Starlings

New to the provence and ottawa....Finding it hard to get pigions to train my GSP....Did some research on using different training birds and starlings kept popping up....Before anyone replies to this thread about using starlings as a training aid....They are an invasive species....They are displacing native species at an ALARMING rate....They are as big a problem as zebra muscles....And not to put to fine a point on it....If i can help native species and train my dog well that is win win....Like killing two birds with one stone:rolleye: Has anyone used this bird as a training aid?

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Originally Posted by steelshot

New to the provence and ottawa....Finding it hard to get pigions to train my GSP....Did some research on using different training birds and starlings kept popping up....Before anyone replies to this thread about using starlings as a training aid....They are an invasive species....They are displacing native species at an ALARMING rate....They are as big a problem as zebra muscles....And not to put to fine a point on it....If i can help native species and train my dog well that is win win....Like killing two birds with one stone:rolleye: Has anyone used this bird as a training aid?

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You want them "alive"? Or is a hole in them ok?

Surely pigeons or pen raised birds can be found for the off season and wild birds the rest of the year . The problem I could see with starlings would be when hunting he is out hunting song birds as that is what you are training on and are abundant in the wild.

X2
plus I think it would be illegal to keep starlings in a cage or launcher, but maybe not as you can keep one as a pet from what I read.

Welcome to Ontario.:)

forgive me but a Starling is a song bird??I guess so but a pain in the butt just ask my wife when she hangs out the wash to dry

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Originally Posted by trkyhntr21

The problem I could see with starlings would be when hunting he is out hunting song birds as that is what you are training on and are abundant in the wild.

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That was my first thought. If you train the dog to hunt tweety birds he's going to hunt tweety birds. I'd think that'd give you no end of trouble.

Your dog is smarter then mine... if he can tell the difference between a "song bird" Chickadee,robin,crow,blue jay,pine siskin,finch Or a game bird....quail,rough grouse spruce grouse,pheasant,ptarmigan,snipe,wood and pigeon and mourning dove.... pigeon is actually a dove....Bird is a bird to a dog....This town has bylaws against everything including pigeons so keeping them is Illegal....So starling it is!

Yeah my dogs can tell the difference between song birds and game birds and pigeons . I have had to break a dog from stopping and flagging song birds it is a frustrating thing I don't know why anyone would want to ever go down that road.

Where did your dog get his degree? Starlings are actually in the mina family....Which in some countries are game birds....But thats cool your dog let you know that...

Are you asking for advice or giving it?

LOL
You can keep pigeons in Ottawa. My brother -in-law does legally. Now you may not want a coop outside, but I trained successfully with 6-8 a week in a dog crate in the garage. You must use them up every week. Small animal auctions sell them for around 2$ a bird. It's a bit of a pain but you only need them for maybe 8 + weeks and you can switch to small quail, depending on the dog's progress.

http://ottawa.ca/en/residents/animal...ts-and-pigeons

My original question was "Has anyone used them as a training aid" If you use them in lieu of game birds.... Do they flush well when released?....As long as a spices is not found in boreal forest e.g. pigeons there is no risk of your dog bumping something that is not in the habitat you are hunting....Starlings are mostly gone south during hunting season and are not found in boreal forest habitat....Again i will use the example of the pigeon....Its not found in the bush you hunt....So arbitrarily you could use a gray parrot....I used pigeons to train my GSP on ruffed grouse....In the bush when he found himself in the sent cone of a grouse he stood on it....All he knew it was a bird....Later that day he stood on a spruce grouse....And when i bring him to the duck pond he is a statue....All he knows is a bird is a bird....Starling or pigeon makes no difference....All i want to know is how close do starlings sit when released? and general behaviour of the bird....

Starling are a scourge in the bird world. They are the ugliest and I understand the British brought them over. I dislike them very much. I'll thank you in advance for any you kill.

Your the man dude! Where is the auction your talking about? I'll Take 100!

I don't think your going to find anyone using them for training, but i think you should try it..... and then let us know how it goes.......

I think if you use a wild starling the second you but it down for your dog its going to fly away. Even if you dizzy it, once it snaps out of it it will fly away. They are not comfortable on the ground. You would need to get a bird trap launcher for sure.

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Originally Posted by steelshot

Your dog is smarter then mine... if he can tell the difference between a "song bird" Chickadee,robin,crow,blue jay,pine siskin,finch Or a game bird....quail,rough grouse spruce grouse,pheasant,ptarmigan,snipe,wood and pigeon and mourning dove.... pigeon is actually a dove....Bird is a bird to a dog....This town has bylaws against everything including pigeons so keeping them is Illegal....So starling it is!

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To answer your question, no I have never used starlings as a training bird.
on another note, my dogs can tell the difference between song birds and game birds. They figured it out while they were very young and I assisted in discouraging them from bothering with them. Your idea is silly. You have 9 posts and have already come off as confrontational. Go find some pigeons...and it is spelled province not Provence.

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Originally Posted by steelshot

All he knows is a bird is a bird....

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Your dog knows more than you think he does. A dog with any experience quickly learns the difference between grouse, pheasants, etc. & will start handling them differently as he learns. This doesn't require genius; hunting is what hunting dogs do, and they're good at it. You ought to have some respect for your dog's intelligence.

But it seems you've already made up your mind to use starlings. So go ahead and use them. You'll find out how close they sit when released soon enough.

A starling would be the last bird I would use. You don't want your dog hunting them. Pigeons are not hard to find anywhere in Ontario especially around Ottawa. Keep looking ;)

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Originally Posted by steelshot

.Starlings are mostly gone south during hunting season and are not found in boreal forest habitat....Again i will use the example of the pigeon....Its not found in the bush you hunt....So arbitrarily you could use a gray parrot....I used pigeons to train my GSP on ruffed grouse....In the bush when he found himself in the sent cone of a grouse he stood on it....All he knew it was a bird....Later that day he stood on a spruce grouse....And when i bring him to the duck pond he is a statue....All he knows is a bird is a bird....Starling or pigeon makes no difference....All i want to know is how close do starlings sit when released? and general behaviour of the bird....

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Not to be rude but it appears you already have all the answers so doesn't make much sense that you're asking us. As for starlings going south, I am currently looking at 3 in the cedar hedge outside my window. By the statements you made, you may not know what you don't know....

As a routine no don't use them to train however have used them as a training session of opportunity. Have a cedar row along the property and had fledgling Grackles/cowbirds in the yard. Made for good point, hold and me pickup for the pup. Did it damage her?
Her first season and I think we did okay so far.

That setter really knows how to pose for the camera!

Lol. I was thinking the same thing!!

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Yup she is a poser. One on my fav's is the one with the pheasants. She's got that "Ya I did that" look. At some point hope to capture the look she gives me when I miss. All I can say makes you really don't want to miss.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Yup she is a poser. One on my fav's is the one with the pheasants.

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Shows off that nice bell, too!

Dilly/Welsh, you are dead on in my books. Dogs not only know game birds from song-type birds, they know woodcock from grouse, etc. and will point them with quite a diverse style/posture.
Using starlings et al is unequivocally a recipe for disaster.
Fff, I once ran a dog in a trial and finally found success even though my mentor had been telling me for some time my dog was awesome. When I finally reached this pinnacle, I proudly walked back from the bird field with my dog to say to my mentor, "He did really well didn't he?!?"
My mentor responded, "Yup...he did, in spite of his handler (meaning me)."
Your gorgeous setter might overcome treating starlings as game because she is one SUPER dog.

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Originally Posted by Ugo

My mentor responded, "Yup...he did, in spite of his handler (meaning me)."

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My feelings exactly with my current dog. I'm his biggest fault lol.

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Originally Posted by Ugo

My mentor responded, "Yup...he did, in spite of his handler (meaning me)."

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LOL. I resemble that remark!

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Originally Posted by Ugo

Dilly/Welsh, you are dead on in my books. Dogs not only know game birds from song-type birds, they know woodcock from grouse, etc. and will point them with quite a diverse style/posture.
Using starlings et al is unequivocally a recipe for disaster.
Fff, I once ran a dog in a trial and finally found success even though my mentor had been telling me for some time my dog was awesome. When I finally reached this pinnacle, I proudly walked back from the bird field with my dog to say to my mentor, "He did really well didn't he?!?"
My mentor responded, "Yup...he did, in spite of his handler (meaning me)."
Your gorgeous setter might overcome treating starlings as game because she is one SUPER dog.

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..... or maybe I know what I'm doing. As someone who has no interest in charging for my opinion I'll just enjoy the hunts with my dogs as I see fit.

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Originally Posted by Ugo

Dilly/Welsh, you are dead on in my books. Dogs not only know game birds from song-type birds, they know woodcock from grouse, etc. and will point them with quite a diverse style/posture.
Using starlings et al is unequivocally a recipe for disaster.
Fff, I once ran a dog in a trial and finally found success even though my mentor had been telling me for some time my dog was awesome. When I finally reached this pinnacle, I proudly walked back from the bird field with my dog to say to my mentor, "He did really well didn't he?!?"
My mentor responded, "Yup...he did, in spite of his handler (meaning me)."
Your gorgeous setter might overcome treating starlings as game because she is one SUPER dog.

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Hey. You said that to me once.... when I used to look at where I thought the dog was and call instead of calling in the opposite direction. LOL ..... which I appreciated as it was a learning experience.

http://www.ovnavhda.com/

Go to this website, contact one of their directors and find out when they are training. They should be able to assist you in training, location of training birds and possibly if you behave a fellowship of a hunting partner.

Dick

Sharon, some of us learn from others, ie. mentors. Some of us have to learn from our own mistakes. Some never learn. Glad I was able to help you in some small way.

I've always had black Labs, and I never passed on a chance to get the pup to pick up any bird. Every dog I've owned had a blast picking up Starlings and Cowbirds that got pinged from the back patio door. No different than a duck or a grouse. The dog sees you going to get the gun, hears the shot, waits until you send him, then "fetches-up" the bird you just shot. Anything with feathers works for me. I've never had a dog "get stuck on wanting "to retrieve these birds when you're hunting. Those setter poses are absolutely priceless! The look on that dog's face made me have a good roar! What a ham!

Fetching starlings isn't the problem. Hunting tweety birds is the potential negative outcome of training with tweety birds. You don't want your upland dog hunting tweety birds (and they are prevalent, early in the season).

This one falls under the old training adage: "Decide what you don't want your dog to do, and see that he doesn't do it."

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Originally Posted by steelshot

My original question was "Has anyone used them as a training aid" If you use them in lieu of game birds.... Do they flush well when released?....As long as a spices is not found in boreal forest e.g. pigeons there is no risk of your dog bumping something that is not in the habitat you are hunting....Starlings are mostly gone south during hunting season and are not found in boreal forest habitat....Again i will use the example of the pigeon....Its not found in the bush you hunt....So arbitrarily you could use a gray parrot....I used pigeons to train my GSP on ruffed grouse....In the bush when he found himself in the sent cone of a grouse he stood on it....All he knew it was a bird....Later that day he stood on a spruce grouse....And when i bring him to the duck pond he is a statue....All he knows is a bird is a bird....Starling or pigeon makes no difference....All i want to know is how close do starlings sit when released? and general behaviour of the bird....

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Stouffville fair from 5am to 11am every Saturday they sell pigeons grouse pheasant quail chickens ducks rabbits no starlings though

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hunting songbirds is something I haven't done and never will. certain people like it (often because of their ethnic background), but to me there needs to be some purpose in killing an animal (typically for the meat, but not only for the sport). yes, dog training is a bit different, but as I'm not going to hunt songbirds, why train on them.
as for the notion a bird is a bird, the OP is likely wrong (as pointed out before by ohters). and the statement that the dog is solid at the duck pond is just another indication that there is some misunderstanding. feel free to disagree, but I don't want to cross a swamp to release my dog from pointing at a duck LOL
IMHO, ducks are to be retrieved or flushed, birds in the field to be pointed, jacks/rabbits chased, deer tracked, etc.
A dog's utility depends on it's ability to discern different game species! You don't do your dog a favour training him on song birds.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Fetching starlings isn't the problem. Hunting tweety birds is the potential negative outcome of training with tweety birds. You don't want your upland dog hunting tweety birds (and they are prevalent, early in the season).

This one falls under the old training adage: "Decide what you don't want your dog to do, and see that he doesn't do it."

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Good advice.

When my father was alive, he used to clear a square area in our yard from snow. He made a frame from broken hockey sticks with a mesh over it. It fit neatly inside this cleared snow area. He then propped up this net-frame with a stick - the base of the stick had a string tied on it leading through the basement window. He then would throw bred crumbs under said net and wait patiently for clouds of "blackeboords" (starlings) to settle under his net. I think you know the rest.
My Mum would prepare a tomato "meat" sauce adding a very small amount of sausage. The sauce was poured lovingly over a slab of polenta. It was delicious!!
Did I forget to tell you we grew up........humble.
No dog required. :)

Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie.

Blackbird shooting used to be a part of hunting apprenticeship as kids grew up but it has more or less faded from the culture. As someone in MNR told me years ago, now everyone wants to jump right into deer and turkey hunting.

Pigeons are supposed to be delicious but I've never eaten one....

In regards to the training bird species debate; IMO pigeons are the way to go, purely for ease of use and re-use not because a dog trained on Starlings would be any less effective than a dog trained on pigeons. Dogs understand what a desirable species is by exposure, experience and reward.

How many folks here actively hunt pigeons? If none, then why did you train with them?

Both surrogate training species (pigeons and starlings) work because you don't often find them in hunting habitats. How many times do you come across Pigeons while hunting grouse? How many times do you come across Starlings while hunting grouse?

If your dog is/was trained on Pigeons and you are hunting Pheasant at a abandoned farmstead out west, would your dog point pigeons it may find on the ground filling its crop?

If the OP wants to train his dog with Starlings I am sure it could be as effective as a dog trained with pigeons, sure there may be logistical advantages to using pigeons over starlings but to say that the dog won't know what a grouse, or woodcock, or snipe, or pheasant is because it was trained on starlings as opposed to pigeons is utter nonsense.

To say that a dog trained on pigeons intuitively understands that a Snipe is a game bird but a Greater Yellow Legs is not, is utter nonsense.

The dog knows the difference between game birds and non-game birds through exposure, experience and reward, not because of the surrogate training species used.

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Originally Posted by jobbershunting

To say that a dog trained on pigeons intuitively understands that a Snipe is a game bird but a Greater Yellow Legs is not, is utter nonsense.

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I'm not sure anyone said that. I'm pretty sure everyone suggested that dogs learn what's desirable by exposure.

Starlings are common throughout the province. I run into them while pheasant hunting. Pigeons are associated with buildings and structures. It's not six of one and a half dozen of the other. And in more general terms, we want the dog to lose its early interest in songbirds. Surely shooting a songbird for the dog is not the best way to achieve that end: experience and exposure will be teaching the dog to pay attention to small passerine birds.

I'll quote David Lisett: "Everything you do with a dog is creating a habit. So you can either create a good habit or a bad habit. Think about what you're doing."

Pigeons are supposed to be delicious but I've never eaten one....

quite tasty at least the country squab. not sure I would want to chow down on the feathered rats in the city.

Out west, pigeons feed on grains. I've eaten pigeon too as a youngster. They have a subtle livery taste which is a bit stronger than woodcock. Like most game, if the chef knows what they're doing...........
I may have shared this one but it comes to mind again here.
So this hunter comes out of the woods with a hawk he shot. An MNR chap is right there and says, "You know hawks are protected!"
The hunter gives him a sob story, "..........and I'm unemployed, my wife is sick, our three kids are starving....."
The officer says, "That may be but I HAVE to write you up."
The next thing, the officer says, "I have to ask you. What does hawk taste like anyway?"
The hunter opines briefly and says, "Hmmm.....a bit like eagle."

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Originally Posted by welsh

Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie.

Blackbird shooting used to be a part of hunting apprenticeship as kids grew up but it has more or less faded from the culture. As someone in MNR told me years ago, now everyone wants to jump right into deer and turkey hunting.

Pigeons are supposed to be delicious but I've never eaten one....

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The grain feed ones I am currently putting my freezer sure are. As for black bird shooting....Still do it, start with a 500 pellet tin, and hours later I have a couple hundred in the waste pile, about 50 pellets left in the tin, a few pigeons for the pot, and probably a lot of very cold birds that I was just a hairs breath off on.

You could always join me some weekend.. Your right here in town...

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Originally Posted by Ugo

Out west, pigeons feed on grains. I've eaten pigeon too as a youngster. They have a subtle livery taste which is a bit stronger than woodcock. Like most game, if the chef knows what they're doing...........

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Let the breast meat (only thing you keep off them) soak in cold salt water ( do not use table salt the iodine wrecks the meat, pickling salt or course salt) in the fridge for about three days and they will turn pink like store bought chicken. Works for grouse, duck, goose, woodcock, etc.
Cook and enjoy or freeze for later.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Let the breast meat (only thing you keep off them) soak in cold salt ( do not use table salt, pickling salt or course salt) in the fridge for about three days and they will turn pink like store bought chicken. Works for grouse, duck, goose, woodcock, etc.
Cook and enjoy or freeze for later.

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It's been quite a while, but I've eaten plenty of pigeon in my day. I really enjoy the flavour and don't find it too strong by any means. For those that have never tried it, the meat is all dark except for a small pink filet on each side. Clay baker works great, oven cooking bags with bacon on the breasts is nice as is a slow cooker. I like to enjoy all the different flavours of various animals. I understand that a certain times some game meat can be quite strong and marinating is recommended but the last thing I want is everything "tasting like chicken"

Snowwalker I recall you posting this before. I've never tried it. So my question is, that by drawing out all the blood with the brine solution are you also taking away much of the flavour depending how long it's in the marinade? Does it do much tenderizing? Just curious. Tks.

Cheers

Pigeon tastes good, better than mourning dove and more meat.
I've eaten plenty of pigeon, if I am out hunting and I see a flock...I drop everything and go after them, I love'em! :)

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Originally Posted by smitty55

It's been quite a while, but I've eaten plenty of pigeon in my day. I really enjoy the flavour and don't find it too strong by any means. For those that have never tried it, the meat is all dark except for a small pink filet on each side. Clay baker works great, oven cooking bags with bacon on the breasts is nice as is a slow cooker. I like to enjoy all the different flavours of various animals. I understand that a certain times some game meat can be quite strong and marinating is recommended but the last thing I want is everything "tasting like chicken"

Snowwalker I recall you posting this before. I've never tried it. So my question is, that by drawing out all the blood with the brine solution are you also taking away much of the flavour depending how long it's in the marinade? Does it do much tenderizing? Just curious. Tks.

Cheers

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They still taste like Pigeon, not like chicken. The brine adds salt which helps the meat hold water so that it does not dry out, this makes it nice and tender. When you cook the meat it would turn white like cooked chicken even if you did not use the brine, but the mosture in the meat is far lower and it is easy to have a tough piece of meat. On something like a diver duck, or a puddle duck that has a weedy/alge taste from not have been eating enough grain, the brine will help remove the "pond scum" flavor, but leave the duck behind. If that makes sense. With a large pail and more time you can also remove most of the "boar tant" from a pig. This takes more then a couple of days, and may have to have the water changed once or twice.

If it can be eaten, I can prepare and cook it for the table. I have been from the tip of Cape Britons,NS to the southern shorse of Queensland, Australia and I can feed you and I with nothing more then a round rock and a sharpened table knife......If you don't mind a lot of rare shellfish, crustaceans( some cooked some not), fish, snake, seaweeds, and fruits and berries.

For some reason I am feeling very hungry now...;):joker:

Just enough for a pie....
Attachment 32158
Four hours and five birds. All grain fed and fat.

Taken with an air rifle, well the cows ( and security cams) watched.

[QUOTE[COLOR=#333333]When my father was alive, he used to clear a square area in our yard from snow. He made a frame from broken hockey sticks with a mesh over it. It fit neatly inside this cleared snow area. He then propped up this net-frame with a stick - the base of the stick had a string tied on it leading through the basement window. He then would throw bred crumbs under said net and wait patiently for clouds of "blackeboords" (starlings) to settle under his net. I think you know the rest.
[COLOR=#333333]My Mum would prepare a tomato "meat" sauce adding a very small [COLOR=#333333]amount of sausage. The sauce was poured lovingly over a slab of polenta. It was delicious!!
[COLOR=#333333]Did I forget to tell you we grew up........humble.
No dog required. :)][/QUOTE]

This is funny, my grandmother told me stories of doing this back in Europe.