Not guilty of second degree murder ,not guilty of manslaughter ...Guilty of attempted murder. and aggravated assault.
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Not guilty of second degree murder ,not guilty of manslaughter ...Guilty of attempted murder. and aggravated assault.
He shot the kid 9 times and killed him. I think he was successful in his murder "attempt". I guess aggravated assault is all you get when a cop.
He was doing his jobQuote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Yes but not very well. Can't bring back the dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by sambo
You must be kidding.Quote:
Originally Posted by sambo
You cant put that much lead into someone just because your a cop.
Unbelievable and I've spoken to many LEO's about this, all shake their head.Quote:
Originally Posted by sambo
Seriously! I could see if the kid ran towards him but clearly he did not. Did he have a need to shoot him? Possibly but after he went down was there a need to empty his gun into him? I think not. Hard to believe he got off the manslaughter charge.Quote:
Originally Posted by sambo
I am glad he got convicted with something. I am a little surprised that he did not get off with "not guilty because of diminished capacity" or whatever the term is.... Obviously he wasn't of sound mind pulling the trigger so many times.....
Better training is definitely needed. I still feel bad for the dead boys family, must be horrible watching his execution over and over.
what would happen if you unladed your hand gun into a deer? probably 25 years in the pen
Not relevant, but thanks for your input.Quote:
Originally Posted by biggiemay
Sorry I don't agree with the sentiment here.
So this kid high on extasy and other drugs has a knife out and tried to slit a lady's throat then started screaming and came at a cop and the cop shot him....
Who of you have stood in the way of a madman with a knife and have had to make that hard choice?
Come on guys. We ask these fellows to stand between us and the bad guys then piss on them when a situation goes bad.
Would this have been different if the cop shot him right between the eyes with only one bullet. Or maybe if he had connected with the lady he tried to kill?
We can't treat our cops like this or none will be willing to deal with hard situations.
Just my opinion.
x 2 I totally agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
I think that's sort of the whole issue here? He did not come at the cop? He was on the bus. No danger to anyone but himself. The other officers on scene sure didn't start shooting because the guy was coming at them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
We didn't ask him to stand between us and them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
He applied for the job and is being paid to do a job.
With every dangerous job there are risks. There are S.O.P.s and protocol and training.
No matter if you are a Doctor , construction supervisor , cop or any other job that has serious consequences if you make mistakes you are held responsible for you actions.
Or at least you should be.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That Big jack is the "problem".
If and when they cross lines, and they aren't held accountable, the public loses trust, in them and in the system. The same applies to any profession be they Drs, "bankers", or politicians. Certain professions have a lot of "power" over the public be that authority as with leo, or the power to negativity affect their lives as with Drs and Bankers.
When a patient goes to see a Dr and the Dr tells them they have X problem and they need to go under the knife. They "trust" the Dr not to screw up..
When a client puts their financial well being/security in an Advisors hands, or in a banks vault. They trust that advisor, bank not to screw up their lives.
We in our profession understand how important it is to maintain that trust, as do Drs I think. Their regulatory body deals pretty harshly with those who cross lines. I know in mine, heads roll, or if not that, heavy and I do mean heavy fines for things that are fairly "minor". Often the person who screws up, and their superiors.
Leo?
Not so much
And one only need look south of the border to see where it leads. See also the growing distrust and ill will towards Wall Street.
I think the lady this violent guy tried to kill might disagree with you. She is lucky to be alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by stragglelake
Can't help but feel bad for the family of the fellow that got shot.
Could this cop have made a different choice - yes.
Was the knife wielding guy capable of getting off that bus and killing folks - yes he had already tried to kill someone on the bus.
None of us were faced with a knife wielding person that wouldn't back down on that day. We can all sit here with months to pick this apart and apply all the hind sight in the world but that cop had a few seconds to make the hard choice.
I support our police and our military. Always have. While there are a few bad apples in the bunch they deserve our support.
This guy was doing his job and I hope this incident doesn't stop other police from doing their job when hard choices have to be made. Your loved ones could pay the ultimate price for it.
Again just my opinion.
You can google "The public Trust" and it's importance. Most commonly discussions, philosophies will relate back to government. When the "public trust" in government erodes to a certain point. Well anarchy is the result and we are seeing signs of that in the States, accelerating signs these past 10-15 years.
Our profession here in Canada got the message back in the nineties, and we started to change the culture. Stiffer fines and penalties for various abuses, mistakes. And further, having those wasn't enough, "enforcing" those penalties. Laws or regulations aren't very good unless they have teeth and theres demonstrable follow through.
Leo hasn't gotten the message yet.
See the G20 and nothing but one mid level superintendent being thrown under the bus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_trust
Why are you assuming they don't have our support?
What your missing I think, is that ultimately incidents like this, or the bad apples in law enforcement, ultimately if they aren't dealt with or handled properly only hurt the good apples.
See cops, good cops being executed in the US
Why?
Because cops aren't being held accountable when they cross lines and the citizens have lost trust/faith in them.
In the end, shooting themselves in the foot.
I don't need to google public trust. Let's try not to be patronizing.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
I've voiced an opinion that differs from yours and its one that is supportive of our police.
I'm done with this topic.
The first 3 rounds drop him, the next 6 is completely beyond the realm of reasonable.
Good post !!! I've read all the posts here, and elsewhere. It's good to see the peanut gallery is alive and well. Unless you have faced a drug crazed individual with a knife, you have no business second guessing the officer. I can say that the first thing that happens, is your arse slams shut. The next is, your training automatically kicks in. Only he knows what was going through his mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
Its typical that everyone can disect over the course of months, what the officer did and why. He had the matter of seconds to make a decision. He didn't have the luxury of videos, witness statements, pathology reports etc etc....
Did he overreact, not likely in the first instance. Was he justified in shooting again once Yatim was down, maybe... if in his mind, Yatim was getting up. He had no way of knowing how many rounds hit, or their effectiveness. That info only came from the PM.
A lot has been posted that Yatim didn't rush out of the car, some by a couple of posters who should know better. In edged weapon confrontation, critical distance is important. The officer was well within critical distance. Had Yatim rushed out at the officer, he could have very well killed or critically injured the officer, even after being shot. This concept forms part of their training. It's not like the movies......people don't fly backwards and drop once shot.
This is far from over. There will be an appeal......
Big jack, the public trust is important, for good reasons. . You can think Im arrogant all you like, but it starts there ( the 'PT") it is the overriding concern/issue. Perhaps you can take Chief Saunders lead. Do you think he doesn't support leo? Whether we support leo or not immaterial, it's that important.
"There can be no legitimacy without accountability"
"There powers police officers have come with enormous responsilibilty".
http://globalnews.ca/video/2475885/m...accountability
Quote:
He had the matter of seconds to make a decision.
The SIU disagree's obviously...They laid the charges. Why does the SIU exist Rick? Oh, that's right civilian oversight. Not a police state or not police such as yourself deciding what is/isnt over the line.
The greater public strongly disagree's. Be that as it may, the jury found it was justified.
John Tory on "the eroded PT"
http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hal...lic-trust.html
Im more familiar with SIU than most......they have not had a single conviction stand. I wonder why ????? At no time did I decide what was over the line. The courts and due process will decide that. You should get off your lofty soapbox until you have faced a situation more dangerous than a paper cut !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
Well that can cut both ways.
If we listen to a growing segment of the public, they think leo gets away with murder and the system still favours them or that they protect their own.
If we listen to friends they think the SIU is out to get them and in many cases inept.Care to deny?
At the end of the day your just an armchair quarterback in this as well...unless you were there.... Were you? Curious have you ever drawn and shot a crazed knife wielding at 5-15 feet? Im thinking no, you haven't either.
So save your weak "insults", and yes Rick I have faced people....
As did my grandfather (bullit in the face...can you say that much)...
As did my Uncle (OPP),
As did my youngest uncle (Under cover with the RCMP)
As did my god father (undercover with CSIS)....
My stance is from the PT, balancing. Seems your civilian overseers ( be they the SIU, Mayors like John Tory etc) who you seem to resent "get it", as does Chief Saunders and more.
Oh, and I guess you've forgotten how many times Ive defended leo (am thinking a couple high profile shootings south of the border) where really specifics weren't "all" that different. Excepts perhaps how much of a threat the dead person may or may not have been. In those cases the "guy" wasnt contained or inside a structure he'd have to exit out of.
A guy, whether he is jacked or not, who is contained within an empty streetcar isn't all that much of a threat. Not to the public, and while he may still represent a threat to those attending. I seem to recall saying to things here to some who thought they could have rushed him..He would first need to make a rush for the stairs/door, with atleast 4-6 guns pointed at him....And that didn't happen.
They had all the time in the world...
Who gives a rats arse about what your family has done. That does not qualify you in the least ! And yes, I have been in a similar situation, so I have a bit more insight into what MAY have been going through the officer's mind. As far as your assertion of armchair quarterbacking, I have yet to give an opinion on what the officer did or should have done, unlike you. How wonderful the view must be from your lofty perch !!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
My soapbox as you call it is no different than Chief Saunders. deal with it.
Quote:
Speaking to reporters shortly after the verdict was announced Monday, Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders hailed the verdict as an important step in showing police accountability to the public
My family should give you a clue as to where my sympathies lie or has that gone over your head. But unlike you apparently I get how important the PT is. And what may or may not have been going through his head, Im not sure has much bearing. By that I mean we all know what is going through a husbands mind when he catches his wife in bed......or we all know whats going through some persons mind when they find an intruder in their house.
Does it make killing them right?
****
Where was his body lying Rick.
Inside the street car?
On the steps?
on the pavement?
As you said, real life isn't hollywood and bullits don't blow people back. Im thinking if he was rushing Forcilo and on his way down, momentum would have resulted in the body ending up on the pavement?
Funny that.
Was there any need for Forcillo get in that tight and start screaming in his face to begin with? I think most rational people might think, no he could have stayed back a few more feet. Can you give with your expertise a reason to escalate it at that point? Doesn't training teach you to deescalate?
Again, in the end the jury decided he was justified. Just as we, might think they get it wrong when someone we think is guilty of murder gets acquitted.....
Call it a soapbox all you like. The public (meaning us) has every right to question this. Some will think theres no reason/justification, some will. Thats life. I might also point out, that from reading through those who seem to have problems with others thoughts on the matter are those who think anyone who thinks he was in the wrong, are in the wrong.
Don't care if you think he was justified.
Surprised you at the least don't understand how important the PT is. That soap box you keep referring to, and that is to me, the most important aspect in all of this.
All of this is irrelevant to the topic being discussed, , you have done this many times before , bring up your family to try and enhance yourself and your knowledge of the topics being discussed.Quote:
As did my grandfather (bullit in the face...can you say that much)...
As did my Uncle (OPP),
As did my youngest uncle (Under cover with the RCMP)
As did my god father (undercover with CSIS)....
I think you missed the part where I said..where do you think my sympathies lie?
With respect to the other aspect, yeah I have more than just a little familiarity with it. And the fact Chief Saunders is, (and others) echoing the same things...Perhaps if others hadn't crawled up on their "soap box" and taken so much issue with it.
/shrug
Great explanation for one of Torontos top lawyers. His interpretation is pretty clear.
http://www.bttoronto.ca/videos/4721974578001/
WARNING GRAPHIC POLICE SHOOTING
https://www.instagram.com/p/BApXDElvKAg/
This shows you how a person being shot can cover distance. Goes back to what someone else said about that 21ft rule. Different circumstances for sure but it goes to show that bullets aren't magic like the movies.
So during my commutes I've been listening to the CBC's reporting and analysis of this story. The dialogue is squarely focused on how poorly the police handle people with mental issues. But Sammy Yatin had no history of mental illness and his family is adamant that he was a mentally healthy and non-violent person.
We should be having a debate about how police handle violent people. Instead this has turned into a debate about how police should handle "people in crisis".
Some relatives of mine recently moved to get away from the "people in crisis" who lived next door, more commonly referred to as a crack house.
Were the tox reports made public. He had the knife in one hand and his pecker in the other so he was either high or suffering some form of mental illness. Either way it's definitely not an easy situation for the cop's .
High on ecstasy...but I's suspect some pretty severe sort of mental illness as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter John
There are a lot of weirdo's out there....and expecting them to be at all rational is not rational.
So shooting the guy at first is hard to argue with.
The second volley - well that looks bad.
But if that's how we are going to direct our police, that'll get translated into "once you start shooting, empty your gun", don't stop for a second or two unless your absolutely sure he's dead.
...that sounds like the advice I give people shooting at bears...