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Just starting out in the world of muzzle loaders. I am going to use Blackhorn 209 with my new gun. I have not made it to the range yet, but I did test the powder by pouring 100 grains measured by volume into a scale and was a little surprised to see it weighed 74 grains by weight. I checked the BH209 bottle and all data it refers to says "by volume" beside it. Am I correct in assuming everything in the black powder world is by volume?
In the case of both traditional and in-line MLs volumetric measure (gram) is used. Rifles that use metallic cartridges, BP charges are measured in grains.Quote:
Originally Posted by dilly
BH209 load data here (includes a chart for metallic cartridges) - http://www.blackhorn209.com/load-data/
Well, I'll be darned. The chart pretty much confirms what I found. Thanks Sharps. I guess I will not worry about weights and go by volume.
The volumetric loads are also in grains, not grams.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharps4570
If you use grams instead of grains, make sure you wear real good hearing protection...its going to be loud.
I noticed last year that Randy Wakeman when using BlackHorn209 he loads by weight in his reviews of the Ultimate.
Not sure why he uses weight vs volumetric with that powder. I don't remember him doing that with T7.
The variation of weight (grams or grain doesn't matter as long as you do the conversion) of the same volume might only change slightly if you use the same can of powder but it might change quite a bit if you compare two different cans of the same powder.
Back in August I contacted Lee Precision about their Lee Dipper and accurate loads. They replied to me that "The powder manufacturer have a 16% tolerance in the density of their powders. So you can have variance of weight from volumes of the same powder. Use a scale to verify".
So in practice, if I oad let say 250 cartridges with the same can of powder X and hit the target at 2" high at 100 yards, and with the next can of the same powder I shot 3" high, that could be why.
Same with case volume, if someone is looking for best accuracy he should buy his cases by batches and keep them together.It increase the odds of having cases of the same internal volume.
If you are looking for best accuracy, you should weight your loads.
Absolutely! I stand corrected. Admittedly, I was under the impression that the powder measure tubes (defined by volume) applicable for MLs was a conversion of grains = grams .......Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie
1 Gram = 15.4323584 Grains
1 Grain = 0.06479891 Grams
LOL! That was actually a somewhat dangerous statement on my part.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
I have just printed this info. Do you know how hard it is to find this....
1 Gram = 15.4323584 Grains
1 Grain = 0.06479891 Grams
LOL! That was actually a somewhat dangerous statement on my part.
[/QUOTE]
454 grams per pound
7000 grains per pound
Those haven't changed since I was in highschool.
Know those and you can figure out the rest.
this is what got me a bit confused in the first place. He was loading something like 90 grains by weight. That could be substantially more if you were going by volume...in fact, with BH, a lot more. Or maybe he was measuring by volume and confirming on a scale he was getting equal loads...Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I found an article on his views of this.
I turns out, it appears he does it for accuracy for comparative testing. He does a lot of reviews and using powder by weight is more consistence.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_volumetric.htm
Quote:
Ian McMurchy published actual weight of 100 gr. volumetric Goex FFg as 101.3 grains, 100 gr. volumetric Goex FFFg as 101.6 grains. (Page 81, Modern Muzzleloading For Today's Whitetails.)
Mr. McMurchy didn’t stop there;
Pyrodex Select (which is a very large granulation size) weighs in at 63.9 grains,
Pyrodex RS at 72.5,
Pryrodex P at 73.0,
Pyrodex pellets at 74.2,
Arco at 94.7,
Clean Shot at 85.1, and
Quick Shots at 65.5 grains
Personally I use the same measurement tool for all my loading, so the consistency is with it. Basically I'm always using the same 'amount' whatever it happens to be, when I work up a load for a specific bullet and my scope adjustments.
That's what I'm going to do too Mike. I'm using my lexan powder measure and using the volume markings as the measure. It drops close to the same weight each time (albeit somewhat different numbers) and that will have to do. Going to start at 85grains by volume and go up until I lose accuracy. I hope to dial in before or at around 100grains.
There is another factor to take into account when you use black powder, excess amounts do not contribute to the bullet's ballistics once they leave the muzzle without being burnt. As you increase your charge levels you might want to check to see if you are achieving complete combustion. If you are not, you are simply wasting powder. You can do this by spreading some newsprint out in front of your muzzle and shooting over it. When you start to find grains of partially burn powder on the newsprint, you have exceed the burning level of your barrel length. Back off a bit, adding more powder will not improve your ballistic, to do that you will either have to increase the weight of your projectile or the length of your barrel. If you can locate a copy of the 1974 Guns & Ammo Annual there is a chart on the .40 cal Dixie long rifle the shows the effects of barrel length and powder charge levels on velocity. The one entry, on the chart, that comes to mind was a rifle with a 48" barrel and a 120 grains of black powder knocking back something over 2400 fps.
You don'y stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
Just as an after thought, seeing volume measurements being thrown about, the traditional black powder measuring unit for muzzle loading and black powder breech loading shotgun use to be drams. A dram contains 27.34 grains. For a number years following the switch to smokeless powder, they use to compare the velocity of a smokeless powder charge, to the velocity of a black powder charge measured in drams. They would label the box with a Dram Equivalent value. The challenge, if you try loading a 3 3/4 dram black powder charge under an 1 1/4 oz. of lead shot in a 12 gauge, 2 3/4" shotshell, is to find room for wads. In that respect smokeless powder has sure spoiled us. Of course, the volume eater in today's shotshell loads, is not black powder but steel shot.
That's interesting you mentioned the grains left behind after the shot. I was testing over snow and noticed after my first session there was what looked like pepper all over the snow in front of my station. I figured it was granuals of burned powder. Not sure if it was unburned powder as I didn't closely inspect it, but I did record increases in muzzle velocity every time I went up in powder.
I may buy a DRAM measure for my new .58 cal Musketoon, I have a load chart for the ML that uses drams, so it may be quirky to switch my units of measure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
You will see some increase in ML velocity, but at a point you will start to get diminishing returns. The barrels are too short to burn all the powder, so the remainder gets blown out. I found it quite noticeable at about 120 gr of T7Quote:
Originally Posted by dilly
You might experience a bit of velocity increase because of the back pressure created by the drag of the longer powder column. In a way it would be like increasing the weight of your projectile, but was there also an increase in the amount of pepper effect over the show? The granuals of burned powder you were seeing were likely what was left of the powder that wasn't fully burnt when it left the muzzle and was toasted by the muzzle flash. Did you actually chrome your velocity, to evaluate the increase? The increase may not have been worth the amount of extra powder you were wasting to achieve it.
I just had a thought, work out the volume of your base charge, where you are not seeing the burnt powder granuals. Now increase the volume of the powder, by adding measured amounts of corn meal or Cream of Wheat, and see if you still experience the increases in velocity, you spoke of.
I use Cream of Wheat(COW) in my cast bullet ammunition, it a filler that occupies the empty space in the cartridge case and helps stop gases escaping around the bullet base (causing leading), it also has the added benefit of raising chamber pressure which increase velocity. The whole of the barrel of your muzzle loader, not just the powder chamber, is similar to a cartridge case, so you should experience the similar pressure increase ( kind of equivalent to chamber pressure in a breech loading firearm), and consequently an increases in velocity. That way you won't be wasting powder to do it.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut.
I did use a chrony. The velocity increases were balanced and fairly even incrementally as I bumped up 5gr at a time. I'm happy at 100 grains.
my other post shows the gun going off in a video.There is no flame coming out of the barrel. Would that suggest there is complete burn in the barrel? I know in our short barrelled guns at work, there is quite a bit of flash. We were told that's because the powder isn't used to its full potential. Doesn't matter in CQB.
Forgive my ignorance as I have no real experience with loose powder. I bought a super cheap scale, weighed out 70 grains of Blackhorn and called it a day. Now I see most powder is measured by volume by most people. I can't see how this would be more accurate.... is it more convenient? Thanks!
How did you arrive at 70 grains by weight as your load? Most recipes I saw called for amount by volume.Quote:
Originally Posted by sullyy
it is more convenient to do it by volume if you carry a powder measure rather than a scale in the field or at the range.
You can choice either way to measure your powder, but most people use volumetric measures. The link I posted back in post #12 explains the difference.
I ended up using a brass sliding measure that isn't even marked....I just kept trying settings till I found what worked best and just set it at the that spot for loading. I eventually measure it and found out it provided 80grs of T7.
Got it thanks.
"How did you arrive at 70 grains by weight as your load?"
I used to shoot 100 grains of 777 (2 pellets) so started with that. According to the blackhorn site 100 grains volume is 70 grains by weight. So I weighed out a dozen 70 grain charges and at 65 yards the first 3 shots were touching on the paper. I shot a deer at 25 yards a week later and haven't shot it since. I might have to change loads when (if) I start shooting further, but so far so good!
Makes total sense sullyy. I checked and my scale said 100gr volume was 74gr by weight with BH 209.
I'm guessing because they're two totally different powder compositions. As in one's BP sub and one's a deriv of smokelessQuote:
Originally Posted by MikePal