially not the tree huggers in California).Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
and if you look at government to make a real change, just look at those little buzzers: they are not allowed to have an muffler (even if the owner of a cert. general aircraft would like to) and have to use lead gasoline; for safety sake and to enforce the (outdated) rules
how did they actually find out about it?
internal whistle blower, competitor trying to copy it
It was an engineer at a Virginia university who was doing a study, and found it by accident I believe. Didn't read the article, but it may answer your question.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0RM2D720150923
Better results equals better sales in some cases, in other cases, they just aren't going to pass and have any sort of performance or fuel economy.Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
Big trucks aren't exempt, and the emission equipment on them isn't cheap! I can't remember the model year cut in, but big trucks now require a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) that requires periodic servicing, and reduces fuel mileage. The also require a catalytic converter, and since they don't work the same as the one on your gasoline powered car, the also require a DEF (diesel exhaust fluid) system to inject a urea solution made with high-purity urea and distilled water. Because of the water content, they also require heaters to prevent it from freezing in the winter. None of these systems are cheap, that's the cost of clean(r) air.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Oh,yeah,I'm well aware of the emissions controls on big Diesels,but,they aren't required to do an emission test every second year like a passenger vehicle or light pick up. That's what I meant by "exempt". Sorry for not being crystal clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulR
I agree with Terry. I think this is a pandora's box waiting to be opened. I would think GM is in an uncomfortable place right now - Anyone who markets a clean burning diesel will be under a lot of scrutiny - eg. Chevy Cruze Diesel, Ram 1500 Eco Diesel. Not to mention other car makers that have been lined up waiting to bring clean diesel technology into N.America like GM, Honda, Ford, Mazda (how long have we been waiting for the CX5 diesel). Perhaps we know why everyone is so gun shy to bring diesel tech into N.America.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Many manufacturers like Mercedes, Toyota, GM, have diesels in Europe. Diesel is huge globally.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
agree, but that doesn't really matter. the economical logic is pretty simple: we have to follow what our little neighbour wants; and they get what California wants...Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
see; that's one of the few things we cannot blame the GTA for.
California is worse than the GTA on steroids LOL
My R&D engineer contacts don't like to talk about our (GM) diesel projects or even when they'll be available on the mainstream market or if they even will be anytime soon. Allison Diesels in the pickups have a lot of emission crap on them,even more than my 5.3L gas engine. All they've ever said to me is "Not anytime soon". Maybe,this is why. Time will tell. Now that I've retired,I'm kind of out of the loop. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by RTRonthefly
You have some good information, but it is not entirely accurate. Both the U.S. and Canada purchase used vehicles "off the street" and put them through the standard test procedure. These vehicles must meet the standards, even though they are used, as long as the mileage is below a maximum mileage set by the regulations. They are tested with a standard test fuel because that is the only practical way to isolate the performance of the vehicle from the effects of the fuel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulR