US v/s Them... (us?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GuyJR

My favourite part of Cuba was the fact that it was no full of Americans.

---

Ya sure - but when the time comes that your country needs to be protected you'll be glad that the Americans are around to save your - you basically depend on us now for protection otherwise you would have to spend billions to provide that same protection by yourself - there isn't a country on this earth that has spend more treasure and blood helping other countries when they were in trouble - maybe your too young to even know about this fact - I suggest you take some time away from your video games and study up on history

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

Ya sure - but when the time comes that your country needs to be protected you'll be glad that the Americans are around to save your - you basically depend on us now for protection otherwise you would have to spend billions to provide that same protection by yourself - there isn't a country on this earth that has spend more treasure and blood helping other countries when they were in trouble - maybe your too young to even know about this fact - I suggest you take some time away from your video games and study up on history

---

Hmm.....interesting post Joe.

Now let's back that one up with some credible sources, shall we?

Canada = part of the British Commonwealth, and we've done very nicely participating in same. Lots of peacekeeping, over the years, in hundreds of locations.

The old saw that " You'll be glad we're here to save your ____" is just tripe. The USA has declined Peacekeeping operations in many locales because they didn't want to cede C&C to another body, they also have stuck their faces in lots of conflicts that they had no absolute reason to other than the specter of "Communism" and "red scare". But according to your sources, it was probably "helping"....

Show me, with credible info, where the USA provides Canada with any protections? Last I checked, we provide our own air defence, we patrol the NW passage with our own frigates and icebreakers, we provide our own intelligence in all security matters.

The hubris you display is the very arrogance, which makes you an ok neighbor, but we're glad we have that fence. Same reason why we like to have a quiet spot in the Carribean ( like Cuba) where we can vacation away from you.

Now, you want to talk about being dependent on others....OK, just for a sec, imagine your country had to depend on its own resources to sustain its 300 million people.....water, oil, lumber, food, consumer goods......

Who really relies on whom?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

Hmm.....interesting post Joe.

Now let's back that one up with some credible sources, shall we?

Canada = part of the British Commonwealth, and we've done very nicely participating in same. Lots of peacekeeping, over the years, in hundreds of locations.

The old saw that " You'll be glad we're here to save your ____" is just tripe. The USA has declined Peacekeeping operations in many locales because they didn't want to cede C&C to another body, they also have stuck their faces in lots of conflicts that they had no absolute reason to other than the specter of "Communism" and "red scare". But according to your sources, it was probably "helping"....

Show me, with credible info, where the USA provides Canada with any protections? Last I checked, we provide our own air defence, we patrol the NW passage with our own frigates and icebreakers, we provide our own intelligence in all security matters.

The hubris you display is the very arrogance, which makes you an ok neighbor, but we're glad we have that fence. Same reason why we like to have a quiet spot in the Carribean ( like Cuba) where we can vacation away from you.

Now, you want to talk about being dependent on others....OK, just for a sec, imagine your country had to depend on its own resources to sustain its 300 million people.....water, oil, lumber, food, consumer goods......

Who really relies on whom?

---

I think what he really meant was "Be happy you are not the #51!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

Ya sure - but when the time comes that your country needs to be protected you'll be glad that the Americans are around to save your - you basically depend on us now for protection otherwise you would have to spend billions to provide that same protection by yourself - there isn't a country on this earth that has spend more treasure and blood helping other countries when they were in trouble - maybe your too young to even know about this fact - I suggest you take some time away from your video games and study up on history

---

I agree many countries should and does thanks you, there is no doubt, but it never been about help Joe. It always been about money....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by seabast

I think what he really meant was "Be happy you are not the #51!"

---

They tried. We burnt the White House down for their troubles.......an inconvenient fact that the USA forgets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

They tried. We burnt the White House down for their troubles.......an inconvenient fact that the USA forgets.

---

Shazam!!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

Hmm.....interesting post Joe.

Now let's back that one up with some credible sources, shall we?

Canada = part of the British Commonwealth, and we've done very nicely participating in same. Lots of peacekeeping, over the years, in hundreds of locations.

The old saw that " You'll be glad we're here to save your ____" is just tripe. The USA has declined Peacekeeping operations in many locales because they didn't want to cede C&C to another body, they also have stuck their faces in lots of conflicts that they had no absolute reason to other than the specter of "Communism" and "red scare". But according to your sources, it was probably "helping"....

Show me, with credible info, where the USA provides Canada with any protections? Last I checked, we provide our own air defence, we patrol the NW passage with our own frigates and icebreakers, we provide our own intelligence in all security matters.

The hubris you display is the very arrogance, which makes you an ok neighbor, but we're glad we have that fence. Same reason why we like to have a quiet spot in the Carribean ( like Cuba) where we can vacation away from you.

Now, you want to talk about being dependent on others....OK, just for a sec, imagine your country had to depend on its own resources to sustain its 300 million people.....water, oil, lumber, food, consumer goods......

Who really relies on whom?

---

Bluebulldog,

as much as I respect your points above and your patriotism, Joe does have a point,

the Cold War was won with American money and determination, I think Canada obviously has capable people in the military but there are so few of them and they're so underfunded how can we possibly think that our world would be the same without the USA to offset the former USSR ?

we're often quite smug about our health care and social programs and sometimes look down upon Americans for not having these, but the reality is that Canada has developed these programs by letting others pick up our obligations

Navy supply ships that break down and need to be towed home, 50 year old Sea Kings whose replacement program has been bumbled for 20 years, the national shipbuilding strategy that can't get off the ground...the list goes on, and is a disservice to those who serve us

Blue' - man I don't know where to begin - it would take me all day to fully answer your comments - briefly - there wouldn't be a British Commonwealth if the US didn't enter the war against Germany when it did - England was on its knees during WWII and Churchill knew it and said so - it was initially the US's aid that kept England alive and than our superior military power that won the war - without it England would not exist today

Sure Canada has a small military but it is no where near enough to protect itself from a power like Russia - there are a lot of countries throughout the world that depend on the US for protection today - I could list them all but don't have the time -

Yes the US fought the communist in several places and stood up to them otherwise you would be under communist rule today - at end of WWII we were the most powerful country on this earth - we were the only country with the Bomb if we had any intention of taking over the world nobody could have stopped us - so it wasn't money that caused us to get involved

And then finally - the US has enough water - between the oil, coal and gas we have more than enough energy for our needs - maybe you don't know it but we are now exporting all three of these energy sources - we are basically self sufficient - expect maybe for maple syrup and bacon from Canada -

You forgot beer Joe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

Blue' - man I don't know where to begin - it would take me all day to fully answer your comments - briefly - there wouldn't be a British Commonwealth if the US didn't enter the war against Germany when it did - England was on its knees during WWII and Churchill knew it and said so - it was initially the US's aid that kept England alive and than our superior military power that won the war - without it England would not exist today

Sure Canada has a small military but it is no where near enough to protect itself from a power like Russia - there are a lot of countries throughout the world that depend on the US for protection today - I could list them all but don't have the time -

Yes the US fought the communist in several places and stood up to them otherwise you would be under communist rule today - at end of WWII we were the most powerful country on this earth - we were the only country with the Bomb if we had any intention of taking over the world nobody could have stopped us - so it wasn't money that caused us to get involved

And then finally - the US has enough water - between the oil, coal and gas we have more than enough energy for our needs - maybe you don't know it but we are now exporting all three of these energy sources - we are basically self sufficient - expect maybe for maple syrup and bacon from Canada -

---

Your BS is why so much of the world hate the US, you and you alone are the center of the universe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

Blue' - man I don't know where to begin - it would take me all day to fully answer your comments - briefly - there wouldn't be a British Commonwealth if the US didn't enter the war against Germany when it did - England was on its knees during WWII and Churchill knew it and said so - it was initially the US's aid that kept England alive and than our superior military power that won the war - without it England would not exist today

Sure Canada has a small military but it is no where near enough to protect itself from a power like Russia - there are a lot of countries throughout the world that depend on the US for protection today - I could list them all but don't have the time -

Yes the US fought the communist in several places and stood up to them otherwise you would be under communist rule today - at end of WWII we were the most powerful country on this earth - we were the only country with the Bomb if we had any intention of taking over the world nobody could have stopped us - so it wasn't money that caused us to get involved

And then finally - the US has enough water - between the oil, coal and gas we have more than enough energy for our needs - maybe you don't know it but we are now exporting all three of these energy sources - we are basically self sufficient - expect maybe for maple syrup and bacon from Canada -

---

You invaded Irak in 2003 and as of today it's still a mess so where is the victory?
You might decimate an army but that's about it. Peoles will always fight the invader, that's called "Terorism".

If it wasn't about money why the US and others let the German build up an army after the first war, when there were not supposed to (Treaty of Versailles)? You really think no one knew what was going to happen?! It's always happen money.....

avoiding this one, largely because the world is rarely black or white. Normally grey. For those chirping about the US, Joe has valid points. Not the least of which is.
Much of our life/wealth is due to the US..their foreign policy. Further Anyone naïve enough to think it's anyone but the US keeping others at bay or in the North.........

however.
Re WWII. While it's true the US "saved" the world. It wasn't your military power Joe. Virtually all historians (outside Hollywood) agree, 1) your equipment was poor and not up to snuff 2) Most of your generals about the same. The difference was your industrial might, and ability to mass produce, cheap but lots of it. Kinda like China today

Further, you sat on the sidelines for years. Let the commonwealth take it on the chin for years. In short you let the heavy weights beat the snot out of each other (see why your industrial might turned it around). Had you gone toe to toe with the Nazis for years while the commonwealth sat on the sidelines...You'd a been in dire straights to....

As for the rest.
/pass
We sure are smug for a country that owes a lot to the US. Incuding much of our present wealth/way of life. In some ways we like the US back in WWII like to sit on the sidelines, reap all the benefits of US foreign policy...........and when it suits us, look down our noses.

Shades of grey

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 73hunter

Bluebulldog,
.the list goes on, and is a disservice to those who serve us

---

Do a little digging 73, I was one of them.

JB , I agree with most of what you say, we do owe them a lot, but the reason some people dislike Americans is their ATTITUDE. ps . my step-grandfather was an American and he had it in spades.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

Blue' - man I don't know where to begin - it would take me all day to fully answer your comments - briefly - there wouldn't be a British Commonwealth if the US didn't enter the war against Germany when it did - England was on its knees during WWII and Churchill knew it and said so - it was initially the US's aid that kept England alive and than our superior military power that won the war - without it England would not exist today

Sure Canada has a small military but it is no where near enough to protect itself from a power like Russia - there are a lot of countries throughout the world that depend on the US for protection today - I could list them all but don't have the time -

Yes the US fought the communist in several places and stood up to them otherwise you would be under communist rule today - at end of WWII we were the most powerful country on this earth - we were the only country with the Bomb if we had any intention of taking over the world nobody could have stopped us - so it wasn't money that caused us to get involved

And then finally - the US has enough water - between the oil, coal and gas we have more than enough energy for our needs - maybe you don't know it but we are now exporting all three of these energy sources - we are basically self sufficient - expect maybe for maple syrup and bacon from Canada -

---

Ah, see...there you go....

"I would answer your post with fact....but don't have time....."

Translation: You'd actually have to d a lot more digging and fabricating to justify your position.

No one said that the US didn't contribute to the success in WWII. But you're basing our current relations on the state of the world as it stood 0ver 70 years ago? REALLY?!. Gee Joe, here's a fact for you, at the conclusion of WWII, Canada had the worlds 3rd largest Navy....go ahead, look it up.....

You really have drunk the Kool Aid. "If the US hadn't fought the communists we would be under communist rule today".....yeah, sure. Show anyone how that sounds credible outside the McCarthy era USA... Oh right, I'm sure the USSR would have just kept right on marching through South Vietnam, or South Korea, right on across to where we are.... well Cuba was, and is communist, and despite your Countries Bay of Pigs fiasco.....seems to continue to be, and hasn't invaded nearby Haiti, etc.

Your country does not have enough energy reserves, resources, nor enough arable farmland to effectively look after its own needs. Asserting that you're self sufficient, is fallacy, but then why point out fact, since you obviously are content to drive off the cliff being willfully ignorant.

You referenced for a poster to educate themselves on history, ok...look up the fall of the Roman empire, vis-a-vis dependence on outside elements, resources, immigrant labour, war as a means of economic growth... You're living it pal, complete with the bad hairdo on Donald Trump replicating every bad performance ever to take place in an amphitheater.

Since you don't like doing research to fact check...here's a little bedtime reading.

http://americanresources.org/u-s-min...spell-trouble/

https://www.aei.org/publication/dang...-raw-material/

http://www.cfr.org/oil/timeline-oil-...-policy/p24322

http://www.navalreview.ca/wp-content...l5num3art2.pdf

Shades of grey G. :)
Also, don't over look the power of the media and Hollywood.

Some societies firmly believe the West is Satan or that their emperor is the descendant of the Sun goddess. Some societies grow up fed a steady diet of John Wayne and saving private Ryan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

JB , I agree with most of what you say, we do owe them a lot, but the reason some people dislike Americans is their ATTITUDE. ps . my step-grandfather was an American and he had it in spades.

---

Look guys....I'm not anti-American. I've got several friends and family that are. But I also have a problem with arrogance, and ignorance, coming from anyone.....and for the record, I didn't want to hijack this thread, but Joe-Pa definitely started it.

...Your country does not have enough energy reserves, resources, nor enough arable farmland to effectively look after its own needs. Asserting that you're self sufficient, is fallacy, but then why point out fact, since you obviously are content to drive off the cliff being willfully ignorant....

There's a little ignorance about the US of A right there.^^^^

The US has always been able to grow its own food.

As for oil, have a look at this.

http://energy.gov/maps/us-crude-oil-...es-net-imports

Also Joe, re the "rise of the US" following WWII.

When you sit on the sidelines for years, let others beat the snot out of each other....Well basically the rest of the world was knocked back into the stone ages and had to rebuild entire cities.
London
Moscow
Berlin
To name 3.

The US?
Well you took it on the chin in Pearl harbor.....but did it take a couple decades to rebuild?

The benefits I guess of sitting on the sidelines and being half a world away.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...on&FORM=IQFRML

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by werner.reiche

...Your country does not have enough energy reserves, resources, nor enough arable farmland to effectively look after its own needs. Asserting that you're self sufficient, is fallacy, but then why point out fact, since you obviously are content to drive off the cliff being willfully ignorant....

There's a little ignorance about the US of A right there.^^^^

The US has always been able to grow its own food.

As for oil, have a look at this.

http://energy.gov/maps/us-crude-oil-...es-net-imports

---

Werner, the US has been able historically to grow its own food, sure. Their exports outpace their imports, but to be fair, the make up of those exports, vs. what they are importing is important. Export of raw goods, import of finished and processed goods. It doesn't necessarily mean they're "self reliant".

Neither does showing oil production vs. demand really indicate self sufficiency either. It's their reserves, and their ability to exist without bringing in resources from outside their borders.

On behalf of all Canadians I apologize for Nickelback Joe,, No one deserves that audio torture and I hope we can still be friends.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hunter John

On behalf of all Canadians I apologize for Nickelback Joe,, No one deserves that audio torture and I hope we can still be friends.

---

Hahahahaahaha!...Yeah...sorry Joe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hunter John

On behalf of all Canadians I apologize for Nickelback Joe,, No one deserves that audio torture and I hope we can still be friends.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

Hahahahaahaha!...Yeah...sorry Joe.

---

Alright,knock it off! You just made me spray beer all over the screen.ROFL!

Hey - I didn't start this - some guys made the comment that they were glad no Americans were in Cuba - I only wanted to point that they should look up history and see what America has done to preserve freedom around the world - and be glad that America is around -

As far as other countries not liking America - "frankly my dear - I don't give a damn" - taken from Red Butler in Gone With the Wind -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gj5aLQIEQo - frankly my dear -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

Hey - I didn't start this - some guys made the comment that they were glad no Americans were in Cuba - I only wanted to point that they should look up history and see what America has done to preserve freedom around the world - and be glad that America is around -

As far as other countries not liking America - "frankly my dear - I don't give a damn" - taken from Red Butler in Gone With the Wind -

---

We're just worried our US friends will drink all the beer and eat all the bacon in Cuba and leave us with nothing. As long as you're willing to share, we should be alright.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hunter John

On behalf of all Canadians I apologize for Nickelback Joe,, No one deserves that audio torture and I hope we can still be friends.

---

I think a bigger apology is due for Justin Bieber!

Joe can you come and get Micheal Moore and we will take care of the Biebs?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

Werner, the US has been able historically to grow its own food, sure. Their exports outpace their imports, but to be fair, the make up of those exports, vs. what they are importing is important. Export of raw goods, import of finished and processed goods. It doesn't necessarily mean they're "self reliant".

Neither does showing oil production vs. demand really indicate self sufficiency either. It's their reserves, and their ability to exist without bringing in resources from outside their borders.

---

Just because they import things because its cheaper doesn't mean they are not self sufficient. Oil is a good example. They were producing enough (and were even exporting it). But with OPEC driving the price down to get the high cost producers out of the market (Canada,US), the US is shutting down rigs and importing. It's not that they aren't self sufficient - its just bad economics to burn more expensive domestic oil when you can burn imported Saudi oil cheaper.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DGearyFTE

I think a bigger apology is due for Justin Bieber!

---

Never heard of her.???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DGearyFTE

I think a bigger apology is due for Justin Bieber!

---

True but the US owes us an apology for creed, Florida Georgia Line and all the other pop bro country out now.

I won't get into the other stuff with Joe. Having actually met the guy he's pretty decent.

JoePa hope you make it up this fall for quinte and you still owe me my beer for The Obama bet :)

Lol,, all the metrosexual country music lately is overbearing. I will stick with Johnny, willie, hank, the possum and Conway thank you very much. Oh,, Steve Earl too , lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hunter John

Lol,, all the metrosexual country music lately is overbearing. I will stick with Johnny, willie, hank, the possum and Conway thank you very much. Oh,, Steve Earl too , lol

---

How right you are! My favorite radio station in the truck is SiriusXM59....Willie's Roadhouse. You won't hear any of that Brokeback Mountain whinin' crap there.LOL

^^^^ what he said!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

Blue' - man I don't know where to begin - it would take me all day to fully answer your comments - briefly - there wouldn't be a British Commonwealth if the US didn't enter the war against Germany when it did - England was on its knees during WWII and Churchill knew it and said so - it was initially the US's aid that kept England alive and than our superior military power that won the war - without it England would not exist today

Sure Canada has a small military but it is no where near enough to protect itself from a power like Russia - there are a lot of countries throughout the world that depend on the US for protection today - I could list them all but don't have the time -

Yes the US fought the communist in several places and stood up to them otherwise you would be under communist rule today - at end of WWII we were the most powerful country on this earth - we were the only country with the Bomb if we had any intention of taking over the world nobody could have stopped us - so it wasn't money that caused us to get involved

And then finally - the US has enough water - between the oil, coal and gas we have more than enough energy for our needs - maybe you don't know it but we are now exporting all three of these energy sources - we are basically self sufficient - expect maybe for maple syrup and bacon from Canada -

---

Joe - your last three points there are valid - but that about the US in Europe in WW II??? Seriously?? Do they even print that in US history books??

Initially I was loath to wade into this discussion given that I am not anti-American and I have some fairly strong ties with our cousins to the south.

Let's be clear, the American public was unwilling to support WWII until 7 Dec 1941. Prior to this US companies made $$millions selling to war materials to Great Britain as it stood alone defending the world. When Churchill stated that Britain was on its knees, he really meant that it had drained the coffers, there was no money left while the US stood by safe from harm and soaked up the profits from the war. Following WWII, the UK continued to impose rationing into the mid-50s while it slowly rebuilt the infrastructure of the country devastated by the bombings. Meanwhile, the US propped up both Japan and Germany to rebuild factories and infrastructure which of course meant more money for American companies. So, yes there is really no question that the USA emerged as the new superpower following WWII given $$$ harvested during and after.

Now let's look at the A-bomb. As I recall history the Manhattan Project had the support of both Canada and the Great Britain. The team members were no solely American, in fact many were imported since the US did not possess the knowledge base to develop nuclear technology on its own. An inconvenient truth that Hollywood tends to skip the part where considerable support was given by the Montreal Labs. Canada went on to have the first self sustaining nuclear reactor in Sept 1945 (outside the one in the US that was the prototype).

I find it interesting that the US version of history is so smug about the Cold War given that the US stood idle in a secret deal to allow the USSR to annex half of Europe. One could make the observation that Europe was saved by the US from German rule only to be handed over to the USSR in the decade that followed. If the US had used the A-bomb there was potential for countless millions in Europe to have been spared the loss of freedom under the Communists.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hunter John

Lol,, all the metrosexual country music lately is overbearing. I will stick with Johnny, willie, hank, the possum and Conway thank you very much. Oh,, Steve Earl too , lol

---

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...724f042131.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cantcatchacold

True but the US owes us an apology for creed, Florida Georgia Line and all the other pop bro country out now.

I won't get into the other stuff with Joe. Having actually met the guy he's pretty decent.

JoePa hope you make it up this fall for quinte and you still owe me my beer for The Obama bet :)

---

You know I actually brought a case of beer up with me the last time we had the BOQ get together - somehow you wasn't there - so we all drank it - but whenever we get together again I'll bring up another case of Yuengling - I have to laugh when I read about those people going to Cuba and bragging about the beer down there - only goes to show you that they must be used to drinking P___ and don't have a clue what good beer taste like - Cuba may be known for having some good things but it surely ain't beer -

There is a military channel on TV that I watch a lot - it is like the history channel but restricts itself to military topics - and one thing that is shown is how England was fighting for its life and without the aide that was being sent by the US early in the war England would have gone down - Churchill even told Roosevelt that if the US didn't enter the war England was lost - we were sending aide before we entered the war - but as you say - it was our industrial might that was a big factor in defeating Germany - as the war went on we were manufacturing better and better weapons - our fighter planes took over the sky - our bombers grew bigger and bigger - like so many subsequent wars - air power was the predominate force to be dealt with -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DGearyFTE

Now let's look at the A-bomb. As I recall history the Manhattan Project had the support of both Canada and the Great Britain. The team members were no solely American, in fact many were imported since the US did not possess the knowledge base to develop nuclear technology on its own. An inconvenient truth that Hollywood tends to skip the part where considerable support was given by the Montreal Labs. Canada went on to have the first self sustaining nuclear reactor in Sept 1945 (outside the one in the US that was the prototype).

---

Don't forget the German Jewish brain drain, without the exodus of German scientists the Allies would never have had nuclear fission Leo Szilard, Albert Einstein, Eugene Wigner, Edward Teller, Hans Bethe, they all left from various German and Austro-Hungarian lands and moved to work on the building of the A-Bomb and in turn nuclear power as a whole. Here is a link to some Canadian info, http://nuclearsafety.gc.ca/eng/resou...evelopment.cfm , we actually mined and supplied the raw material from the north west territories, but again our tiny army could do nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

There is a military channel on TV that I watch a lot - it is like the history channel but restricts itself to military topics - and one thing that is shown is how England was fighting for its life and without the aide that was being sent by the US early in the war England would have gone down - Churchill even told Roosevelt that if the US didn't enter the war England was lost - we were sending aide before we entered the war - but as you say - it was our industrial might that was a big factor in defeating Germany - as the war went on we were manufacturing better and better weapons - our fighter planes took over the sky - our bombers grew bigger and bigger - like so many subsequent wars - air power was the predominate force to be dealt with -

---

Watch some documentaries that were not produced by Americans and see how things differ.

Here is one on the Spitfire, one of the easiest to build and best defense aircraft of the war, it did not have the range to reach Germany but it did not have to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDzZnCkbxgs

Here is one on the Canadian Navy, the third largest navy in the world at the end of the world with 90000 personnel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOHQHF34ORQ

If you want to talk about the reason for the failure of the German war effort you can look East, the eastern front was a major contributor to the downfall of the German army. If Hitler kept his pact with Stalin the outcome of the war would have been much different.

If anyone else is interested check out this movie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_of_the_Few

It is a movie based on the design of the spitfire, it was released in 42, not in the 60s like many of the war movies.

These types of movies were part of my growing up, grandpa was too young to fly in the war but bought a trainer post war and learned aerobatics out of Waterloo Wellington airport.

DGeary' What you posted is correct as far as I know - yes the west gave eastern Europe over to the communist - something that was a terrible thing to do - it wasn't only the U.S. decision to do that - I think Stalin fooled the west in believing that those would be given freedom to determine their own future

As far as the A Bomb is concerned - yes other countries were involved but in the end the US was the only country that actually had the bomb

When you look back in history the US made a lot of mistakes - it's intentions were mostly good but politicians screwed things up very badly - and when you look at what is going on now it is even worse - one thing to remember is that the US is made up of people with a lot of different options as being shown in our current election process - our next election will in my opinion pretty much determine what kind of country we will be going forward

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cantcatchacold

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...724f042131.jpg

---

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

Watch some documentaries that were not produced by Americans and see how things differ.

Here is one on the Spitfire, one of the easiest to build and best defense aircraft of the war, it did not have the range to reach Germany but it did not have to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDzZnCkbxgs

Here is one on the Canadian Navy, the third largest navy in the world at the end of the world with 90000 personnel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOHQHF34ORQ

If you want to talk about the reason for the failure of the German war effort you can look East, the eastern front was a major contributor to the downfall of the German army. If Hitler kept his pact with Stalin the outcome of the war would have been much different.

---

Fox is correct, Germany failed to take the island of Crete multiple times, that's when the US came in and the war was won. Hitler Stated he Cretans were the reason his plan failed.

Joe, please don't get your back up as this is not meant personally. For starters I love the US and if I was god, I'd create my Utopia by blending the best parts of both our countries.

Re "history"
It should be evident, that the worlds view is very different from US's view. You know what they say about the history books being written by the victors. 70 years later, thats a lot of people growing up with a very insular, distorted and in some ways thanks to Hollywood Myopic view point. If you want a recent example this see Argo (which distorted the facts grossly)...In 40-60 years, people (Americans) will "believe" that's what it was really like...and what happened.

The Luftwaffe with few exceptions had the best planes and airforce. Period. The Spitfire as Fox rightly pointed out is also up there. As with the Japanese zero...........So many more examples. By the time the US entered the fray the RAF and Luftwaffe had been pummelling each other....

Ultimately as Fox mentioned, the Eastern Front was perhaps the biggest reason...........We'll never know.
The Battle of the Bulge is often viewed as another huge turning point.

The world's view
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...-of-the-bulge/

The USs view
G GS Pattons critial manouvering
Clarks brilliant

Gee if the rest of the world didn't know any better one might think it was only the US army bleeding. And simple fact of the matter is, is was doomed to failure no matter what.......But oh know, Patton, the 101st, blah blah blah

Oorah
http://www.history.com/topics/world-...e-of-the-bulge

And on and on and on
:)

As we here in TO say (referring to a football team)
Aaaarrrrrgo!...Not not Ben Aflecks award winning piece of typical Hollywood revisionism
:)

Fox,

Telling JoePa anything else other than what he thinks is right is like bashing your head against the wall. At some point, all you end up with is a massive headache. Anything JoePa has posted in relation to "how the US saved the world" is said to us because he wears rose-coloured glasses.

JoePa,

Aid is freely given. What the US did for Britain should never, ever be called aid. It was war profiteering. As well, you weren't always playing the friend to Britain either. Multiple US companies helped Germany both prior to and during the war. Stop trying to rewrite history to make the US into some kind of super country which did everything right. It reeks of an inferiority complex which no one in the world has time to deal with.

Dyth

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dythbringer

Fox,

Telling JoePa anything else other than what he thinks is right is like bashing your head against the wall. At some point, all you end up with is a massive headache. Anything JoePa has posted in relation to "how the US saved the world" is said to us because he wears rose-coloured glasses.

Dyth

---

I guess I am just trying to pass along a little British Commonwealth history.

I love history, every conversation with my late grandfather involved history and every elective I took in school was history. The problem is that history is written by the victors, to get a proper view all sides need to be view and the reality is that war on all sides is a horrible thing, there are never winners or losers, there are the guys who lost and the guys who lost less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

I guess I am just trying to pass along a little British Commonwealth history.

I love history, every conversation with my late grandfather involved history and every elective I took in school was history. The problem is that history is written by the victors, to get a proper view all sides need to be view and the reality is that war on all sides is a horrible thing, there are never winners or losers, there are the guys who lost and the guys who lost less.

---

Nothing wrong with trying to pass along a bit of history or learning about it from other sources. Problem is the person you are speaking to doesn't want to learn because they think they have the answers.

I am a lot like you. I love our history as a nation. I have had the opportunity to visit Juno beach/Vimy memorial (and graveyards of either side). And yes, I also volunteer information in a quest to help others get education but there are some people who despite your best efforts to help, won't listen.

I would argue that there were winners in war. Looking at WW2, businesses flourished because of the war. People lost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dythbringer

I would argue that there were winners in war. Looking at WW2, businesses flourished because of the war. People lost.

---

Corporations won, ya, you are right there.

I told my wife if I were to travel to Europe it would be to tour the battle fields, she can go to Paris, I will go to Dunkirk.

We are actually going to North Carolina for a wedding in July, Gettysburg happens to be exactly half way, guess where we are spend en evening walking around and reading, yep, I will be learning about US military history from the source :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

Ya sure - but when the time comes that your country needs to be protected you'll be glad that the Americans are around to save your - you basically depend on us now for protection otherwise you would have to spend billions to provide that same protection by yourself - there isn't a country on this earth that has spend more treasure and blood helping other countries when they were in trouble - maybe your too young to even know about this fact - I suggest you take some time away from your video games and study up on history

---

It looks like I started this in another thread and missed all the fun. You seem like a lot of the Americans I have meet on Caribbean islands. Lots of opinions on world history and the great things you country has done. Problem is most are exaggerated or completely false. Not by the fault of there own but its what they were taught and it makes them feel good inside. I am not going to reply to any points you make specifically as it seems like that has been done well for me. " [COLOR=#333333]I suggest you take some time away from your video games" this was my favourite line from this post. Considering it comes from a guy with many times the posts and Im sure hours spent on a site about the outdoors in another country. Wont your internet friends in Pennsylvania play with you any more? Cant understand why?

Fox you will likely get more truth at Gettysburg (been there), than about any world wars , because there it was Americans shooting Americans, pretty hard to whitewash that. ps. If you have time, visit Luray caverns well worth the side trip.

If you are interested this is a good read of the events leading up to, during and after WWII -https://history.state.gov/milestones/1937-1945/un

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

Don't forget the German Jewish brain drain, without the exodus of German scientists the Allies would never have had nuclear fission Leo Szilard, Albert Einstein, Eugene Wigner, Edward Teller, Hans Bethe, they all left from various German and Austro-Hungarian lands and moved to work on the building of the A-Bomb and in turn nuclear power as a whole. Here is a link to some Canadian info, http://nuclearsafety.gc.ca/eng/resou...evelopment.cfm , we actually mined and supplied the raw material from the north west territories, but again our tiny army could do nothing.

---

In addition to that after the war was over the Yanks snagged 1500 Nazi scientists during operation "paperclip" including Wernher von Braun. It was not Americans that put America on the moon it was former nazi Wernher von Braun and his gaggle of former nazi scientists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._United_States

Can't believe no one mentioned our mulsam brother that help during the WW2!!!

Hey, let not forget the Avro. While our population ensures we could never be a super power. We simply don't have the means to create industry, let alone build and pay for a large military. Many still think, the world would be very different had Deif not cancelled the Avro, which was far ahead of anything at the time. So instead of most of the advancements and industry being in the US, maybe a lot would be here.

Let's not bash the US too much. While it may be true, they think a little too much of themselves ( whose to blame?), there's still lots of truth to the flip side. And we really shouldn't be all that smug. We've got the US to thank for much of our wealth, way of life and more.

Points towards some current issues.
/ISIL
/The far North
/Alberta and Oil
/gutting our military
and more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

Hey, let not forget the Avro.

---

I recall the Avro Arrow all too well. In building the Orenda Iroquois engines the program produced the two tons of malleable titanium in the world. The engine had the highest thrust-to-weight ratio of any engine at the time, so much so that it was able to replace all of the B-47's engines in flight (The USAF loaned a B-47 to Canada in order to conduct airborne tests of the engine).

There were many, many other innovations provided by that program. I think the most interesting product of the Arrow legacy is what happened to the engineers following the cancellation. Interestingly enough they went south to join NASA. When Apollo went to the moon in '69 the NASA team had over 30 engineers from that program.

http://www.avroarrow.org/AvroArrow/Avroengineers.html

Some other random innovations... Made in Canada

- Variable pitch propeller
- g-suit worn by pilots to keep them from greying out during high g-load maneuvers
- Walkie-talkie
- Sonar
- CADPAT was the first "digital" camouflage system, which was then used for the US MARPAT (1996)
- Canadarm
- Crash Position Indicator for aircraft

I almost forgot one of the MOST IMPORTANT inventions in Canada.

In 1908, Robertson developed the greatest screwdriver ever, commonly referred to by our American cousins as the 'square head'.

Yup, Robertson screwdriver is to this day a marvel of engineering and an essential requirement for anyone that needs to drive a screw with one hand in almost any environment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DGearyFTE

I almost forgot one of the MOST IMPORTANT inventions in Canada.

In 1908, Robertson developed the greatest screwdriver ever, commonly referred to by our American cousins as the 'square head'.

Yup, Robertson screwdriver is to this day a marvel of engineering and an essential requirement for anyone that needs to drive a screw with one hand in almost any environment.

---

Still not in general use in the US, ha ha, when I was working for a shelter company we had to use fasteners that used the Phillips and Slot screwdriver to make sure nobody down there got upset.

A book worth reading on Canada and US military history is "Whose War Is It?" by Jack Granatstein.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

Still not in general use in the US, ha ha, when I was working for a shelter company we had to use fasteners that used the Phillips and Slot screwdriver to make sure nobody down there got upset.

---

I recall when that deal when up for tender about 30 yrs ago, the Robertson screws were made in Milton Ontario, what is now the Marmon group of companies (owned by Buffet) purchased the facility and wanted too much royalties. They eventually lost that deal and subsequently the patent ran out which pretty much closed the plant down.

Well it's a new day and I got a good sleep last night so I'm ready to go - first off I originally made the comment that without American's aid England would have gone down in defeat - like it or not that statement is true - now some of you might not like the use of the word aid because England had to pay years later for the help but that doesn't have any bearing on the comment I made - if you are fighting someone and your running out of bullets and then ask someone for bullets knowing that you can't pay for them at that time or if ever and the guy gives you bullets with the hope that you will pay him back sometime in the future (like 60 years) - I call that aid - you call it what you want - and remember - South Korea is free today because of the US - Europe is free today because of the US - Israel is free today because of the US - Japan is free today because of the US - Eastern Europe is free today because of the US - for Pete's sake give credit where credit is due - next time you see an American - instead of trying to find fault - say thanks - and buy him a beer - Yuengling preferable - an American made beer -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DGearyFTE

I almost forgot one of the MOST IMPORTANT inventions in Canada.

In 1908, Robertson developed the greatest screwdriver ever, commonly referred to by our American cousins as the 'square head'.

Yup, Robertson screwdriver is to this day a marvel of engineering and an essential requirement for anyone that needs to drive a screw with one hand in almost any environment.

---

Great invention, seruously, that no one else use in the word! Must be a marketing issue....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

Well it's a new day and I got a good sleep last night so I'm ready to go - first off I originally made the comment that without American's aid England would have gone down in defeat - like it or not that statement is true - now some of you might not like the use of the word aid because England had to pay years later for the help but that doesn't have any bearing on the comment I made - if you are fighting someone and your running out of bullets and then ask someone for bullets knowing that you can't pay for them at that time or if ever and the guy gives you bullets with the hope that you will pay him back sometime in the future (like 60 years) - I call that aid - you call it what you want - and remember - South Korea is free today because of the US - Europe is free today because of the US - Israel is free today because of the US - Japan is free today because of the US - Eastern Europe is free today because of the US - for Pete's sake give credit where credit is due - next time you see an American - instead of trying to find fault - say thanks - and buy him a beer - Yuengling preferable - an American made beer -

---

Only if you say thanks to a Canadian and buy him a beer for inventing maple syrup, tim hortons, bacon, and apparently the robertson screw driver.

Watch out Joe!!!

Lol!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

Well it's a new day and I got a good sleep last night so I'm ready to go - first off I originally made the comment that without American's aid England would have gone down in defeat - like it or not that statement is true - now some of you might not like the use of the word aid because England had to pay years later for the help but that doesn't have any bearing on the comment I made - if you are fighting someone and your running out of bullets and then ask someone for bullets knowing that you can't pay for them at that time or if ever and the guy gives you bullets with the hope that you will pay him back sometime in the future (like 60 years) - I call that aid - you call it what you want - and remember - South Korea is free today because of the US - Europe is free today because of the US - Israel is free today because of the US - Japan is free today because of the US - Eastern Europe is free today because of the US - for Pete's sake give credit where credit is due - next time you see an American - instead of trying to find fault - say thanks - and buy him a beer - Yuengling preferable - an American made beer -

---

During time of war countries form alliances with other countries for the greater good....we hope. Canada also took part in your list of wars....we aided you. It may have been a very smart part but all in all you needed us as well . To think you did this alone is nonsense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yellow dog

During time of war countries form alliances with other countries for the greater good....we hope. Canada also took part in your list of wars....we aided you. It may have been a very smart part but all in all you needed us as well . To think you did this alone is nonsense.

---

IIRC,three Canadian war ships patrolled inner and outer New York harbor and RCAF CF-18's flew CAP missions over the eastern US until things started to settle down during 9-11 that was made special note of and well covered by US TV broadcasters.

JoePa - why would you post an opinion that insults an entire nation? Are you that needy for attention?
Any appreciation I previously had for your opinions has taken a major nose dive. Integrity vanished.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

Shades of grey G. :)
Also, don't over look the power of the media and Hollywood.

Some societies firmly believe the West is Satan or that their emperor is the descendant of the Sun goddess. Some societies grow up fed a steady diet of John Wayne and saving private Ryan.

---

You forgot the greatest work of fiction out of Hollywierd of all times, Argo!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

You know I actually brought a case of beer up with me the last time we had the BOQ get together - somehow you wasn't there - so we all drank it - but whenever we get together again I'll bring up another case of Yuengling - -

---

You call the watered down pony urine beer!
(Now if that don't get Joe going, nothing will!!!!!) :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roper

JoePa - why would you post an opinion that insults an entire nation? Are you that needy for attention?
Any appreciation I previously had for your opinions has taken a major nose dive. Integrity vanished.

---

What nation you talking about? -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

What nation you talking about? -

---

You don't even recognize us? Well then, stay on the other side of the river.

If Roper means Canada - where did I insult Canada in anything that I posted - come on man - give me a break - or are you that thin skinned that if I don't agree with you on a historical matter it hurts your feelings - well woup de due - I thought I was having a discussion with a group of men - did some ladies sneak in some how or did I somehow accidentally get switched over to an old ladies sewing circle forum on the internet - my computer has been acting up lately - and Fox - what the heck are you talking about anyway -

Hey Joe, I insulter your favourite beer (pretty good actually, gave it a try on your recommendation!) and I don't even get a shot back?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PaulR

Hey Joe, I insulter your favourite beer (pretty good actually, gave it a try on your recommendation!) and I don't even get a shot back?

---

I was busy trying to straighten Fox out - he might be spending too much time with his rabbits - as far as the beer goes - there are beer drinkers than there are beer drinkers - besides its Easter and you gotta be nice to everyone - actually you can't really appreciate beer unless you drink it from a barrel because the bottled stuff is pasteurized while the draft beer isn't -

JoePa : your original post said.
"Canada needs the U.S for protection".
"We depend on you for protection".
"Americans are around to save our 's."

Believe me - we don't need you to protect us. Canada will be quite fine without your protection.
When have you ever protected us? Invading our country in 1812? Sitting on your 's while Canadians sacrificed 1000's in WWII?
Do me a favor - protect someone else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roper

JoePa : your original post said.
"Canada needs the U.S for protection".
"We depend on you for protection".
"Americans are around to save our 's."

Believe me - we don't need you to protect us. Canada will be quite fine without your protection.
When have you ever protected us? Invading our country in 1812? Sitting on your 's while Canadians sacrificed 1000's in WWII?
Do me a favor - protect someone else.

---

Well Roper - let me tell you something - we're going to protect you if you like it or not - in fact because of your complaining we are going to protect you even more - so what you gonna do about it - in the mean time - back at the ranch

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

I was busy trying to straighten Fox out - he might be spending too much time with his rabbits - as far as the beer goes - there are beer drinkers than there are beer drinkers - besides its Easter and you gotta be nice to everyone - actually you can't really appreciate beer unless you drink it from a barrel because the bottled stuff is pasteurized while the draft beer isn't -

---

Troll... not worth having a discussion with you. Have at lads/ladies if you feel like wasting your time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

Well Roper - let me tell you something - we're going to protect you if you like it or not - in fact because of your complaining we are going to protect you even more - so what you gonna do about it - in the mean time - back at the ranch

---

My take: Typical -- your country right or wrong. In this case, not because the US wants to protect Canadians but because we are too close to be the home of anything you fear. Destroy what you fear = "protect" Canada. That's NOT protection. It's just forcing your beliefs on a sovereign nation.

JP....I would hope you would, and should, help protect any country that borders yours, including Mexico.:thumbup: You would not want any country who really hates you as a next door neighbors.

Let's see if we can put Atleast some of this to bed.

Germany had too many fronts.
germany extended themselves so much their supply was severely compromised. See "petrol" to fuel their war machine. They to were getting low on supplies Joe.
etc, etc.

So it's late in the 4th quarter, two Bulldogs had been slugging it out for 3 quarters, llitterly beating snot out of each other, and things are up in the air.

In comes the 3rd string quarterback, he's not that good (see your equipment), many will say not the best strategically (see your command). In fact he's very green and inexperienced to. But fresh legs (lots of factories....who btw aren't getting blown to bits like everyone else's), is the difference. He puts together a couple strong drives....and we win.

No American football fan will say he won the game, is the hero. How would they describe it? An important part yes, absolutely, but just a part of "team" win. We all of coarse are thankful, Churchill to. But what would you expect him to say?

oh, and Joe. Funny thing about D-Day.
The ONLY army to meet their objectives?
the Canadians.
*****

one last fact.
Cracking the Germans Enigma was quite likely the single most important thing.
The British did that.
heck your guys were so bad, that despite intercepting lots about Pearl Harbor, you dropped the ball.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

Well Roper - let me tell you something - we're going to protect you if you like it or not - in fact because of your complaining we are going to protect you even more - so what you gonna do about it - in the mean time - back at the ranch

---

Joe are you really talking on behalf of all the US?? My wife is American and she'd shake her head in disgrace if I read this BS to her. I was just joking around earlier, but please get off your high horse. It's become a laughing matter and we're not laughing with you. There's no better way to piss off a Canadian than to come on here and talk like your almighty God. We're all no better than the other so please stop trying to be our unwanted saviour. You're talking like you're some 5 star general that owns the US and gets to decide what the policies are. Lol. Just go fishing and shut those lips please. It's definitely getting annoying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

Let's see if we can put Atleast some of this to bed.

Germany had too many fronts.
germany extended themselves so much their supply was severely compromised. See "petrol" to fuel their war machine. They to were getting low on supplies Joe.
etc, etc.

So it's late in the 4th quarter, two Bulldogs had been slugging it out for 3 quarters, llitterly beating snot out of each other, and things are up in the air.

In comes the 3rd string quarterback, he's not that good (see your equipment), many will say not the best strategically (see your command). In fact he's very green and inexperienced to. But fresh legs (lots of factories....who btw aren't getting blown to bits like everyone else's), is the difference. He puts together a couple strong drives....and we win.

No American football fan will say he won the game, is the hero. How would they describe it? An important part yes, absolutely, but just a part of "team" win. We all of coarse are thankful, Churchill to. But what would you expect him to say?

oh, and Joe. Funny thing about D-Day.
The ONLY army to meet their objectives?
the Canadians.
*****

one last fact.
Cracking the Germans Enigma was quite likely the single most important thing.
The British did that.
heck your guys were so bad, that despite intercepting lots about Pearl Harbor, you dropped the ball.

---

That about sums it up! Except they went on to make one Hollywood movie after another about how they save the world in WWII. If you say it enough times to yourself it becomes a Truth.

Yes JBen and the main reason my entire family including my wife family immigrated to Canada from the Netherlands after the war. Numerous times while visiting the Netherlands the older generation after hearing me speak English will ask if I am from Canada. They get so excited about the Canadian soldiers that saved them from the Nazi's . They have a deep admiration and respect for Canada.

/thumbs-up

My family (my mothers side, dad was Irish the wrong color :)) while quite removed from Winston, are direct descendants. Lots of my uncles came home, all bore scars, missing parts, and 1 still carried shrapnel inside him. Didn't happen often, but sometimes the rye would flow generously and they'd talk. Every now and then the odd whisper about my grandfathers involvement (on some level) on Enigma.

Joe what follows is no "knock", as I've stated earlier, I anyways think you make some very good points about a few things.
It's a crying shame, that only 70 years later, so much is forgotten, or that Hollywood has distorted things so much.

Food for thought
or
fuel on the fire.

Picture a world where the US did in fact "mind its own business". And that includes off shore Canada, to the east where we have had so many problems with fish stocks alone, (forget our off shore oil)....The Artic where......and the NW passage where.

And we have only just now "upgraded" from the very trust worthy, field tested Lee Enfield that served soooooooo many, so well, back when.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/wo...ary-protection

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

Ya sure - but when the time comes that your country needs to be protected you'll be glad that the Americans are around to save your - you basically depend on us now for protection otherwise you would have to spend billions to provide that same protection by yourself - there isn't a country on this earth that has spend more treasure and blood helping other countries when they were in trouble - maybe your too young to even know about this fact - I suggest you take some time away from your video games and study up on history

---

You forget my old mucker, the post WW2 the political environment in the USA. The government, and the people at the time were so scared of the USSR , that you made promises to supply and equip Canada with state of the art Aircraft, ships, and need our help to create and run the DEW LINE. Just to put the icing on the cake, Canada had to sign agreements to NEVER design and build it's own Aircraft, and that we could NEVER buy non US Aircraft. You owe us a lot of planes by the way. There is also the fact that the military and government planners of the time saw Canada and the North as the best place to stop Nuclear ladden bombers. Their plan was to use Canada as a buffer between them and the USSR, allowing them to shoot down enemy bombers over Canada so that the US would not be POISONED by the nuclear bombs from downed aircraft. So since the start the US has only viewed Canada as a safety buffer, has not kept it's promises to supply equipment, has not been held to their promises by liberal government in Canada.

You keep telling us you have the "BEST" military in the world, and that they can take on every military in the world and win. Well looks like you may soon get the chance to prove it. Your government is so locked in politics and back stabbing individual attacks, that if Mexico invaded AZ, CA, and NM, they would spend the next six years arguing over if it was an invasion or just more "UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS".

I hope you will be too OLD to see it, but the Western world will more likely rot from the inside out then be destroyed by a invader. That is not to say that someone will not walk in and pick up the pieces....Maybe your kids had better start learning ARABIC now.. I know burka really cut down on skin cancer rates and wrinkles caused by sun exposure.

Some knowledgeable people have said, that within 5 generations every family will have some Chinese in their bloodline. All China has to do is open the gates.

So many of you guys are jumping all over the place - I never degraded what Canada, England or any other country did during WWII - all I said was that it was the US's industrial might that turned the tide of the war - why is it so hard to accept that - sure the Canadians, the English, the French and many others fought hard but every history book I ever read gave a lot of credit to the material furnished by the US - you can fight as hard as you can but without the materials of war your chances of winning are pretty low -

Now as far as the US protecting Canada - you got to be honest - there are many countries throughout the world that depend on the US for protection - that's just the way it is - and as a result these countries do not need to spend as much money on their own defense - what chance would these countries have against a power like Russia or China - none - when the Russia's start taking Canada's artic land are you going to fight them and defeat them - you know darn well that you'll be looking to your southern neighbor for help -

I stand behind everything that I have said - it wasn't intended to annoy anyone - just wanted to state some facts that's all - now I'm done with this post but just want to end with this - you can go to bed at night and sleep soundly because you know that the US's nuclear shield is also covering and protecting your part of the world - if the US ceased to exist than you better build your own - then you'll realize how nice it was to depend on the US for that protection - Amen

Quote:

---

I hope you will be too OLD to see it, but the Western world will more likely rot from the inside out then be destroyed by a invader

---

Likely true, good post all through, but that's the pertinent piece. Just look around, and I may ruffle a couple feathers with this comment but its true none the less. I've said for years, the US is a powder keg on a slow burn. The fuse is lit here as well, its just a longer a fuse. In the US its very obvious now, becoming a little more obvious in Canada. We are so busy fighting each other...

L vs R, R v L, very polarized.

US vs them indeed.
Except internally

' You want me on that wall, you need me on that wall'. AFGM

One more comment.

Quote:

---

Now as far as the US protecting Canada - you got to be honest - there are many countries throughout the world that depend on the US for protection - that's just the way it is

---

How long do you think the US would last alone vs the USSR and China?
Then (the cold war) or now. Honesltly Joe if we go back to shortly after the war, had you and Russia slugged it out then and there.
Im thinking they would have handed you your breakfast. Just as they did Napolean and Hitler

And there are many who will argue (perhaps rightly Im not sure) that needed protection you speak of (I agree), well its because you have done much to destabilize (see the mid east) to begin with.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

The egg , why, because reptiles lay eggs, and chickens came from reptiles. Unless you are a creationist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

Now as far as the US protecting Canada - you got to be honest - there are many countries throughout the world that depend on the US for protection - that's just the way it is - and as a result these countries do not need to spend as much money on their own defense - what chance would these countries have against a power like Russia or China - none - when the Russia's start taking Canada's artic land are you going to fight them and defeat them - you know darn well that you'll be looking to your southern neighbor for help -

you can go to bed at night and sleep soundly because you know that the US's nuclear shield is also covering and protecting your part of the world - if the US ceased to exist than you better build your own - then you'll realize how nice it was to depend on the US for that protection - Amen

---

Well,I have to hand it to you,Joe,when you're right,you're really right. Despite all the bluster from some folks here,without US military protection,it would take a foreign power less than 24hrs. to take over Canada completely. Our current politcal regime wouldn't know whether their arses were punched or bored and as long as nobody messed with Tim Horton's,The Legion or hockey rinks,nobody would barely notice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 73hunter

Navy supply ships that break down and need to be towed home, 50 year old Sea Kings whose replacement program has been bumbled for 20 years, the national shipbuilding strategy that can't get off the ground...the list goes on, and is a disservice to those who serve us

---

Poorly Maintained, and underfunded. Sounds just like Every nation in the world right now, as it was before the First World War, The Second World War.

I had a girlfriend I was living with that fought me tooth and nail everytime I talked about getting a vehicle, said there was no need and it was too expensive to have one. We lived across the parking lot from the grocery store, and she could ride the bus or get a taxi to and from any where we needed to go, and she did not have a license to drive any ways. What does that have to do with supply ships, and sea kings? Well since the government never has to rely on them for anything, they don't see the need. Let one political leader die, or one of his friends or relatives die because a sea king, or some thing broke down, and there will be a new models flying off the show room floor the next day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

Now as far as the US protecting Canada - you got to be honest - there are many countries throughout the world that depend on the US for protection - that's just the way it is - and as a result these countries do not need to spend as much money on their own defense - what chance would these countries have against a power like Russia or China - none - when the Russia's start taking Canada's artic land are you going to fight them and defeat them - you know darn well that you'll be looking to your southern neighbor for help -

I stand behind everything that I have said - it wasn't intended to annoy anyone - just wanted to state some facts that's all - now I'm done with this post but just want to end with this - you can go to bed at night and sleep soundly because you know that the US's nuclear shield is also covering and protecting your part of the world - if the US ceased to exist than you better build your own - then you'll realize how nice it was to depend on the US for that protection - Amen

---

Let's be clear about 2 things:

1) Russia is invading the artic, and the US is doing NOTHING about it. They've attempted to claim the north pole (and all its mineral reserves) several times, even though it sits on the Canadian continental shelf. Canadian planes have had to scramble to respond to Russian surveillance planes approaching Canadian land. US has not helped with this situtation (at least I've not ever heard/read anything).

2) Yes, we rely on the US for general protection, but don't misconstrude, the main purpose is to have a buffer between Russia and mainland USA. The US has to protect us to protect themselves. If the US didn't have a purpose here, they wouldn't be defending us. Don't believe me? How many countries are fiascos and people are dying, yet the US doesn't help them - say for instance Zimbabwe. If the US wasn't here to help, we'd pick up the tab and figure it out ourselves. We wouldn't sit here like cowards waiting for someone to invade. The current situation is what it is, but if the circumstances were different, then Canada would step up and do what it needs to do to protect our freedom.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoePa

So many of you guys are jumping all over the place - I never degraded what Canada, England or any other country did during WWII - all I said was that it was the US's industrial might that turned the tide of the war - why is it so hard to accept that - sure the Canadians, the English, the French and many others fought hard but every history book I ever read gave a lot of credit to the material furnished by the US - you can fight as hard as you can but without the materials of war your chances of winning are pretty low -

Now as far as the US protecting Canada - you got to be honest - there are many countries throughout the world that depend on the US for protection - that's just the way it is - and as a result these countries do not need to spend as much money on their own defense - what chance would these countries have against a power like Russia or China - none - when the Russia's start taking Canada's artic land are you going to fight them and defeat them - you know darn well that you'll be looking to your southern neighbor for help -

I stand behind everything that I have said - it wasn't intended to annoy anyone - just wanted to state some facts that's all - now I'm done with this post but just want to end with this - you can go to bed at night and sleep soundly because you know that the US's nuclear shield is also covering and protecting your part of the world - if the US ceased to exist than you better build your own - then you'll realize how nice it was to depend on the US for that protection - Amen

---

Yes you have drank the koo-aid and have read all the propaganda U.S history war material. All country's are guilty of that and don't think the U.S is no different.

Highly unlikely Mark that we would, or even could pick up the tab.
We simply don't have the manpower, gdp, tax base. In just a generation the US has built an entire oil industry in Alaska.

This is bit long, and somewhat convoluted, but in some ways illuminates in part what is or isn't occurring up there.
We don't even want to pay the tab to replace flying dinosaurs (CF-18s) with state of the art, long range air to surface and intercept abilities.

Let alone ice breakers and so very much more

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo6/...ord-02-eng.asp

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkB

We wouldn't sit here like cowards waiting for someone to invade. The current situation is what it is, but if the circumstances were different, then Canada would step up and do what it needs to do to protect our freedom.

---

With the current pacifistic,gutless cowardly regime in Ottawa,there's no way in h**l they'd lift a finger to protect us. The Liberals would want to sit down and "talk to the poor deprived little dears" to see if they could just give them a hug and send them on their way. Our government is more interested in oppressing their own people with silly "gun control" and pie-in-the-sky,politically correct socialism rather than,heaven forbid,grow a pair and defend anything.

[QUOTE=JBen;965692]We don't even want to pay the tab to replace flying dinosaurs (CF-18s) with state of the art, long range air to surface and intercept abilities.
[QUOTE/]

Another problem there is even if the funds are approved the only planes we can buy because of an agreement are American, and they have stopped all design and manufacturing of the F22, and pulled out of the NATO Developed F35 project. The F35 is a lame duck, because an Aircraft that is designed to fly and work in the heat of turkey, will not be well suited for flying and working out of Northern Canadian bases in the -40 to -50° C weather.

[QUOTE=Snowwalker;965695]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

We don't even want to pay the tab to replace flying dinosaurs (CF-18s) with state of the art, long range air to surface and intercept abilities.
[QUOTE/]

Another problem there is even if the funds are approved the only planes we can buy because of an agreement are American, and they have stopped all design and manufacturing of the F22, and pulled out of the NATO Developed F35 project. The F35 is a lame duck, because an Aircraft that is designed to fly and work in the heat of turkey, will not be well suited for flying and working out of Northern Canadian bases in the -40 to -50° C weather.

---

Maybe,we should order Russian MiGS. That would suit the Liberal crowd quite nicely,then,wouldn't it?

Not to hijack this thread but, with reference to the "Enigma Machine" the code was actually broken by "Poles" ,

German military messages enciphered on the Enigma machine were first broken by the Polish Cipher Bureau, beginning in December 1932. This success was a result of efforts by three Polish cryptologists, Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Różycki and Henryk Zygalski, working for Polish military intelligence. Rejewski reverse-engineered the device, using theoretical mathematics and material supplied by French military intelligence. Subsequently the three mathematicians designed mechanical devices for breaking Enigma ciphers, including the cryptologic bomb. From 1938 onwards, additional complexity was repeatedly added to the Enigma machines, making decryption more difficult and requiring further equipment and personnel—more than the Poles could readily produce.
On 26 and 27 July 1939,^[3] in Pyry near Warsaw, the Poles initiated French and British military intelligence representatives into their Enigma-decryption techniques and equipment, including Zygalski sheets and the cryptologic bomb, and promised each delegation a Polish-reconstructed Enigma. The demonstration represented a vital basis for the later British continuation and effort.^[4] During the war, British cryptologists decrypted a vast number of messages enciphered on Enigma. The intelligence gleaned from this source, codenamed "Ultra" by the British, was a substantial aid to the Allied war effort.<sup>[

There are many references to this fact in the books that I have about WW II.</sup>

Neat tidbit about the poles Jaycee.
Recall reading something about the war time aspect that theorized it shortened the war by (want to say) 2 years, and may have saved tens of thousands of lives.

There was no 'may' about it. Entire convoys were rerouted to bypass sub wolfpacks and I've always viewed winning the battle of the Atlantic the start of Germanys defeat.

[QUOTE=trimmer21;965741]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Maybe,we should order Russian MiGS. That would suit the Liberal crowd quite nicely,then,wouldn't it?

---

Migs are good Aircraft, they are equal and at least equal enough to any main stream combat Aircraft flown by NATO, AND the Americans.

Over Korea, and Viet Nam they counted for a lot of dead US airmen when seated by a good pilot. Good Russian and Canadian pilots have taken the strut out of a few American flyers over the years.

[QUOTE=Snowwalker;965767]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trimmer21

Migs are good Aircraft, they are equal and at least equal enough to any main stream combat Aircraft flown by NATO, AND the Americans.

Over Korea, and Viet Nam they counted for a lot of dead US airmen when seated by a good pilot. Good Russian and Canadian pilots have taken the strut out of a few American flyers over the years.

---

Other alternative that would fit our Air Force well are the French Mirage and Saab,esentially,anything with dual burners,that's fast,agile and can carry a devastating payload. Boeing and Northrup Grumann aren't the only game in town.

[QUOTE=trimmer21;965792]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Other alternative that would fit our Air Force well are the French Mirage and Saab,esentially,anything with dual burners,that's fast,agile and can carry a devastating payload. Boeing and Northrup Grumann aren't the only game in town.

---

Nice to have to the dealer next door and not across the ocean if trouble starts. Be BEST to have the factory in the backyard, but I can't see our government ripping up the agreement and telling the US to bite a big one.

[QUOTE=Snowwalker;965828]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trimmer21

Nice to have to the dealer next door and not across the ocean if trouble starts. Be BEST to have the factory in the backyard, but I can't see our government ripping up the agreement and telling the US to bite a big one.

---

You're probably right,but,you never know,agreements are cancelled all the time,right?