When deer bow hunting in the bush, where I am going to hunt, I have seen some bear signs so I don't feel safe and there is a possibility of bear attack, so is it legal to carry my shotgun just to protect myself for bear or wolf attack?
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When deer bow hunting in the bush, where I am going to hunt, I have seen some bear signs so I don't feel safe and there is a possibility of bear attack, so is it legal to carry my shotgun just to protect myself for bear or wolf attack?
I would say only if there were an open season for deer in which both archery or a shotgun were ok to use.
Citing from a 2014 copy of the regs: "When hunting deer, you may use or carry a firearm of the type permitted for hunting deer at that time in that Wildlife Management Unit (WMU). For example, when hunting deer during a bows-only season, you may use or carry only bow hunting equipment, you may not carry a rifle or shotgun for hunting other species."
Trying to claim the shotgun is for self-protection won't wash.
What I understand from the regulation is that you may not carry a rifle or shotgun for hunting other species, which means it is not allowed for the purpose of hunting not for the purpose of self-protection. However this is my interpretation which may be wrong... But regardless, it is not fun for me when go to the bush and think about bear attack as I have seen some bear signs in the field... So I think I have to choose between either get attack by bears or get attack by COs.
To be honest I think your fear is irrational. The odds of a bear attacking you even if they are around is slim at best. Just get a can of bear spray if you are really worried. For that matter if your bow is capable of killing a deer it is also capable of killing a bear and presumably will already be in your hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Species8472
I think my best bet is bear spray. I don't rely on bow for bear, firstly because using bow needs concentration which is not possible for most people when they are nervous in some situation such as bear attack, secondly, it is just one shot and if you loose it, you are in trouble...
Black Bears don't normally attack unless you cross paths with cubs and a Sow or corner a Bear in a confined area and you just happen to be standing in the escape route. Personally,I don't like Bear spray because there's too many variables,foremost being wind direction and second,what if you get a dud can? Would you bet your life on something made in China?Quote:
Originally Posted by shikarchi
Truth is, at least my version, bears aren't a common threat in the woods. Otherwise a lot of people would be attacked. However, what gun owner doesn't want to carry his favorite rifle when he is in the forest just hoping a 500 lbs boar wants a showdown [emoji845]
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When do you figure the last bear attack was in the area? You've got a better chance of getting t-boned on the way home. Wear your seat belt. You'll be alright.Quote:
Originally Posted by shikarchi
honestly in my opinion I mention the clause of RCMP's "Using Firearm for Wilderness Protection"
Quote:
In general, the only firearms allowed for wilderness protection are non-restricted rifles and shotguns. The following individuals, provided they are Canadian residents and have a licence that allows them to possess restricted firearms, may be authorized to carry a handgun or restricted long gun for wilderness protection:
- licensed professional trappers, and
- individuals who need protection from wild animals while working at their lawful occupation, most often in a remote wilderness location.
if you are not confident with a bow to defend yourself; you can argue your validity using RCMP's clause, however it falls into grey area.
Even if it were legal you might find that having to carry 2 firearms at once gets pretty tiring pretty fast. When I first started trapping I used to carry a rifle or shotgun as well. Didn't take long before I left them at home.
Pretty sure it also states that this is subject to provincial and municipal laws
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Thanks for all responses, I know that bear attack is very rare, but there is still possibility especially when you see bear signs where you are hunting... People have different feeling, for some may not even think about it, some might be a bit concerned and some might be more concerned about bear or other wild animal attacks. It is all about your safety and your feeling when hunting and that should be fun and safe... When I ask if I can carry a shotgun for my protection, it is exactly like an Aribag safety in your car that may never ever be activated, BUT it is there if an accident happened and it saves you against injury and life threatening collisions.. this is exactly like that, just gives you a safe feeling when hunting...You may never use it but you feel safe while hunting...
just bring a gun if you want to... your personal preference.
There's always going to be bears around in the bush pretty well anywhere, regardless of how much sign you see. I agree that your fear has no basis. Thousands of bow hunters go afield every day. Now if we were in grizzly country my attitude would be different no doubt.
Cheers
I recently had a conversation with what I consider to be a very knowledgeable and ethical hunter. He was showing me a nice rifle that he just bought and mentioned that it was light and compact, which is why he bought it. It turned out that these characteristics were very important to him because he carries the rifle with him while bow hunting deer so that he can shoot coyotes, which he sees on a regular basis.
I told him that I was pretty sure that he was not able to carry it while bow hunting for deer because the regulations summary (as quoted above by another poster) made it pretty clear that this was not allowed. He told me that he had asked the MNRF about this and was told it was fine as long as the gun was encased when entering and leaving the hunting location. I didn't get into the details about this (whether there was an open gun season for deer or not), so I don't know if there are other stipulations that he failed to mention to me.
In summary, you should call the MNRF to get a definitive answer.
Lots of bear sign where I hunt; I am very confidant on the slim chance id get attacked by a bear; it would get an arrow through it without an issue. I feel just as lethal with my recurve in the woods as I do with a shotgun...just sayin
No, you can not carry a gun while bow hunting deer during the bow season only, and you can't even have one in your vehicle either.Quote:
Originally Posted by shikarchi
If that's the case, then why is it legal to yote hunt with my .243, during our bows only deer season ?Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Good point rick_iles... people may carry gun in their vehicle in the bow season for different reason. For example, how if someone wants to bow hunt in the bush in the morning, and he would like to go for waterfowl in the afternoon without coming back to home which sometime is pretty far from the site...
If you are hunting deer with a bow during bow season, your gun has to stay home.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
It most certainly is ! We've been yote hunting for years during the archery deer season . What authority are you basing your belief on ?Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
So how if someone is planning for bow hunting in the morning and waterfowl in the afternoon? Can he/she carry a shotgun in their vehicle? As far as shotgun for protection while bow hunting, who is responsible if someone is attacked by a wild animal like bear? Should we as hunters protect ourself with the best strategy? For some people having a bow is enough to handle the situation, but for some (including me) bow is not something that I can rely on when see a big animal like bear.... Regardless of it is rare, but it might be a concern for some of us...
Since when rules are supposed to make sense!Quote:
Originally Posted by shikarchi
Btw, if you had read page #60 of the regulation you will have found your answer. Not that difficult....
Attachment 31465
The operative words there are "when hunting deer". You are still permitted to hunt yotes, or other game with a rifle during an archery only season. Your blanket statement that you can't even have a gun in your vehicle, is inaccurate to say the least.Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
- One of our group member at the winter bow camp got charged hunting yotes with a riffle and deer with a bow as the same time, that was two years ago around Dalrymple.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
- Last weekend around Bearverton, a good friend of mine, and brand new hunter, got caught hunting deer with a bow and carrying real deer urine (not legal), then when the CO check his truck he found his rifle and his shotgun. He did not get charged for any of it, but the CO explained him clearly what he could have been charged with, including having his gun in his vehicle while bow hunting.
I did read that regulation somewhere not too long ago but I can't find it right now, I'll look later.
The OP question was "Can you carry a gun AND a bow while hunting deer during the bow season?Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
The answer is NO.
It seems like you haven't read the OP question, have you?
Again, "when deer hunting" . As long as you are not deer hunting, but hunting other game, like yotes, you can use a firearm. In our area, that's up to and including a .270.
Lol, yes I have read the OP, and you are correct that he can't carry a gun while deer hunting in an archery season. My response was to your blanket statement about the gun in a vehicle. That is not correct for the rationale I have posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
You have more of a chance getting attacked by a big horny Buck than attacked by a bear while deer hunting. If you aren't confident in shooting your bow at a bear, you might want to practice a bit more before you start taking pokes at a deer in the woods.Quote:
Originally Posted by shikarchi
Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
You guys had me confused....for a while,until I realized this was about two different subjects rolled into one. The OP asked if he could carry both archery gear and a firearm at the same time when specifically bow huntingDeer and the answer would be NO. Where I believe the confusion is carrying a firearm during the archery Deer season while hunting another species and the answer,of course,is YES,but,we can't carry archery equipment with us. We may hunt one or the other,but,not both at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
According to the regs, you can't have a rifle in your vehicle on the way to/from bowhunting deer.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Have a look at the first paragraph on page 75 - not a lot of grey area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shikarchi
See I would be more scared of the guy too scared to be in the woods than any chance of a bear attack. Do us all a favour and hunt with a buddy if your that scared. Hopefully with time and experience you'll find the confidence to do it safely on your own.
Even highly trained police officers and soldiers have trouble hitting targets under life-threatening situations. Any hunter who thinks they can easily land an instantly fatal shot with a bow on an attacking bear, possibly with little to no warning, is not being realistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveBates
Quote:
Originally Posted by rf2
This is exactly my point. For me, I can't rely on bow to protect myself against bears, specially when you are nervous. Quite frankly, I don't know my reaction yet if I meet a bear in the middle of a bush...
For my second question, I am not still clear and appreciate to share your opinion, the question is how if I go for bow hunting in the morning and go for waterfowl in the afternoon in different location, am I allowed to carry shotgun (not a rifle) INSIDE my vehicle? Or I should back home and leave my bow and take the shotgun? The problem is that most of the time it is not practical because the distance of the hunting site is too far from the home....
With all due respect,werner,it doesn't say that you may NOT have a rifle "on the way to/from" bowhunting Deer. It says that you can't carry on your person,in a vehicle (road hunting) or boat..... Having a rifle or shotgun encased and locked in a vehicle is quite permissable at all times. Think about it this way. Someone wants to bow hunt an area in the AM and travel to another area in the PM to rifle hunt. Does it make sense that the hunter must travel to his home,exchange equipment then,travel to his other destination? Of course not and that's why the Summary is deliberately vague. The devil's in the details.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
If you read the paragraph you mention, it relates to hunting deer, moose AND bear at the same time. It's a different scenario. Like Trimmer said, it doesn't relate to encased guns in a vehicle.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
I understand that, but, any hunter who goes in the woods and thinks a bear will attack them everytime they're in the bush.......isn't being realistic either...................Quote:
Originally Posted by rf2
A cased shotgun in your vehicle is still in a firearm in your vehicle. I don't see how you can argue that having it cased makes it "not a firearm". I received a verbal warning about this once, and I'll go with that. No arguing its a bad law, but it is there.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Like Trimmer said, that paragraph means carry a firearm on your person, in your truck or boat WHILE hunting deer, moose AND bear at the same time. It says nothing about carrying or using a rifle during archery only seasons to hunt other game.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Again, this is rules if you don't like the answer either don't ask or just do what you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by shikarchi
I wonder the same thing myself. So far I have been very cautious about this, and when I go archery hunting, I only carry archery equipment with me and in the vehicle I use to get to the site. The reason is that the regulations summary to me suggests that this is what is required. I do think it is pretty ridiculous, but it seems to be the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by shikarchi
To get a real answer, you should contact the MNRF. If you get the official answer, please post it here.
Again, you are wrong. If you decide to go bow hunting for deer and the "DEER" rifle or shotgun season is closed, do not have a gun in your vehicle.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Personally, I don't worry about it and will not change my habits but if I get caught I won't be crying here.
I definitely wouldn't be arguing that it's not a firearm,of course it is,but what I would be arguing,most strenuously in Court,is that it was not available,not in my possession while hunting and encased and securely stored as prescribed in law,therefore taking it completely out of the equation. Why the CO even "warned" you doesn't make a lot of sense. I can speak from personal experience (although it's been many moons) that a Justice or Judge wouldn't be too impressed with such a literal interpretation. A charge laid under this premise would very likely be tossed,outright.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
When the Act says "use or carry", it means exactly that. Physically using or physically carrying. It does not mean having it in your vehicle. I can have any legal firearm in my vehicle, properly stored etc, anywhere and any time. If I'm in the bush deer hunting with a bow, my encased rifle in my truck is certainly not being used or carried while deer hunting.Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
You were given a warning because there is no law that states that you cannot store a firearm in your car while you are hunting with your bow.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
If you are bow hunting for deer then you are in pursuit of a deer with a bow, you are not in your vehicle with a rifle.
If you were to be charged for having a rifle in your car during a deer season that is bow only then every single deer hunter who goes up in the Sunday before the hunt will have to be charged as they all have their rifles in their vehicles as they go to the camp. Heck, anyone who shoots their gun to sight it in must be charged as well, pretty much all of Ontario has an open bow season for deer from Oct 1st through at least the end of November, so every single person who hunts or shoots or even has a gun in their vehicle during a bow only season must be charged.
The CO was warning you to not have it out.
This is like being charged with illegal hunting when you are sitting in a diner with camo or orange on, unless you are hunting you are not hunting.
"FirearmsQuote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Big game, including black bears, may only be hunted with a firearm (this includes bows).
If you are hunting deer or moose at the same time you are hunting black bears, you may only use or carry (on your person, in a vehicle or boat) a firearm of the type permitted for deer or moose, as the case may be, at that time in that Wildlife Management Unit (WMU).
Specifications on rifles, shotguns, bows, bolts and arrows that are permitted when hunting black bear can be found on page 24.
"
The summary paragraph states "bears", but the actual law is "anything".
FWIW, I concur.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
edit: Given what PV just posted, on the premise of this applying to any animal and not just bear hunting (I've never hunted bear) I may have to reconsider my position, lol. I completely agree on a sensible level with RI. If I'm hunting a long distance from where I'm lodging or maybe sleeping in the truck as my "camp", I'll have my bow for hunting and my shotgun stowed for an optional grouse hunt. I believe there should be changes to this section prescribing the potentially offensive firearm being excepted if encased and trigger locked.
Once again.....it says "use or carry"....on your person or vehicle or boat....dissected, it says, use a gun, or carry it physically or in your truck or boat WHILE hunting for deer, moose or bear....a gun stored in your truck, encased, is neither used or carried !Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
That paragraph simply says, if you are hunting bears and deer and moose at the same time, you have to use or carry a firearm that is legal for moose and deer. It says nothing about storing a gun in your truck...
AIt is illegal to hunt from a vehicle or use a vehicle to hunt, so, if I'm travelling from one place to another, have a gun encased and am not "hunting" from or with my vehicle, having the gun is not illegal. If you wish to say it is, then it would be illegal to have the bow there as well because I'd be using the vehicle to hunt. Rick Iles has it right from what I see.Quote:
cased shotgun in your vehicle is still in a firearm in your vehicle. I don't see how you can argue that having it cased makes it "not a firearm". I received a verbal warning about this once, and I'll go with that. No arguing its a bad law, but it is there.
And....you have to be "hunting for bears"....and either deer or moose at the same time. Remember that what is in the summary is just that...a summary.Quote:
That paragraph simply says, if you are hunting bears and deer and moose at the same time, you have to use or carry a firearm that is legal for moose and deer. It says nothing about storing a gun in your truck...
This might just be nitpicking but just to be clear, with regards to the Firearms Act, a firearm left in an unattended vehicle is not considered to be in storage. It is considered to be in transportation.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
https://nfa.ca/resource-items/storag...cc-s-861-casesQuote:
Regulations 10(2), 11(d), 12(e), and 14(2) all speak of "transportation" in "an unattended vehicle."
Obviously, that terminology means that a firearm in a vehicle does not come under the "storage" regulations simply because the vehicle is not moving and is "unattended." It still comes under the "transportation" regulations -- no matter how long it has been sitting there.
There is no point in time set in the law when that situation shifts from "transportation" to "storage." Therefore, at any time, the accused could well be convinced that he is in perfect compliance with the "transportation" regulations, and that that is all that is required of him. He then lacks mens rea, the "guilty mind."
Therefore, when the Crown charges that "storage" in a vehicle contravenes one of the "storage" regulations, the Crown has laid the wrong charge. The accused has not committed that offence. He is innocent of that charge.
There might be a feeling that a firearm "in an unattended vehicle" becomes a "stored" firearm at some point in time. That can be fought by pointing out that the accused reasonably concluded that the Regulations did authorize him to do what he did, and can be read in that way by a reasonable person. Therefore, under the rule of statutory interpretation that the statute must always be read in the way most favorable to the accused, the accused is innocent.
As well, the accused -- by thinking that he is in perfect compliance with one Regulation -- is innocent of violating another, by virtue of his lack of mens rea.
It's important to distinguish between the Firearms Act and the Ontario hunting regulations (Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act).
You are not "storing the firearm in your truck". You are transporting it (even if the truck is stopped). Transporting is pretty close to "carrying" as stated in the summary.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
"use or carry (on your person, in a vehicle or boat) a firearm of the type permitted for deer or moose"
But do whatever you like and write the laws however you want. It'll all be fine until you meet up with a CO - which I have.
i'm not sure why everyone thinks this is a terrible law. it makes perfect sense to me. it's immediate proof of intent for an officer on the scene. if you only have bow gear on you, there is no guess work for the officer, you obviously only used a bow. but if you have a bow and another (or several) firearms in the truck, he can't definitively know what you used (let's assume you're loading a deer into your truck when the officer arrives.) it's a simple case of making scenarios black and white for officers.
we don't want officers to have to use their judgement, speculate, or theorize grey areas. this law makes it black and white, yes or no. it's a great law. sure it restricts you slightly as a hunter, but it's a fair trade off, getting to hunt is a privilege, i'm personally willing to give up some convenience in order to KNOW i'm legal, and in order for the officers to know definitively as well.
this sort of law exists in the fishing world as well.
yep, you're spot on. it's a clear law. not sure why anyone is fighting it...Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
i've created a new market! call me companies, i'm full of genius ideas like this
we have over-under 22-410s 22-12s and so on. would an over under xbow-30-06 be legal? haha solves everyones problem here! it's only 1 firearm technically? haha probably exists already in the states somewhere...
^^^^^^^^^^^THIS!!^^^^^^^^^^^^ Common sense,at last.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Common sense or a CO on a happy day.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
it's like jaywalking, if it's obviously safe you're never going to get ticketed, but the fact remains, on paper, it is against the law. COs are reasonable human beings, not robots.
Ok, so I live in an area where deer hunting is allowed, I can shoot them behind my house, right in my yard.Quote:
Originally Posted by flytyermiller
If I take my shotgun into the backyard during a bow season for deer can I be charged with hunting deer with a shotgun? See how stupid this discussion is? What about my 22LR, can I legally shoot a pop can in my backyard? Can I legally take it outside of my residence in a case and put it into my car without being charged for illegally hunting deer during a bow only season?
You need to be hunting to be considered hunting.
You can hunt coyotes with a centerfire rifle during a bow only season for deer. You can hunt ducks with a shotgun during a bow only season for deer. You can hunt turkeys in the morning with your shotgun loaded with #4,5, or 6 shot then go back to your vehicle, switch to your rifle and leave your shotgun in the car and go hunt groundhogs with a rifle during a turkey season.
Absolutely,but,you'll still never convince some people.LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Fox
this conversation is with regards to the guns plus a bow, in a hunting situation, the gun alone (as in your example) is not an issue obviously. re-read all the posts. my comments are within the context of this conversation. yours is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
There are 2 threads in one here, the first is from the OP, it asks if he can have a gun when bow hunting with him, that is a simple answer and the answer is no in Ontario based on the regulations.Quote:
Originally Posted by flytyermiller
The other thread that came from this was the idea that a gun in your vehicle while you are in the bush hunting with a bow would make you illegal, which makes no sense at all. It is like the one where the CO gives you a warning for not having an orange hat when you are riding an ATV to your hunting spot or in your truck, sorry, you cannot legally hunt from a vehicle so there is no way that they can tag you with no hunter orange hat while on an ATV as you cannot be hunting.
You cannot have the gun on you while hunting unless it is on you while hunting, end of story.
The OP, no, you cannot legally have a gun with you when hunting for deer during an open season that is bow only. If you are hunting coyotes during an open season for deer that is bow only then have at it with a shotgun and a rifle, you are not deer hunting so you can small game hunt with anything as long as you meet any municipal bylaws or other caliber restrictions as the case may be.
None of those cases show much intelligence. The paragraph of the summary deals with travelling between your home and your hunting location in a vehicle or boat during bow season with both a rifle/shotgun and a bow. It's a law that doesn't make much sense, but it is the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
You are absolutely right.....poor terminology on my part !Quote:
Originally Posted by awndray
Just to verify, I contacted MNRF. It is perfectly legal to hunt with and/or transport my .243 during our bows only deer season, for the purposes of coyote hunting.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
What Rick said. I believe the paragraph in the summary is deliberately vague to give the impression that travelling with both archery and firearms during a bows only season is illegal. It is quite clearly NOT. Actively hunting (walking throught the woods, sitting on a watch or in a boat) with both is absolutely illegal and that is what the paragraph attempts to convey. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Well, nothing new here! This is absolutely not what we are arguing about......Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
It went off the rails when you posted that the OP couldn't even have a gun in his vehicle while bow hunting deer. I responded by asking if that were the case, how is it legal to yote hunt with a rifle during archery season. You in turn, posted that it was illegal........and off the rails it went ! LolQuote:
Originally Posted by seabast
Good discussion though. Other issues were raised that can be discussed on another thread, like "hunting" from a vehicle !
The problem is that there is no law that you have proven to be a law, you wrote about carrying a firearm while hunting, since you cannot hunt from a vehicle how can you be hunting while your firearm is in your vehicle?Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
My examples don't show intelligence? You have got to be kidding me. I have a firearm, I am moving it around my yard, my yard is an area for which game can be found, therefore under your logic I will be going against the hunting laws if I have a rifle in my yard during a bow only season for deer. I would also under your logic be against the law for hunting with a rifle while I take my firearm from my house to my car in a case and then go down the road in my car as I am carrying it.
Like I said earlier, with your logic anyone driving into their camp on the Sunday before the season in Ontario for the first week of November should have all of their gear taken away as they are all traveling to their hunting location for the purpose of hunting with a rifle during a bow only season.
If you are traveling to a location to hunt with a bow and you only take your bow out and carry it to your stand then you are fine. Then you go back to your vehicle and carry your rifle to your coyote hunting stand. No where here have you ever carried your rifle while deer hunting or carried your rifle to your deer hunting location, it has stayed in your vehicle.
With the way you guys talk on here sometimes I cannot believe it is even legal to fart in the woods without being charged for chasing the game (hunting as written in the regulations).
e.g. Is shooting a deer leaning on the tailgate or hood of a truck legal or not?Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
And if it is illegal, what about shooting targets?
Fox, care to start a thread about "hunting" from a vehicle ? There is no law making it illegal.
Nope, this is not what we are saying. We all know that you can carry a gun or a riffle to hunt yotes, ducks, and so on during the deer bow season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
What we are saying is, if you are in your tree stand with a bow to hunt deer, you are not allowed to have a gun or a riffle in your vehicle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
If I recall correctly, it would take into consideration the definition of a roadway and if a foot or feet are on the ground(indicating no way it could be considered shooting from a MV.
I researched this a while back WRT target shooting using the truck tailgate as a bench and sitting on a stool.
Do you want to discuss this on this thread, off topic, or start a new one ?Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
No, you can't have a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle. That includes target shooting....
That's what I thought too......Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Actually, the section makes no mention of a roadway. It also says vehicle, not motor vehicle, making it illegal to ride a bicycle with a loaded gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot
Page 30 of the regulations summary, a vehicle cannot be used for chasing, pursuing, harrassing, capturing, injuring or killing any wildlife and no loaded firearm can be in or on a vehicle except a canoe or a boat that is being paddled with no motor attached.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Please read back a bit, I stated that the OP cannot take both his bow and his gun to his stand so that he can hunt both deer with a bow and something else or even as protection as this is stated as illegal in the regulations.Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
Werner has stated that you cannot even legally have a gun in your vehicle when you are headed out to hunt with a bow, even if you are planning to hunt the morning with your bow and then going back to your vehicle to get your shotgun to go out for grouse in the middle of the day.
Quite right ! The definition of hunting includes more activity than actually using the vehicle to do those things you mentioned. A lot of guys hunting yotes from their trucks, or "road hunting" deer and moose would be liable for charges if it were illegal to "hunt" from a vehicle..technically speaking of course. Read the definition of hunting in the Act.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I'm not saying...the regs are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
and you're 100% correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
also regarding hunting from a vehicle, i'll muddy this thread a little more. don't forget about disabled permits. just because you see someone firing from an atvs doesn't mean they're necessarily illegal, i hunt with guys that can shoot from a vehicle.
So how could you be charged for something that the CO thinks you may do ?? bowhunting in the bush and having a rifle in your trunk. He cant charge you because he thinks you may use the rifle on a deer. If he sees you using the rifle on a deer then you would be fooked proper.
Cop cant charge you for hanging outside a variety store cause he thinks you may rob it.???
Agreed . A gun on your person with a bow while bowhunting deer will get you charged .
[QUOTE=seabast;938279]Nope, this is not what we are saying. We all know that you can carry a gun or a riffle to hunt yotes, ducks, and so on during the deer bow season.
What we are saying is, if you are in your tree stand with a bow to hunt deer, you are not allowed to have a gun or a riffle in your vehicle.[/QUOTE]
I know, I brought this up and this is exactly what I mentioned again to you.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
The summary you have been leaning on, are not the Regulations. Please post the Section in the FWCA and/or Regulations to the FWCA that support your position. I'll make it easy.....note the words "use" and "carry". In order to be an offence, you have to be caught doing one of the two. Nothing about being in a vehicle.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
70 - O.Reg 665/98
Carry illegal firearm during deer hunt
Set Fine: $300.00
Total Payable: $365.00
A person who hunts deer, elk or moose shall not use or carry a firearm unless the firearm is of a class specified for use during the open season applicable to the species, person and area in Ontario Regulation 670/98 (Open Seasons — Wildlife).
Read the rules. i have dealt with COs as much or more than anyone here since i'm an outfitter with a hunting and fishing outpost that keeps 30-40 guests per week in the north.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter John
i only have the fishing regs on me to quote, but the CO definition are identical regardless. They have full authority to arrest you based on what they think you're doing or may do. (key on the final point here for proof)
"When carrying out their duties, conservation officers may:
• Stop and inspect a vehicle, boat or aircraft
• Ask questions relevant to the inspection
• Inspect buildings or other places
• Require assistance to complete inspections
• Enter onto private property to perform their duties
• Search with a warrant
• Search without a warrant in circumstances requiring immediate action
• Seize items related to an offence
• Arrest anyone they believe has committed, is committing, or is aboutto commit an offence."
it will then be incumbent upon you to prove your innocence. also, in this case, if you are bow hunting and have a gun in your car, he doesn't have to assume anything, you already broke a law.
The exception for disabled hunters is to allow loaded firearms on and discharged from a vehicle.Quote:
Originally Posted by flytyermiller
No, what was meant was the arrest authority, not charge authority. You can be arrested if the officer has reasonable and probable grounds to believe you are about to commit an offence where such arrest authority pertains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter John
Fish and WildlifeConservation Act, 1997Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
S1 “hunting” includes,
(a)lying in wait for, searching for, being on thetrail of, pursuing, chasing or shooting at wildlife, whether or not thewildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed, or
(b)capturing or harassing wildlife,
S24 Vehicles, boatsand aircraft, use for hunting, etc.
Vehicles
24. (1) Aperson shall not use a vehicle for the purpose of killing, injuring, capturing,harassing, pursuing or chasing wildlife.
Boats
(2)A person shall not use a boat for the purpose of killing, injuring, capturing,harassing, pursuing or chasing wildlife.
Therefore a vehicle or boat can be used to lie in waitfor, search for, or be on the trail of wildlife, which is considered to behunting.
When it comes to asking C.O.'s their interpretation of the laws, you may find that even they differ in their interpretations of what the sections mean, especially in regards to tough ones to get your mind around like this issue. At the end of the day, it is the court which will determine what is right and wrong with regards to the black and white and intent od the law.
I know, I was simply implying for the forthcoming questions about a vehicle likely being on a road or roadway in order to have arrived there to shoot.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
But your point is well taken.
So finally, what I understand is that it is illegal to have both bow and a shotgun in your car during bow only season, regardless if it is during bow only season or not.. If I am wrong please correct me.. However what Fox and rick iles said make more sense for me... Because for example, I might carrying my bow to a local store to get it fixed and at the same time have my shotgun in my trunk for waterfowl hunting in the afternoon...
As far as my very first question, so choosing between get attached by bear or COs, my only option is to choose to get attacked by bear as it is not allowed to have both of them in your hands at the same time....
Also for those of you who don't know the meaning of my username which is Shikarchi or Shekarchi, it is a Persian word and the meaning is Hunter. So I would rather to refer me as Shikarchi instead of OP..-:)
Thank you all for sharing your ideas. This is ultimately about having a safe and fun and legal experience while hunting...
OP means "original post". Nothing against your user name. Just to clarify ! In the future, if you need information regarding the laws, it's best to call the MNRF, and get it from an authority !Quote:
Originally Posted by shikarchi
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
I know rick... I thought my username seems to be weird that's why people refer me as OP.-:)
Thank you...
No worries ! Good luck with your hunting !Quote:
Originally Posted by shikarchi
We need the Picard double face palmothethis thread since it has gone in many different directions. Let's look at this convoluted mess from a different angle. Lets say I am small game hunting with a shotgun, the archery deer season is also open and I have a deer tag and a small game liscence in my pocket. I decide to carry my crossbow over my shoulder in case I encounter a deer. All legal ?.. No?. If I have shot larger than #2 I will be screwed yes?? If I only have #7 I will be fine, no ?.
Couple years ago during the archery season (december 10th ) I was hunting a property with my buddy, In the morning we both had crossbows, we saw a few deer and quite a few coyotes, we met up for lunch and chatted about the plan for the afternoon, we decided that buddy would stay in his tree and continue to hunt for deer.
It was decided I would sit at the other end of the property and attempt to take a yote or 2 with my 22 mag that was in the trunk of my car all day. Just so happens a co came by and he concluded we were not doing anything wrong.. i had a small game liscence that allowed me to shoot coyotes, buddy had a deer tag that allowed him to take a deer... no where was it insinuated that I was going to shoot a deer with the 22 mag.
Yes, you were good to go !Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter John
Quote:
17. (1) A person who isin an area usually inhabited by wildlife or who is on the way to or from anarea usually inhabited by wildlife shall not,
(a)have a loaded firearm in or on a conveyance or discharge a firearm from aconveyance, except if,
(i) the conveyance is a boat that is not amotorboat, or
(ii) the conveyance is a motorboat and theperson is hunting migratory birds in accordance with the regulations under the MigratoryBirds Convention Act, 1994 (Canada);
Vehicles,boats and aircraft, use for hunting, etc.
Vehicles
24. (1) A person shall not use a vehicle for the purpose of killing, injuring,capturing, harassing, pursuing or chasing wildlife.
Boats
(2) A person shall not use a boat for the purpose of killing,injuring, capturing, harassing, pursuing or chasing wildlife.
Aircraft
(3) A person shall not use an aircraft while hunting.
69. The classes of firearm set out in column 2 ofthe Table to this section, each consisting of the firearms set out in column 3,are prescribed for the purpose of this Regulation and Ontario Regulation 670/98(Open Seasons — Wildlife) as the classes of firearm that a person may use orcarry to hunt deer, elk or moose.
TABLE
Items Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Species Class of Firearm Content of Class 1. Moose, Elk, Deer Class 1 Bow 2. Moose, Elk, Deer Class 2 Bow, or muzzle-loading gun 3. Deer Class 3 Bow, shotgun, or muzzle-loading gun 4. Moose, Elk, Deer Class 4 Rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading gun 5. Deer Class 5 Muzzle-loading gun 6. Deer Class 6 Shotgun, or muzzle-loading gun 7. Moose, Elk, Deer Class 7 Bow, rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading gun 70. A personwho hunts deer, elk or moose shall not use or carry a firearm unless thefirearm is of a class specified for use during the open season applicable tothe species, person and area in Ontario Regulation 670/98 (Open Seasons — Wildlife). O. Reg.581/99, s. 4; O. Reg. 529/10, s. 11.O. Reg.581/99, s. 4; O. Reg. 320/06, s. 2; O. Reg. 529/10,s. 10; O. Reg. 49/11, s. 17.
deerfamily. O. Reg. 325/10, s. 1.
75. A person shall not use a rifle known as arim-fire rifle, a shotgun smaller than 20 gauge when loaded with shot or anyshotgun loaded with shot smaller than SG or number one buck for hunting biggame. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 75.
77. (1) A person hunting small game,when in an area during an open season in the area for a species of big game,shall not possess or use,
(a)a rifle of greater muzzle energy than 400 foot-pounds; or
(b)shells loaded with ball or shot larger than number two shot. O. Reg.49/11, s. 18.
(2) Despite clause (1) (b), a holder of asmall game licence, when in an area during an open season in the area for aspecies of big game, may possess and use,
(a) in the case of shot made of steel, shotthat is not larger than triple BBB steel shot; or
(b) in the case of shot made of bismuth,shot that is not larger than double BB bismuthshot. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 77 (2).
Above is the legislation from the FWCA and the regs that appear to apply to this thread.
In my opinion reading the regs, it is not illegal to have multiple types of firearms in a vehicle at one time.
Carrying a firearm in the field is subject to the season and class of firearm allowed. During the "bows only" season for deer, when hunting deer, you can only carry a bow while hunting deer. Your other firearm would have to be at home or in the vehicle. When you decide to switch and hunt coyote or rabbits, take the bow back to the vehicle and hunt for the other game. Nothing would stop you from shooting a coyote with the bow while deer hunting as long as you were properly licensed for them.
When hunting deer in an area where the class of firearm allowed is class 7, which includes all types of firearms, you could carry one of each at the same time. Might get a little cumbersome though. So lets say I was carrying a rifle for deer, I could carry a shotgun for birds (because shotguns are a class of firearm allowed for deer) as long as I didn't use prohibited shot for shooting the deer. If I had a slug with me I cold transition to the slug and use it for the deer.
Keep in mind that you sound like a nice enough guy and I'm not trying to come down on you here. Your fear of a bear attack while in the woods, while not uncommon, is about at rational as a fear of being struck by lightning while in your tree stand. The chances of a bear attack are so remote that the list of things that are more likely to happen to you while in the bush, or on your way there and back for that matter should have you shaking in your boots. Driving to the bush, climbing in and out of the tree stand, exerting yourself, weather, falling tree limbs, etc., are things probably far more likely to kill or hurt you than a bear attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by shikarchi
You sound like you're pretty new to hunting and your fear of bears in the bush will subside over time. Buy a can of bear spray and keep it in your hand the entire time if it gives you peace of mind. It's far less cumbersome than carrying another firearm, and (arguably) quicker to incapacitate a bear than a gun shot. A bear wounded by a bullet or shot can put up a good fight for a while before dying. The chances of making an instant kill shot on a bear while you're fearing for your life are slim. On the other hand, a bear that all of a sudden finds his face, eyes and nose on fire and is unable to breathe will probably give up the fight in short order.
Good luck, keep at it, and hopefully you get past your fear. For what it's worth, I'm deathly afraid of being bitten/eaten by sharks while swimming in the ocean. If it was socially acceptable to swim with one of those rods that you push into the shark's snout and it fires a twelve gauge round at point blank, I would swim with one.
Illegal to hunt from a vehicle? I don't think you have that entirely right. Having a loaded firearm in a vehicle or shooting from a vehicle is obviously a big problem. But driving bush roads and old logging roads with a rifle in the seat beside you and a full magazine in your pocket while looking for moose in clearcuts is fine. See a legal moose, get out of the truck, step off the road (if it's actually a "road"), load your rifle, shoot the moose. Heck, while you're looking for moose, keep a shotgun and a box of bird shot in the seat with you and take any grouse you want as well. "Hunting", wouldn't you say?Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
If you were to ask a CO up north what the general road hunting guidelines are, many will glady take you through a little tutorial. Sort of a "road hunting 101" where they will outline which roads you have to step off of before you load your gun and shoot and which road you can treat as if they are not a road at all. It wasn't our thing, we always shot our moose while sitting, walking or calling but I wouldn't have hesitated to get out of the truck and shoot a legal moose standing in a cut staring at you while on the drive out.
So, have "road hunters" been breaking the law all this time while the law turns a blind eye?
Agreed GW11. I was more meaning actually having the loaded gun in the vehicle and shooting from it in what I posted above.
Now above I posted the definition of hunting from the Act. Travelling in a vehicle on bush roads is a grey area in my opinion with regards to the way the law is written (never easy). In the first part, hunting includes searching for which lots of hunters do on bush roads. So if we are driving down the road looking for moose, deer, partridge or whatever with the intent to kill one....we are illegal by the letter of the law.Quote:
“hunting” includes,
(a) lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of, pursuing, chasing or shooting at wildlife, whether or not the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed, or
(b) capturing or harassing wildlife,
except that “hunting” does not include,
(c) trapping, or
(d) lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of or pursuing wildlife for a purpose other than attempting to kill, injure, capture or harass it, unless the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed as a result,
and “hunt” and “hunter” have corresponding meanings; (“chasse”, “chasser”, “chasseur”)
The bottom section allows us to use a vehicle to search for game as long as the intention is to not kill, capture, etc. A very fine line here.
Hopefully the intention of the law is what prevails because if I travel in my vehicle looking for chickens or moose to kill, see one, stop and get out, load my gun, get off the road and kill one....I may have used the vehicle to hunt. I'm not saying this should be enforced necessarily but point out the black and white of the law. If the black and white prevailed...we'd all have to walk to our hunting grounds.
You are right. When driving bush roads, logging roads, etc., you are "hunting" given the broad definition. You are "searching for" game, and if you park and watch a cut from your truck, you are "searching for" and "laying in wait for " game. You are meeting the technical definition of hunting. I am aware of charges being laid for not meeting the hunter orange requirements when "hunting" from a truck. Obviously the officer was enforcing the strict technical definition of "hunting". No charges were laid for hunting from a vehicle as no loaded firearms were in or on the vehicle. Lots of guys "hunt" all week, strictly by road hunting from their truck. Not my idea of hunting, but perfectly legal. We "hunt " coyotes all winter by driving back roads "searching for" yotes. We sit in the trucks "laying in wait for" a yote to bail out of a pushed bush. No loaded firearms, but are still "hunting" from a vehicle.Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
I think this poor horse has been beaten to death !!!!
Thanks GW11 for the clarifications. Actually I am not new in hunting. I have been hunting since 2005 in Ontario and before that in home country before immigrating to Canada. I had no fear of bears and I didn't even think about that but it started since about a few months ago there was a bear in the middle of Newmarket in a very populated area and I was thinking that they are around even close to major cities . Also once I saw some bear signs where I hunt, I was more concerned as I have no idea what my reaction will be if I encounter a bear in the middle of bush...Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11