An indirect answer to : "Peering into my crystal-ball"

North America , being the largest crucible on the planet , still has the capacity to absorb more IMMIGRANTS . However , the previously required level of sophistication (education and skill , scientific and accomplished trades-people) DOESN'T SEEM TO BE A CONDITION of eligibility anymore . 50 / 60 or more years ago potential immigrants had to possess certain qualifications in order to be considered . They were "measured" and chosen on the premise of what they could contribute to the country . Self-sufficiency and creativity were necessary assets . Not being a burden to the "adopted nation" was of utmost importance . --- I realize that this was not ALWAYS the case . During the irish potato-famine a lot of people were accepted because of dire circumstances . Being members of the British Commonwealth helped too . --- All of these requirements apparently don't apply anymore . Now-a-days , our governments (Canada and US) "coddle" new-comers (especially refugees) . While some of them may be privately sponsored the vast majority is riding on the TAX-PAYERS-POCKETS (money , clothes , living-quarters , food etc.) . --- I am not racist or biased as far as ethnic-background , color or religion is concerned but feel that certain "guide-lines" should be adhered to when people are allowed to settle here . --- Immigrants , that arrived here earlier (50 / 60 or 70 years ago) were responsible for them-selves . If they didn't have the "means" they DIDN'T eat or have a roof above their heads . --- Sally Ann or Scott's Mission ? Nah , --- most legitimate immigrants were too proud for that . Even being a skilled tradesman or doctor etc. was no guaranty to "land" a job (in your specialty) .

We are currently being over-run by hordes of asylum-seekers who see us as a life-preserver and are apparently not willing to adapt to our customs or standards . If they want to hang on to their own customs they are welcome to do so within their own quarters as long as they don't impact others . Learning our language and trying to be "productive" citizens would be a start already . I believe that their influx will have a dubious effect on the future of our nation . Aside from the obvious repercussions from mixing cultures , blood etc. I can see our country changing in a negative direction . Personally , I'm not very religious and respect other peoples beliefs ; however , let's not destroy our way of life because of it . --- 150 years from now our Canadian ways won't exist any more . Hunting will take a "hit" as well ; not only because of environmental changes but because of different perceptions . --- I'd expressed my feelings much more adequately when I wrote this whole post BUT my damned computer seems to have swallowed it . It just disappeared . --- Hail Canada !

I agree with you. When my grandfather immigrated here from Italy he had nothing, the only thing going for him was that he new construction. He had no money and got lucky to sleep in someones house that was from Italy too. He wasn't housed,clothed,fed and given money but he new how to work and thats what he did to grow his family. Im not saying that certain people belong in this country or not don't get me wrong but people have to contribute there share and be thankful to live in this country. Do people remember not to long ago when they deported a hole bunch of construction working Portuguese people and there families that where living in Canada for years back to Portugal. Do you see something wrong here I do.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...kers-1.3434236

Gunner, you're confusing refugee with immigrant. I'd say it's much harder now to be accepted as an immigrant than it was 60 years ago. TomG if your grandfather showed up today with what he arrived with years ago he would be refused.

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Originally Posted by Rugger

Gunner, you're confusing refugee with immigrant. I'd say it's much harder now to be accepted as an immigrant than it was 60 years ago. TomG if your grandfather showed up today with what he arrived with years ago he would be refused.

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Thanks Rugger, was going to point these things out specifically.

Kinda hard to claim to be unbiased Gunner when you're shoveling that much crap.

The problem is that the whole refugee thing is a political football. The ones that are coming in have been in safe countries for months and sometimes years already. Some are refusing to come to Canada because they have families and assets over seas. Not sure that really qualifies them as refugees when there are many legitimate victims with nothing but the clothes on their backs living in squalor. There were already many people in much worse conditions already in the system awaiting clearance. These people were skipped over for purely political reasons by Trudough. The other thing is we have people living in the streets here who most times were once productive tax payers who fell on hard times and many times health issues. We should make sure these people aren't living in boxes and alleys before putting up "refugees" in Toronto hotels where they complain they weren't given better accommodations. There are millions of truly desperate people who need our help and we should be helping them first. That young boy who washed up on shore shocked the world and it was spun for political gain. The truth is he was the son of a human smuggler who overloaded a boat and it went down, the left spun it ( very successfully) as Harper's fault . His parents hadn't even applied for refugee status, likely because there was good money to be made smuggling in people. Many of the refugees landing now ere not in danger. They just wanted "in" to a country with generous welfare programs. When you see people well dressed with cell phones and expensive luggage it is hard to think of them as desperate. Likely capitalizing on a chance to jump the Que. And the other thing is we are no doubt letting in extremists who have nothing but evil in mind and exposing ourselves to terror attacks. The Conservatives were managing the process intelligently and refused to turn peoples misery into political profit. Clearly they made the wrong decision. Not sure what that says about the intelligence of Canadian voters.

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Originally Posted by Oddmott

Thanks Rugger, was going to point these things out specifically.

Kinda hard to claim to be unbiased Gunner when you're shoveling that much crap.

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My poor Irish family would be turned back today, a stone mason but no money, no place to live, no education that would be considered accredited and nobody sponsoring them.

I feel for the Engineers, Doctors and skilled people that have to fight tooth and nail to be able to get any sort of job here, with a support network, sponsorship and money backing them. Nobody works harder than an immigrant trying to make it.

I am waiting for someone to write that they are ticked that these immigrants are taking their jobs and sitting on welfare all in the same sentence, it seems to happen every time a post like this comes up.


Gunner, if new people were "responsible" for themselves these days as you refer then Canada would be in deep trouble internationally, you cannot just dump people in the bush and say good luck anymore and I do not believe we should.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rugger

Gunner, you're confusing refugee with immigrant. I'd say it's much harder now to be accepted as an immigrant than it was 60 years ago. TomG if your grandfather showed up today with what he arrived with years ago he would be refused.

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I don't think so Rugger, they built this country and didn't ask anything or any help to live here.

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Originally Posted by tom gobble

I don't think so Rugger, they built this country and didn't ask anything or any help to live here.

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Re-read what he said.

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Originally Posted by terrym

The problem is that the whole refugee thing is a political football. The ones that are coming in have been in safe countries for months and sometimes years already. Some are refusing to come to Canada because they have families and assets over seas. Not sure that really qualifies them as refugees when there are many legitimate victims with nothing but the clothes on their backs living in squalor. There were already many people in much worse conditions already in the system awaiting clearance. These people were skipped over for purely political reasons by Trudough. The other thing is we have people living in the streets here who most times were once productive tax payers who fell on hard times and many times health issues. We should make sure these people aren't living in boxes and alleys before putting up "refugees" in Toronto hotels where they complain they weren't given better accommodations. There are millions of truly desperate people who need our help and we should be helping them first. That young boy who washed up on shore shocked the world and it was spun for political gain. The truth is he was the son of a human smuggler who overloaded a boat and it went down, the left spun it ( very successfully) as Harper's fault . His parents hadn't even applied for refugee status, likely because there was good money to be made smuggling in people. Many of the refugees landing now ere not in danger. They just wanted "in" to a country with generous welfare programs. When you see people well dressed with cell phones and expensive luggage it is hard to think of them as desperate. Likely capitalizing on a chance to jump the Que. And the other thing is we are no doubt letting in extremists who have nothing but evil in mind and exposing ourselves to terror attacks. The Conservatives were managing the process intelligently and refused to turn peoples misery into political profit. Clearly they made the wrong decision. Not sure what that says about the intelligence of Canadian voters.

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You're just spewing a whole bunch of similar misguided statements, using different terminology.

Fact is, across ALL Provinces (territories are a different matter entirely) there are very strong webs of social programming available to anyone who needs it. The people who CHOOSE to be living on the streets, out of doors, are choosing to be there.

Unless criminally active, or in the midst of a violent outburst, no Canadian is turned away from soup kitchens, shelters, food banks, etc. We have hostels & hospices that rent rooms at a rate of $2 per night and offer $1 meals. We have geared to income housing for EVERYONE from ages 16-death. ANd this is all before we even get into EI, Disability and other social payments.

All those people you try to claim aren't being looked after, are, in every way a responsible society can. Some of them just choose to live aside from the system. The ONLY exception are the mentally ill who living that life alone are not capable of getting back into the system.

OM, great post.

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Originally Posted by Oddmott

You're just spewing a whole bunch of similar misguided statements, using different terminology.

Fact is, across ALL Provinces (territories are a different matter entirely) there are very strong webs of social programming available to anyone who needs it. The people who CHOOSE to be living on the streets, out of doors, are choosing to be there.

Unless criminally active, or in the midst of a violent outburst, no Canadian is turned away from soup kitchens, shelters, food banks, etc. We have hostels & hospices that rent rooms at a rate of $2 per night and offer $1 meals. We have geared to income housing for EVERYONE from ages 16-death. ANd this is all before we even get into EI, Disability and other social payments.

All those people you try to claim aren't being looked after, are, in every way a responsible society can. Some of them just choose to live aside from the system. The ONLY exception are the mentally ill who living that life alone are not capable of getting back into the system.

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yes of course perfectly "sane" people choose to live on top of a sewer grate or in a tent in the Don Valley ravine in a Canadian winter. I guess they choose to have mental health issues. Perfectly reasonable to detach from society and live outdoors. Adventurers right?

There is help for them if they are 'willing'.

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

There is help for them if they are 'willing'.

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Little cold, yes of course there is. Usually very well paid civil servants but if you think a person suffering mental health issues is always capable of making the right decisions then your need to contradict everything I say has poisoned your common sense. In fact I find it ironic that you the OOD liberal apologist is taking that stance and "I" the site Conservative extremist the other. I guess the progressives really don't care about the destitute unless it means jobs for "progressives".......:shy:

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Originally Posted by terrym

In fact I find it ironic that you the OOD liberal apologist is taking that stance and "I" the site Conservative extremist the other. I guess the progressives really don't care about the destitute unless it means jobs for "progressives".......:shy:

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Well, that would be real neat. If it were anywhere close to reality.

What you're in fact doing is using one group of people that you have no intention of ever helping as a convenient excuse to not help another group of people you have no intention of helping.

Canada's mentally ill have needed improved aid for about 55 years - ever since it became cool and convenient for families to ditch them in homes and hospitals and hostels and the streets post-WWII. That need drastically increased under Harpers' first term as PM, when federal funding for the homes & hospitals for the mentally ill was cut by 70% over 2 years. I think the last article i read on the matter (sometime in 2014) said something like 40ish such facilities closed nation-wide since 2000.

But, never once, during Harper's PMship or prior to the Syrian refugee crisis, do I ever remember you being such a staunch defender of their rights & needs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rugger

Gunner, you're confusing refugee with immigrant. I'd say it's much harder now to be accepted as an immigrant than it was 60 years ago. TomG if your grandfather showed up today with what he arrived with years ago he would be refused.

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X2
I have a good numbers of "ethnical" coworkers who are first and second generation immigrants.
You would not believe how "white" they are...
They did not leave their home countries to support a bunch of welfare refugees, but to provide a better future for their own children

The reason why we see so few white immigrants is because the bar is so high. However, what youoften see coming from thitd world countries are refugees and family of previous accepted refugees - the later are being the problem, not actually immigrants.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oddmott

Well, that would be real neat. If it were anywhere close to reality.

What you're in fact doing is using one group of people that you have no intention of ever helping as a convenient excuse to not help another group of people you have no intention of helping.

Canada's mentally ill have needed improved aid for about 55 years - ever since it became cool and convenient for families to ditch them in homes and hospitals and hostels and the streets post-WWII. That need drastically increased under Harpers' first term as PM, when federal funding for the homes & hospitals for the mentally ill was cut by 70% over 2 years. I think the last article i read on the matter (sometime in 2014) said something like 40ish such facilities closed nation-wide since 2000.

But, never once, during Harper's PMship or prior to the Syrian refugee crisis, do I ever remember you being such a staunch defender of their rights & needs.

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Well said.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oddmott

Canada's mentally ill have needed improved aid for about 55 years - ever since it became cool and convenient for families to ditch them in homes and hospitals and hostels and the streets post-WWII. That need drastically increased under Harpers' first term as PM, when federal funding for the homes & hospitals for the mentally ill was cut by 70% over 2 years. I think the last article i read on the matter (sometime in 2014) said something like 40ish such facilities closed nation-wide since 2000.
.

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you do realize that health care is a Provincial jurisdiction right? Also I don't remember Harper overriding the healthcare accords and reducing funding to Provinces by 70%, pretty sure he wouldn't have got back in and certainly not given a majority. In fact I think health care funding increased every year Harper was in office. Usually double the inflation rate. Now if the Provinces chose to cut services like mental health ( or vision care or physiotherapy ) the Feds have no say in that. So that would stick to McLiar and Wynnocio. How healthcare money is spent is not decided by the Feds.
As to what I think about the state of mental health today you don't know me or have a clue as to what I have seen or been exposed to. But by all means carry on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oddmott

What you're in fact doing is using one group of people that you have no intention of ever helping as a convenient excuse to not help another group of people you have no intention of helping.
.

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read my post again but slowly this time. What I said is there are thousands of refugee claimants that have been kicked to the back of the line because they are not front page news and weren't useful to Trudough's political ambitions. Many of them are in far more need of aid He's the idiot who made it a campaign issue with idiotic promises that were logistically impossible and unsafe. Harper didn't start the electoral refugee quota game. Trudough did and that pretty well shows how shallow he is. Then again he is the guy who billed charities and school boards to read speaches. Sunny days......

Please terry... try to educate me.

I know that typically ALL provision and administration of health care is under the authority of Provinces. However, for MANY things (mental health especially) most of the programs and facilities relied heavily on Federal funding.

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Finally, and perhaps most importantly for the purposes of mental health, Parliament has the power under sections 91(1A) and 91(3) to legislate with respect to “public debt and property” and “raising of money by any system of taxation.” These powers, often collectively referred to as the “federal spending power,” allow Parliament to spend money on initiatives of concern to Canadians in any area.6 The federal spending power has enabled Parliament to establish several federal initiatives on mental health, which will be discussed below.

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http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/LOP/Re.../2013-76-e.htm

Have a good read.

At no point did i claim that total healthcare funding to provinces was cut. It was funding specifically to the mental health initiatives that was cut. Without it, the entire system crumbled. It's no secret that dozens of these facilities were shut down in the 2000s, and the poor buggers who'd been living in them were essentially tossed out on the streets.

There was TONS of very specific funding initiatives that were targeted to be cut, all for services that most Canadians never even think of or knew existed. It's what Conservatives do. It's why we vote them in. They trim the fat, but they always take a good chunk of muscle with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by terrym

read my post again but slowly this time. What I said is there are thousands of refugee claimants that have been kicked to the back of the line because they are not front page news and weren't useful to Trudough's political ambitions. Many of them are in far more need of aid He's the idiot who made it a campaign issue with idiotic promises that were logistically impossible and unsafe. Harper didn't start the electoral refugee quota game. Trudough did and that pretty well shows how shallow he is. Then again he is the guy who billed charities and school boards to read speaches. Sunny days......

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That's not the point i was addressing. The part i was addressing was:

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The other thing is we have people living in the streets here who most times were once productive tax payers who fell on hard times and many times health issues. We should make sure these people aren't living in boxes and alleys before putting up "refugees" in Toronto hotels where they complain they weren't given better accommodations.

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I completely agree with your rundown of how Trudeau turned this issue into THE issue of the election, and agree that the Libs didn't handle any of it appropriately until they adopted the original Cons' plan almost exactly.

I just don't agree with the whole moaning lament about helping those good ol home grown Canadian needy BS. The initiatives are in place to help those people. Those who choose to not use the services provided are making that choice. Or, they're mentally ill and unable to make that choice. Either way, it's not on Trudeau or any PM to prioritize them over anyone else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oddmott

Please terry... try to educate me.

I know that typically ALL provision and administration of health care is under the authority of Provinces. However, for MANY things (mental health especially) most of the programs and facilities relied heavily on Federal funding.


http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/LOP/Re.../2013-76-e.htm

Have a good read.

At no point did i claim that total healthcare funding to provinces was cut. It was funding specifically to the mental health initiatives that was cut. Without it, the entire system crumbled. It's no secret that dozens of these facilities were shut down in the 2000s, and the poor buggers who'd been living in them were essentially tossed out on the streets.

There was TONS of very specific funding initiatives that were targeted to be cut, all for services that most Canadians never even think of or knew existed. It's what Conservatives do. It's why we vote them in. They trim the fat, but they always take a good chunk of muscle with it.

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In what years did Harper cut Health care funding? Wynne decides how it gets spent. End of discussion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by terrym

you do realize that health care is a Provincial jurisdiction right? Also I don't remember Harper overriding the healthcare accords and reducing funding to Provinces by 70%, pretty sure he wouldn't have got back in and certainly not given a majority. In fact I think health care funding increased every year Harper was in office. Usually double the inflation rate. Now if the Provinces chose to cut services like mental health ( or vision care or physiotherapy ) the Feds have no say in that. So that would stick to McLiar and Wynnocio. How healthcare money is spent is not decided by the Feds.
As to what I think about the state of mental health today you don't know me or have a clue as to what I have seen or been exposed to. But by all means carry on.

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Blows my mind people don't know this, and blame Harper for the brutal shape healthcare is in, especially here in Ontario. Just one of god knows how many articles on it. And when blaming Harper for their god awful bungling and gutting of Healthcare doesn't work. Well there's always Mike Harris.

http://www.intelligencer.ca/2014/12/...o-shame-harper

how many Ontarians are without GPs alone?
answer 800,000

how many GPs are they (fed/prov) drumming up for refugees.
All of them.

Dont get me wrong. But to pretend or believe tax paying people aren't getting bent when there are soooooo many problems here at home. Just naive
And even if someone wants to blame Harper for all the mental health facilities that closed. Um, maybe if mcWynne and the Liberals here hadn't wasted ungodly sums in scandals, pandering to Unions, so much debt with nothing to show and sooooo much more.
They wouldn't have needed to close them?
I know radical thinking
:)

Anyone know or want to guess how much it cost a tax paying parent with a dependant who lives with them for many years.......and can't get good paying jobs due to their medical condition ......and do they get relief in their taxes?

So again, don't be naive to believe tax paying Canadians who need help aren't getting bent.

Over to you G

Thanks JB... My doctor retired last year. It took me 1 day and a couple of phone calls to find a new one, granted I live in the GTA and it might be different in the sticks. I worked in long term care for 32 years . In the last 5-6 years we were getting people who had just turned 18 being placed into care facilities designed for seniors, because all the group homes were being closed. So now we have seniors who have led a full and rewarding life, in rooms with teenagers who have been institutionalized their entire life and know and understand nothing. Those teenagers will grow up and will be in that same room forever as the seniors around them die. ( average length of stay of seniors , in a LTC facility is 8 months ).

There is a vast difference G.
Just here in Whitby anytime a GP lets it be known they are accepting new clients, the group Im a member of ( 900 strong, mostly single moms/dads) post the info so those without and looking might get one and there are a lot. I imagine as a person moves further away from the major centres, it gets harder and harder and harder. And do know that the Prov spent a lot of time and effort finding GPs for every refugee....front of the line......and your welcome G

M ( I hope you don't think I was chirping at "you') but consider this.
While I am not extremely familiar with various regs, what qualifies and what doesn't consider this.

We all know how expensive it is to raise children these days. Well what happens when a dependent ( a child who has been diagnosed with A to Z ) ends up living with mom and dad well beyond the age of 21...And mom/dad can no longer claim them as a dependant (as if that goes far enough to begin with), when their insurance plans no longer cover meds ( there are exceptions that can be made), and the child while functioning is really destined for a life of minimum wage jobs. So the child themself can't and won't even quality for assistance......unless they don't work and instead opt for wealth fare....

And that parent or parents who pay a ton of taxes, are themselves struggling to get by , especially these days, can get no help, or relief.
Do they go bankrupt?
Do they "toss them out into the world".

Alternatively what about parents that now hitting 60 or 70 and suffering from A to Z say dementia and that middle class peon with children (him, her themselves) and are getting hammered by taxation, hydro, can't save and doesn't have a Pension....

What?

yea but for the grace of god....