Incident near Exeter

Now, no one please head to my house with pitch forks and torches. But this is my opinion on this incident that happened yesterday. I do not know the people involved but just think before you want to lynch this guy.

These are clearly foxhounds/coyote dogs that have been culled. It was an irresponsible location for the people to dump the dogs and for that there should be consequences.

But culling is used on everything from chickens to race horses. Has been since man has owned animals and always will be. It happens everyday.

Usually animals are culled for a responsible reason wether its genetic defects that do not want to be passed on generations or the simple act that the animal doesn't preform. Or simply old age, I believe it can cost up to $200 for a vet to euthanize a dog.

Is it illegal to put down your own animal? I don't think so. Is it illegal to shoot your neighbours dog? yes i think so.

So is the person a responsible HUNTING/WORKING dog owner? Working on bettering his breed or line of hunting dogs for the future? YES 100%.

Was it smart to dump them in a public location? Absolutely not.

Now everyone that thinks a hunting dog can be re-homed to another responsible person is absolutely ridiculous and is not living in a real world. Just because these are dogs doesn't mean it can live in a house like a poodle. How would a high strung race horse make out if you wanted it for your children to ride? Not well

I have tried to keep calm and not rant, just look at a few aspects of this situation that the media are leaving out.

If you think that the $2000 reward is justified and this guy should be hunted down than you do not belong on this forum in any section. Because shooting a dog in the head humanely is no different than taking a fish out of water, shooting a deer, or trapping beaver.

Heres the link to a rather unbiased article:
http://www.am980.ca/2016/01/20/dogs-found-deceased/

Lets please try to keep this thread civil.

Wow. There could very well be a good reason why the dogs were put down, sometimes even if distasteful to many it's the best thing to do for the dog. But what a friken idiot for doing it this way.

This was my thought. These dogs were shot rather than being put down. If it was done humanely, there's actually no offence here, so it's not clear what the reward is for.

The problem is that vets increasingly would refuse to put dogs down just because the owner asks for it. Attitudes towards dogs are different than towards other domestic animals. It doesn't have to be logical; it's a cultural reality. And within a few years, I expect culling dogs in this way will become illegal, because laws change to reflect the culture that creates them.

Exactly my point. No issue culling your own dogs. An issue could lie in where they were dumped. As far as I'm concerned a bullet or a injection is both quick. Bullet probably quicker from my experiences.

Reward I guess Is for finding the guy. But as far as punishment, maybe a fine for dumping?

I don't find it wrong that this person put the dogs down him self and hopefully it was for good reason, but I do find it wrong that they dumped it in a public spot.

I was in hay swamp two weeks ago. Glad I didn't come across this.

I hope when someone decides to cull there dogs they have exhausted all other avenues, but sometimes it's what needs to be done i'm sure. Doing so in the privacy of your property is what should have happened though, dumping them in public is just wrong. Let alone a place full of dog walkers and rabbit hunters with dogs.

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If you think that the $2000 reward is justified and this guy should be hunted down than you do not belong on this forum in any section. Because shooting a dog in the head humanely is no different than taking a fish out of water, shooting a deer, or trapping beaver.

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I am actually going to disagree and say, I think this guy should be found and charged with everything he can be. Because I'm a rabid animal rights lover? Nope. I'm old school and believe if your going to make a decision to put a pet down (what ever the reason)...do it yourself.

When will we learn (whether this person is a hunter or not doesn't matter because people are assuming he is, therefore guilty by association if not fact). That

stuff like this gives us all black eyes and the "Anti's" ammunition.
Whether it's people posting ill advised ( Gorey, blood filled hero shots) on FB, or Cecils, or poaching Moose/deer, etc.

Would "we" not be "irate" if rather dogs, these were Whitetails?
There aren't to my knowledge laws against putting pets down oneself, there are laws about how to dispose of them.

If we are going to talk the walk...and claim that we are responsible, get just as upset when someone breaks laws, etc, etc.
Than we should walk the walk to.

Aside from dumping animals to rot...All this is going to do is give the Antis fuel for their fires and ammunition.

I could never be a houndsman.

"If you think that the $2000 reward is justified and this guy should be hunted down than you do not belong on this forum in any section. Because shooting a dog in the head humanely is no different than taking a fish out of water, shooting a deer, or trapping beaver."

Sorry have to disagree with the above statement. To say that we don't belong on a forum like this doesn't fly well with me or others. Our disagreement is not so much that 3 dogs were put down but rather the dumping of said dogs in a public place.....how stupid is that! I actually believe people who do these things need to be held accountable as their actions do not reflect the general feelings of the regular hunters/fishermen on a typical forum.

Your analogy to fish/deer/beaver is very fraught. How would you feel if all those were dumped in a public ditch??

I would take exception if the perpetrator was identified as a hunter....we don't know that, it certainly could have been any a^& hole dealing with unwanted pets. Never the less a very stupid thing to do.

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Originally Posted by JBen

stuff like this gives us all black eyes and the "Anti's" ammunition.

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Yes. When the perennially pending animal cruelty bill passes, incidents like this will be the reason.

Krakadawn you hit the nail on the head. thank you Sir

This brings me back in time. When I was 16 I was out hunting rabbits , one the property where the Windsor Raceway is or was now.
I came across 12 dead beagle s dead in the ditch, all had their belly's cut open.
I reported it to the police .
They investigated it and found an address on a box that contained some of the dogs.
Turns out they were all killed by a veterinarian that was testing out poison to euthanize dogs.
We were told the dump was closed and he just dumped them there.
That was back in 1964

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Originally Posted by bardern

I could never be a houndsman.

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I hear ya.

When I started to deer hunt in my early 20's it was in one of those traditional camps that used hounds to chase the deer. I hunted with those guys for 5 years. Every year they brought new dogs to camp. If the new dogs didn't catch on they were eliminated at the end of the week. I never got the details of the methods for elimination however I knew they were no longer around so I put the pieces together. No way I could do that to a hunting dog.

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Originally Posted by bellerivercrossbowhunter

I hear ya.

When I started to deer hunt in my early 20's it was in one of those traditional camps that used hounds to chase the deer. I hunted with those guys for 5 years. Every year they brought new dogs to camp. If the new dogs didn't catch on they were eliminated at the end of the week. I never got the details of the methods for elimination however I knew they were no longer around so I put the pieces together. No way I could do that to a hunting dog.

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It's not just Houndsmen. Any reputable working dog breeder culls to better their breed. It's in most breed organizations standards. Not mention every livestock farmer, it's a regular thing.

How would you feel if you wanted to buy a hunting dog and you got sold a cull from a 'dog trader'. You wouldn't be happy that you got screwed and now you got a dog that doesn't do what it was bred or sold to do. Especially when your talking thousands of dollars. So do you want culls going around in your breed? No

And anyone that thinks killing (HUMANELY) a wild animal is any different than a domesticated animal is not being realistic or has their head buried up their a*s so far they think there's a difference. Your sh** stinks too buddy.

If this was a hunter who shot his own dogs then the only thing I see wrong is the fact he dumped them in a public spot.

I am not saying anything against houndsmen per say the good ones I know treat dogs very ethical. My friends who run hounds keep them very clean, well fed but they don't get a lot of interaction most of the year.

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Originally Posted by 69firebird

It's not just Houndsmen. Any reputable working dog breeder culls to better their breed.

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Not true.

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Originally Posted by 69firebird

And anyone that thinks killing (HUMANELY) a wild animal is any different than a domesticated animal is not being realistic or has their head buried up their a*s so far they think there's a difference. Your sh** stinks too buddy.

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May I take it your request to "keep it civil" has now expired?

I know someone that breeds champion Tollers. These are part of the same family.

look close, I'm sure you can see it.
http://jbenphotography.ca/img/s/v-2/p11187502-5.jpg


One from the litter this year, well had some problems. They won't just sell it to anyone, very picky they are being despite many serious offers for it. Nope, only the right people will get it.

Far as I know they haven't culled it, or any.http://jbenphotography.ca/img/s4/v65/p1464091759-5.jpg

Two great replies Welsh.

Great pics JB. Lots of love in those pictures.

Welsh- you are right about the 'civil' part I apologize. I just can't stay quiet when someone is being unrealistic.

Also let me re-phrase-- Any successful reputable working/hunting dog breeder culls. You have to if you want to maintain a standard.

Maybe some don't but they are selling even the poor ones for the extra cash. And I wouldn't call them reputable.

JB -Every litter has bad ones no matter the titles behind the sire and dam. You sir if you have whole litters that are winners, you should be writing books on genetics, have a room full of trophies and promoting your dogs world wide.

I think most people understand putting pets down ( not for me to judge their reasons). I think most of us are bothered or more that they were simply dumped like yesterdays trash....or dumped in a public spot...to rot.

We might disagree on what we think should happen. Nothing to charges for the dump and why.

In that, I suspect most will agree.

Yes they are dogs but they should be treated with respect , even in death.

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Originally Posted by 69firebird

It's not just Houndsmen. Any reputable working dog breeder culls to better their breed. It's in most breed organizations standards. Not mention every livestock farmer, it's a regular thing.

How would you feel if you wanted to buy a hunting dog and you got sold a cull from a 'dog trader'. You wouldn't be happy that you got screwed and now you got a dog that doesn't do what it was bred or sold to do. Especially when your talking thousands of dollars. So do you want culls going around in your breed? No

And anyone that thinks killing (HUMANELY) a wild animal is any different than a domesticated animal is not being realistic or has their head buried up their a*s so far they think there's a difference. Your sh** stinks too buddy.

If this was a hunter who shot his own dogs then the only thing I see wrong is the fact he dumped them in a public spot.

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Firebird, you seem to be very agitated about this. Don't think any one spoke against 'culling' and certainly if you've been victim to an unscrupulous 'trader', then that's unfortunate.
Let me explain to you how many breeders 'cull'. Its simple they simply do not breed unfit candidates. That is determined by sound health clearances as well as performance such that culling by 'killing' doesn't happen.

I realize we have people always trying to make a buck and will breed and sell anything but here's the caveat.........check out the dog before you buy it. We've been through this so many times......health clearances/pedigrees/observe parents etc. There is absolutely no need for someone to be on the hook for that amount of cash when buying a dog.

Remember, this isn't about killing an animal in any legal hunting situation........no one is disputing or arguing about that. What's at stake here is that some person has done a stupid thing. We've all learned that stupid people do stupid things! This situation should have nothing to do with hunters or houndsmen in particular.

Let's keep the focus on the act that was committed.

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Originally Posted by 69firebird

Any successful reputable working/hunting dog breeder culls.

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By putting dogs down?

Not true. The same end is achieved by simply not breeding those dogs. They end up going to hunters who don't necessarily want fire-breathing, trial-winning dogs. It isn't always necessary to put down dogs that don't make the grade.

I'd point out also that the universe of working dogs extends to police dogs, cadaver dogs, and so forth. Breeders don't cull dogs that fail to make the grade in that world. They simply wash them out of their training programs and find them other homes.

Exactly Welsh. They find the right buyer for the not up to par "runt", no matter how long it take. And they still remove it from the gene pool. :)

Again, lets all start from the common shared love of dogs.
Thanks G pet/dog photography is fast becoming one of my favorite things
:)

Off topic your right again

I do not agree with working dogs going to live In residential 9-5 homes. That being said I have a beautiful B&T that I've been trying to sell for showing cause she's not interested in hunting. Well it's been 6 months and everyone just wants a pet.

I breed for those 'fire breathing' dogs and I am very conscious on the sire and dam I choose to re produce and unfortunately I still get poor dogs that I would never want to sell as a 'hunting' dog. and definitely not as a pet. I have books on genetics and research bloodlines to great lengths. Double up on the good and fix the poor issues.

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Originally Posted by 69firebird

Off topic your right again

I do not agree with working dogs going to live In residential 9-5 homes. That being said I have a beautiful B&T that I've been trying to sell for showing cause she's not interested in hunting. Well it's been 6 months and everyone just wants a pet.

I breed for those 'fire breathing' dogs and I am very conscious on the sire and dam I choose to re produce and unfortunately I still get poor dogs that I would never want to sell as a 'hunting' dog. and definitely not as a pet. I have books on genetics and research bloodlines to great lengths. Double up on the good and fix the poor issues.

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I'd say you're the only one here living outside reality or holding to unreasonable expectations. If highly developed, bred for k9 work dogs wash out of training and are successfully re-homed as family pets or "easier" workers (therapy & development aid dogs) by the THOUSANDS every year... there is no need to kill yours. Unless you're breeding one of the 3 dog breeds on the whole planet that are so aggressive they simply can't be trusted around people. But, you're not.

One of the best pet dogs I ever met was a Black & Tan that was a very, VERY poor hunter. Just the friendliest hound you could ever meet. Physically he was the epitome of the breed, but just didn't have that drive to hunt. Turned into the best dog the new family ever had.

As others have said, you cull the genetics by not breeding the sub-par animals. It ends there.

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Originally Posted by welsh

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They end up going to hunters who don't necessarily want fire-breathing, trial-winning dogs. It isn't always necessary to put down dogs that don't make the grade.
...

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that is a really good point.
a "lot of dog" can be a lot of trouble too.
if you are able to continue to invest in the dog (training, socialization, etc.) you might harvest the fruits later, but if not ???

and I disagree with the statement of the OP, that dogs cannot be rehomed! it really depends on the dog and the home. certainly agree that many homes are not suitable for a high strung dog, and some dogs are too unpredictable (especially those little pet rats that as miraculously excluded from the "dangerous dog" debates)
additionally, hunters tend to buy pups (a clean slate avoids trouble) and some humane societies are not hunter-friendly (ill minded ideology),
so yes a lot of good hunting dogs will be put down - unnecessarily IMHO

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Originally Posted by 69firebird

....I breed for those 'fire breathing' dogs ....

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and how do you screen the new owners?
the dog is only one end of the equation and you need to match up both sides!

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Originally Posted by Oddmott

... If highly developed, bred for k9 work dogs wash out of training and are successfully re-homed as family pets or "easier" workers (therapy & development aid dogs) by the THOUSANDS every year....

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reading up on service dogs is time well spent; there's a lot to be learnt and most of it is well proven for many decades!
the issue is not new at all: A while ago, I read an about 75 year old book on (hunting) dog training, which describes the disconnect between training of (military) service dogs and hunting dogs. Nothing has changed...

I don't see why this guy wouldn't just put a ad on kijiji? Free to a good home. Unless they where aggressive or something like that. Dumping them in the open like that, come on man use your head. At least bury them out of sight.

I have met and know many houndsman and alaskan sled dog breeders and racers that use to say they could not place these animals in a home for various reasons and put them down. But fortunately for these 2 particular breeds this mindset has quickly been changing in the last 15 or so years. I know of many people that have taken hounds as well as alaskan huskies and worked on socializing these animals to be pets or hobby working homes. Some kennels that exist today will only take reject working dogs and turn them into super star sled dogs. It's all about educating the ignorant and surrounding yourself will knowledgeable people that can assist you. I have personally placed a few working sled dogs in pet homes (free of charge)because they did not meet my expectations and could not be included in a breeding program.They turned out to be amazing pets and companions. By shooting healthy dogs and dumping them in a public place is stupidity at it's highest level.

Given the nation-wide attention this story has received, I have no doubt that the person behind it will soon be located. If you keep or breed hounds in those numbers, your neighbours or peers know about it. It won't take long for 2+2 to be put together.

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Originally Posted by JBen

I am actually going to disagree and say, I think this guy should be found and charged with everything he can be. Because I'm a rabid animal rights lover? Nope. I'm old school and believe if your going to make a decision to put a pet down (what ever the reason)...do it yourself.

When will we learn (whether this person is a hunter or not doesn't matter because people are assuming he is, therefore guilty by association if not fact). That

stuff like this gives us all black eyes and the "Anti's" ammunition.
Whether it's people posting ill advised ( Gorey, blood filled hero shots) on FB, or Cecils, or poaching Moose/deer, etc.

Would "we" not be "irate" if rather dogs, these were Whitetails?
There aren't to my knowledge laws against putting pets down oneself, there are laws about how to dispose of them.

If we are going to talk the walk...and claim that we are responsible, get just as upset when someone breaks laws, etc, etc.
Than we should walk the walk to.

Aside from dumping animals to rot...All this is going to do is give the Antis fuel for their fires and ammunition.

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So many good posts. I was wanting to say that Mr Ben, but didn't have the courage. Thanks.

Breeding and training beagles from 1956- 85 with my Dad , resulted in some dogs having to be culled. It was a part of life then. They weren't thrown in a ditch and left.

We didn't have the options back then, as there are to day , to rehome a dog ; I think today every effort should be made to give the dog a life elsewhere.

Sometimes though - I've had 2 JRT rescues that could not be safe with anyone else. One I had put down , the other is on a short line.

Dad taught me too that "they should be treated with respect , even in death. " quote fisherman mccan

Try to sell anything on kijiji and you get a lot of bums looking for something free. They flood your email. It's almost harder re homing a cull. I'm still trying cause. I'm not quick to pull the trigger but I do have discretion.

Little story to put all this in perspective.A number of years ago I was assigned to work at the Brock Landfill site in Pickering trying to locate the chopped up remains of a transvestite escort who had a bad date and ended up dead.

We worked there for 3 months shifting through tons of garbage and opening the bags.One day the grabber spun up a bunch of dead dogs,poodles,labs... all flying through the air,most still with their collars on.

So these were just family pets that had been put down and because the vets/humane societies did not have the incinerator they had been dumped in the garbage.Out of sight out of mind.

I don,t know what the families that once owned these pets were told about disposal,but I do not believe they thought their pet would end up in that last resting place.

PS We never did find our body .

In relation to the OP if some efforts were made to re home the dogs I,am good with the cull. But at least dispose of the poor dogs with some dignity and respect of the same kind the dogs probably displayed to their owner while alive.

Welsh is 100 percent correct!! I found 5 dogs all shot several years ago on the edge of a well used trail grouse hunting...it was a mess and by all appearances made everyone an "Elmer Fudd" with every NON hunter using that access trail. Notice I didn't say anti hunter...I'm sure several people who where not antis became several that week before the City cleaned them up..due to complaints.

When I read the article I had figured these dogs where shot by a land owner upset that these dogs were continually let out to run game across his land. I myself did not suspect this was done by the owner of the hounds.
Hounds get shot in the States all the time due to trespassing, running deer and anti hunters, it's a big problem in the States.

I read 4 pages of comments on here and everyone assumes these hounds were shot by the owner, it is possible that these dogs were shot by land owners or other territorial hunters, yes even in the head.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Little story to put all this in perspective.A number of years ago I was assigned to work at the Brock Landfill site in Pickering trying to locate the chopped up remains of a transvestite escort who had a bad date and ended up dead.

We worked there for 3 months shifting through tons of garbage and opening the bags.One day the grabber spun up a bunch of dead dogs,poodles,labs... all flying through the air,most still with their collars on.

So these were just family pets that had been put down and because the vets/humane societies did not have the incinerator they had been dumped in the garbage.Out of sight out of mind.

I don,t know what the families that once owned these pets were told about disposal,but I do not believe they thought their pet would end up in that last resting place.

PS We never did find our body .

In relation to the OP if some efforts were made to re home the dogs I,am good with the cull. But at least dispose of the poor dogs with some dignity and respect of the same kind the dogs probably displayed to their owner while alive.

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Wow that is an eye opener. When my Lab goes hopefully a long time from now her body will be laid to rest by me on my property. I trust no one but me to do it with dignity...