New study may cast doubt on previous e-collar studies

This is a new study which casts doubt on previous studies that have relied on salivary cortisol to indicate when dogs are under stress. This is important to hunting dog trainers because it affects some of the leading studies that have criticized the use of e-collars.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...39724016300418

A quick summary: cortisol is a hormone released when a dog is under stress. Many researchers have used the level of cortisol in a dog's saliva to indicate whether the dog is stressed out in a particular situation. It is taken as given that stress is bad, i.e. that where dogs are stressed out, we ought to be concerned for their welfare.

The authors of this most recent study contacted other researchers, collected their data, and then looked at how the data varied between the studies. The overall finding here is that cortisol levels vary widely based on a number of factors, so studies based on cortisol must be very carefully controlled. And of course the implication of that finding is that some of the existing studies may be bunk.

The leading study on e-collars, as it stands, bases its key finding on cortisol levels.

Thanks, welsh. It'd be interesting to compare two groups of dogs. One trained with e-c and the other with "traditional methods".
The groups would have to be as similar as possible, esp. at the level of training, so no clicker trained ankle biters.

Very interesting post Welsh. Thanks.

sure adds credence to the old saying amoung trainers: "The only thing two dog trainers can agree on is what the third trainer is doing it wrong."

LOL. Applies equally to science at times.

well, the analysis you cited does not exactly talk about e-collars...

The only real thing this study found is:
[COLOR=#2E2E2E]Intact female dogs were found to have higher cortisol concentration than neutered females, intact males, and neutered males

it does state that previous studies might have issues; e.g. because important parameters were not recorded
[COLOR=#2E2E2E]Time of day and influence of circadian and/or diurnal rhythm on salivary cortisol concentration is a key consideration in the design of studies using cortisol. The analysis of sampling time effect was limited by the raw data collected in recruited studies.

It also states some long known facts from human models. This really questions the use of cortisol levels as a simple indicator for
"canine stress" in the first place.
[COLOR=#2E2E2E]Cortisol is a complex stress hormone, and as such, is not easy to interpret. Human psychological literature finds that declining cortisol is not necessarily good and rising cortisol is not necessarily bad [58][COLOR=#2E2E2E] and [59][COLOR=#2E2E2E]. [COLOR=#2E2E2E]

we all know the left doesn't need facts when they get all the publicity needed to indoctrinate the general public
but everyone who ever used an e-collar (properly!) knows that it's better for the dog and handler than any of the old school methods.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

well, the analysis you cited does not exactly talk about e-collars...

---

No, it does not. But as I pointed out, the leading e-collar study uses salivary cortisol as the basis of its findings. I know what this study found. And I know enough about the other research to see its implications. Evidently, you're not up on the research.

E-collars are not good or bad depending on your position on the political spectrum. They are overused, and usually misused, even by people who think they use them correctly. And the alternatives are not necessarily punitive methods. If you have decided that e-collar studies are a matter of "the left" pushing an agenda, you've disqualified yourself from serious discussion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by welsh

...
E-collars are not good or bad depending on your position on the political spectrum.
....
If you have decided that e-collar studies are a matter of "the left" pushing an agenda, you've disqualified yourself from serious discussion.

---

thanks for the update on your post - especially getting more personal. I'm sure you imagine that PETA and similar "animal rights anarchists" are equally distributed throughout the political spectrum

I'm appreciative of someone sharing articles on here, but the link you try to make between some meta data analysis and specific studies cannot be substantiated.
Concerns existed long before, but that doesn't mean some studies get more attention than others - if it fits someone's agenda...

These studies are being taken seriously by people who are interested in the evidence. If you want to be taken seriously, you argue the evidence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

I'm appreciative of someone sharing articles on here, but the link you try to make between some meta data analysis and specific studies cannot be substantiated.

---

Really? Do you even know the study I'm talking about?

This metadata analysis raises questions about experimental design in past studies. If you're familiar with the leading e-collar study, which I've discussed here before, you'll be aware that there are questions as to how the researchers interpreted salivary cortisol and why they found it significant in one context but ignored it in another, and (frankly) whether the data used to make its findings was perhaps collected only after the authors' initial design failed to find the desired result. The points raised in this paper tend to validate those concerns.

This paper is doubly significant if you know who the lead author is. Do you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by welsh

These studies are being taken seriously by people who are interested in the evidence. If you want to be taken seriously, you argue the evidence.

---

if someone were to read this post outside this thread, they might think you argue the existence of UFOs.

we all entertain some level of wishful thinking, but it would help if you were to list a few of those people you're talking about. in simple terms, show us how significant this paper is; i.e. how was it received and what were the ripple effects (if any) on a scientific level
to be clear; I don't get the feeling that you are looking for a scientific nor a sociopolitical discussion anyway.

as we have gotten already far enough off topic and encouraged by your accusational attitude, I have to say, after being absent from this forum for a few months, that I certainly did not miss your bitterness

Either you follow the research, the conversations around that research, and the use of that research in the political sphere, or you don't. I have better things to do than to count citations to prove a point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vom Dufenshmirtz

Thanks, welsh. It'd be interesting to compare two groups of dogs. One trained with e-c and the other with "traditional methods".
The groups would have to be as similar as possible, esp. at the level of training, so no clicker trained ankle biters.

---

could you get enough similar traits even within the same litters? With so much said about how dogs are individuals? But I do see your point of testing with collars and no collars. You know how spun my dog is, I would actually venture that he is calmer with a collar on actually.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by welsh

Either you follow the research, the conversations around that research, and the use of that research in the political sphere, or you don't. I have better things to do than to count citations to prove a point.

---

would a study like this not have to be commissioned/funded by a group with a specific agenda? The suspicious side of me would think the people performing the tests would want to please the masters just like the dogs no?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by welsh

...
I have better things to do than to count citations to prove a point.

---

especially if there isn't much, right?
there is a good reason for it and that also tells me you're not involved in actual research of any kind

hey, not that there's anything wrong with reading papers out of personal interest, but you should be open/objective to other opinions. After all, that's how the scientific world kind of works (along with being able to back up your thesis with facts/references)

Uh, the reason I follow the research is that I'm open to other opinions. I'm always looking for new ideas and perspectives that may lead us to reconsider conventional wisdom. Indeed, that's why I have no patience for the arguments based on poisoning the well with who is on "the left" or "the right." Being open to other opinions requires that you consider the evidence. I'm not the one showing he's not open to new ideas here.

I don't expect to back up what I say here with facts and references, because in case you haven't noticed, this is a discussion board. It's not the norm to post a whole set of references every time you start a thread. You show me one other person on this board who you're holding to that standard.

I don't have very much to prove here. I didn't say the paper I linked to disproved anything. I said it cast doubt on some e-collar work that had relied on salivary cortisol. That is true: it raises questions about how well controlled those studies actually were. I also referred to one study in particular as the leading study; I refer to it as such because it is the one I have seen most often cited informally as the last word on e-collars. There have been no others since, that I'm aware of.

This isn't really a discussion over the implications the paper I linked to in the OP has for existing research (which I've cited here previously, in some cases). It's you trying to shout me down because you didn't like my pointing out that babbling about "the left" or "the right" isn't a feature of serious discussions among grownups.

Then there's the "hold my beer and watch this" scientific study....looks like a bunch of guys off the forum :)

They should have just measured his salivary cortisol level to see if he was stressed....LOL...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsX3pAmbBts

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

especially if there isn't much, right?
there is a good reason for it and that also tells me you're not involved in actual research of any kind

hey, not that there's anything wrong with reading papers out of personal interest, but you should be open/objective to other opinions. After all, that's how the scientific world kind of works (along with being able to back up your thesis with facts/references)

---

You won't find anyone who does better real research and doesn't just spout off than Welsh. I can always count on that and enjoy all his posts.

I'd like to know what you edited Andrew . I bet i know. LOL

Hilarious post Mike. :)

Andrew is usually spot on and no BS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by welsh

...who is on "the left" or "the right." .
....
I don't expect to back up what I say here with facts and references, ...
.... Grow up.

---

well, now I know what ticked you off - politics. LOL
as you continue to stay off topic (no matter how often you're presented with an invitation to get back to your own thread!):
it's always the same with you; you start up with a set of facts and give it a well-worded spin and someone thinks you are actually interested in the topic and tries to engage. as soon as you run out of facts (or something else ticks you off) it gets personal (1000s of posts prove it).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikePal

Then there's the "hold my beer and watch this" scientific study....looks like a bunch of guys off the forum :)

...

---

good idea! maybe we should get together for a team building exercise - certainly time better spent than with keyboard wars LOL