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Any idea what dogs would be good for thick bush grouse hunting as well as retrieving migratory birds in the water and on land. I know a lab will flush grouse but with how think the grouse bushes are I would think that something that would point them in one way or another would be better.
Laugh hard if you want but I used to use our deer hunting beagle that would not hunt deer as a grouse flushing dog, he was the best pet ever but never hunted anything but grouse and once in a while rabbits.
Most of your continental versatile breeds will fit that bill, German shorthairs, wirehairs, Vizsla etc. Check out NAVHDA on line for more info on versatile breeds.
Springer Spaniel ,Cocker Spaniel as well as a Brittany would be your best bet as a versatile breed if your looking for a smaller dog. My Springer is awesome in thick cover and she can out perform a bigger dog in this type of cover. I do not do any late season duck hunting with her and have a Labrador Retriever as well for this purpose.
I lost a dog after sixteen years this past summer, she was dynamite on the grouse and a pretty fair retriever on land and water and more than once proved her worth on tracking wounded big game ... check out Small Munsterlander.
I had been looking at Brittanys, Springers and the duck toller, the tollers are hard to find and a lot of money, plus they are supposed to be crazy like a border collie and we need to leave for work daily.
How are springers with cats? BTW, I love shorthaired pointers but the short hair would be tough for them in the winter, I need to go a little more rugged.
Never looked at the Munsterlander.
a hunting buddy of mine has a german wire haired pointer. he uses it to point grouse and rabbits, and even uses him for late season duck hunting in cold conditions. however he had some trouble retrieving huge local geese in one field hunt we hunted together. but he still chased them down and did his best to bring them to us, but just couldn't pick up some of them for very long. he'd still help you locate a lost big goose though I am sure ..
The locating part would be the ticket, there are marshes where I want to hunt ducks but there is no way I will because unless I drop them in the water and wade out to them I will never find them, too much grass or too many alders.Quote:
Originally Posted by bowj
I also want to hunt doves and that would be a big problem I could see.
A Brittany will retrieve ducks but is near impossible to get to stop moving. I think after an hour in a duck blind you would want to shoot the dog.
A Deutsch-Drahthaar will fit your needs .
A Clumber Spaniel....... might as well as we will bring out every breed possible on this thread. Time for a popcorn and sit back and read!
Dick
I was in the same situation as you last year. I went with a Pudelpointer. I could not be happier. He passed his Natural Ability test at 5 1/2 months old. At 7 months he was retrieving ducks and steady to shot in the blind and canoe. He retrieved 6 geese all water and one still very much alive! Shot about ten grouse and twenty pheasants. Only one bird lost. He is not steady after shot in the field but steady in the blind. On the other hand he is full of life and a off leash run of at least an hour every day and another second walk on leash of an hour is required. He gets training every day. He is the best hunting buddy ever. His connection to me is unbelievable. Versatile hunting dogs are impressive if you put in the time. NAVHDA is key.
Consider a German wire-haired pointer or pudelpointer.
You clearly need a dog. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Re your question on springers and cats, I think it's going to come down not to breed but to whether the dog was raised with cats. But re the question of springers in general, if you think a pointing breed will be better than a Lab then you don't want a springer, you want to look at the European versatile breeds.
You will have a difficult time finding success with a toller, and they do not point. Their energy levels are not any different from any other working dog.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I didn't include in my PM to you that Springers do not point. But my freezer is full with a wide variety of wild game that my Springer happily retrieved to hand. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
When I was looking for a new pup a few years ago, I attended the NAVHDA Invitational in Ohio. The event consists of three sections, field, double mark and blind retrieve. I was most impressed with the blind retrieve. It was a blind retrieve of approx. 90 yards across water. Straight across the pond, find the duck and straight back. I thought it was amazing. The double mark and field sections were very impressive as well. I would say that 60 to 70 % of the dogs were GSPs with pretty well all other versatile breeds represented, there was even a 8 year old Pointer which earned a VC that weekend. I choose a Brittany and am very happy with my choice. After a couple of years working with my dog, I am even more impressed with the dedication it takes to train to that level. I guess my point is that even though the Invitational dogs are the best of the best, you are only restricted by the type of weather and water temps you will be hunting if you have the time and dedication to train.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishhawk
I am leaning towards a Brittany, the bush I would be hunting could be tough for strictly a flusher (too thick) and the longer hair would serve it better in the winter, plus they are smaller which would be fine for everything but geese (which we normally field hunt anyway). I pinged a few breeders to get an idea, no done deal yet but I miss having a dog around and I need to get moving on something or I never will.
We shall see what happens coming into the spring, lots of Brittany breeders that have been recommended in previous threads here, so that is a good selling point too.
Not many Brittanys can sit still in a blind, just be forewarned.
always the #1 on my listQuote:
Originally Posted by seadog
but they are needy when it comes to how much time you have to spend with them if you want to actually max out their potential - so certainly not for everyone.
regarding the comment on being not able to retrieve a heavy goose. I would not attribute that to the breed, but rather to the individual dog not being conditioned to retrieve heavy game (e.g. goose, fox).
No such thing as too thick for a flusher more like too thick for the hunter .lol I have hunted many times the areas you hunt and my Springer would burn up those areas. And my flusher retrieves geese without any problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
A flusher is more suited to thicker bush - they flush the bird out to you. With a pointer you're going to be the one fighting the bush to get the bird.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Mine too, and he's a little english cocker.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
you should :)Quote:
Never looked at the Munsterlander
but first decide if you want a flusher or a pointer.
He is NOT little, he's the size of a good springer ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cass
How many times have you hunted grouse with a pointing dog?Quote:
With a pointer you're going to be the one fighting the bush to get the bird.
Well you know what I mean, LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by vom Dufenshmirtz
I haven't. My point was don't rule a flusher out... they flush, its what they do. My dog will take on a solid wall of prickly ash. We don't finish any hunts where his face isn't raw.Quote:
Originally Posted by vom Dufenshmirtz
"too thick" and springer don't belong in the same sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
Yes you are correct ,my mistake .lol
For hunting purposes it is useful to teach a pointing breed to flush the bird on command ; that way the hunter doesn't have to go into the thick stuff but rather stay in a position for a good shot.
To accomplish what Sharon has suggested you need a very highly trained, obedient dog that is solid on point. This needs a dog that understands the command fetch , allowed to chase and being obedient still to wing , shot and fall. I have only done this with my dogs when they have finished any testing , and or competitions I would chose to enter. Consistent retraining is required, but rewarding when you do have thick cover.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharon
Dick
Having pointers flush is more common in Europe. A friend of mine has his GSP trained that way. That will be goal for my next dog.
My German Wirehaired Pointer would flush on command . No matter what was required , he would point , flush and retrieve (land and water) on command . --- As far as hunting was concerned , he did just about anything but shoot the game . --- Yeah , I know , I am biased . I loved that dog . --- His only flaw : He was a fighter ! He didn't like other males . If I wouldn't have intervened he would have killed other males (on a few occasions) . He weighed only 80 lbs. but "out-fought" dogs that were 30 lbs. heavier than him .
If I was ever to have a pointer this would be my goal. In my mind, I got a dog to go into those thick spots so I don't have to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharon
[QUOTEa hunting buddy of mine has a german wire haired pointer. he uses it to point grouse and rabbits, and even uses him for late season duck hunting in cold conditions. however he had some trouble retrieving huge local geese in one field hunt we hunted together. but he still chased them down and did his best to bring them to us, but just couldn't pick up some of them for very long. he'd still help you locate a lost big goose though I am sure ..][/QUOTE]
I am surprised to hear that about your friends German wirehair pointer as my female German shorthair pointer has no issues with retrieving big geese.
If you have a trained flusher (i.e. a springer), the most basic command is to hup on a whistle. This has to be taught before you try to steady the dog. Use this to hup the dog when he's getting birdy so you can get into a good position. Then give him a go to flush the bird. Done this dozens and dozens of times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharon
I'd also hup him when I was pond-jumping ducks, sneak up on the ducks, jump shoot and then call him to retrieve.
The biggest challenge in grouse hunting with a flusher, I find, is dealing with wild-flushing birds. If the birds are going up well in front of the dog, and you're behind the dog, you're handicapped from the get-go. Especially if you have all kinds of thick cover in the way.
Not sure how pointing dogs really compare on that front. If the dog has to go on point 15 yards from the bird the frustrations are probably equal. :)
That can be a problem with flushers, pointers or just walking the bush alone. Try to keep the dog in close - within 20 yards.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
Hey, I'm busy blaming the dog for my misses. No solutions allowed. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
The issue is that if I have a flushing dog and they are 15 yards from me in the thick bush then there is no way I would ever be able to get a shot. I would like to get something that will notify me that there is a bird there and let me get into position for the best possible shot before I or the dog flushes, if the dog is rooting around but I cannot see the dog or the bird then what is the point of having a dog.
Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
That's the trick she locks up and I start looking 15-20 yards ahead while picking out the best shooting lane sometimes it works.
http://s1200.photobucket.com/user/ro...skxda.jpg.html
Sometimes it doesn't.
Sort of have to see it done to fully understand the inner workings hunting with a dog. You really have to be in tune with your dog the slight changes in tempo and movements will alert you to the presents of game. Even the tempo of her bell will let me know if shes getting birdy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I always say "I shot just when I swung in front of a tree".Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
This thread needs more pictures.
BTW - those duck/geese were all water retrieves from mucky beaver ponds.
http://www.oodmag.com/community/atta...4&d=1350341364
http://www.oodmag.com/community/atta...5&d=1236278994
http://www.oodmag.com/community/atta...6&d=1236278994
I had him lined up perfectly....Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/...41766582_n.jpg
X2 . Not many Britts will sit still in a blind. My 2 included.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
You can always use the "too much choke" excuse. We would automatically back you up on that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Hmmm Much better looking than your avatar. :) Great pics.!
flush on command: This is not a great video, and not the one I wanted, but gives a little idea of the behaviour.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AS4...ature=youtu.be
This is an excellent link on the differences in the training : for pointing breeds
"steady to flush" right up to the last video on "flush on command".
http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.ca/2...-now-what.html
What happens when you can't see the forest for the trees......Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
The guy in the avatar is 15 years younger, 30 pounds lighter, is at the end of the day on the last of 13 days of dark-to-dark deer hunting and just finished a 2 hour drag of a 150lb buck and 300lb bear out to the truck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharon
LOL Got it!
Cylinder and IC. Still too much choke!Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Attachment 31947 yes they can
Quote:
Originally Posted by can-man
I don't know kinda looks like your the one sent out to retrieve. If that's the case your dog has you trained well. LOL
?????You must hunt in a strange area, everything is horizontal , even the dog and the hunter , is there a strange magnetic field there or something ?Quote:
Originally Posted by can-man
Lol....haha
Given your location status, I am pretty confident we hunt in similar habitats. I was in your position eight years ago; I wanted a dog that I could use to hunt waterfowl most of the time but also wanted a dog that I could use to chase grouse and rabbits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I was initially interested in the DD but after having conversations with one breeder from the Canadian DD group he suggested that for a first time owner, his breeding may be too much for me to handle. In hindsight, I most certainly could have handled the breed(ing) but I heeded his advice and looked to my second choice which was the Wirehaired Pointing Griffon.
The griffon was bred specifically as an all purpose, all game hunting breed specializing in the marshy habitats of Holland (although developed primarily in France and Germany). In terms of the versatile pointing breeds they are one of the closest and slowest (most methodical) working breeds. This doesn't do you any good on the parries but is excellent trait to have in woodcock cover or for finding downed birds in the thickest cattails.
In the house they are a bit of a hunting dog paradox, they seemingly more similar to a cat than a hunting dog.
You mentioned in one of your replies that you may have some cost sensitivities; if you are hesitant at the cost of a well bred dog in the range of $600-$1000 then you are better off relying on waders and a canoe. By the time your dog has been to the vet for all of its' check ups, toys purchased, kennels purchased, food for a year, etc., you will already have spent more than the original cost of the dog. Further to that, if a 3-6 hour drive is enough to persuade you to another breed then you are missing the mark all together (pun intended) and you may as well go to the nearest shelter and secure a rescue.
If you look into the Griffon further and would like to see two of them in person, we can line up in the spring and I can show you what they can do. Another option is to get in touch with Ottawa Valley NAVHDA and come out to a couple of their winter/spring training events to see many different breeds in a training scenario. The group meets nearly monthly and usually in the Richmond area.
-Drew
awesome post, Drew (except the Griffon recommendation, just kidding ;) )
great summaryQuote:
Originally Posted by jobbershunting
Hunting with dogs is different - very rewarding, no matter if you bag game or not. and sometimes you have to take the second seatQuote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
there's always another side to each coin. I haven't seen many dog fights in my life (just a few during large party hunts when I was a kid) - all that I can still remember is that at least one of the participants was a GWP/DDQuote:
Originally Posted by Gunner 38
good advise for a flusher, but a pointer a "sticky" pointer is pretty useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
on the other hand, I know of some who got versatile pointers and trained them like flusher as they were uncomfortable with far ranging dogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobbershunting
Excellent post! :thumbup:
Waftrudnir, the dog you are referring to is better known as the "flointer" AKA "plusher" - a dog whose performance usually is best described as being at the heart of a VERY frustrating hunt, followed by either a speeding ticket or a fight in the Timmies on the way home. More-often-than-not, these dogs are 35-40% successful in a synthetic environment and 8-12% successful in a wild bird environment. They are often best identified by the handler whose raging expletives are often shared in the adjacent provinces/states.
The upside is the handler and team (need a team to have any success) get lots of shooting. Do not misinterpret this to mean lots of birds, I said, ".....lots of shooting."
Well...there has been a VERY broad response to the OPs question, to-say-the-least. I don't think anyone is surprised.
It is heart warming to hear how much we all stand by our own personal choice of breeds. Not sure how much we've helped the OP but.............heart warming none-the-less. A friend once swore his best grouse dog EVER was his German shepherd. Don't see many of them listed in the bird dog classifieds.
The range of a competent pointer is rarely an issue (more often dictated by species, environment, time of year, hunting pressure, etc.) although extreme independence can be a really big problem. That said, pointers were never meant to be - nor do they maximize their intended effectiveness as close working dogs, ala flointer/plusher.
If I were the OP, I would lean towards a retriever, springer or cocker, in my opinion.
No, I do not own one myself although........hmmmm.........?
Got to disagree with you there. The way you hunt with your pointer is your choice. No need to slam those who prefer a different style.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugo
As you said a pointer's range is never an issue on that I agree however there are occasions I need the dog working tight to be effective. More than happy to read some of your hunts this year in the thread "request for more upland stories" and compare hunts.
Not saying that others can't hunt with a style other than there breed of dog was bred for, but most handlers would have their dog work as it was designed to work.
I've seen lots of guys with "good bird dogs" totally blown away by what a trained dog can do and by how efficiently and effectively it finds *every* bird in the terrain it covers.
If a guy is using a pointer to flush birds, that would have a lot of people scratching their heads - similar to an unsteady spaniel running wild. It might work, sort of, well, maybe sometimes. But it could be done far, far, far better with some training. And most gundog guys would rather see good dog work and not get birds than blast away at wild flushes by unsteadying dogs.
Exactly. I could never understand why people bought "pointing Labs". If you want a pointing dog get a pointing breed. My Britt will retrieve ducks but that breed can't stop moving for more than 15 seconds how would that be a good choice when trying to stay concealed in a blind? I think the OP needs to seriously look at a versatile breed.
Werner, you are spot on!!!
finfurfeathers, I concede - you make a good point. There are dogs, guns, equipment, styles for us all. I apologize if I wasn't clear.
A capable/experienced pointing dog should adjust to the hunting opportunities that are provided to said dog if this dog understands the expectation. This does include some direction from the owner however "range" is a much misrepresented victim. As such, range is rarely too far or too close. More-often-than-not, "range" is a word I often link to poor training or an unclear expectation (dog).
A dog that embraces the teamwork of a successful hunt realizes that success on say, grouse in early season that does not provide an opportunity for a shot simply means we got it wrong. Keep in mind that NO dog gets it right all the time.
A pointer is often developed by what is successful in the owner's eyes. So, if you hunt a certain way, on certain birds, and have certain expectations, you are doing it right. Hey, I know a chap that had the stunning stock on a Beretta EELL removed and replaced with a custom-fitted expensive gorgeous stock. Subsequently, he hacked up the custom stock because he felt it wasn't right either. Was he wrong? Yet another bragged that his dog was SO good, that sometimes, he didn't even have to waste a shot.
In my experience, people that have had a number of pointing dogs are too often unaware of the capabilities of a competent bird dog. What they do know is how their previous dogs worked and how some were better than others and how some dogs learn to adjust to THEIR preferred methods easier. Killing birds is at the forefront and success is often measured that way - strictly as a number. And that is why there is usually something for us all. As you know, in some areas of southern Ontario one could hunt for 3 hours and find 2 grouse while in northern Ontario one could hunt 3 hours and find 16. Are we to assume that in the second example the dog is superior? He actually might be perceived to be, because of the exponentially greater opportunities for handling grouse but not because he is a superior dog.
Furthermore, a decent pointer will automatically adjust from dense early season hardwoods to the prairies simply because it is defined by experience/success and not just range.
As for the flointer/plusher I stand by my opinion. It's not a flusher and this is where what would normally be relatively decent range for a pointer takes a hit. You will rarely get range right with this dog and over-handling means lost birds. It's not a pointer either because it flushes unpredictably meaning you might have a shot or......??? (This is where the team of fellow hunters comesin, I guess.) If the cover is dense or if once again range takes the blame, the birds flush too far for a decent shot. 20 yards in early season is HUGE. 20 yards in late season is virtually useless - the species/terrain is the determining factor, not the dog. I re-iterate, over-handling means lost birds. If this is your preferred way to hunt - you are doing it 100% right. If you're happy.... Just don't start a fight in the parking lot at Timmies, please!
I sincerely believe that FAR too many pointing dog owners should have flushers, rather than flointers. At least flushers are VERY good at what they do and provide lots of opportunities for successful shooting, if you haven't hacked up your custom stock. :)
There is were you got it a bit wrong. An unsteady spaniel is a product of poor training where as a pointer that flushes on command is a product of training.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
The "on command" part is the part that I didn't get. So the dog points, and after you walk up to it, it flushes on command. That's not a problem...but why is range an issue then?Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
Finfurfeathers, I just want you to know it was not my intention to "slam" anyone. Good question Werner!
Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Range is not an issue for me. Simply I like to see my dog work the point is secondary. Not much enjoyment for me if I don't have eyes on the dog. She could point a dozen birds but if I didn't see the work leading up to it kind really not that satisfying.
So the dog doesn't point? How do you flush on command then?Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
I like watching a flusher work, but part of that work is being rock-steady on the flush.
Without that, there's no safe shot, which makes the first part of the work of little use - a job only half done.
About the over-handling - if you have to handle a dog too much, then its not the dogs finding the birds...it's the handler using the dogs to find birds...as one trainer told me, if you're going to do that, you might as well just throw rocks in the brush to flush the birds... He could be a bit harsh with pointing things out.
Didn't say the dog doesn't point. What I said I prefer too see the work leading up to it. Once on point than I decide how to approach. With a wing man the set up is easy shooter in position, dog on point handler flushes bird. Own my own there are times when the cover necessitates the dog to flush the bird while I'm out in the shooting lane. That's a skill I train into my dog as it works for me. Saying a pointer that flushes on command is any less of a pointer doesn't work for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Ugo
Is it common enough that there is actually a name for it or did you just come up with that?
Maybe the reason was that people didn't understand the two different concepts well enough to switch from one to the other. However, I doubt that nowadays someone spends a small fortune on a pup without reading up on what they are intended for and watch a video of what that actually looks like.
I think one issue affecting versatile breeds is that folks don't pay much attention in what order they train the dog on different types of hunting. A problem one will never have with a specialist. Kind of shows once more that it is important to know what you really need before choosing a breed.
[QUOTEFinfurfeathers,
Got to disagree with you there. The way you hunt with your pointer is your choice. No need to slam those who prefer a different style.
As you said a pointer's range is never an issue on that I agree however there are occasions I need the dog working tight to be effective. More than happy to read some of your hunts this year in the thread "request for more upland stories" and compare hunts. [/QUOTE] fff
Mercy. Ugo "slamming" someone's choice. Now that's funny.:rolleyes: Anyone who knows Ugo , knows he's very cautious about offending anyone.
Let's get back to the excellent discussion.
Just finished reading this thread.
A Brittany is just as capable as any other dog to sit calmly in a blind.
A dog that flushes on command will more than likely start taking birds out on their own, especially when out of sight. So persue this at your own risk.
To hunt a pointing dog most effectively they need to be able to work independently and out of sight. They also need to be trained to level that they can be trusted on game when out of sight. I find the ideal range for hunting pointing dogs on grouse is around 100yds to 150yds. When your dog is in visual range, you have the hunter and the dog putting pressure on the game. A good, fast dog that works farther to the front can get to the game faster and get it pinned before it gets pushed out.
A video some might enjoy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...PI&app=desktop
Loved that video Sharon! Yup, there is something for us all.
Actually Wafrudnir, I did come up with those names (flointer/plusher) as I have seen many - too many over the years. You make a good point about seeking out the right dog. Many years ago, when I knew even less about breeding than I do now, I had a litter of setters here. A chap came by interested in buying a pup. When he arrived, we spoke about his preferred hunting species. Subsequently, I declined selling him a pup. He wasn't very happy when he left BUT he came back some time later to show me his wonderful Lab. He couldn't thank me enough.
There is nothing wrong with a pointing dog that you send in for the flush. It requires dedicated training and unwavering consistency in maintaining that style of performance. Most folk just want to go out for the occasional recreational hunting and can't be bothered.
As I said, if you hunt woodcock by yourself, you know how challenging it can be to crawl through the hawthorn/dogwoods to flush AND still try to get off a decent shot.
If this is your preferred style of hunting, you should do exactly that. Life's too short to hunt unhappily.
that's impressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharon
Yup now that's what I'm talking about. For me this is what I would consider great dog work.
The solution is to use a flushing dog, which will reliably flush that bird for you ... usually while you're crawling through the hawthorn/dogwoods, in no position to get off a decent shot.... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugo
I guess I better jump in on this again and give you all a better idea of what is going on in my head.
Ok, first off, I do not like crating a dog when I am away but I also will not have a dog running free range around my house, at least not at the start, so our plan is to have a 10x10 kennel with nice dog house setup around our livestock so that when we go off to work in the morning we can put the dog outside with a little space. We are gone about 9 hours, I think that is too long to expect the dog to hold it.
Due to this I need to have a dog that has a coat on it so that it can buck the weather.
We also do not want to have a large dog, I had been toying with the idea of a lab but labs now get massive and I really don't want to deal with a monster dog. We do most of our waterfowl hunting over fields and ducks over water would be one of the least used tasks that the dog would have, just nice to be able to have something that would like the water and retrieve in water as a secondary thing. This is why I am not so worried about sitting still, most water ducks for me would be jump shot anyway on small marshes and in the fall not the winter, I don't like ice, something about being in the water when it is so cold it would kill me fast makes me uneasy.
I like the idea of a pointer because of my experience with my favourite beagle. Buster was no good for deer but he really liked to be in the bush with me and would range close. When we would get into good terrain he almost started to go birdy, it was weird to watch a 13in beagle nose down hunting a game bird but on many occasions this is what he would do. I could watch him go and get an idea of where the bird would be but the flushing mentality generally did not give me a chance to get the shot at the angle that I would have liked. I would love to be able to walk up on a bird pointed by my dog in a way that gave me the best chance at a shot.
We also have a cat and we have livestock, I cannot have a dog that is so crazy that makes our cat go nuts or terrorize the animals, I know that this is something of training as they grow up but some of this is built in.
So based on this and what I like as a breed from being around them I have a list of dogs that I would love to own but why they may not work.
German Short Haired Pointer - I would love one but the short hair hurts them for the weather
Lab - The breed standard it too big, flushing dog, roudy when young and not aware of their size
Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retreiver - Very costly, hard to find with hunting genetics, insane and documented anxiety issues
Springer Spaniel - Flusher rather than a pointer, I have been told that they end up being a single person dog often, larger at 50-55lbs
Brittany Spaniel - A little small for geese, does not want to sit still, can be over sensitive to training
Due to all of this I am really leaning towards the Brittany, I know a few of the other breeds mentioned need to be examined but being south of Ottawa travel is something to be considered, I have no problem putting a few hours in to go get a dog but having to bring something in from out of province or out of country is not going to happen for us.
The breeds you mentioned can all be sourced within Ontario with great breeders.
Fox, you’re definitely on the right track and you’re asking yourself the right questions, incl. what the dog will do when you don’t go hunting.
The breeds you listed could not be more different in their traits (as you already noted yourself). It’s highly unlikely that any of them will hunt like that one beagle you mentioned. Great memories for sure, but you will have to open another chapter at this point.
Better be sure you decide on and somewhat commit to the type of hunting you want to do (at least initially). Rank the type of hunting by the days you actually will be out there together with the dog. Only after that I would make a (long) list of suitable breeds and then start cutting back.
By the way, I share similar thoughts when it comes to short-haired dogs in our climate, which unfortunately is a limitation of great breeds like DK/GS or VI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I just went through a lot of research in picking up a Brittany (and I'm still reading a lot as I progress). Here's a couple of my non-expert comments.
1) I was really worried about size with one of my other dogs. It was really a lot of worrying for nothing. I had a very small house when I acquired her, plus another dog, plus traveling in a travel trailer alot and I was certain that anything over 35-40 lbs would be unruly. She's 50lbs full grown and that extra 10-15 means nothing now. When they are inside and calm, they take up and require very little space. When they are unruly, well the 20lb Brittany pup takes the cake right now.
2) I wouldn't be worried about the GSP and short hair. I can't imagine they are any better or worse than a Brittany and irrespective of that, given a dry, out of the wind place to retreat to and I think any dog would easily manage 9 hours even in the coldest days of Ottawa. My terrier, with a horrible coat, will curl up in the snow by me while I'm chopping wood at -15 (with full option to go inside) and show no ill effect.
3) There are a bunch of other versatile breeds as well, such as small munsterlander, pudelpointer, even variance in the Brittany (french). So plenty of variety.
Good luck with your search.
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German Short Haired Pointer - I would love one but the short hair hurts them for the weather][/QUOTE]
Not trying to change your mind on your selection of breed, because the Brittany is a great dog. But just to clarify for others reading this. The German Shorthair pointer is very capable of handling cold weather. I own a six year old female that I kennel out doors all year, she has a insulated dog house that she can go in any time but spends most of the day hanging out, out side of it. Evan in minus temps. I hunt her thru the whole season finishing off on Rabbits at the end of February. Never an issue with cold, no jacket nothing. Yes the GSP has a short coat but a lot of people don't know about them, is that they have a layer of down next to there skin, under there fur. Its got a lot to do with conditioning them as well. Only task I don't recommend them for is retrieving from icy water, A GSP will be fine for jump shooting winter ducks as it will by able to move around and stay warm while you walk and search for more ducks. Mine has done this a lot with no problems, but sitting in one spot while in wait for more birds to come in the dog will get cold in minus temps if its already been in the icy water and wet. This is my experience with the GSP in the cold.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR2wc5AAKpE
Spaniels a single person dog? Not from what I've seen. 55lbs is a big springer. My ESS was a medium male, 45 lbs, and both my daughters could handle him. Note: make sure other people handling your dog have precise instructions on how to handle him or he'll start doing strange things - usually undesirable things.
Good idea with the outdoor kennel.
That's what I have - so the dog is either in the house when someone is home, in a crate overnight, or outside in a kennel when no-one is around. The kennel is 4x4 inside and 4x12 outside.
That is my target, I know I will have to work with my wife to make sure she knows how to handle the dog. I had a room mate who had a troubled dog, a ridgeback, when he went away for a month and paid me to take care of it I took an evil dog that bit at me to something I could have sit and stay for as long as I wanted and do exactly as I wanted, the moment he got back the dog went back to evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
I am anxious to have something that works for me but I will not rush in to this and end up with an expensive mouth to feed with no use.
If your not in a rush spend some time this year and go see some dogs work. I think there are trials and tests for most of the breeds you might be interested in. Its great to get opinions from other people, but if you go and see different styles of dogs work, you will get a good idea of what you like and what you don't.
Fox, I'll only mention it one more time but without a doubt the best thing you can do for yourself and your future dog (whatever breed you go with) is to come out to a NAVHDA training day in Richmond (about 30 mins north of you) and see several Vdogs work.
From there you can ask the handlers all your breed specific questions, handle the dogs, observe their temperaments, and see which would suit your needs the best with your own eyes, hands and ears.
The Ottawa NAVHDA group currently has; britanys, pudlepointers, german shorthairs (& DKs), german wirehairs (& DDs), munsterlanders, griffons, an english setter, a gordon setter and a couple wirehaired and smoothhaired vizlas.
I wish everyone did their homework that well. :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
( Often lab breeders have small sized pups born that can still be great gundogs. I had a setter runt born once that no one chose. I kept her and she's an amazing hunter. .. see avatar.)
I actually prefer the runts.
just be forewarned that your wife will fall in love with your Brittany. They are a breed that crave human companionship and want to please. They are hunting machines but total friken hams in the house. They also have a very strong prey drive and mine dispatches every cottontail that gets through our fence. He even took on a skunk that got in too. I can't Imagine "not" owning a Brittany anymore. I have the Rick Smith puppy development Vol 1 & 2 training DVDs. If you want them you are welcome to borrow them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I also think a proper daytime outdoor kennel and indoor night time is ideal.
Of note - all these hunting breeds are "rowdy when young". Gun dogs are bred to have huge energy stores and high drive.... to the average person this generally translates to rowdiness or hyperness. As for size - in any breed you can find lines within the size you are looking for, even labs. There are plenty of small labs out there that max out at 50-55 lbs. Look more at lines are parentage than generalizations. A britt sounds like a good choice for what you're after.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
CptSydor, just want to make sure I understood correctly. You have a 50-55 lb. Brittany female?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugo
Sorry, I looked back and it was ambiguous. I have a 50lb cattle dog mix.
Among the different breeds of hunting-dogs (which I owned) I used to have a American Water-Spaniel who was a WATER-spaniel only by name . He loathed water but was a damn good pointer and retriever on land . --- It was probably my fault that he was "water-shy" . When he was ~ 5 months of age I took him for an "off-leash-walk" along the pier (Whitby Harbour) . There used to be big (12"x12" ???) wooden beams at the edge of the pier . Suddenly he "spied" a gull sitting ~ 50' ahead of us on one of the beams . He took a running-leap at the gull and ended up in the water . --- A drop of 12 to 15 feet and the water was rough and icy (early spring) . I managed to "fish" him back out again ; however , since then he never went into water again . --- My German Wirehaired Pointer was just the opposite , it was "hard" to keep him out of the water . --- Many times , when I dove of a ~ 30' high rock at our camp , he'd be right "on top of me" without being coaxed . --- As gutsy as he was , he would have attempted to retrieve a hippo . --- Lol ---
That pretty much describes my English Springer Spaniel . lolQuote:
Originally Posted by terrym