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http://news.nationalpost.com/news/wo...e-staying-home
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Posted from another forum
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/wo...e-staying-home
Thanks for the link. Interesting article to read for sure.
I haven't really been able to wrap my head around all of the numbers. But there are a few things that stand out to me.
Cecil was killed in July, the outcry didn't happen with well after that (as far as them losing customers from the "Cecil effect" it wouldn't have happened immediately the day Cecil was shot) So let's say it's been 6 months (and i feel that's an overly generous length of time that the "cecil effect" existed for)?
HOW, in 6 months of "lower customers" could their lion population balloon from 300 to 500??? It sounds to me like they're loosing money, and this is their PR attempt at getting hunters back.
They obviously have issues within the conservancy that have nothing to do with low hunter numbers if they have a 200 lion overpopulation in 6 months time. It's not like they would have normally had 200 hunters take 200 lions in the last 6 months, that would never be a sustainable model for a park that normally has 300 lions.
So i'm not sure what this ONE conservancy is doing so wrong (contraceptives and other issues are mentioned, in the article, and if you look them up they're fairly universally loathed for things like "kill a lion" raffles) but i can pretty well guarantee that losing hunters is not the major culprit in their overpopulation issue. Although i would believe they've lost a lot of money, and this is their attempt at publicizing the "we need to hunt lions, for the sake of the lions" stake in the game...
anyways, no judgement either way. just looks like a PR move to me, because even some basic math (and i will agree my math skills are always basic) pokes tons of holes in their assertion that "The "Cecil effect" is creating their overpopulation" propaganda."
Obviously we all believe in hunting. this is just an odd article, from an odd source, so i take it with a grain of salt.
How much are they paying per lion. What about airfare.
1500$ per raffle ticket. 100 tickets were being sold per lion. that's for an 18 day safari. no airfare included i don't believe.
they're a hunting reserve. and they're hurting for money.
How can the numbers increase that fast? Each pride in the park has a few lioness and each lioness will have four or more cubs, so in a year the numbers of lions forming new prides and looking for territory means that the park is too crowded to hold them and they move into the surrounding farms and other places outside the park. There are also more lions in the country then just the ones in the park.
I think it may be a matter that it didn't decrease that fast...hunters are required to cull the herds annual to keep the numbers balanced and if 200 hunters don't come to hunt, then that is 200 lions they have add to the next years target total.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
I wouldn't discount,out of hand, that this isn't about the lack of hunters. The over-the-top pubicity and international vilification of the hunter would absolutely have an adverse affect on others. People would be bat-shyte nuts to walk into that. The average African Safari can cost between $75K-$100K per hunter. No doubt,there's safaris that can be done on the cheap,but,I'm not aware of any. Now,if,for arguments sake,even 100 hunters pass up these areas and go elsewhere,that's a bucketload of loot out of the local economy which doesn't amount to much at the best of times.
Four cubs or more per lioness.
Wow. Better bring a semi auto.
When the first litter of cubs are weaned, the lioness can again enter estrus and a second litter is born before the surviving cubs of the first litter reach the age of 24 months and are forced out (males) or leave because of low social rank (females). So as long as the pride male is not driven off by an other male, a lioness can have two litters of cubs. One being weaned and the older one learning to hunt. Makes for a lot of lions coming down the pipe.Quote:
Originally Posted by glen
Not sure how everyone else feels but thats not really "hunting" as much as it is "skilled killing"...not sure anyone who has been on these hunts is actually eating lion... seems like only for a trophy for the egotistical kill crazy lunatic that just wants to shoot stuff to hang on the wall...I love hunting but killing for fun and hunting are definately different ideas. Anyone who pays to go on these adventures is rediculous. That being said if you live there and hunt lions for more than just a trophy thats great but doubtful the majority are. And if they need to do a cull to protect other species thats great...but fail to see why they should commercialize it and promote to outside the commumity/country. Its this type of "hunting" that makes us look bad in the public opinion...if they have an overpopulation than hire locals to get rid of them...its just a money grab because people pay so why not take their money..they could easily enough train or hire people to do this without the commercial aspect. If they need the money its a poor excuse for income IMO and its obvious the government under Mugabe is corrupt and not promoting wildlife managment...lets kill lions and charge tons of money to save the antelope and call ourselves wildlife conservationists...it may work but its not right.
You don't have any barn cats, do you ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
FYI,anti-hunters,anti-gunners and animal rights groups regularly troll these threads. I respect your opinion,but,comments like this can be re-printed and used against us. Think it all you like,but,please don't print it.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyAdams
Trimmer21 spot on!
No doubt Zimbabwe is a mixed up place and corrupt. I visited Victoria Falls last year and you don't have to go far from the tourist area to see that first hand. Zimbabwe used to be the bread basket of Africa, not anymore and not likely to change anytime soon. We shoot coyotes here to thin their numbers and protect our deer. Over there it's lions. Here our "plainsgame" deer, moose etc ... are protected by laws and we are fortunate enough to live in a society that is not completely impoverished and willing to shoot anything for meat or money. The funds generated through the sport hunting protect the parks and animals within. The government is not in a position to fund this and without the sport hunting the parks are finished. If Zimbabwe ever manages to achieve economic stability to the same level as North America (not likely) than we can apply our style of conservation/hunting to the wildlife management problems in the Zim parks.
It's not my cup of tea. I like beer anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyAdams
To keep the lands, protect them, the animals, hire anti poachers and all of the things required to keep these animals alive it takes money. Donations to WWF aren't going to cut it. Hunters pay the bill to keep these animals alive for the opportunity to hunt them. If you follow what happens you will see that just like hunters here nothing is wasted. The paying hunter will take his "trophy" to remember the experience and the locals benefit from getting the meat. There is a lot of money injected into the economy by this.
Conservation is more than protecting and hunting "edible" animals. And to be fair, we don't know that the meat from lion hunting isn't going to local villages (and yes, starving poor people in Africa will eat anything, google bushmeat). Hunting dollars have to go to protecting the legal game animals and their habitat. If the money doesn't go back into the animals, the animals won't be protected and they will be poached and wiped out (elephants are a great example of this, hunting dollars helps protect the herds in some African nations and those herds are strong and sustainable, other nations who don't have elephant hunting routinely see the animals poached because they aren't protected).Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyAdams
Before this entire "Cecil the Lion" thing happened, lions were a legal game animal in Zimbabwe (probably still are) to hunt (no different than coyotes here in Ontario except our coyotes only take dogs and cats when they are hungry instead of attacking humans). I highly doubt the hunters who go out and hunt lions have any different feeling when it comes to hunting lions than North American predator hunters have. Just because you don't forsee yourself hunting a legal game animal doesn't mean you should condemn others who do.
Legal hunting of animals can't make us look bad to anyone except the die-hard, rabid anti-hunting movement because we follow the laws and regulations laid out for us and practice responsible and safe weapon handling techniques. What makes hunters look bad is validating the preconceived image of an "Elmer Fudd" type hunter who is so vastly incompetent that he should have never gotten a license in the first place. Condemning lion hunters because they hunt a legal species or because they pay big bucks to hunt that species is vastly unfair because they are following the rules and regs while hunting a legal species. Most guys want to do a get away trip (moose in Alaska, caribou in Quebec/Labrador/Newfoundland, pheasants in South Dakota, waterfowling on the Praries, etc), those are all trips those guys have to pay for. Are all of those hunters paying for those "adventures" ridiculous? Those trips fall under your criteria of commercialized hunting (after all "if they have an overpopulation than hire locals to get rid of them").
Yes, it does cost a lot for hunting those species but if a person choses to spend their money on what they want, who are you to criticize them? Would you like that done to you in return? Can we all look at your bank account and criticize you for your financial expenditures like you are doing to them?
As for your comment about poor excuse needing the money for income, have you been to some of the places and have witnessed how poor these people are? Do you have a sustainable economic plan they can use for employment rather than relying on a proven one (the hunting industry)? Is Mugabe corrupt? Sure, I will buy that but right now there isn't an alternative for the people.
Finally, the opportunity to hunt species for money model works all over the world (any government who charges a fee in order for people to have the privilege to hunt is using it, some species cost more than others) and you participate in it when you go an buy your tags/licenses here in Ontario.
Dyth
are they including the cubs in the cull?
Most likely mostly males, with a few older females. All lioness will suckle any cub in the pride so the loss of a nursing female would not be the death of her cubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by glen
You have some valid points I did not consider and you do seem to know a bit about this situation but seem to have missed my general point and instead went on a smear campaign and twisted my words. It makes sense for starving people to have access to food and boost their economy. No I dont have an economical back up plan for Zimbabwe but I believe their approach could be improved upon. I could never see myself going to shoot an animal that would not be used but if the locals eat the meat I agree that aspect is beneficial. I wasnt thinking about feeding starving people so I agree that is a benefit of the program. you may be 100% right but I wouldnt doubt that further investigation would more than likely show this system is being abused and somebody is probably making a small fortune for themselves. 1500$x200 lions=300000. Thats a fair chunk of change to "misappropriate" even by Canadian political "standards". If 1st world Nations politics are corrupt you can bet 3rd world are just the same but it is nice to reserve hope that they are honest in their means. And next time you reply to my posts please feel free to leave out the personal attacks...my opinions were not directed at any 1 person, and I did however learn something from what you posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
Five THOUSAND square kilometres is a lot of bush to try and find your lion. We used to hunt 5000 acres, could never cover it all in a weeks deer hunt.
It doesn't take a lot of math when you project birth rates versus hunts that are booked years in advance to see the problem at the door.
GrizzlyAdams,Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyAdams
At no point in my posts were my comments meant to be directed or taken as a personal attack or a smear campaign. My questions were simply direct questions and because tone can't be conveyed across the internet (at least not yet) often comments are taken the wrong way. I wasn't twisting words or smearing you. I was responding to and quoting you from your post and asking follow-up questions because, to be honest, you had different points in your post (denouncing lion hunting/hunters, the economic abuse in Zimbabwe, denouncing "commercial" hunting) which were very scattered when in your first post. My questions were not coming from a place of attack. For example, I wanted to find out if you considered guys who pay for hunting trips in NA (fly in moose hunt for example) different than guys who pay for hunting trips in Africa regardless of the species (what you termed as commercialized hunting). Because most people will say they are different and try to defend the double standard they have in their minds.
Could rural people in Zimbabwe's situation be changed for the better? Absolutely but how? Most of the people who we are talking about earn yearly what you and I do in a day, they receive little to no education past primary school so they work at jobs which require little education (farm hands, labourers). The country relies heavily on it's natural resources and the cost of items we get for a reasonable price are astronomical. Most of what the country gets goes to the people at the top and short of invading the country to fix it, what alternatives do we have? In 2013, the GDP of Zimbabwe was $13.49 US billion with a GDP per capital of $953 US (which most people in Zimbabwe actually see much less of that). Honestly, the abuse in the system is much greater than simply $30 000. We get mad at those figures because our politicians are supposed to honest and above board. However, in countries like Zimbabwe, those at the top take the lion's share (I couldn't resist the pun). Getting our britches in a knot over $30 000 when there is a lot more abuse is like worrying about a single rat in a vermin infestation. And saying that $30 000 is the only amount of money involved is untrue as well when the safari ranches provide employment to locals as the lodging is added onto hunting safari's as well. My question about "if you have a sustainable economic plan rather than the current one" was valid because you are advocating shutting down one of these people's financial lifeline without having mentioned an alternative is doing them a great disservice as you would leave them poorer than they already are.
Will I ever lion hunt? I highly doubt it. It just isn't my thing. I really don't like to fly. But I don't think we should condemn lion hunters when we don't condemn coyote/wolf/bobcat/mountain lion hunters here in North America. That is a double standard and hypocritical of us. People who have desire to hunt lions work hard for their money (just like you and I do) and they should be able to spend it as they choose to without sniping from the rest of us as long as it is legally done. If they want to hunt a lion and it is legal, I wish them the best of luck. The same as I would wish someone the best of luck on a polar bear hunt or a deer hunt or a waterfowl hunt, etc. If they choose to spend even more of their money on mounting the lion's head on the wall, how is that different than mounting a person's first buck on the wall? The notion that one type of hunting is less noble than another so it must be wrong or stopped is very dangerous to us because it weakens us as a group as it invites groups who have an agenda to ban a form of hunting to use hunter's words for their own agenda. For example, there was a safari show which was protested in Concord (which had to be moved twice because the venues kicked them out because of pressure): http://www.insidehalton.com/news-sto...-hunting-show/. Now the group involved didn't even have to use a hunter's words to get what they wanted but could you imagine how impactful their statements would be if they said "we want to shut down Africa safaris and we have North American hunters who agree"?
I have an Australian friend who has two jobs. His first job is in the dairy business. His second job is a professional kangaroo culler. He gets paid to shoot kangaroos because they are a massive problem. And make no mistake, he doesn't hunt them. He spotlights them (legal as they only come out at night) and other allowable practices which NA hunters aren't allowed to do. The Australian government even sells the meat at domestically and internationally to offset the cost of the cull. That I think is way more commercial than a lion hunt. However, this is the solution to the kangaroo over-population problem in Australia that the Australia government (people) have come up with and we can't condone it because we don't live there and to be frank, I don't think there is a better solution.
Again, allow me to re-iterate that what I am saying isn't a personal attack towards you but a vastly difference of opinion and I would like clarification on your comments. I am not shouting you down by disagreeing with you and I want discussion about topics like this because disseminating information is valuable and it will help us when we come up against people who rely on personal opinion rather than hard facts.
Dyth
Hey Dyth !
Very well stated , I like it ! clear precise and to the point.:goodstuff: :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
DYTH :thumbup: :thumbup:
Thanks Well said!
Just watched a 20/20 on this hunt and found it pretty interesting.The hunt cost the dentist $55,000.It did not get off to a good start as the hunters baggage got lost at the airport.When he eventually got his stuff together the location on a private ranch had changed to another private ranch that was prohibited from having lion hunts.The hunt took place under the cover of darkness and the lions were baited into the ranch with a dragged carcass .Cecil was shot with a bow from 40 yards while blinded by a powerful search light.
The lion was wounded and no attempt was made to follow up on it that night.The hunters returned at 9am the following morning and finished the lion off with a second arrow.They immediately cut the head and skin off.They also realized they had shot a collared lion and decided to try and cover their tracks.
Evidence from the tracking collar indicated a "human" took the collar and made a circular route in the bush for several days after the lion was dead.The batteries for the collar were removed and the actual collar has never been recovered.The ranch owner has not produced legal permits for this hunt to this day.The hunter in question is in hiding.
The locals are not that concerned with lions being killed as they are considered dangerous.Interesting show to watch.
The method used to hunt Cecil was legal and a common practice. Now as for the hunter being in hiding. Who is he hiding from? The local Zimbabwe court has his statements from when he returned to answer questions, and was clear of any wrong doing. Zimbabwe government and court says he did nothing wrong, he is NOT being charged with anything, and he is free to return to hunt any time he likes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Sounds like 20/20 did not follow up at all, or the story was recorded before all the facts were known.
The dentist went back to work after all the media hype had been shot down by the Zimbabwean courts. They hung the outfitters from their thumbs,but,the hunter was found not to be guilty of any offense and wasn't charged. The 20/20 article was an old report made shortly after the story broke and has since been thoroughly exposed as misinformation without substance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
[COLOR=#333333]" The 20/20 article was an old report made shortly after the story broke and has since been thoroughly exposed as misinformation without substance."
Can you provide the readers with how this story has been exposed as misinformation without substance?
Nope! They know how to do their own research if they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
[COLOR=#333333]'Is this a joke. He didn't have papers to hunt a protected lion with a radio collar.
[COLOR=#333333]Zimbabwe is a joke...this is just to protect their hunting industry.'
Just some comment I picked up doing my research.