License Sales Down

Saw these numbers in the OOD (Jan/Feb), thought it might be interesting for those that don't subscribe;

We had a discussion on here last year about Hunter Recruitment, these numbers seem to support the continuing decline across the province.

The quote from the MNRF Senior Media Relations Officer Jolanta Kowalski "We suspect it is a combination of factors including demographics, the economy, the cost of licenses and hunting, tags (availability and allocation) seasons and other things"

Moose: (residents)

2013...112,754
2014...106,901
2015...95,023

Moose; (non-residents)

2013...1,889
2014...1,746
2015...1,557

Deer (residents)

2013...183,701
2014...186,357
2015...181,495

Deer (non-residents)

2013...5,257
2014...3,582
2015...2,871

Deer (farmers)

2013...4,287
2014...4,301
2015...3,804

What about numbers for small game, and migratory?

As for hunter recruitment, lots of the new ones want the Xbox experience. Not interested in learning or developing the skills needed for bushcraft, and hunting.

Fuel prices rising and harder to get tags equals less moose hunters.


Less deer hunters? Perhaps harder and harder to get access to private land in the south?

The cost in time and money for a Moose hunt is getting up there especially for the far north west.Private land permission simply harder to get.

I sometimes think the commercialization of the products has affected the outdoor pastime as well. Whenever I talk to others & try to get them into the outdoors they always say it costs too much money. Or how some will tell others they spent thousands of dollars to get into this pastime. I always say basics first. Then you have the latest generations expectations & instant gratification. If you aren't filling your tag it isn't fun or worth it. Trying to tell them it's more gets me the comment, I can go buy a steak, fish fillet etc at the grocery store for a lot cheaper!:sad:

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Originally Posted by robster

I sometimes think the commercialization of the products has affected the outdoor pastime as well. Whenever I talk to others & try to get them into the outdoors they always say it costs too much money. Or how some will tell others they spent thousands of dollars to get into this pastime. I always say basics first. Then you have the latest generations expectations & instant gratification. If you aren't filling your tag it isn't fun or worth it. Trying to tell them it's more gets me the comment, I can go buy a steak, fish fillet etc at the grocery store for a lot cheaper!:sad:

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Another fine point. You look at 90% of hunting shows on tv that say they need all the gear they carry on a hunt in order to be successful. You add up everything and some of these guys will have $2000-$10 000 of gear with them for a day/weekend hunt. I have seen countless new hunters looking at shows and magazines thinking they need all this gear. But yet they are frustrated and thinking of quitting hunting after going on 3-4 hunts and not shooting anything.

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Originally Posted by TheProvider00

Fuel prices rising and harder to get tags equals less moose hunters.


Less deer hunters? Perhaps harder and harder to get access to private land in the south?

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

The cost in time and money for a Moose hunt is getting up there especially for the far north west.Private land permission simply harder to get.

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Originally Posted by robster

I sometimes think the commercialization of the products has affected the outdoor pastime as well. Whenever I talk to others & try to get them into the outdoors they always say it costs too much money. Or how some will tell others they spent thousands of dollars to get into this pastime. I always say basics first. Then you have the latest generations expectations & instant gratification. If you aren't filling your tag it isn't fun or worth it. Trying to tell them it's more gets me the comment, I can go buy a steak, fish fillet etc at the grocery store for a lot cheaper!:sad:

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If you ( they ) have your H1 and can afford $25.15 + tax, I can teach you (them) just about everything they need to know to hunt deer/moose/bear. Any animals that are hunted do not each need a differant set of skills. The same foundational skills are needed no matter what you hunt. If one does not have those skills, there is not enough money in the world, or any gear that will make you a hunter.

They all want to start at the top and are not interested in hunting small game. But I can tell you picking off rats in a chicken barn or rolling birds off the trusses in the cattle sheds, without damaging the building or injuries to livestock, will make you a better hunter and a superior shot in a few months then years of going to hunt camp for a week.

Ok guys go ahead and flame me for saying it..:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

If you ( they ) have your H1 and can afford $25.15 + tax, I can teach you (them) just about everything they need to know to hunt deer/moose/bear. Any animals that are hunted do not each need a differant set of skills. The same foundational skills are needed no matter what you hunt. If one does not have those skills, there is not enough money in the world, or any gear that will make you a hunter.

They all want to start at the top and are not interested in hunting small game. But I can tell you picking off rats in a chicken barn or rolling birds off the trusses in the cattle sheds, without damaging the building or injuries to livestock, will make you a better hunter and a superior shot in a few months then years of going to hunt camp for a week.

Ok guys go ahead and flame me for saying it..:rolleyes:

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Why didn't you shorten this down and say "I think they need more mentors". LOL

I think the major factor in the drop of Moose licenses is simply there are too few tags available. I think this also has a negative impact on deer hunting numbers as well, as many Moose hunting camps would also hunt deer.
Overall, it would be nice to see the figures for all licenses to see how this compares to the overall totals. If overall small game licenses are down, then the trickle down would impact all types of hunting.
Saying all this, mentoring new hunters can be one of the most rewarding things you will ever do.

It's very difficult to get land permission and crown land is difficult to hunt without "issues". As the private permissions disappear the crowding on crown land in Southern Ontario increases. Not a quality hunting experience on crown land in S Ontario IMO.

I also think the success ratefor deer has decreased steadily over the past 2-4 years and I think guys get discouraged very easily if they weren't raised as hunters. I can't believe how many people do the cost of hunting calculation and compare it to grocery store meat costs.

I maybe selfish but I wouldn't mind a few less hunters in my area.

Over harvest, winter and winter.... Less game . Last year I had a better spot and the owners changed their mind.. This year my spot was quite difficult to even see a deer and I only bought one tag...Bad winters and I decided to limit they amount of tags I purchased... I filled my turkey and deer tag and did not punch my bear tag... Last year I filled a turkey tag, 3 deer tags and a bear tag...if I get access to better properties I will buy more tags... Access to great spots is 99 percent of the game in Ontario. Friend of my party hunted and shot 4 deer with a bow....if you have access to great spots there is still plenty of turkey and deer.

Wow, over a 100,000 moose hunters....never dreamed there where that many. Any idea what the numbers were in the 80's? Sure makes you think........
Numbers being down now because Duck Dynasty isn't all that popular anymore :)

I can't believe that it was only a 5k drop in moose hunters last year. .. figured ALOT less people would be going

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by fratri

Wow, over a 100,000 moose hunters....never dreamed there where that many. Any idea what the numbers were in the 80's? Sure makes you think........
Numbers being down now because Duck Dynasty isn't all that popular anymore :)

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The drastic drop in moose hunters (licenses) applying could have something to do with restrictions implemented to the tag transfer process as well. There were stories of groups applying with numbers to get by the min requirements stacking up P1 applicants only to transfer a tag to someone who was actually going hunting. Wives, girlfriends, guys who stopped but still put their license in for the draw benefitting a group guaranteed tag.

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Originally Posted by robster

The drastic drop in moose hunters (licenses) applying could have something to do with restrictions implemented to the tag transfer process as well. There were stories of groups applying with numbers to get by the min requirements stacking up P1 applicants only to transfer a tag to someone who was actually going hunting. Wives, girlfriends, guys who stopped but still put their license in for the draw benefitting a group guaranteed tag.

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There's that,of course,but,mostly I think it's the economy. Hunting isn't cheap anymore and there's a lot more unemployed or under-employed people who simply can't afford to go,a lot more than is being reported and recorded by the main stream media and politicians. Equipment costs,lodging and license costs have gone stratospheric. A lot of folks are being left behind. Another indicator is the exponential rise in poaching,regulatory tinkering and lack of enforcement. Most people know that I've always been a "glass half full" kind of guy,but,over the last two years since I've been retired and able to get out a lot more,it's been a real eye opener.

Moose: (residents)

2013...112,754
2014...106,901
2015...95,023

Deer (residents)

2013...183,701
2014...186,357
2015...181,495

From pure statistical point of view it is clear the moose and the Non resident hunter numbers are down , but can not help but NOT see a decline in deer hunters.183-186-181 ,so we are down from both previous years,but there is no trend. As we see-2014 even produced Increase in numbers. No decline-at least YET. Would need 1-2 more years of going down(or see backwards several years, not just 2) to see a trend. Moose-down since the opportunities are much lower then used to be, and likely will keep going down even more........deer, will see in few years. Just my 2 cents.

I am not challenging though neither the OP nor anyone above........

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Why didn't you shorten this down and say "I think they need more mentors". LOL

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That would not have been a true picture of the problem with new hunters. They all want to be mentored and start their hunting on trophy moose, deer, and bears, because they think real hunting is just like the games in the arcades. Point and shoot and enter your name in the top score list.

If we could find a mentor for each and everyone of them, how many do you think would say no thanks if the mentor was only going to take them small game hunting to start. Just out for a walk to shoot rabbits and squirrels.

I would guess well over 70% of them would bow out.

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Originally Posted by DanO

I can't believe how many people do the cost of hunting calculation and compare it to grocery store meat costs.

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You have to remember how much the costs have gone up compared to the wages. With the decrease in success rates, increase in cost of living and less than that cost of living increase in wages I can see why a lot of people are doing a cost analysis. The majority of people in the province are not longer on the farms and have to travel to hunt, they then need a vehicle that can get their game home and in most cases they have to pay to have it processed as lots of residences do not have the facilities for home butchering.

When you look at the cost of a license to hunt, the cost of a rifle or shotgun, the cost of the courses, the vehicle, the time away from work, for a lot of people it comes down to dollars and cents because they do not have another option. Unlike in Europe hunt in Canada has generally been something that was done by farmers and lower income groups to fill their freezers, with the way things are going we are switching to a pay to play situation where only the rich will be part of the hunting clubs (where crown land does not exist) and all of the rest of us will be left out to dry.

I wonder what the turkey data is, Seems like there is more and more turkey hunters in my area every year.

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Originally Posted by huntitall

I wonder what the turkey data is

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These are the Harvest Report numbers for a few past years;

2011; 8,560
2013; 8,272
2015; 6,912

hunting is becoming a rich mans game.Young to be hunters just married and maybe with children cannot afford this moose and deer trips. License fees,gas, motels and equipment have gone up so much.EVERYTHING they sell at bass pro these days is gortex this and that and the pricing is out of this world for the average guy. Every time we buy something new,2 years down the road they invent something better so we obligated to buy it.Permission and places to hunt are harder to find.I duck hunt lake st. clair ,it is so crowded out there that it makes you want to stay home.

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Originally Posted by fishing1

hunting is becoming a rich mans game.Young to be hunters just married and maybe with children cannot afford this moose and deer trips. License fees,gas, motels and equipment have gone up so much.EVERYTHING they sell at bass pro these days is gortex this and that and the pricing is out of this world for the average guy. Every time we buy something new,2 years down the road they invent something better so we obligated to buy it.Permission and places to hunt are harder to find.I duck hunt lake st. clair ,it is so crowded out there that it makes you want to stay home.

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Hunting can be as cheap or as expensive as you want it to be.
We have guys at the camp that haven't spent a buck on hunting equipment in the last 10 years.

A lot of talk about a lack of new hunters and about the cost of hunting. The obvious other point is that the baby boom is aging.

How many old guys are giving up, because of failing health or other reasons?

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Hunting can be as cheap or as expensive as you want it to be.
We have guys at the camp that haven't spent a buck on hunting equipment in the last 10 years.

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Ain't that the truth....One guy is still working on a box of shells he bought in 1985 :)

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Originally Posted by fishing1

hunting is becoming a rich mans game.Young to be hunters just married and maybe with children cannot afford this moose and deer trips. License fees,gas, motels and equipment have gone up so much.EVERYTHING they sell at bass pro these days is gortex this and that and the pricing is out of this world for the average guy. Every time we buy something new,2 years down the road they invent something better so we obligated to buy it.Permission and places to hunt are harder to find.I duck hunt lake st. clair ,it is so crowded out there that it makes you want to stay home.

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All the expensive "must have" gear that's sold by Bass Pro and the like are only designed to separate people from their hard-earned cash. It's pure marketing hype and it's all BS. It's a trap that I caution all new hunters and anglers to avoid,at all costs. There's lots of good,warm and dry gear out there that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Milsurp and Canadian Tire are my go-to sources for almost everything related to outdoors gear.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Ain't that the truth....One guy is still working on a box of shells he bought in 1985 :)

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It currently costs me $15 to $16 for 500 rounds....so I can afford to "miss" a few times for each bird I take..:goodstuff:

Maybe people need to think about how they do things..:joker:

Burning air is of course cheaper then powder..
Anyone care to try?

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Originally Posted by welsh

A lot of talk about a lack of new hunters and about the cost of hunting. The obvious other point is that the baby boom is aging.

How many old guys are giving up, because of failing health or other reasons?

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Last year when we were discussing recruitment it was found that 55% of the guys taking the Hunting courses were over 50...

Which makes sense...more time, more money...

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Thanks for posting....I was actually surprised when I was looking up the info here that there is a huge percentage (55%) of the new recruits that are older. I would have assumed that most would have been youth.

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In Ontario right now 20% of the people taking hunter education courses are women. Another roughly 25% are youth. Last year we put 25,000 new hunters through the hunter education program. You can do the math—you're probably better at it than I am—but 45% of those 25,000 were either young people or women.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

All the expensive "must have" gear that's sold by Bass Pro and the like are only designed to separate people from their hard-earned cash. It's pure marketing hype and it's all BS. It's a trap that I caution all new hunters and anglers to avoid,at all costs. There's lots of good,warm and dry gear out there that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Milsurp and Canadian Tire are my go-to sources for almost everything related to outdoors gear.

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There is a limit on how "cheap" you can go too. There is also a learning curve for matching gear to the type of hunting and the conditions...A heavy coat will keep you nice and warm on a cool morning in September, but becomes a heavy PIA to carry around in the pack the rest of the day till you need it for that last 20 walking back to the truck. A thermal under shirt and a water proof lightly insulated pull over works almost as well for the hour you need the extra warmth in the morning and evening and is a lot easier to stuff in the day pack and carry.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Ain't that the truth....One guy is still working on a box of shells he bought in 1985 :)

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We had one of the old timers - his last year was 1990, 80 years old then, that had a box of dominion shells from the early 1950's.
He told me it was his third box of ammo - he'd bought his rifle and two boxes of ammo just after ww II finished.

I think some find it expensive because they believe or are told they need to spend hundreds or thousands on gear. Most of my gear is 20 to 30 years old. Some I have made or repaired over the years. I don't have fancy out doors clothes or state of the art equipment. It has only been the past 3 years out of 20 that I purchase some new stuff. My tackle box for fishing is held together with duct tape.
My hunter's orange is older the my 24 year old daughter, I don't have a game camera as I have to make sure I pay for things like swimming lessons, cubs and cub camp for my kid's.

Hunting doesn't need to be expensive. You need a gun, ammo and a license to start.

I think everybody has a reason why they aren't out more. Money, free time, free time for hunting partners or a loss of hunting partner, hunting success the previous years, loss of land, health, not wanting to give the OMNR more money for nothing, lack of interest, frustration with hunting, bad experience last year, ect.

I'm mostly stuck in the no free time category.

Deer numbers seem stable, but I wonder how many guys gave up the ghost on Moose, and instead bought Deer where before they didn't. Thinking of the people who only go hunting for a week/two each year where it's been an either or, not both. So masking declines in Deer numbers.

Reasons are likely many. Not sure I buy the "expense" theories though.
1) It doesn't have to be.
2) Like anything else, people have to decide on their priorities. If you can afford to drop 400 on a scope, you can afford good clothing. If you can afford to go golfing every week May through Sept, you can afford to go hunting, etc, etc.

Do buy into theories about access and success. I myself don't get out anywhere near as much as I might like, and the biggest hurdle is access.

Societal changes: People are becoming very disconnected from nature and the outdoors. While there has been a surge in recent years in outdoor activities, most of those I think are in area's like kayaking, Biking, rock climbing, etc. Fair weather stuff.

Small game vs Big game.
I myself would like to do a lot more small game (Rabbit, Squirrel, Grouse)..Access.

Just to clarify one aspect...the license sales seem to include the 'additional' tags sold. So keep in mind that some years the increases in Deer License sales might will coincide with more tags being available, not more hunters hunting.

Some gleaned numbers...
2013: An additional 26,215 deer seals went on sale today for Ontario-resident hunters.
2014: a total of 17,545 additional deer seals will be available in participating WMUs. M
2015: This year a total of 15,155 additional deer seals will be available.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Last year when we were discussing recruitment it was found that 55% of the guys taking the Hunting courses were over 50...

Which makes sense...more time, more money...

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Entirely makes sense. Yes, hunting can be cheap if you make it cheap, but even cheap hunting is still expensive. My perspective on "cheap" now is much different than when I was 20.

When we look at declining licence sales we are probably seeing a combination of cost and older guys giving it up.

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Originally Posted by welsh

When we look at declining license sales we are probably seeing a combination of cost and older guys giving it up.

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or (more likely) a combination of costs and young guys not picking up the sport....

There are 4 family camps close to me and they all have pretty much folded...a few of the old 'Founders' have died off and no new members came in to replace them. Most of the original 'older' guys that were at the camp when I joined are are still there, but the younger ones have not been coming regulatory for the past few years. It was 14 hunters at one time, we are down to three Old Guys now and one younger family member (SIL).

Mike, the source of the data. Out of curiosity does it contain the success numbers?
2013: tags issued, tags filled?

I know for myself, and some "new" hunters I know. The biggest issue/hurdle is access, not success as others have mentioned. Know 2 women who have taken up hunting in the past 3 years and both speak about how hard it is to get out. And for them there's the "old boys club" as well.

A lot obviously has to do with geographical location, but how often do we read threads about "locals" who treat newcomers poorly, or old clubs who have been there years, or.....

Its odd.
On one hand, one thread we talk about the future of hunting, and antis etc, etc.
On the other, we ourselves make it hard for people to get started.

It has a lot to do with the attention span of today's "have it now" society. Deer numbers are back to what they were 20 years ago. People are finding that they actually have to hunt deer rather than just go shoot one. It's the same with just about everything. If it takes longer than a click of the mouse, people are losing interest. Look at golf for example. More people are leaving golf than are taking it up. It's too hard. Everyone wants to play like they see it on TV rather than learn how. I bet it's the same way with learning to play a musical instrument.

The expensive angle is relative. I know plenty of folks who spend a small fortune every year on dinner at The Keg, new cars, cell phones (you have to have the latest one), 50" screens in 4 different rooms, tablets, the latest and greatest of everything for their kids... the list goes on and on. Then they moan and whine about how expensive hunting has become.

The internet has turned us into an impatient bunch.

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Originally Posted by JBen

Small game vs Big game.
I myself would like to do a lot more small game (Rabbit, Squirrel, Grouse)..Access.

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I have dairy farms and beef farms over run with birds...care to test your sharpshooting skills? My most successful place is INSIDE the city limits but the birds eat a steady diet of grains and seeds from the livestock feed.
You think your a good shot. Can you hit a starling on a beam 20 feet above the floor with a single pellet? Care to try?

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Originally Posted by GW11

It has a lot to do with the attention span of today's "have it now" society.

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They call it 'instant gratification'...and you're right.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

. Can you hit a starling on a beam 20 feet above the floor with a single pellet? Care to try?

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As a matter of fact...used to cull free range chickens in the barn yard with an air rifle. It had to be a head shot or it wouldn't kill them.

Used a peep sight on my Daisy, 20 ft easy. Same with rats in the grain bin..head shots. Used to spend all summer doing it. That's how we learned to shoot. Didn't put a scope on a rifle till I was 45 and lost my near vision.

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Originally Posted by JBen

Mike, the source of the data. Out of curiosity does it contain the success numbers?
2013: tags issued, tags filled?

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Unfortunately JBen.. because there is little mandatory reporting of Deer hunting....and according to some posters on this forum, little interest in filling out the voluntary questionnaires, the MNR doesn't know the success rates, at least in numbers that would provide usable data.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

...
The quote from the MNRF Senior Media Relations Officer Jolanta Kowalski "We suspect it is a combination of factors including demographics, the economy, the cost of licenses and hunting, tags (availability and allocation) seasons and other things"
...

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Fact is that with the exception of resident deer tags, everything is significantly down. The question is what is the MNRF going to do? Certainly quite a few things beyond their control (demographics, economy), but some things can be fixed in the long run, unfortunately they would require significant investment and change (moose population).

So I wonder what are those that can be fixed in the short run; e.g.
a) extended seasons (e.g. rifle/open season),
b) lowering the cost of licenses (or combining licences; i.e. buy greatly discounted 3 year license with small game, 2 bear/a, 1 deer/a, 1 turkey/a, 1 moose/3a etc.),
c) simplification of regulations (they don't need to deter the general public anylonger; hunter # are on the decline).

Now is the time to start initiatives; some US jurisdictions have done so successfully.
We should not forget that our population is on the rise, so in relative terms, hunter decline is more dramatic as the absolute numbers suggest.

Would love to take you up Snowwalker. :)

Deer numbers (hunters and deer)...who knows "really". We hunt 47. Last year (2014), there were noticeably fewer deer and a lot fewer "road hunters" as the locals call them, if I recall there were just 2 camps..This year, the road in was filled with roadside camps and almost no deer. :)

Wonder about the point Snowwalker raised. Im on a bit of a mission to do more hunting/fishing. Theres 365 days in a year and getting out for Deer/Bear and the odd WF outing...It's all squeezed in to just a few months.
Rabbit
Grouse (other upland)
partridge now
Squirrel
yet for some reason (access??) nowhere near as popular

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Unfortunately JBen.. because there is little mandatory reporting of Deer hunting....and according to some posters on this forum, little interest in filling out the voluntary questionnaires, the MNR doesn't know the success rates, at least in numbers that would provide usable data.

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That's one thing I don't understand - we b!tch that the MNR doesn't know what they are doing, but we don't want to give them more information.

The one thing hunter surveys don't take into account is the effect of temperature, weather (and moon cycle - if you believe that stuff) has on the number of deer seen and taken. But if the MNR had long term numbers on deer observations and harvest, they could factor it in. Computers can do wonders with numbers.

Regarding the OMNRF getting information from hunters, this year they've started doing mandatory questionnaires for the Southern On controlled hunt, a step in the right direction for PROPER management. It really should be expanded to all of Ontario for all large game species, not just black bear and elk. With all the issues the OMNRF is having with moose populations you have to wonder why they are only doing mandatory surveys in 5 WMUs. You would think it would be the cheapest approach considering they've got no money to fly around counting moose.

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Originally Posted by Fox

You have to remember how much the costs have gone up compared to the wages. With the decrease in success rates, increase in cost of living and less than that cost of living increase in wages I can see why a lot of people are doing a cost analysis. The majority of people in the province are not longer on the farms and have to travel to hunt, they then need a vehicle that can get their game home and in most cases they have to pay to have it processed as lots of residences do not have the facilities for home butchering.

When you look at the cost of a license to hunt, the cost of a rifle or shotgun, the cost of the courses, the vehicle, the time away from work, for a lot of people it comes down to dollars and cents because they do not have another option. Unlike in Europe hunt in Canada has generally been something that was done by farmers and lower income groups to fill their freezers, with the way things are going we are switching to a pay to play situation where only the rich will be part of the hunting clubs (where crown land does not exist) and all of the rest of us will be left out to dry.

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I couldn't agree more Fox! I just assumed most hunters know that it's not cheaper to hunt your food (in most cases). I'd done the same calculations for fishing.

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Originally Posted by DanO

I couldn't agree more Fox! I just assumed most hunters know that it's not cheaper to hunt your food (in most cases). I'd done the same calculations for fishing.

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Back in my grandpas day it was cheaper, it can still be cheaper but not for a lot of hunting. I actually had this chat with a friend of mine, deer hunting is still not horrible, if you get 1 deer for 4 people then you still end up with meat at about $2/lb based on the license cost, assuming your guns and gear are part of you hobby and not included. If you just look at the license cost though a turkey coming in at 40% yield would give you 8lbs of meat for a 20lb bird and run you almost $4/lb, if you get a jake or a fall hen you are going even higher. We were chatting about it because waterfowl has not changed much in years, we can go out hunting for geese and shoot 5 a day every day from Sept 25th to Dec 31st, not including the early season. $17 for migratory birds and we don't have to pay a fee to Wynne to get it. I think we have close to 100lbs of goose meat in the freezer to mix with pork for sausage, not including what was eaten throughout the year, 17 cents a pound for meat, you can hunt for food if you hunt migratory birds.

One reason why I share similar thoughts to Snowwalker Fox.
Deer hunts are getting expensive if you don't have land. Small game might ( I say might because I haven't done it myself) be a good way to get out hunting throughout the year and put some meat in the freezer. Next fall I'm hoping life will allow me to get up north for a weekend of grouse and walleye fishing. If I can find area's to hunt rabbit and squirrel, all the better.

Is it too expensive though? Well depends on what other "priorities" a person has.
Even if one plays economical golf courses, say $50 a round.
30 rounds over spring/summer/fall is $3,000, not mentioning incidentals (balls beer hamburgers)

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I just assumed most hunters know that it's not cheaper to hunt your food (in most cases).

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Unfortunately if most hunters think they are hunting (or fishing) to accumulate cheap meat they will be disappointed more often than not.

Personally, I hunt to spend time in and enjoy the great outdoors, relax, associate with my family and friends who enjoy the same sport/hobby as I do, watch wildlife, etc. If I harvest an animal or fish as a result....bonus. If not .....I still had a successful, enjoyable day in the outdoors. The cost doesn't matter to me when I put it in that perspective. If it was about the meat (which I happen to enjoy)....I'd quit and go to the store.

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Originally Posted by redd foxx

Unfortunately if most hunters think they are hunting (or fishing) to accumulate cheap meat they will be disappointed more often than not.

Personally, I hunt to spend time in and enjoy the great outdoors, relax, associate with my family and friends who enjoy the same sport/hobby as I do, watch wildlife, etc. If I harvest an animal or fish as a result....bonus. If not .....I still had a successful, enjoyable day in the outdoors. The cost doesn't matter to me when I put it in that perspective. If it was about the meat (which I happen to enjoy)....I'd quit and go to the store.

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Exactly! That's why it's called hunting and not shopping.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

One reason why I share similar thoughts to Snowwalker Fox.
Deer hunts are getting expensive if you don't have land. Small game might ( I say might because I haven't done it myself) be a good way to get out hunting throughout the year and put some meat in the freezer. Next fall I'm hoping life will allow me to get up north for a weekend of grouse and walleye fishing. If I can find area's to hunt rabbit and squirrel, all the better.

Is it too expensive though? Well depends on what other "priorities" a person has.
Even if one plays economical golf courses, say $50 a round.
30 rounds over spring/summer/fall is $3,000, not mentioning incidentals (balls beer hamburgers)

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What I have been saying is that the expense of hunting is keeping people from going, there are a lot of people who will not shell out $50 to go golfing. I remember when my family had trouble just putting food on the table, dad would take a week of holidays to go hunting but that was the only vacation he ever had, never a trip south or a cruise, he would take us to see family and that was it, if we did not have a place to sleep for free and a place to cook food then we could not afford to go. This is now the reality for a lot more people, this economy is hurting families and not just the ones you would expect.

I look at people buying $2500 scopes for their guns and bad mouthing the economy brands but that scope cost was the entire grocery budget for our household growing up, it is not something that everyone has money for no matter what their priorities are and things are only getting more expensive with a lot less value for the experience.

If you had to make a choice of a deer license or putting food on your families table for a week I really hope you would buy that food and not go deer hunting.

Along these lines, I know for certain that the number of people shooting for sustenance in northern Ontario is going up and I would never call that poaching.

Tag prices have gone up. Food prices have gone up. Fuel prices were high until recently. We lost a member of our deer group due to the rising costs of everyday items. Factor in (for my group) the antlerless tag allocation for WMU 46 went from 2,000 licenses in 2013 to 400 licenses for 2014 a 2015 it made a big difference. I have never won the lottery for a antlerless license, but my friend has every year. So we party hunt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

What I have been saying is that the expense of hunting is keeping people from going, there are a lot of people who will not shell out $50 to go golfing. I remember when my family had trouble just putting food on the table, dad would take a week of holidays to go hunting but that was the only vacation he ever had, never a trip south or a cruise, he would take us to see family and that was it, if we did not have a place to sleep for free and a place to cook food then we could not afford to go. This is now the reality for a lot more people, this economy is hurting families and not just the ones you would expect.

I look at people buying $2500 scopes for their guns and bad mouthing the economy brands but that scope cost was the entire grocery budget for our household growing up, it is not something that everyone has money for no matter what their priorities are and things are only getting more expensive with a lot less value for the experience.

If you had to make a choice of a deer license or putting food on your families table for a week I really hope you would buy that food and not go deer hunting.

Along these lines, I know for certain that the number of people shooting for sustenance in northern Ontario is going up and I would never call that poaching.

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Well most ( I hope all), of us would call that poaching, because that is what it is , poaching. What would you call it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Well most ( I hope all), of us would call that poaching, because that is what it is , poaching. What would you call it?

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Feeding your family, that is what I would call it.

If someone shoots a deer so that their kids don't go to school hungry I think it it sustenance and is ok in my eyes. People who go out and shoot something for the antlers, leave the deer in the bush or pile the meat on top of their full freezer, I call that poaching.

Well you would be wrong. Why did they shoot a deer, is a racoon, skunk, squirrel , rabbit, rat, crow, not good enough if you are hungry ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Well you would be wrong. Why did they shoot a deer, is a racoon, skunk, squirrel , rabbit, rat, crow, not good enough if you are hungry ?

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Whatever they see will work, shooting a rabbit in July would be illegal too, snaring a rabbit south of the French and Mattawa rivers would also be illegal.

I am glad you use such a blanket statement, I hope that you are never in a situation that you do not have food to eat.

I think most people can separate poaching for food from recreational poaching.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

I look at people buying $2500 scopes for their guns and bad mouthing the economy brands but that scope cost was the entire grocery budget for our household growing up, it is not something that everyone has money for no matter what their priorities are ....

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Absolutely. It's easy to talk about priorities when you already have the gear.

Small game hunting is pretty cheap. Big game hunting, not so much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

I think most people can separate poaching for food from recreational poaching.

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Absolutely, for sure, but I would question a selective harvest when you are supposedly doing it because you are hungry. If they say they have no money for food, have a couple of deer in the garage but no racoons or rats.......? How long do you let them poach for food, a one off, or indefinitely?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Well you would be wrong. Why did they shoot a deer, is a racoon, skunk, squirrel , rabbit, rat, crow, not good enough if you are hungry ?

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I am sure there are alot of those going in the pot too. Many deer that got shot likely were ones that people came across well hunting small game for food.

I know people that have susistance licenses and 70 to 80 % of the animals they shot and snare/trap are small game..

I find that hunters with all the toys,new guns every few years,good gear,ATV,s don,t mind spending on these but if you suggest to them to invest in their own land and camp they suddenly cant afford it.

So I have my own place but don,t have all of the above,its all about priorities people set.But I can tell you I have benefited in a big way after my first purchase.

The hunters that complain about lack of places to hunt are the very one,s spending on other priorities.

Having come from Europe I can tell you Canadians do not place a high enough value on hunting as they have never really had to pay for it.

Example http://www.monarchsport.com/prices/ Red Deer.

Small game http://www.thefield.co.uk/shooting/s...00-a-day-22424

So $800.00 gets you a rought shoot for a day,pheasants,rabbits.Thats a deal BTW.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

Feeding your family, that is what I would call it.

If someone shoots a deer so that their kids don't go to school hungry I think it it sustenance and is ok in my eyes. People who go out and shoot something for the antlers, leave the deer in the bush or pile the meat on top of their full freezer, I call that poaching.

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Poaching is poaching... Wonder if a CO would take your side. Stealing is stealing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pbonura

Poaching is poaching... Wonder if a CO would take your side. Stealing is stealing.

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If I didn't know where my family's next meal might come from, what a CO may or may not have to say about it would be the least of my worries.

That being said, I think we're getting off track...lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

I have dairy farms and beef farms over run with birds...care to test your sharpshooting skills? My most successful place is INSIDE the city limits but the birds eat a steady diet of grains and seeds from the livestock feed.
You think your a good shot. Can you hit a starling on a beam 20 feet above the floor with a single pellet? Care to try?

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Quite often as there are a few dairy barns around it's no great feat, how about English Sparrows and Cow Birds at 54 ft. off the bird feeders , it's not that hard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

[/B]Quite often as there are a few dairy barns around it's no great feat, how about English Sparrows and Cow Birds at 54 ft. off the bird feeders , it's not that hard.

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When should I have your cot and some supper ready, I assume you would like to come up and have some fun. :thumbup:
Of course there are only Air rifles allowed in the barns, and around the farm..:shades:

Yes poaching is poaching. However there are times it has been done to literaly feed ones families and sometimes still is in the North.

My Grandfather in NS poached Lobster, Deer and small game to feed his family in the 50's and 60's. Back then it was a matter of survival and some places further north it still is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pbonura

Poaching is poaching... Wonder if a CO would take your side. Stealing is stealing.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pbonura

Poaching is poaching... Wonder if a CO would take your side. Stealing is stealing.

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Yes,poaching is poaching,but,I'm proud to know CO's and LEO's that would definitely turn a blind eye when someone took a Deer or a couple of Turkeys when he knew the person didn't have two nickles to rub together for groceries,was out of work for a long time with benefits exhausted and kids to feed. It's one thing to be educated,graduate at the top of one's class and be hired as a CO or LEO and be an excellent officer,but,they also need to understand "compassion" for their fellow man. After all,we're not talking bank robbery or murder,right?

Sure the numbers are down and they will keep going down . Unless you were raised and brought up with this great sport it will never increase. Mentors are everything ,now its all about playstation and how big your tv is. Its hard to mentor because of the trust issues i dont think too many of u would take me out to one of your prime hunting spot would u?...probably not likewise. The old guys are done so , the spots are dwindling and its not easy to harvest a deer duck moose rabbit etc..Times have changed and if its not engrained in you this is what happens.Forget the # do your part and and enjoy this great passion while you can and enjoy the great outdoors!!

Hunting license sells are going down just about everywhere - as an example - here in Pa. there were 1,013866 license hunters in 2004 - in 2014 there were 94,3836 - 70,000 less - another interesting thing - resident senior licenses in 04 were 37,714 - in 14 they were 18,407 - this shows you that the old-timers are dying off or no longer going because of health reasons and not being replaced - from what I read the biggest reason is that the younger generation is more interested in others things then siting in a tree on a cold morning - the Pa. commission is doing all it can to get younger kids interested in hunting but it is a hard sell -

The bad thing is as the number of hunters goes down so does the influence that hunters have on overall state of hunting - we are fortunate here in Pa. because we have a lot of public land to hunt and a long drive to hunt isn't necessary -

PensNylvania's hunter numbers being down has largely to do with the deer numbers being way, way, way, way, way down due to the controversial whitetail management there. Controversial enough that there's even a book about it. http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/0-271-02885-8.html

Very little to do with cost or demographics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

Yes poaching is poaching. However there are times it has been done to literaly feed ones families and sometimes still is in the North.

My Grandfather in NS poached Lobster, Deer and small game to feed his family in the 50's and 60's. Back then it was a matter of survival and some places further north it still is.

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If you have to steal to feed your family......MOVE.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

If you have to steal to feed your family......MOVE.

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If you can afford to.

To me, the thing to remember on this particular controversy is that the deer doesn't care why or how you killed it. An animal removed from the breeding population is an animal removed from the breeding population regardless of who removed it, how they removed it, or why they removed it. And fish and game laws are there to protect breeding populations.

That's the consideration that needs to be topmost in the CO's mind. Maybe numbers are up and the population can sustain the pressure; you might turn a blind eye. But if numbers are crashing ... you don't have the right to steal from the grocery store to feed your family, either.

The guy poaching to feed his family is less morally culpable, sure. But the population dynamics don't care.

Obviously if they can't afford food, then they can't afford to live there either. Just do what other unemployed in the great north do , move to TO where the taxpayers of that great city will give you a place to live and the address of the closest food bank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Obviously if they can't afford food, then they can't afford to live there either. Just do what other unemployed in the great north do , move to TO where the taxpayers of that great city will give you a place to live and the address of the closest food bank.

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Talk to the people of Smooth Rock Falls about that, people flattened their houses because there was nobody to buy them and the government still got tax money on vacant homes but not nearly as much on a flat piece of ground.

Nothing like giving up a hard roof over your head for a cardboard box.

So you move to an area, or are born in an area that can't support you or your family, how long do so stay in an area that will not support you? Should you not move to an area that will provide for you, and yours or do you stay there forever. Poaching an animal to feed your family should be a one off, not a lifelong commitment until employment comes back to your area.

You really lack a knowledge of this country don't you.

And Yeah a lot of those Union guy's should take that advice instead of looking for government handouts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

If you have to steal to feed your family......MOVE.

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W.T.H. are you talking about?...... I am just saying if you have to continually poach fish and game to feed your family you should move to an area with employment , not steal our game, forever...... Do you see anything wrong with that statement?

But it's cheaper to live out in the sticks than it is to live in Toronto, by a country mile. And if your prospects in Toronto amount to minimum wage, you won't be much better off.

None of these things are as clear cut as they appear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by welsh

But it's cheaper to live out in the sticks than it is to live in Toronto, by a country mile. And if your prospects in Toronto amount to minimum wage, you won't be much better off.

None of these things are as clear cut as they appear.

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Not that cheap to live in the sticks, first you MUST have wheels.Gas is more expensive in a lot of places,hydro is more expensive.
Gas heating for homes is none existent in many,many, rural areas.Internet,phone, ,more expensive.Your food is more expensive and you have to travel to get it.

Your housing costs are lower is you can afford your own place,but steady,regular employment is harder to find.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Gas is more expensive in a lot of places,hydro is more expensive.
Gas heating for homes is none existent in many,many, rural areas.Internet,phone, ,more expensive.Your food is more expensive and you have to travel to get it.

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What....
Gas is $0.3-0.5 cheaper here than the city
Hydro cost's the same
We don't pay for water
People burn propane (Gas) instead of piped in gas
I pay the same for internet/phone service as the townies...even have Fiber optic service.
Food more expensive ? Same stores here as in the city and I bet you drive to get your groceries too...

Have any more unfounded notions ?

At the risk of posting "on track" (sorry!), I believe the statement in OOD is likely the correct one - older participants (fewer every year), lots of $$$ to participate (never mind gear or licence fees, have you looked at food + hotel/motel or B&B prices lately in Ontario?), lack of time, unavailability of land, etc.

On a personal basis, I didn't get out to the deer camp this year, for the first time in ages. Reasons: primarily, other commitments at work (I travel), but even if that wasn't the issue, times are tight, job security is dicey or so it seems so I, like others, decided to hunker down and save. Retail sales are down, reflective of these factors (reported, IIRC, that 2015 yearly sales were down approx 3% +/- overall). Increased hunting licence fees. Most of all, as mentioned elsewhere, lack of available land.

I used to hunt on relative's farms 70 Km north of Kitchener about an hour from my home, lots of deer eating/browsing crop stubble and harvest drops in the old days prior to shotgun only season. None of the kids (my cousins) wanted to keep farming, so the land was sold and the new folks aren't partial to hunters on the land (their right, and I respect them for it even though I mourn the loss). Now I need to drive close to 300 Km to the Perth area to join up with a friend's hunt camp. Great times, but I yearn for something within a 2 hour drive, not a 4 hour drive.

BTW - I am not unhappy if I don't bag a deer, or bear. A big part of what I go out for is the chance to enjoy nature, the sights/sounds/smells, and forget about the world for a week. If I fill my tag, it's a bonus.

OK - back off the rails LOL.

O.N.G.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

W.T.H. are you talking about?...... I am just saying if you have to continually poach fish and game to feed your family you should move to an area with employment , not steal our game, forever...... Do you see anything wrong with that statement?

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Steal "your" game? Buddy, if I was starving, the animal I harvest to feed myself would be "my" game, not yours. And I would do it in a heartbeat with nary a concern for your feelings or emotions on the issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

What....
Gas is $0.3-0.5 cheaper here than the city
Hydro cost's the same
We don't pay for water
People burn propane (Gas) instead of piped in gas
I pay the same for internet/phone service as the townies...even have Fiber optic service.
Food more expensive ? Same stores here as in the city and I bet you drive to get your groceries too...

Have any more unfounded notions ?

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You aren't far enough into the sticks then. I moved from Fergus to the rural area around Markdale and I can tell you his post sure applies to my costs. Everything went up compared to living in the city.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DanO

You aren't far enough into the sticks then. I moved from Fergus to the rural area around Markdale and I can tell you his post sure applies to my costs. Everything went up compared to living in the city.

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That's what I was thinking too? Are we talking about the real sticks as in like Pickle Lake or are we talking about the sticks as in 40 minutes outside of downtown Toronto like Milton or Whitby?

If we're talking about the real sticks then yes land is cheaper, but cost of living is not, especially if you want to keep a similar lifestyle.


And on topic, if licence sales keep dipping they're sure to raise that new BS Surcharge to make up for the shortfall in their budget.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

W.T.H. are you talking about?...... I am just saying if you have to continually poach fish and game to feed your family you should move to an area with employment , not steal our game, forever...... Do you see anything wrong with that statement?

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You don't realise how poor some of the poor in Canada are...and many of those are "working poor" not on welfare. To move to a city to find a job costs money that they don't have, and unless you have someone you can stay with in the city, where are you going to stay? A homeless shelter. Your posts show you are completely out of touch with what the poor are faced with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

Steal "your" game? Buddy, if I was starving, the animal I harvest to feed myself would be "my" game, not yours. And I would do it in a heartbeat with nary a concern for your feelings or emotions on the issue.

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I did not say 'my game', I said 'our game', and IT IS, 'our game', not, 'your game' to harvest as you see fit. If you steal 'our game' then you should be charged. If you must do it continually then you should move. A poacher is a poacher no matter who he feeds.

So..... are those having this discussion, OK with people with no means of support harvesting 'OUR' wild game whenever they get hungry, for as long as it takes for them to get a job? Why just those up north, what about those living in the south, should they not be able to shoot a deer, lets say in Oshawa, because they are hungry?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

You don't realise how poor some of the poor in Canada are...and many of those are "working poor" not on welfare. To move to a city to find a job costs money that they don't have, and unless you have someone you can stay with in the city, where are you going to stay? A homeless shelter. Your posts show you are completely out of touch with what the poor are faced with.

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So you are OK with people shooting deer with no regards to regulations, because they are 'working poor'. For how long , a once off , or a couple of deer a year forever?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OldNewGuy

At the risk of posting "on track" (sorry!), I believe the statement in OOD is likely the correct one - older participants (fewer every year), lots of $$$ to participate (never mind gear or licence fees, have you looked at food + hotel/motel or B&B prices lately in Ontario?), lack of time, unavailability of land, etc.

On a personal basis, I didn't get out to the deer camp this year, for the first time in ages. Reasons: primarily, other commitments at work (I travel), but even if that wasn't the issue, times are tight, job security is dicey or so it seems so I, like others, decided to hunker down and save. Retail sales are down, reflective of these factors (reported, IIRC, that 2015 yearly sales were down approx 3% +/- overall). Increased hunting licence fees. Most of all, as mentioned elsewhere, lack of available land.

I used to hunt on relative's farms 70 Km north of Kitchener about an hour from my home, lots of deer eating/browsing crop stubble and harvest drops in the old days prior to shotgun only season. None of the kids (my cousins) wanted to keep farming, so the land was sold and the new folks aren't partial to hunters on the land (their right, and I respect them for it even though I mourn the loss). Now I need to drive close to 300 Km to the Perth area to join up with a friend's hunt camp. Great times, but I yearn for something within a 2 hour drive, not a 4 hour drive.

BTW - I am not unhappy if I don't bag a deer, or bear. A big part of what I go out for is the chance to enjoy nature, the sights/sounds/smells, and forget about the world for a week. If I fill my tag, it's a bonus.

OK - back off the rails LOL.

O.N.G.

---

Good post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by x_xeon_x

That's what I was thinking too? Are we talking about the real sticks as in like Pickle Lake or are we talking about the sticks as in 40 minutes outside of downtown Toronto like Milton or Whitby?

If we're talking about the real sticks then yes land is cheaper, but cost of living is not, especially if you want to keep a similar lifestyle.


And on topic, if licence sales keep dipping they're sure to raise that new BS Surcharge to make up for the shortfall in their budget.

---

Isn't the idea of moving to the "sticks" to change ones lifestyle?

There will always be tradeoffs, but this something I suspect who live and work in the cities truly don't understand, appreciate or really comprehend. Those who work in industries where certain things are taken for granted, don't understand.

There are tradeoffs, somethings will be more expensive. Just look at gas and based on recent post Ive seen on FB from friends.
SW Ont is paying give or take 5-8 cents....0.70/litre
Niagara/St Catheriens....0.80/litre
Durham region....0.90/litre
Northern Ont, like the Soo, TB or Timmins? $1.00?

However, I doubt many will argue that the city is on par, or cheaper over all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

What....

Gas is $0.3-0.5 cheaper here than the city

(R) This all depends on where you live in the sticks,I can get gas in Peterborough 10cents cheaper than in Toronto but once I get to Bancroft its more than Toronto.That is just a fact.
Hydro cost's the same

(R) Hydro rates in the sticks are more expensive,you also have a monthly minimum and are charged for "line Loss" .

We don't pay for water

(R) No you don,t directly but you do pay get the well drilled,put in a pump,dig the trench and pump the water on a ongoing basis.

People burn propane (Gas) instead of piped in gas

(R) Propane is more expensive than natural gas hands down,you also have delivery costs.

I pay the same for internet/phone service as the townies...even have Fiber optic service.

(R) Many places you cannot get service at all, when you do get it its spotty and ALWAYS more expensive.

Food more expensive ? Same stores here as in the city and I bet you drive to get your groceries too...

(R) Its more expensive and there is less choice,that,s because of economy of scale.More transportation costs.

Have any more unfounded notions ?

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I have answered all your strange notions,I live 6mths of the year in the sticks and 6mths in the City I think I know a few things.

BTW When you need a repair do you pay a repairman City Prices or Country prices.LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

Good post.



Isn't the idea of moving to the "sticks" to change ones lifestyle?

There will always be tradeoffs, but this something I suspect who live and work in the cities truly don't understand, appreciate or really comprehend. Those who work in industries where certain things are taken for granted, don't understand.

There are tradeoffs, somethings will be more expensive. Just look at gas and based on recent post Ive seen on FB from friends.
SW Ont is paying give or take 5-8 cents....0.70/litre
Niagara/St Catheriens....0.80/litre
Durham region....0.90/litre
Northern Ont, like the Soo, TB or Timmins? $1.00?

However, I doubt many will argue that the city is on par, or cheaper over all.

---

Generally, goods (including gasoline) are more expensive in the sticks - unless your "sticks" includes chain stores.
Housing is cheaper in the sticks.
Labour is cheaper in the sticks (but no so much as you'd think it would be).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

So you are OK with people shooting deer with no regards to regulations, because they are 'working poor'. For how long , a once off , or a couple of deer a year forever?

---

I don't think anyone has posted anything to support your straw man.

Can you just not admit you don't know much about the rural poor in Ontario.
...I mean your posts already show it, so may as well 'fess up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Generally, goods (including gasoline) are more expensive in the sticks - unless your "sticks" includes chain stores.
Housing is cheaper in the sticks.
Labour is cheaper in the sticks (but no so much as you'd think it would be).

---

Well in the STICKS you MUST have a vehicle or two.I can walk 300 yards and reach 5 major chain stores.
In the sticks you probably need to plough that car or preferably pickup out of your driveway,which you maintain in the summer.
Housing is cheaper in the sticks if you can find steady employment and and thereby qualify for a mortgage.
Labour is cheaper in the sticks until they find out your from TORANTO then it doubles.LOL

Then there is the added costs,chain saws,wood choppers,ATV,s ,trailers,gardening equipment..........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by werner.reiche

I don't think anyone has posted anything to support your straw man.

Can you just not admit you don't know much about the rural poor in Ontario.
...I mean your posts already show it, so may as well 'fess up.

---

The rural poor up my way have access to welfare,assisted housing and food banks just like in Toronto.They have thrift store shopping for clothes also the same.They know if they poach a DEER they are poaching a Deer,period.The reasons to excuse it are
simply not there up in my rural neck of the woods.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Well in the STICKS you MUST have a vehicle or two.I can walk 300 yards and reach 5 major chain stores.
In the sticks you probably need to plough that car or preferably pickup out of your driveway,which you maintain in the summer.
Housing is cheaper in the sticks if you can find steady employment and and thereby qualify for a mortgage.
Labour is cheaper in the sticks until they find out your from TORANTO then it doubles.LOL

Then there is the added costs,chain saws,wood choppers,ATV,s ,trailers,gardening equipment..........

---

That's just because everyone in the "sticks" know that anybody from Tronna are STP's (stupid Toronto people):fish:.

Food for thought... Some folks would rather take matters into their own hands and fend for themselves rather than go looking for handouts. Some folks would rather face the possibility of jail time and stay in the town/house they were born and raised in rather than move to the GTA for the possibility of a minimum wage job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GW11

Food for thought... Some folks would rather take matters into their own hands and fend for themselves rather than go looking for handouts. Some folks would rather face the possibility jail time and stay in the town/house they were born and raised in rather than move to the GTA for the possibility of a minimum wage job.

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Sure just do not steal OUR deer because you do not want to move. If you do poach, expect to be punished to the fullest extent of the law. Do not excuse law breaking just because they do not live in a city.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

I don't think anyone has posted anything to support your straw man.

Can you just not admit you don't know much about the rural poor in Ontario.
...I mean your posts already show it, so may as well 'fess up.

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All anyone needs to know is, no matter where you live, that if you shoot a deer out of season or not following the regulations , you are a poacher ( = criminal) and you should be treated and punished as such. To live up north and have no job, is not, and never should be an excuse for law breaking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Sure just do not steal OUR deer because you do not want to move. If you do poach, expect to be punished to the fullest extent of the law. Do not excuse law breaking just because they do not live in a city.

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So a guy in "anywhere" Ontario illegally shoots a few deer over the course of his lifetime to get his family over the rough spots and it allows him to stay in the house he was born and raised in rather than move to the city and collect welfare. This affects you how?
There's probably more right to that than allowing me to shoot 3 deer in a season (even though I have lots of meat) just because I can afford the extra tags.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GW11

So a guy in "anywhere" Ontario illegally shoots a few deer over the course of his lifetime to get his family over the rough spots and it allows him to stay in the house he was born and raised in rather than move to the city and collect welfare. This affects you how?
There's probably more right to that than allowing me to shoot 3 deer in a season (even though I have lots of meat) just because I can afford the extra tags.

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Change the words from a few deer, into a few moose and see how that plays out. They are not HIS deer or moose , they are OUR moose and he is stealing them from US. He is a poacher.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Change the words from a few deer, into a few moose and see how that plays out. They are not HIS deer or moose , they are OUR moose and he is stealing them from US. He is a poacher.

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Ask him if he cares...

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Originally Posted by GW11

Ask him if he cares...

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.......in jail after repeated violations.

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Originally Posted by x_xeon_x

If we're talking about the real sticks then yes land is cheaper, but cost of living is not, especially if you want to keep a similar lifestyle.

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I don't think ""keeping a similar lifestyle" is really a concern for people who find themselves poaching just to put food on the table.

The rural poor are POOR. And moving to Toronto is not really much of an option in that bracket.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

You don't realise how poor some of the poor in Canada are...and many of those are "working poor" not on welfare. To move to a city to find a job costs money that they don't have, and unless you have someone you can stay with in the city, where are you going to stay? A homeless shelter.

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Exactly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GW11

So a guy in "anywhere" Ontario illegally shoots a few deer over the course of his lifetime to get his family over the rough spots and it allows him to stay in the house he was born and raised in rather than move to the city and collect welfare. This affects you how?
There's probably more right to that than allowing me to shoot 3 deer in a season (even though I have lots of meat) just because I can afford the extra tags.

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Change that 'guy" into a 'first nations' person, and see what kind of response you get. Where you shoot and how many tags you get, are regulated proportionally to deer populations, not unemployment numbers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Change that 'guy" into a 'first nations' person, and see what kind of response you get. Where you shoot and how many tags you get, are regulated proportionally to deer populations, not unemployment numbers.

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We're not talking about first nations people. We're talking about a guy who is desperate enough to resort to poaching to feed his family. Believe me, this hypothetical guy couldn't care less whether or not you or anyone else thinks he's a poacher. As far as getting caught goes... well they're not your average poacher. They don't take more than they need and they sure as heck aren't out there doing it in blaze orange during an open season. They don't often get caught.

Is it illegal? Absolutely. Is it morally wrong? Opinions will vary on that, obviously.

As I was reading the various comments I kept thinking about the game First Nation people take - finally someone mentioned it - many of them pretty much live off the land and I think that if you lived far enough North you use this as an excuse to poach deer or whatever - feeling that if they can why can't I -

There is poaching and there is poaching - if someone shoots a deer because they don't have anything to eat - I have no problems - if they shoot one just to have some fun and some extra meat - I would have problems - you let wolves, coyotes and bear kill deer and think that it is ok because they have to eat -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

That's just because everyone in the "sticks" know that anybody from Tronna are STP's (stupid Toronto people):fish:.

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I know plenty of people from the sticks and they dont display this attitude,maybe I hang around with decent people.Your from a town where Mosques are burned down,are you not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GW11

We're not talking about first nations people. We're talking about a guy who is desperate enough to resort to poaching to feed his family. Believe me, this hypothetical guy couldn't care less whether or not you or anyone else thinks he's a poacher. As far as getting caught goes... well they're not your average poacher. They don't take more than they need and they sure as heck aren't out there doing it in blaze orange during an open season. They don't often get caught.

Is it illegal? Absolutely. Is it morally wrong? Opinions will vary on that, obviously.

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Hard to believe on a hunting forum anybody would support poaching. Its not the dirty thirties anymore and you cannot condone this type of thinking,bad for the sport and bad for young hunters reading this crap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Hard to believe on a hunting forum anybody would support poaching. Its not the dirty thirties anymore and you cannot condone this type of thinking,bad for the sport and bad for young hunters reading this crap.

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I don't believe that I said anywhere that I supported it, just spelling it out for those that can't see beyond their bubble. I guess maybe you're in the bubble too. When's the last time you've been in Northern Ontario Gilroy? It's not far from the dirty thirties in some places. It's easy to sit back and judge while you open a bottle of wine and decide whether it's steak or chicken tonight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

I know plenty of people from the sticks and they dont display this attitude,maybe I hang around with decent people.Your from a town where Mosques are burned down,are you not.

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Nope,that was in Peterborough and to hear Liberals talk,someone tried to level the joint and kill everyone in sight,but,it sure made a great photo-op for Justin,didn't it? It's turning out that it may have been a couple of 8 year olds messing with stuff that got away from them.........and I still say Peterborough is the best place to raise a family (from the other thread).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Sure just do not steal OUR deer because you do not want to move. If you do poach, expect to be punished to the fullest extent of the law. Do not excuse law breaking just because they do not live in a city.

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Ofah members should be promoting ethical hunting laws. This argument is the same as saying someone up north can steal and rob because of financial hardship. So really we should be promoting legal and ethical hunting because poaching is against the law just like stealing and robbing is against the law. Not sure there is grey area. So please promote ethical hunting on a public forum. So I have to agree with his argument.

Quote:

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Ofah members should be promoting ethical hunting laws. This argument is the same as saying someone up north can steal and rob because of financial hardship. So really we should be promoting legal and ethical hunting because poaching is against the law just like stealing and robbing is against the law. Not sure there is grey area. So please promote ethical hunting on a public forum. So I have to agree with his argument.

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Makes a lot of sense to me. If we decide that killing to feed the family when one is destitute is ok, then why not turn a blind eye to bank robbing to get the $$ to buy food.

If I find you someone poaching "our" deer....I'll turn them in....same as if I see them robbing the bank..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pbonura

Ofah members should be promoting ethical hunting laws. This argument is the same as saying someone up north can steal and rob because of financial hardship. So really we should be promoting legal and ethical hunting because poaching is against the law just like stealing and robbing is against the law. Not sure there is grey area. So please promote ethical hunting on a public forum. So I have to agree with his argument.

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Lol... some of you guys are too much, seriously.

If you think that what I'm describing (yes, describing, not to be confused with condoning or promoting) is in any way related to hunting or hunting ethics as you or I would see it, you're completely missing my point.

Judging by some of the other comments, at least a few others know what I'm talking about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GW11

Lol... some of you guys are too much, seriously.

If you think that what I'm describing (yes, describing, not to be confused with condoning or promoting) is in any way related to hunting or hunting ethics as you or I would see it, you're completely missing my point.

Judging by some of the other comments, at least a few others know what I'm talking about.

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Some folks are just wound way too tight and need to relax with a wee dram or two. LOL Really,it's about compassion when folks are really down and out. I don't see anyone posting about habitual poachers who are feed ing the black market. There's a lot of hurtin' folks out there and obviously,some of us don't see it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Well in the STICKS you MUST have a vehicle or two.I can walk 300 yards and reach 5 major chain stores.
In the sticks you probably need to plough that car or preferably pickup out of your driveway,which you maintain in the summer.
Housing is cheaper in the sticks if you can find steady employment and and thereby qualify for a mortgage.
Labour is cheaper in the sticks until they find out your from TORANTO then it doubles.LOL

Then there is the added costs,chain saws,wood choppers,ATV,s ,trailers,gardening equipment..........

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

The rural poor up my way have access to welfare,assisted housing and food banks just like in Toronto.They have thrift store shopping for clothes also the same.They know if they poach a DEER they are poaching a Deer,period.The reasons to excuse it are
simply not there up in my rural neck of the woods.

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Gilroy, you wouldn't know a stick from a stump! You're a wannabe country boy who thinks "up my way" is actually rural? To you it might be, but that's as far as your citiot comfort zone will let you go right. Comòn admit it, you`re wannabe.

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

.......in jail after repeated violations.

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You should change your username to Javert.;)

"our" deer....not such thing, it's illegal own wildlife. :)

Hard to believe that in a country so plentiful in bounty that a guy living a 'sustenance' life can't put venison on the table for his family without breaking the law. Thankfully LEO's in areas where this does occur know better and use their judgement.

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Originally Posted by Species8472

You should change your username to Javert.;)

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Good one. I see you side with the criminals, and not with justice. Or do you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

Gilroy, you wouldn't know a stick from a stump! You're a wannabe country boy who thinks "up my way" is actually rural? To you it might be, but that's as far as your citiot comfort zone will let you go right. Comòn admit it, you`re wannabe.

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LOL. Good one,bushmoose. "wannabe" hick,now,that's funny right there.:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Good one. I see you side with the criminals, and not with justice. Or do you?

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This one? Not so much. You can quit your trollin' now,fish,I think your out of bait.:fish:

Oh, he started it with his Javert jab , you may need to look it up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

Gilroy, you wouldn't know a stick from a stump! You're a wannabe country boy who thinks "up my way" is actually rural? To you it might be, but that's as far as your citiot comfort zone will let you go right. Comòn admit it, you`re wannabe.

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From what I have seen of some country folk know way in hell would I want to be any way like them. Many two narrow minded,racist,and stuck in their own little bubble where they surround themselves with people with the same poor attitudes.
It comes down to education and being well traveled.Which is lacking in both cases.

This is 2016 folks and Canada has changed big time, either get with the plan or get left behind.The last election should have taught you that.If I wanted to be a country boy I would sell my big house and move up there.There are reasons that has not happened and they are listed above.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Good one. I see you side with the criminals, and not with justice. Or do you?

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Twelve pages of "well what if the circumstances were thus." Seems ridiculous to me. I prefer to deal in reality instead of hypotheticals that have umpteen million permutation and combinations.

That being said if the rule of law is absolute and requires justice with no ability to extend our fellow citizens grace and compassion than something is seriously wrong with our society and ultimately we will all either be criminals or Javerts.

Going back to your question:

Should a subsistence poacher be charged, convicted and punished? In many cases yes and in some cases justice would be better served by extending grace and compassion. It is possible to do both and still see justice served.

Gilroy you are a brave man to say such things, if you did live up there, I hear they would burn down your barn for much less..... ps. if you did sell your big house down here ,you could likely buy the whole town in the sticks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Species8472

Twelve pages of "well what if the circumstances were thus." Seems ridiculous to me. I prefer to deal in reality instead of hypotheticals that have umpteen million permutation and combinations.

That being said if the rule of law is absolute and requires justice with no ability to extend our fellow citizens grace and compassion than something is seriously wrong with our society and ultimately we will all either be criminals or Javerts.

Going back to your question:

Should a subsistence poacher be charged, convicted and punished? In many cases yes and in some cases justice would be better served by extending grace and compassion. It is possible to do both and still see justice served.

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I agree if it is temporary poaching ,but to do it forever, I think not, and is he raising his family to be the next generation of 'subsistence' poachers? If he says well my dad did it, and his dad before him, and so on , should they not relocate? At how many animals and years do you draw the line, or is there even a line if you go far enough north?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Gilroy you are a brave man to say such things, if you did live up there, I hear they would burn down your barn for much less..... ps. if you did sell your big house down here ,you could likely buy the whole town in the sticks.

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LOL I dont let people bully me around either here or up north,burning a guys barn down could have serious blow back,if you know what I mean.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

I agree if it is temporary poaching ,but to do it forever, I think not, and is he raising his family to be the next generation of 'subsistence' poachers? If he says well my dad did it, and his dad before him, and so on , should they not relocate?

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Refer to my post - hypotheticals. Too many scenarios with too many answers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Species8472

Should a subsistence poacher be charged, convicted and punished? In many cases yes and in some cases justice would be better served by extending grace and compassion. It is possible to do both and still see justice served.

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Enough of that. Too much wisdom in one place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Species8472

Twelve pages of "well what if the circumstances were thus." Seems ridiculous to me. I prefer to deal in reality instead of hypotheticals that have umpteen million permutation and combinations.

That being said if the rule of law is absolute and requires justice with no ability to extend our fellow citizens grace and compassion than something is seriously wrong with our society and ultimately we will all either be criminals or Javerts.

Going back to your question:

Should a subsistence poacher be charged, convicted and punished? In many cases yes and in some cases justice would be better served by extending grace and compassion. It is possible to do both and still see justice served.

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I don't live in the sticks and understand your response. But on a public forum we should not promote law breaking. Does this happen up north sure it does. Should we promote it on a public forum where we are judged by anti hunters no. Hey but I would prefer to help any family and would in a heart beat but not crazy about promoting illegal poaching. I hunt hard and have to buy tags and hunting equipment and work to fill a tag and if someone needs to feed their family there are other ways to support your family.

Gee G, almost sounds like you think Fns and Inuit should be hung for stealing our deer.

Lets not, because thats not the point of drawing the parallel. But its a slippery slope.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pbonura

I don't live in the sticks and understand your response. But on a public forum we should not promote law breaking. Does this happen up north sure it does. Should we promote it on a public forum where we are judged by anti hunters no. Hey but I would prefer to help any family and would in a heart beat but not crazy about promoting illegal poaching. I hunt hard and have to buy tags and hunting equipment and work to fill a tag and if someone needs to feed their family there are other ways to support your family.

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Where in my post do i promote poaching and/or law breaking? Poaching is wrong. All I am saying is that there are times when a mistake is made and that it is okay to extend grace and compassion based on the circumstances and still see justice served. That does not mean one does not recognize that the was law broken or that you condone their actions. It just means that you are choosing not to punish them for their mistake - this falls within the definition of grace not promotion. Without a little bit of grace we would all be in a world of hurt at different times.

I don't really see any "promoting poaching" here. I do see some with compassion for their fellow man and wisdom in others that realize this isn't a "black and white" issue,either. There's always some "gray" in between. Fundamental justice demands each case be judged on it's own merits. Blanket statements and condemnation should not part of the equation.

Quote:

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All I am saying is that there are times when a mistake is made and that it is okay to extend grace and compassion based on the circumstances and still see justice served.

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So a person who kills a deer or moose because they are destitute and need it to feed their family are making a "mistake"? Don't think so. I think it is an intentional choice they make to break the law hoping they don't get caught and hope for leniency if they do. That is where the justice system kicks in. Yes some LEO's may exercise that "justice" at the side of the road, but that is why Judges get paid the big bucks also. There can be compassion at all stages of the justice system. But it is poaching at the end of the day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redd foxx

So a person who kills a deer or moose because they are destitute and need it to feed their family are making a "mistake"? Don't think so. I think it is an intentional choice they make to break the law hoping they don't get caught and hope for leniency if they do. That is where the justice system kicks in. Yes some LEO's may exercise that "justice" at the side of the road, but that is why Judges get paid the big bucks also. There can be compassion at all stages of the justice system. But it is poaching at the end of the day.

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Call it a "mistake, infraction, violation, crime, etc" - who cares. Just because something is done intentionally with the hope of not getting caught does not mean it is not a mistake. The definition of mistake is "an action or judgement that is misguided or wrong." The action of poaching falls into this category the same as it falls into the category of "infraction, violation or crime."

On offender may not believe they are not committing a mistake at the time of the offence but in hindsight the same offender will often freely admit that they committed their actions intentionally but that it was a mistake to do so.

Also if you read all the posts I have made I never stated that it is not poaching - it is obviously poaching no matter the reason. I have also been clear that poaching is wrong and equally clear that in many cases where poaching is done for subsistence reasons, charges, a conviction and punishment are warranted. In some cases however justice would be better served by extending grace to the offender. This does not mean that I condone the offender's actions or that the offender did not commit a "mistake, infraction, violation or crime."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Species8472

Where in my post do i promote poaching and/or law breaking? Poaching is wrong. All I am saying is that there are times when a mistake is made and that it is okay to extend grace and compassion based on the circumstances and still see justice served. That does not mean one does not recognize that the was law broken or that you condone their actions. It just means that you are choosing not to punish them for their mistake - this falls within the definition of grace not promotion. Without a little bit of grace we would all be in a world of hurt at different times.

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Sorry didn't apply you supported poaching.

I bet just about every hunter who has hunted any length of time has broken a law or two - some by honest mistake, some by careless mistake and some because it was rationalized as the smart thing to do at the time - I could give you a lot of situations where you can intentionally break a law because the alternative would not be practical - here's an example - we have antler restrictions - during buck season you can only shoot a buck with a least 3 points on one antler - so you see this buck running down the trail - you scope it and it looks legal so you shoot - it drops but then you see that it is a Y buck - an honest mistake - maybe a careless mistake - now by law you are suppose to call the game commission and tell them what happened - they come and take the deer and then listen to your story and maybe decide that you acted wrong and you end up with a find - which often happens - I think most hunters would take the deer home and say nothing -

Down here we can't bait deer - putting out any food for them is a violation - a lot of hunters are being caught because of this rule - most of them think it is unfair that a guy can plant a acre or two of corn or other feed to bring in the deer and that is ok but if you put out a bucket of feed out it is unlawful - so guys are baiting deer and some are getting caught -

What I'm saying is that if laws are considered stupid or unfair people will break them - I'm sure a lot of guys will shoot deer and feel that if the natives can do it then it is unfair and end up doing the same -

I watch a program on TV called - Life Below Zero - there is a family on there that live in Alaska - the husband is a white guy and his wife is a native - they have 5 girls - the program is mostly about this family living off the land - the wife can shoot anything anytime - they shoot caribou in the water - club geese when they can't fly - harvest geese and duck eggs - use nets to fish - it is something to see the amount of animals and fish they consume - I can see if some guy up in Alaska sees this and says to himself - holy mackerel

Your right Joe....for the sanctimonious on here, there is an old saying: "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone"

I love that show by the way..

Another example you take you son/daughter say Goose hunting legally speaking they can not tell you they see a goose coming from the other direction as they would be assisting in the hunt. Now you tell me someone who takes their kid hunting and they never say a thing or maybe you don't let then help retrieve one of the geese and I would say your a liar. Sometimes laws are broken and if that makes me a bad person well I can live with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

Another example you take you son/daughter say Goose hunting legally speaking they can not tell you they see a goose coming from the other direction as they would be assisting in the hunt. Now you tell me someone who takes their kid hunting and they never say a thing or maybe you don't let then help retrieve one of the geese and I would say your a liar. Sometimes laws are broken and if that makes me a bad person well I can live with it.

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I think we (the internet) are to blame for that.... We fight amongst ourselves so often we forget the intent of the law and make up our own translations posting it all over the net... No CO would ever lay a charge for something like that.....

Killing something so one can survive and killing something for hunting may not be the same thing, so the rules can be interpreted differently.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Your right Joe....for the sanctimonious on here, there is an old saying: "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone"

I love that show by the way..

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Have to agree but what some guys on this forum forget is this is a public forum so let's not promote breaking the law... Crap happens and families are desperate to feed their family...

Crap does happen and I agree that lots of people break laws and make mistakes. There is a difference between making a mistake that breaks the law and choosing to ignore a law hence breaking it. If one shoot s a y buck thinking it was a 3 point that very well may have been a mistake but to ignore the law and take it home rather than report it is a choice to ignore and break the law.. May be a little hard to convince the LEO of the mistake after getting caught sneaking it home.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Species8472

Call it a "mistake, infraction, violation, crime, etc" - who cares. Just because something is done intentionally with the hope of not getting caught does not mean it is not a mistake. The definition of mistake is "an action or judgement that is misguided or wrong." The action of poaching falls into this category the same as it falls into the category of "infraction, violation or crime."

On offender may not believe they are not committing a mistake at the time of the offence but in hindsight the same offender will often freely admit that they committed their actions intentionally but that it was a mistake to do so.

Also if you read all the posts I have made I never stated that it is not poaching - it is obviously poaching no matter the reason. I have also been clear that poaching is wrong and equally clear that in many cases where poaching is done for subsistence reasons, charges, a conviction and punishment are warranted. In some cases however justice would be better served by extending grace to the offender. This does not mean that I condone the offender's actions or that the offender did not commit a "mistake, infraction, violation or crime."

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Species, as usual your posts are well thought out and articulated. Unfortunately, some are having difficulty distinguishing between discussing an issue and promoting it. Apparently if we don't vehemently condemn an illegal activity while we discuss it, then we must be supporting, condoning and promoting it. Just because what we're talking about is based on (gasp) fish and game laws doesn't mean we can't discuss it like we could anything else.

For the record, I think plenty of the regulations are just plain dumb but it doesn't mean that I won't follow them. Why does the tag holder have to attach the tag, even though he might be 80 years old and a 2 km walk from the shooter? Why should I have to encase my gun/bow at dark, even though it's too dark to use it anyway? Why does my shotgun have to be plugged for 3 shots, even though I'm using it in an area that my buddy can carry his lever action rifle that holds 7 shells?

I might sympathize with the guy who gets fined for walking that tag in to the deer for the old-timer, or the guy who forgets his gun sock in the truck, but it doesn't mean that I "promote" it or that I'd do it myself.

Sometimes the self-righteousness around here gets a little thick.

Good post GW11...I was going to say pretty much the same thing. There are more than a few guys who play loosey goosey with the Party hunting rules, not to mention how many camps have resorted to using a '2nd' poles thru the camps history when mistakes happen.

There sure seem to be a lot of hypocrisy as to when they think the book should be thrown at them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GW11

Species, as usual your posts are well thought out and articulated. Unfortunately, some are having difficulty distinguishing between discussing an issue and promoting it. Apparently if we don't vehemently condemn an illegal activity while we discuss it, then we must be supporting, condoning and promoting it. Just because what we're talking about is based on (gasp) fish and game laws doesn't mean we can't discuss it like we could anything else.

For the record, I think plenty of the regulations are just plain dumb but it doesn't mean that I won't follow them. Why does the tag holder have to attach the tag, even though he might be 80 years old and a 2 km walk from the shooter? Why should I have to encase my gun/bow at dark, even though it's too dark to use it anyway? Why does my shotgun have to be plugged for 3 shots, even though I'm using it in an area that my buddy can carry his lever action rifle that holds 7 shells?

I might sympathize with the guy who gets fined for walking that tag in to the deer for the old-timer, or the guy who forgets his gun sock in the truck, but it doesn't mean that I "promote" it or that I'd do it myself.

Sometimes the self-righteousness around here gets a little thick.

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There aint two types of poaching no matter what way you cut it,there seems to be a lot of selective reading on here.I just posted my camps Moose hunt where an honest mistake was made and ticket issued,no drama,we made a mistake and got fined.End of.

The CO has discretion. Depending on the situation, he can choose whether to lay a charge, or issue a warning. That's going to depend on the circumstances and the offence.

It doesn't imply that there are two types of poaching.

To the original post. I used to moose hunt but cant be bothered putting in for a tag 5 years running all the while paying the fee for nothing I don't bother any more. I'd class myself a very casual deer hunter and with deer numbers way down I don't buy a tag any more.


I expect there are a lot of folks like me that aren't a particular big game hunter that have opted out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by welsh

The CO has discretion. Depending on the situation, he can choose whether to lay a charge, or issue a warning. That's going to depend on the circumstances and the offence.

It doesn't imply that there are two types of poaching.

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Some on here want to imply that.If a person makes a decision to kill a deer to feed himself or his family and its out of season or they have no license, I see very little possibility of them getting a break in this day and age.Nobody is so hard up these days that this should happen,if your hungry go to a food bank.The MNR take a 10% cut off available tags for poaching.This means that the legal hunter who is paying full freight gets less opportunity.I am not ok with that.If the poacher can afford the gun,ammunition and probably the means to transport a stolen deer,why does he need to steal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

If a person makes a decision to kill a deer to feed himself or his family and its out of season or they have no license, I see very little possibility of them getting a break in this day and age.

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I can tell you I've spoken to someone at the MNR who have said that they would turn a blind eye in cases where people are obviously in dire straits. Those remarks were not re deer, but re fishing, seasons and limits. The guy I was talking to felt that this was something the resource would bear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

The MNR take a 10% cut off available tags for poaching.This means that the legal hunter who is paying full freight gets less opportunity.I am not ok with that.

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Whether you're okay with that or not, it isn't going to change, and so the MNR will continue to account for it in its management plans. Poaching will occur, just as trespassing will occur and speeding will occur. Stamping your foot and pouting has no effect.

The guy in abject poverty is not the guy doing most of that poaching anyway.

I am not certain of the view on this in the present, but I can tell you that in the early 80's I hunted with a friend in Nova Scotia (we were both in the Air Force at the time).
His family and friends were 'dirt poor' and I mean dirt poor in the context that the road were made of dirt in the area and the dirt in the surrounding farm was not fertile. Their family hunted to survive as many in the area did. If they did not have a good season hunting they went hungry.
In that instance I had no issue with their choices and I still don't. I would hope that any CO would be smart enough to see such a situation and walk away from it.
In this scenario the difference between poaching is the act to survive or the act to create profit however that plays out...

"The guy in abject poverty is not the guy doing most of that poaching anyway."


I guy in abject property would not have the means to poach a deer,firearm,transport.....and the whole thread has been about deer Moose and not about taking an extra fish.The CO up my will give you a summons for either violation.

Thats a dumb comment and not really true.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

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I guy in abject property would not have the means to poach a deer,firearm,transport.....and the whole thread has been about deer Moose and not about taking an extra fish.The CO up my will give you a summons for either violation.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by DGearyFTE

I am not certain of the view on this in the present, but I can tell you that in the early 80's I hunted with a friend in Nova Scotia (we were both in the Air Force at the time).
His family and friends were 'dirt poor' and I mean dirt poor in the context that the road were made of dirt in the area and the dirt in the surrounding farm was not fertile. Their family hunted to survive as many in the area did. If they did not have a good season hunting they went hungry.
In that instance I had no issue with their choices and I still don't. I would hope that any CO would be smart enough to see such a situation and walk away from it.
In this scenario the difference between poaching is the act to survive or the act to create profit however that plays out...

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Very,very slippery slope for any CO to take. The word gets out that Joe Smith got a break who is your neighbour,then you expect the same break.Right.

The guy who killed the Bull this year at our camp asked the CO if he could at least keep the tenderloins.REPLY "DO YOU THINK I,AM GOING TO RISK MY JOB OVER A COUPLE OF TENDERLOINS".

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

Thats a dumb comment and not really true.

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Whats dumb about it and whats really not true?

Gilroy - What your moose gang did was the right thing to do. Phoning it in and and admitting that kind of mistake results in a minimal fine and the confiscation of the animal. Covering it up and getting caught is much worse.

Unfortunately though, it appears that your knowledge of the way some people in this province live (abject poverty) ends at around Coe Hill and Bancroft. You're retired, take a few days and drive up North, real North, and visit some of the poorer communities and see if you still have the same idea of what "poverty" is. Visit some of the towns that have (or had) a pulp and paper mill that used to employ thousands and now employ hundreds, if any at all. See if you still think it's so black and white.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

I guy in abject property would not have the means to poach a deer,firearm,transport....

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That's untrue. It's obvious your experience here is somewhat limited.

The thread was about moose to start, but it's become a discussion of poaching in general. In the case of shooting a moose out of season, given current conservation concerns, a CO would likely not turn a blind eye. As I previously suggested, TWICE, it would depend on the circumstances.

COs have discretion, and they use it. It's a fact. Admit it and move on.

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Originally Posted by welsh

That's untrue. It's obvious your experience here is somewhat limited.

The thread was about moose to start, but it's become a discussion of poaching in general. In the case of shooting a moose out of season, given current conservation concerns, a CO would likely not turn a blind eye. As I previously suggested, TWICE, it would depend on the circumstances.

COs have discretion, and they use it. It's a fact. Admit it and move on.

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Absolutely they have discretion and from my experience they will use it to give you a summons.Happy Now.

Really I see Cops and courts give people breaks they even give gang bangers breaks and that happens often.

Many years ago over 30. I think I was around 14 at the time my brothers 12 and 10. We were fishing the Loc lomond lakes outside of Saint John NB. My Dad and a friend of his who was a CO took us fishing for browns. There was a minimum size back that if I recall I think it was 14 inches. My youngest brother caught his first brown at best it was under 13 inches. I still remember that old fella looking at my brother and asking him if it was his first trout. Dad's friend the CO looked at him and smiled "Looks like a good 14 inch to me."

My mother was born shortly after WW2 they were dirt poor she was raised on poached game from deer to upland game as well as the poor man's food lobster.

Sometimes rules are broken for many different reasons in life.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Very,very slippery slope for any CO to take. The word gets out that Joe Smith got a break who is your neighbour,then you expect the same break.Right.

The guy who killed the Bull this year at our camp asked the CO if he could at least keep the tenderloins.REPLY "DO YOU THINK I,AM GOING TO RISK MY JOB OVER A COUPLE OF TENDERLOINS".

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by GW11

Gilroy - What your moose gang did was the right thing to do. Phoning it in and and admitting that kind of mistake results in a minimal fine and the confiscation of the animal. Covering it up and getting caught is much worse.

Unfortunately though, it appears that your knowledge of the way some people in this province live (abject poverty) ends at around Coe Hill and Bancroft. You're retired, take a few days and drive up North, real North, and visit some of the poorer communities and see if you still have the same idea of what "poverty" is. Visit some of the towns that have (or had) a pulp and paper mill that used to employ thousands and now employ hundreds, if any at all. See if you still think it's so black and white.

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That probably explains why we have very few Moose up north and the lack of tags.BTW I have hunted White River, Manitouwadge,
and North of Thunder Bay (dog lake rd areas).

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

Really I see Cops and courts give people breaks they even give gang bangers breaks and that happens often.

Many years ago over 30. I think I was around 14 at the time my brothers 12 and 10. We were fishing the Loc lomond lakes outside of Saint John NB. My Dad and a friend of his who was a CO took us fishing for browns. There was a minimum size back that if I recall I think it was 14 inches. My youngest brother caught his first brown at best it was under 13 inches. I still remember that old fella looking at my brother and asking him if it was his first trout. Dad's friend the CO looked at him and smiled "Looks like a good 14 inch to me."

My mother was born shortly after WW2 they were dirt poor she was raised on poached game from deer to upland game as well as the poor man's food lobster.

Sometimes rules are broken for many different reasons in life.

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Yur still from a family of poachers son.

And you hunt with poachers, Gilroy, by your own admission. Having retired from working with murderers.

Grow up.

Gilroy, as has been said before, by me and several others on here. You're out of touch with the real world and real poverty. Those few times you went hunting up north couldn't possibly show you how some folks live. You were a 1 week tourist passing thru and no doubt, way past your comfort zone.
"Food Bank"? "Thrift Store"? Com'on man, wake up! I am a regular volunteer at our local foodbank here in the little town close to where I live. Not every place up here has a foodbank. They're very scattered and it can be impossible for many to even get to them due to living in the country with no vehicle.
You don't know what poor is do you? Why don't you volunteer some of your time and help out. Go do dishes at your local soup kitchen a couple times a month? In the meantime get off your self righteous butt and quit trying to stir the pot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

There aint two types of poaching no matter what way you cut it,there seems to be a lot of selective reading on here.I just posted my camps Moose hunt where an honest mistake was made and ticket issued,no drama,we made a mistake and got fined.End of.

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So someone in your camp made a mistake, and admitted it. But since you now belong to a camp full of "horrible" poachers none of the "righteous hunters" should talk to you right? Or at least that is what they say.

Good thing the rest of us on here are human too. Guess you will still have someone to talk to..

Wow, at this thread.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Feeding your family, that is what I would call it.

If someone shoots a deer so that their kids don't go to school hungry I think it it sustenance and is ok in my eyes. People who go out and shoot something for the antlers, leave the deer in the bush or pile the meat on top of their full freezer, I call that poaching.

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I agree. I for one would certainly look the other way if I knew someone was poaching a deer to feed his kids. In fact I would likely help him drag it out. Yeah, it's illegal. Some people have to do what they have to do and I respect that.

X3 Fox and Terry.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

"our" deer....not such thing, it's illegal own wildlife. :)

Hard to believe that in a country so plentiful in bounty that a guy living a 'sustenance' life can't put venison on the table for his family without breaking the law. Thankfully LEO's in areas where this does occur know better and use their judgement.

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BINGO! The CO's in the Upper Ottawa VAlley certainly knew when a dad with a bunch of hungry kids took a deer and they didn't pursue the "poacher". There's a big difference between robbing a bank and taking a OOS deer.

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

Gilroy, as has been said before, by me and several others on here. You're out of touch with the real world and real poverty. Those few times you went hunting up north couldn't possibly show you how some folks live. You were a 1 week tourist passing thru and no doubt, way past your comfort zone.
"Food Bank"? "Thrift Store"? Com'on man, wake up! I am a regular volunteer at our local foodbank here in the little town close to where I live. Not every place up here has a foodbank. They're very scattered and it can be impossible for many to even get to them due to living in the country with no vehicle.
You don't know what poor is do you? Why don't you volunteer some of your time and help out. Go do dishes at your local soup kitchen a couple times a month? In the meantime get off your self righteous butt and quit trying to stir the pot.

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Your definition of stirring the pot is anybody having a different opinion from your own.I have worked at the Scott Mission in Toronto a number of times volunteering.So no I,am not out of touch with reality, I also worked in the poorest housing complex in Toronto for 15 solid years.Nobody these days needs to poach.

While we are on the topic of hypocrisy there have been hundreds of posts on here with attacks on First Nations for taking game and they get hammered by you guys,but when its one of your own they get a pass with the excuse that the guy was poor and feeding his family,what a joke.

^^^ That last comment is so true on this forum.

Interesting you say Toronto. As I suspected you do believe that Toronto is the center of the Universe.

Gilroy within Toronto almost anyone who is poor will have help at their fingertips within minutes it is quite different outside of there.

As for the issue with FN's usually most on here are complaining about FN's that are shooting not 1 not 2 but many many Moose.

As for hypocrisy I suspect most on here would agree your are the poster boy for that.

I really believe you need to wake up and look around you outside of Toronto, Ontario and Canada is much more then just Toronto.

As for members on here giving most poachers on here a past that is completely untrue in fact the majority on here have stated they would like to see the penalties increased. There is a difference in poaching for food and the poaching for a trophy or just shooting a Moose for the sake of shooting it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Your definition of stirring the pot is anybody having a different opinion from your own.I have worked at the Scott Mission in Toronto a number of times volunteering.So no I,am not out of touch with reality, I also worked in the poorest housing complex in Toronto for 15 solid years.Nobody these days needs to poach.

While we are on the topic of hypocrisy there have been hundreds of posts on here with attacks on First Nations for taking game and they get hammered by you guys,but when its one of your own they get a pass with the excuse that the guy was poor and feeding his family,what a joke.

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With all due respect GW for me this comes down to "INTENT".

People can make mistakes while hunting and I was brave enough this year to post my camps mistake.

If we had decided to keep that Moose mistaken for a bull and cover it up we would be guilty of poaching.

If a poor man up north or elsewhere makes a conscious decision to take a Moose or Deer without a license or out of season they to are poachers.

You cant make poverty an excuse for an illegal act, if this was the case then would you approve of the same poor guy sticking up the Mac,s Milk store in town.


PS An amazing turn around a Liberal fighting against the law and order crowd who are trying to defend poaching.LOL

Here's a couple questions. How many deer or moose would a guy need to poach to feed his family for a year?? Or 2? Or forever??
How many FN's or poor northerner's need to do this??

I guess this is why hunting license sales are down, really?......this thread has now become silly

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Originally Posted by fratri

I guess this is why hunting license sales are down, really?......this thread has now become silly

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Frati the voice of reason.