I saw today on an OMNRF web site that they are allowing 50 bears per person in Hearst area. Other wmu's are 5 to 10 or more bears. As long as they pay the $48.50 for each seal.
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I saw today on an OMNRF web site that they are allowing 50 bears per person in Hearst area. Other wmu's are 5 to 10 or more bears. As long as they pay the $48.50 for each seal.
Wow . maybe a typing mistake ...50 bears that's crazy.
50 bears for the whole wmu not per person. Only allowed on additional bear seal.
Is there a link for this? I can't find it
Second game seals for black bear hunting 2016Quote:
Originally Posted by B Wilson
Second game seals for use during the 2016 black bear hunting seasons (spring and fall) go on sale to Ontario residents at participating ServiceOntario centres starting April 15. Cost is $48.43
Wildlife
management
unitNumber of
second game
seals available
on April 15District 01C 10 Sioux Lookout 02 6 Red Lake 06 5 Kenora 07A 3 Kenora 07B 5 Kenora 11B 12 Thunder Bay 13 50 Thunder Bay 14 5 Nipigon 15B 10 Thunder Bay 16A 10 Sioux Lookout 16B 10 Sioux Lookout 16C 10 Thunder Bay 17 10 Nipigon 18A 10 Nipigon 18B 10 Nipigon 19 5 Nipigon 21A 10 Nipigon 24 50 Hearst 26 75 Cochrane 27 20 Cochrane 37 13 Sault Ste. Marie 38 25 Sudbury 43B 15 Sudbury 47 30 Parry Sound
Each hunter can only get 2 seals and only in certain areas.
That says number of 2nd seals available in the wmu. Not the number available per person.
Some of those seem very arbitrary. 3? 3 extra seals available? lol
Exactly! How can the OMNRF arrive at these numbers when they can't (or won't) even tell us the total Black Bear population of the province? It sure sounds like a big crock of shyte to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
Are you just trolling ???? I find it hard to believe you couldn't figure that site out !Quote:
Originally Posted by chris lavoie
rick iles, 2399 posts tells me you have nothing better to do but post on the net!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
I was looking at a friends cell phone and couldn't get it all at once. Now I know. I'm a little IGNORANT when it comes to cell phone technology.
Ya, you've got to hate those people who post SHOCKING threads about nothing lol.
Like I've always said if you live in a glass house, don't take a dump on the neighbor's lawn. :p
City folk!!!
Hey now, that's hitting below the belt :moose:
Well, your response clears that up for me !!Quote:
Originally Posted by chris lavoie
[QUOTE=rick_iles;969489]Well, your response clears that up for me !![/
I couldn't find the link once I got home. So I knew someone here would clarify.
Hi Chris,
thanks for the info. Don't pay attention to those guys that have nothing better to do except bash fellow hunters.
NOW COMES A CHALLANGE!
Part A: Can anyone find out how many EXTRA tags were available LAST YEAR (2015) in each unit or totally across the province.
Part B: And this is where the rubber hits the road! How many of those EXTRA tags were actually purchased and how many of those were actually PUT ON A BEAR!
I think the numbers will SHOCK us ALL!
I'll say it loud and clear--I don't believe in extra tags for bears anywhere in the province. By the MNR's own admission, they do not have a handle on the actual population of bears in the province. We've all seen it pegged at anywhere between 80 and 110 thousand animals. I'd sure like to know what these figures are actually based on, probably someone's best guess.
Back when there was a spring and fall hunt one outfitter in Sudbury was taking up to 110 bears per year. That was non-res hunters only and now we have a lot more residents involved in the hunt. The first thing that become noticeable was the bears taken were getting smaller and smaller. That's a sure sign the good breeders were disappearing. The big males were being shot off.
Until serious money is spent on getting a handle on the actual population we're cutting our own throats by pushing for extra tags to take bears that just might not be there.
Back in the 70's there were unlimited tags here. In the early to mid nineties you could buy second tags, even non residents. So not shocking at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugger
Back in the 70's very few residents would ever be caught hunting a bear mainly because most bears hung around the landfills that every town had. And back in the 70's everyone was getting a moose tag so there was no need to hunt a bear which, at best was considered vermin by residents.
Even the non-resident hunt hadn't yet taken off. Around this area you could count the number of licenced outfitters on one hand now there's 10 times that number.
Your right, there were few outfitters in the seventies. 1981 bear hunting became popular here. 1988 there were many outfitters, reason for bear management areas in 1989. Bear hunting was still booming into the late nineties. Here at least.
In the late 90's the U.S. dollar was somewhere around $1.50 to our cdn dollar so that's a big part of why the non-res hunt was attractive and lots of guys got into outfitting. My concern is many of these characters are still operating today and are more concerned about making a buck in the present and not worrying about the future. If the hunt goes bust they've made their money. Add to that the number of residents who are now taking part in the bear hunt. There's so little science available about bear populations that I can't see taking a chance on extra tags being handed out.
There are very few outfitters here conducting a spring hunt this year.
Chris, you are so proud of living UP NORTH. Try Pine Point, Hay River, Fort Smith, Yellow knife, Uranium City, Eldorado, inuvik, Car Cross.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris lavoie
I bet you had to look at Google maps to figure out where most of those places are. I don't, having lived or spent time in everyone of them.
Where I grew up they have a word for people like you,..."WANT-A-BE".
I DISAGREE! Many other provinces have a 2 bear tag system. And most of those provinces have reputations for BIG BEARS. An outfitter can and WILL charge an extra fee for an extra bear and of course the MNR will profit also. Most hunters are happy just taking one animal and then there is the skill factor. I know lots of guys that buy multiple tags for deer down here in our unit. Most guys that get a deer are often just lucky. You could give some of them 20 tags and they'd be eating 19 of those tags. As an outfitter you make the rules for your BMA and you determine what gets shot by the non residents.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
The overall complaint agreed upon BY ALL is we have too many bears. Any extra tags can be added or withdrawn by the MNR in very short order. I don't think the demand will be that great for extra tags. so I sure hope someone can get us this information.
A few years ago I talked to someone in the MNR and they told me out of 150 tags available at that time only 15 or so were actually bought and like 3 bears (province wide) were shot. DUH???
I have not shot a bear since 2009 I lost a monster in 2011. Shyte happens as they say. I have fed, nurtured, fattened up, video'd probably over 100. I will not tag a bear unless it's a target bear for me. BUT It sure would be nice to take a smaller one just to chew on!
can someone more connected or with better skills get these numbers.
NOW COMES A CHALLANGE!
Part A: Can anyone find out how many EXTRA tags were available LAST YEAR (2015) in each unit or totally across the province.
Part B: And this is where the rubber hits the road! How many of those EXTRA tags were actually purchased and how many of those were actually PUT ON A BEAR!
I think the numbers will SHOCK us ALL!
That's true that other jurisdictions have extra tags but they don't have the hunters either that Ontario has. That's the big difference. Proof is that those other provinces are getting bigger bears than what we are.
They don't have better management than us, just less pressure.
Well one thing we do know - currently we have too many bears. Many, many northerners have a shoot and shut-up policy when it comes to bears. I know a group of deer hunters - all northern locals that one year shot 7 bears during their deer hunt. Just because they seen 'em. They left them all. They hate 'em! So if in fact we have too many why all the indecision on the ministry when granting 2nd tags. I don't think the demand for 2nd tags is all that great. Non residents who hunt with outfitters usually abide by the wishes of the outfitter. And most residents probably just don't give a shyte. There are some of us who might really enjoy a second tag. The MNR should grant 2nd tags across the board to all units on a very limited basis and actually get some solid numbers in stead of guessing at what happens - like they currently do.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
again all I want is an answer to my question.
Can anyone find out how many EXTRA tags were available LAST YEAR (2015) in each unit or totally across the province.
Part B: And this is where the rubber hits the road! How many of those EXTRA tags were actually purchased and how many of those were actually PUT ON A HUNTERS 2nd BEAR!
I can't agree with this observation at all. I want proof and that's not asking too much. Do we have too many bears or too many people?Quote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
I have enough history with L&F/MNR to remember most of the field staff (lands, timber, fire, even garage personnel) assigned to nuisance bear control for much of the summer and this was back in the early 70's. We have no more bears now than what we had back then. What we do have is a much more expanded urban area where bears are being drawn in subdivisions. There are no more dumps to keep them away.
And we do have change where bears are migrating southward, essentially returning to old stomping grounds that they once inhabited. I'm not quite sure of the exact cause of this phenomenon but I suspect logging, urban development and even climate patterns.
So why two tags? To take the pressure off the government of the day. Just look at where the extra tags were handed out--in the areas where bears had started to re-establish themselves. North Bay, Sudbury, Blind River, the Soo--nada!
Sawbill you and I would drink quite a few beers before one of us would win this one! Of course you'd buy!
Even if I and my hunting partners had 2 tags we would in all probability only shoot a few bears.
And if we had 2 or 3 meaters down for our group of 8 them that would probably be all we'd take. not 8 for 8 tags.
Some for meat and then wait for a monster.
Odds are we'd still be waiting.
BUT I would give the MNR coffers double the $. and isn't this what it's all about!
I actually have the 2015 table of second bear seals. Not sure if I can attach a pdf here tho
Attachment 32708
Try this.
Sktr, I'll concede if you buy.
I do agree that most people who get extra tags don't use them and if they did it probably wouldn't make much difference in the overall harvest for that year. It wouldn't hurt the population one bit.
If you go back to the time when additional licences for bears were eliminated completely a big part of the reason given was that the government wanted to project the image of black bear as being a respectable game animal. So money wasn't the issue back then. It is now but the sale of a few more tags sure won't bail them out of the financial hole they're in now.
If bears were as prolific as deer then I'd be for more tags but around here at least the population is at best, stable. Its easy to manage a stable population but just as easy to upset it. I'm for leaving well enough alone.
BIG THANK YOU - Now just need to find out from MNR how many they actually sold and also how many were actually placed on a bear as a secondary tag. If the hunter only used this extra tag and not his first then WTF??? it's a wash!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dude Bro
Total Game Seals:Northwest Region – 181; Northeast Region – 198; Southern Region – 30. Ontario
total - 409
Wildlife Management Units Offering Resident Black Bear Second Game Seals WMU Number of Second Game Seals Available District Region 1C 10 Sioux Lookout Northwest 2 6 Red Lake Northwest 6 5 Kenora Northwest 7A 3 Kenora Northwest 7B 5 Kenora Northwest 11B 12 Thunder Bay Northwest 13 37 Thunder Bay Northwest 14 5 Nipigon Northwest 15B 10 Thunder Bay Northwest 16A 10 Sioux Lookout Northwest 16B 10 Sioux Lookout Northwest 16C 10 Thunder Bay Northwest 17 10 Nipigon Northwest 18A 10 Nipigon Northwest 18B 10 Nipigon Northwest 19 5 Nipigon Northwest 21A 10 Nipigon Northwest 24 50 Hearst Northeast 26 75 Cochrane Northeast 27 20 Cochrane Northeast 37 13 Sault Ste. Marie Northeast 38 25 Sudbury Northeast 43B 15 Sudbury Northeast 47 30 Parry Sound Southern
We're allowed two tags in N. B.,I buy the extra tag but hardly ever use it. I only hunt when the meat is getting low. I know most of the locals only shoot 1 bear.
I know in N. B. They Only want 3,500 Bears shot/ year,but will sell up to 5,000 tags. In the fall, you can buy a second tag until they reach their cut off point. 85% on the Bears are killed by non residence and I believe Ontario is similar.
You don't have to worry about the non-residents shooting all the bears, some area outfitters have been told by the MNR how many hunters they can book for the bear hunt, according to the MNR bear population is down.
Its funny you mentioned that. It was about 10 or 15 years ago when MNR was considering putting quotas on outfitters in Sudbury and Chapleau districts. That shows a concern about bear populations that far back on only lends to my argument about additional tags.
I had similar thoughts. Sudbury has WMUs 38, 39, 41 and 42 with the borders either intersecting within city limits or or very close to the city. We had an extraordinary year in 2015 for nuisance bears. NO extra tags there? Doesn't make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
43 b is Manitoulin Island, where bears have been historically non-existent. Now they get 15 surplus tags?
im not sure off hand what WMUs surround Timmins, north bay and the sault, but I don't see many surplus tags around there either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gowbushkon
I think the MNRF bear biologists have been dipping into Justin Trudeau's glaucoma medication...
Just announced on tonights 6:00PM news that there will be a quota on bears for outfitters.
The outfitter who was interviewed says he was just now advised of this change and suspects there are many outfitters that yet have no idea about this. Most of these guys would have filled their bookings by now.
This is absurd public relations. MNR has their heads so far up their butts and deserve to be soundly criticized.
Some didnt even get told about the spring hunt being back on!
Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk
The demand for 2nd tags by residents hunters just does not seem to be that large. BUT there are some die-hard, dedicated guys that just might spend a few more days afield if there was 2nd tags available for all units. I have been hunting bears both spring and fall since I started back in the late 80's. I can tell everyone far and wide that the bear population is up. So why is the MNR puzzy footin around on this issue. Most of the areas where 2nd tags are currently issued are not where a majority of the guys hunt. I cannot fully understand, not today, not yesterday, and not tomorrow - Why the MNR just doesn't issue extra tags to all units and actually have some hard data in the end to digest and analyze. Without hard facts and data everything else is guessing and dreaming.
I would suggest and fully support 2nd tags to residents only in all units.
Bad news for the outfitters! It's pretty hard to run a business with a muzzle on. The outfitter should be the most knowledgable person in his/her BMA. Overharvesting will only hurt themselves - they should know better and they do! This resource is being micro-managed up the wazzoo!
Is the quota based on square kilometresQuote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
But they keep telling us we have sustainable numbers????
Why then are we sticking it to outfitters? Hummmm......
I need more proof that this is the case.
I see. A quota so we don't have a free for all.
I can support management and as I have stated in the past, bear management should be WMU specific like any big game animal. Tags given out in Sudbury should not match tags or hunts in Kingston.
Now the reasonable complaint should be, how they justify there numbers to determine the tags given to outfitters AND residents in a given WMU. its not a quota.
Quotas are based on bear density per sq km. Multiply that by the number of sq km in a specific BMA and you get a quota.
In 2009 they announced there were going to be changes. They are going to add all the form 33's for an outfitter for the past 3 years. Then average out the numbers to work out how many he will get.
Many outfitters already have been called that there forms are ready for this year.
Unfortunately, the outfitter in the clip, was put on quota for some reason or another.
Laura from NOTO, knows nothing about this. She has some meetings next week with the OMNR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
So the poor guy with only a couple hundred square kilometres of BMA his history
They threw out the 1 per 50 a few years back.
I have paper work that states that the only reason they chose the 1 per 50 was because they didn't do their studies in any other directions. They ran out of money for other studies and just said 1 per 50.
For a guy who recently purchased his outfitting business, he will automatically be put on a quota. In 1988, when they doled out BMA's, there was MANY MANY outfitters. So they ended up with areas too small for a proper bear hunt.
The guy should still have a hunt its just that he won't be allowed to hunt an infinite number of bears based on the number of clientele he can draw in. I can name a few outfitters across the province who operated in this fashion, basically high graded then dumped their BMA when it was cleaned out.
So, quotas can be a good thing or bad but at this point in time MNR has absolutely no valid data to back up their assessments.
I don't understand the quota business at all. You outfitters that have BMA's and outfit non-resident outfitters have quotas by the sounds of it but, if someone wants to guide residents, they don't need a BMA and don't have quotas. Seems a little unfair to me!!
I suspect quotas and other newly introduced rules and restrictions are more politically motivated than are actually management motivated.
Sounds like a bit of discrimination to me by putting quotas on outfitters who cater to non-residents and not on outfitters who cater to residents.
Maybe now those outfitters can entice us resident hunters with some good deals...Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
Unfortunately it costs as much to bait for residents as it does for non-res hunters. A good part of an outfitters profit comes from the exchange rate so deals for residents probably are not forthcoming.
I have never had a resident hunter at my place. Not because I don't want them or because their money is CAD. But I always figured, why would they come here bear hunting. There are bears everywhere in Ontario.
Saves a lot of paper work having a resident client, no form 33's. They fill out the questionaire
themselves. They can hunt anywhere in this district outside my BMA ect. If I was a jerk, hunt everyone elses BMA!!!
Yes sounds counter productive, will have to take twice as many to make up loss. But bear outfitting is fun.
But in the end its about controlling and managing the population of bears. Something the OMNR possibly will miss the mark on!!!
100% correct SawbillQuote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
Why do I need to give a resident a deal when it costs me the same as baiting for Americans?
What do you think a good deal should be?Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
unfortunately we have to do what the MNR tell us to doQuote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
This was a real shock to me. I'm pretty sure non residence kill around 85% of the Bears and the MNR wants to limit the amount of Bears they take, 1 bear for 50km. Is stupid. I can't see the outfitters surviving.
WELL! We should have all seen this coming. The MNR is bracing for a huge drop in moose tags and a lot of the deer herds are suffering. The only thing in abundance is the predators. They are just jumping on the wagon that has the highest population.. can we all say "extortion " . They have a limited idea of populations/densities and now they're going to take a stab at trying to manage it. PITIFULL !
If I was an outfitter with limited tags I would try to figure out how to only harvest monster bears. Then sell these hunts for $400 and attach a trophy fee of $3000 to $5,000. There's a lot of non-resident guys that have been on multiple bear hunts and taken lots of bears and would love to have a chance at a 450 LB + bear. This is like a game with the MNR as long as you know the rules then you'll need to adjust accordingly or get out of the game. A guy coming up on a $400 hunt (and truly just wants a monster or nothing) will be happy going home with nothing if he didn't get stung too bad and would probably be a repeat customer IF you can show him the bears are there.
Outfitters and bear hunters in general have all been using the same techniques that we all see prevalent out there right now. Over the last 30 yrs I've been chasin those darn bears I try to read and learn as much as I can. It seems to be the same regurgitation of techniques _ over and over and over. BUT it all works! so why would anyone from outfitters to resident hunters look any further.
Everyone gets bears and everyone has had visits from older, smarter trophy bears but getting them is a real trick or a bucket full of horseshoes LUCK... I know there are some guys with better luck on these monsters but their lips are tighter then a ducks azz.
So if an outfitter can pull this off then he would still get the same revenue while catering to a smaller crowd. Also if the outfitter in the next BMU has small quotas that would be a good thing for him too because more of those bears would get to trophy size.
So in closing ... give out fewer bears but give out trophy bears - and of course CHARGE FOR IT!
It is, but if it brings more money to those northern towns....Why not.... And I believe most outfitters live (or were used to...) from US hunters.Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
Quote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
Lets be more realistic now. Will you do all that work and put all that effort for $400? I am sure you know what it costs to bait bears. now if you tell me, you will be charging $1000 pre-bait, and $2000 trophy fee, this will compare to the western hunt where they have quota on bears.
btw been having trophy fees on my hunt for the last five years
Pat, check your pm's and get back to me.
You don't....It's your business, your prices... you do what you want...Quote:
Originally Posted by skull
let me tell you a little story, maybe it will help you see where my thoughts were coming from and this is in no way telling you or anyone what to do, this is coming from me and my experience...
I got laid off years ago as a mechanic but I still needed to work to make money.... I was lucky enough to still be able to use the shop to do repairs. I remember doing a brake job one day for someone really cheap. The shop owner (my former boss) asked me how much money I was making on the job. It wasn't much, I think $40... He told me I was crazy for doing it for that price, he would never have taken the job. I looked at it as, it was $40 more in my pocket than I had yesterday....Anyway......................
it's your business, you do what you need/want to do. I hope it works out well for you and the other outfitters...
I understand where you're coming from with the brake job analogy. Outfitting is a business with an inventory but one bear is worth way more than $400 and once shot, that bear is gone from your inventory forever. Sure, some guys are doing it because they do love the outfitting but to most it is their livelihood.
Chris check your p.m.
I would think most veteran bear guides and their camps are in it more for the fun of bear hunting, rather than the dollar. Yes the money is important, but when bear's in their blood, they will do what ever they have to legally to have a fun time outfitting resident or non resident bear hu8nters.
Back in the 70's we sold hunts for about $350.00. If the OMNRF wants us to regress back in time, why not......
Back in the 70's you could buy a new pickup truck for just over $3000. Things are a tad more expensive nowadays and hunts and expenses have gone the same direction. Recreational and business outfitters still have to turn a profit to stay in the business and its not unrealistic to expect them to do so.
the spring bear hunt was shut down 20 yrs ago. Yes it was a shock and financial kick in the nuts. But those that survived have upped their services in cottage rentals - fishing, atving, vacations etc. And they still had all the fall hunting. Now there is a spring hunt and this is an added time to increase their revenues and ADD to what they're currently earning. This is like getting a raise. My point in my previous post was that in stead of trying to make the cash by bringing as many clients as possible why not cater to fewer clients and sell a better product. fewer clients need fewer baits which require less work. You could essentially end up at the same financial spot! If your current baiting methods are wearing you out maybe it's time to change the methods. Less bait per site, fewer trips to each site, targeting and only feeding your target bear. And then harvesting the target bear for financially a lot more then selling cheap hunts for cubs and yearlings. Remember - cubs and yearlings are you're inventory for the future!
I think it's time for all to get on the thinking caps and start thinking out side the box. The days of just loading up barrels with endless amounts of bait is prehistoric thinking and backbreaking effort.
SK33t3R Buy outfitter business and then we'll talkQuote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
do you have an idea how many people I have they shot 100 pound bear and they were so happy and come back the following year
not everybody can afford $3000 hunt
Not everybody is a trophy Hunter
The bottom line is they screw up the whole Hunting industry in Ontario and will never going to be the same
I agree with Skull, cutting your prices does not entice a non-resident to hunt with you, even if you have big bears. We have had some hunters say we are not charging enough and remember the trophy price is only if the hunter shots a trophy bear, they did not get to be trophy bears by being predictable and waiting for the hunter. Perhaps if the government told you that you could only do 6 brake jobs a year then you could understand our situation. We got no notice of this change so no time to react to the new rules.
In typical MNR fashion they've managed to mess even the spring bear hunt up.
In just one case nearby an outfitter has 15 hunters booked for this spring hunt. MNR gives him 12 tags for the entire season yet gives residents an extra tag? Now he has to return money and cancel his fall hunt. How can an outfitter survive with these management decisions?
Chapleau, who have been on a quota system for a few years went from 1 bear per 50 sq km to 1 bear per 70 sq km. but the residents get an extra tag?
Not that I didn't believe you Sawbill, but I checked with NOTO on what your saying. You are 100% correct on this. She (Laura) is having a meeting with the minister this week.
I myself have heard nothing from local OMNRF, but......
TO AL MY OUTFITTER FRIENDS
I didn't think my last 2 posts would be that popular and if you've ever read anything I post about the MNR - I am not kind! I have nothing but respect for the CO's and the front line workers! BUT my hatred and distain and distrust goes deep for the policy makers. These are the back benchers that have been steering the ship up on the rocks, right over the rocks, up on the beach, and now 100 yds into the woods -(if that's possible).
I feel for all you guys and if this new quota thing is not corrected then my statements made were an attempt to maybe get some of you guys to find an alternative and stay in the game.
If it was me I'd almost tell the MNR to keep their friggin BMA. I know it would be hard to throw it in their face but if enough did it then maybe they'd back off.
I will be curious to see how many moose hunters - pack it in this year!
As much as I'd love to see 2nd tags I can agree that there shouldn't be 2nd tags as long as there's restrictions on you guys.
Just doesn't make any sense?????
SK33t3R Buy outfitter business and then we'll talk
I have tried but there isn't a BMA where I hunt
do you have an idea how many people I have they shot 100 pound bear and they were so happy and come back the following year
I agree entirely BUT for you to keep your business viable with these new quota's something has to change.
not everybody can afford $3000 hunt
Agree again - but how do you justify the investment in time/effort and money to give out cheap hunts on a quota.
Not everybody is a trophy Hunter
Agree again! wholeheartedly - but working man priced bear hunts with the quota will mean you're working for free.
The bottom line is they screw up the whole Hunting industry in Ontario and will never going to be the same
BINGO! This statement is everything in a nut shell!
Why don't you guys live trap 10 or 20 bears and bring them down to Toronto and let them go!
Well just got back from the post office. There was a letter in the box from the district office pertaining to sustainability of bears within my BMA's.
I have an appointment with the BMA official this afternoon.
fishermccann, bears are not possessions of anyone or thing. Wild animals which need to be harvested to manage the population. Outfitters are going to be allotted a sustainable number of tags. There is a worry by the OMNRF that there will be a dramatic increase in bear harvest by residents who will be taking up bear hunting for the first time.
They aren't sold by outfitters (unlike moose tags) - the outfitter sell guiding services.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
The bear quota system is incredibly stupid since we already have BMAs in place.
I removed my post because I felt it may be to inflammatory, but thanks for the answer , that explains it.
Just had my meeting. What they did was take my last 3 years and averaged it out. Was not 1 per 50 or 1 per 70.
I lost some, I will have to send deposits back. But it could've been worse!!!
Next year is a different story though!!! BIG changes in allotment for next year. Outfitters need to prepare themselves.
Thanks Sawbill, Skull and OFAH for this info, I would not have known ahead of time.
Chris send me a PMQuote:
Originally Posted by chris lavoie
Less or more allotment?Quote:
Originally Posted by chris lavoie
Have to see what the harvest for 2016. She said to be prepared for less.
We Can agree and disagree on things here but will never going to change nothingQuote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
If you live in Ontario is the wrong province for hunting friendly
I have been on it since 19988 and is going downhill really really fast
What is piss me off that they always wait to last-minute to make stupid decision
btw SK33T3R I have a BMA for sale if you're interested
I have no grief with the MNR making a decision that results in fewer tags. But they must be able to justify it and from what I can see, they can't justify it and won't try. And there's nothing more infuriating than that!
One of the biggest mistakes BMA owners ever did was not remain united after the BMA's were established and now they have no voice when it comes to these decisions.
Skull It's nice to banter back and forth and very often I see the light after I said something stupid. I have NO IDEA why the MNR has this need or desire to go in and FIX something that isn't broken. It's almost like they need to justify their jobs and part of that is create NEW LAWS on a regular basis. They have done some great things in the past but those guys retired and the ones we have now, are for the most part, deaf know-it-alls. You'd think they would consult with the user groups and really listen to what we say. There's so much first hand knowledge out there. I've said it on many posts before. There should be an panel of equal MNR reps and equal reps of the user group. Discussions and suggestions should be bantered and a vote determines the direction taken. Like a city or regional council. Hell it's the way democracy is supposed to be!Quote:
Originally Posted by skull
They seem to think all hunters are stupid and need to be guided by them. They seem to think we can't make hard decisions. Hunters are bigger conservationists then the MNR ever could be. And for them to think this way is another BIG mistake on their end.
This is just my $.02 FWIW. In some respects,creation of the BMA system has been very good for many outfitters because it levelled the playing field in an extremely competitive business,although,none of the BMA's applied to resident hunters (good thing,IMO) unless they were directly employing an area outfitter or were hiring their own independant guide. Sometimes,intense competition got downright nasty with vandalism and physical confrontation with violence. I personally broke up more than a few fights among guides/outfitters during my time as a LEO,so,I have first-hand knowledge. Overall,though,whether or not the system has been a good thing remains open to rigorous debate. Some will say that it's been good for competition and fairness while others vehemently disagree. After many decades of hunting all over the province,I'm sure It wouldn't be a business that I'd be interested in getting into.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
How can an outfitter sell a BMA to another outfitter. I thought the BMA's were given to outfitters by the MNR, so selling it would be like selling moose tags the MNR give to outfitters witch is illegal . If an outfitter cant or wont use a BMA they should lose it and another potential outfitter should be able to claim it ,No??
Not sure how this works so I am a little confused.
I believe you're correct. There's nothing stopping an outfitter from selling his business,but,the BMA doesn't go with it. That transfer must be handled by OMNRF by application,I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter John
BUT how does the MNR decide on who gets it? I think it's handed out like those gov't construction jobs!Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Maybe some of the outfitters can enlighten us.
The area I tried to get was a BMA at one time. No one there anymore. I inquire and they said there's areas of the province that have been set aside to be BMA less zones. Mine is NO BMA. Guaranteed eventually I will run in to an outfitter that just got it.
Maybe I can answer some of this stuff as I've been on both sides of the fence.
At one time you couldn't sell a trap line because you didn't own it. The crown owed it and the fur on it. The licence gave you sole permission to trap that crown land area. You did however own the camp you built on it, you owned the trails you constructed, you owned the traps and all the gear you used while trapping--boats, motors, canoes, snowmachine, sleighs,..........etc. You could sell those off and this often was the ruse trappers used to transfer a ground.
Then came a point system where certain criteria was used to determine whether an individual deserved a trapline. Actual trapping experience in years , distance one lived from the trapline, completion of FM course, etc.
Then MNR lightened up. At one time a trapper could only use his camp for directly related trapping activities and nothing else. Cutting firewood, clearing trails, prepping traps, that sorta thing. Then they decided that a trapper could use the camp full year around for any activities they desired, fishing, hunting, recreation etc.
Now, for transferring a BMA, one has to apply stating qualifications, background in outfitting business, a business plan, a management plan,....
The applications will be assessed and the most qualified would get the BMA. The one other way of obtaining a BMA would be to buy an outfitting business outright. One that catered to anglers, moose hunters, canoe tripping etc then if there was a BMA attached to the business then that BMA would go with the business.
Thanks Sawbill.
Well I for one am glad for the extra tags , way too many bear here in Cochrane, I personally know 3 people in the last two years that had bears come into there homes while they were in it and heard about a 4th encounter, 10 friends got 18 bears here last year just in about 6 square mile area. Just after season ended I saw two more right here on my property,thats alot of bears in a small area,so even after the 18 were taken and still seeing 2 more here,HOW MANY ARE HERE ???
Just got a call from the MNR they changed the allotment of bear tags for non-residents and have upped the outfitters allowed number of hunters for this year. But the numbers will be cut for next year, still waiting for information on the number of bears counted for my WMU area's.
This MNR really has no idea????
spring season on/off/back on/off/on.
non-residents yes/no maybe/yes/no yes
quotas no/yes/no/yes/no next year for sure
now they're gonna do a bear count??!!! NOW!!!
What? did they get extra funding? They've had since 1996 to count the bears!
I guess they'll be using hunter surveys - that seems to working wonderfully!
you guys still wasting your time talking about MNR and OFAHQuote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
don't you guys know they have no clue
Yes you are right they have no clue however they are the ones who decide whats what. It is better to be prepared than ignorant.Hunter surveys are not used to count bears apparently it is a barb wire count, place barb wire on a tree set out bait (sardine can) do DNA on the hair caught in the barb wire.Then they can tell sex,age and number of bears in an area. But how big is the area that they do the survey on, waiting for more information on this survey keep getting passed to the next person.
DNA barb wire test?
They should do a DNA enema test on the MNR policy makers.
I think they'll find a lot of inbreeding with an emphasis on small craniums.
And a hearing test will show hearing loss particularly within the range of banjo music.
Really cannot understand what the entire fuss about the tag numbers is all about.
a) we have way too many bears
b) residents only get one tag. less than 300 2nd tags (#tags does not equal #bears harvested...) is insignificant for the province and the overall population.
c) spring season practically limits you to hunt males
d) the land will dictate hunter distribution (with vast areas being not hunted at all)
e) how many males would you need to harvest before you see any impact to the overall population?
f) the spring bear hunt is a good thing, with extra opportunities for us and $$$ for the province to waste on something else
Gotta disagree. I've called the OFAH about a dozen times in the last couple years with various questions - some questions were straightforward, others were a little detailed and confusing. I have never NOT gotten a satisfactory response from someone at the OFAH, although I sometimes get bounced around between people. I can't say the same thing about the MNR. The staff at the OFAH are very knowledgeable and much easier to access than anyone at the MNR.Quote:
Originally Posted by skull
well it looks like there awake had a visitor this morningAttachment 32894
***They have changed a few things late in the week.
The OMNRF says if you take 10 spring hunters this year and only shoot 7 bears, you can take the 3 unfilled and book 3 more fore a Fall hunt.
Outfitters can thank Laurie Marcil of NOTO for her hard work and this change in their stance.
Actually, spring is the best for determining breeding females Especially when accompanied by yearlings. I tell my hunters, cubs of the year or yearlings, don't shoot the mom.
I saw a yearling a couple of days ago that was almost the same size as the mother bear.
Out of curiosity, why don't you let them shoot a female that has yearlings with her?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dude Bro
because its against the law!! ?
Either the video that OFAH posted on the regulation changes or the ASK a CO question in the magazine said that yearling bears are not considered cubs and you would not be breaking the law by shooting the sow.Quote:
Originally Posted by maximum chaos
I didn't dream this up - I know I heard/read it somewhere.
You are not allowed to shoot a sow with her yearlings. It does not matter if they are a year old, they will not survive on their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dude Bro
Skull, studies done right here in Sudbury have proved that to be incorrect. The study was done by Cambrian college in conjunction with MNR quite a few years ago but you will never see the results as the program was run by an anti and the results were certainly not what they expected or wanted.
The study encompassed about 70 orphaned cubs and there was no more mortality than that experienced with cubs denned with their mother.
The OMNRF wants us ( outfitters) to shoot only 20% breeding age females and 40 percent female overall. Having a mom and last years cubs with her is a great way to know she is breeding age. We passed a mother bear with 1 yearling cub yesterday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dude Bro
Toddy is correct!!Quote:
Originally Posted by toddy