Anti wind turbine thread ?

Re: http://m.torontosun.com/2016/07/21/f...s-gridmonsters

Liars...both of them...

"WPD Canada and Capstone, the companies behind the wind power projects, say there is nothing to worry about, because the turbines are far enough from the temples and noise levels are well below the regulated maximum.
"There will be no sound generated at the site, and, because of the topography of the area, the hills and the trees, the visual impact is going to be reduced,'' said Kevin Surette, a spokesperson for WPD Canada

Local resident Ralph McKim agrees, adding concerns about the noise are exaggerated and the community is experiencing a ''clash of anxiety'' like never before.

McKim, 85, has agreed to lease his land to WPD Canada to install a wind turbine.
"If we are serious about climate change, we need to put these turbines somewhere,'' McKim said.


It looks like these may become a hunting issue, so maybe we should have an anti/protest wind turbine thread? Or OOD / OFAH start working with anti wind turbine coalitions? I could easily envision a 500m 'no hunting' zone established around every turbine.

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Originally Posted by zoli 16ga.

It looks like these may become a hunting issue, so maybe we should have an anti/protest wind turbine thread? Or OOD / OFAH start working with anti wind turbine coalitions? I could easily envision a 500m 'no hunting' zone established around every turbine.

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Since you already have posted on the thread with that topic....http://www.oodmag.com/community/show...to-ban-hunting...which already has that link posted in it (#111)...one can only speculate as to why you have started this thread...:)

Maybe to help support continued hunting in wind farm zones? Maybe to stop further wind farm installations from possibly ruining farm country and rural areas? Maybe help support the few against corporate greed?

I was just asking. If there is no interest then so be it.

Hunters jumping into an anti-wind coalition would be counterproductive.

For the wind companies, it would make a great reason to include a ban on hunting in their agreements. The short-term battle over that, if won, wins them a long-term victory.

OK then.

Delta waterfowl is looking into the issue

Like I posted on the other thread...they may make the landowner liable for damage, forcing him to carry extra insurance...So that would mean the hunt clubs may have to pony up that cost as part of their lease/land use agreement with the farmer. Could be a game changer.

I asked my neighbor about hunting as he has 300 acres and 3 windmills on his property.

He told me when they drew up an agreement he made it so hunting will still be aloud....forever. He has a 20 year contract with it. He said he will cut them down if they ever tried to stop him. He deer hunts the property, I coyote hunt it pretty hard as he's got 1500 pigs keeping them around.

I should add he's the most hated man in this township. One of the first to get windmills....always has people dumping garbage and ripping up his fields. Not so much anymore but he was afraid to show his face for quite sometime after getting them 3 gigantic eye sores

Kinda like the movie Dead Man Walking. lol People do stupid things for money.

was out on the bike today i seen they building them in Bethany poor town

Not sure what you're saying MikePal? Hunters should remain silent so that the windmills don't assume we're antis and thereby ban us from the property? I've hunted geese around them and everything was fine ...until somebody broke into one of the towers ..... company assumed it might be HUNTERS so now we're getting grief from the Windmill company through the landowners. Don't think keeping your mouth shut will help.

Nobody wants these things in our area but the liberals made it so we get them shoved down our throats anyway.

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Originally Posted by DanO

Not sure what you're saying MikePal? Hunters should remain silent so that the windmills don't assume we're antis and thereby ban us from the property?

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Who me ??? now what am I being accused of saying...???

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Who me ??? now what am I being accused of saying...???

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You're accused of saying what I said, although I didn't actually say "hunters should remain silent."

See, the OFAH could take the tack of meeting with the wind companies and talking with them. The OFAH could remind them that incidents of vandalism have nothing to do with hunting. And the OFAH could talk to them about hunting's excellent safety record, and remind them that across rural Ontario each fall, thousands of agricultural and other workers work outside within earshot of gunshots without any accidents. By sitting down and meeting with these people, the OFAH could make some headway.

Or, alternatively, the OFAH could join an anti-wind coalition dedicated to putting the wind companies out of business, and turn the whole thing into a fight -- a fight which, unless we have a change of government, the OFAH can only lose.

Well, I'll let people make up their own minds on the wise course of action....

OFAH has responded with fighting words already.
find it "interesting" that WFs use workplace safety laws as the basis of their concern, yet don't seem to care much about them (various laws, or protected acts including threatened/endangered species) when it doesn't suit their or Ms Wynnes purposes. However isn't that always the case with everything, smoke and mirrors. Proponents stand to make huge sums of money, tax revenue that might be garnered or lost. Lawsuits that might be launched, won or lost. (Believe there's over 60 lawsuits before the courts in Ont currently relating to wind)

So much at stake.

2 incidents
1 clearly vandalism.
1 employees were concerned because they heard shots...lmao

http://www.theobserver.ca/2016/08/07...-on-their-turf

Will developers start adding clauses to bar hunting, or have adequate insurance? They already have something of a history of squishing opponents, and there are accusations of more including shenanigans of burying data, altering.......

imo, why re-invent the wheel. If your one of the great majority sickened by by them, or what's going on. Speak out, add your voice and more. Let OFAH does what it does without a formal "anti WF" banner. The issue is way to political

The wind farms will prevail in the end as long as Wynne is in power. What's the solution here? Vote that idiot out.

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Originally Posted by terrym

The wind farms will prevail in the end as long as Wynne is in power. What's the solution here? Vote that idiot out.

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the above is the only way. too many clueless people in the GTA will prevent it from happening though

You really have to wonder when various agencies don't follow their mandates. Be it green lighting developments in environmentally sensitive areas (Bon Echo, the Oak Ridges Morraine). Or where endangered species are barely holding on (blanding Turtles), or where MPAC is quietly reducing assessments (see Wolfe Island). Where developers are suing the govt ( there's more than just the one famous one that made a big splash), squishing opposition, forcing non disclosure (gee aren't our governments all about Transparency?) and on and on.

theres not much to go by, but in the U.S. there's instances of both Big Wind starting to curtail hunting, and supporting. Hard to say imp which way the wind will blow. However this is not a good sign. Especially if push comes to shove, because I'm betting Ms Wynne will say..."not much can be done, workplace safety laws"...

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Originally Posted by 73hunter

the above is the only way. too many clueless people in the GTA will prevent it from happening though

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The GTA has consistently been electing conservative mayors.

The PCs have to field a credible candidate. The last election was theirs to lose and they rose to the challenge.

The liberals are ideologically opposed to guns and hunting. Do you really think they would intervene on hunter's behalf. Nothing but another crooked way of enforcing their agenda.

Workplace safety? I coyote hunt with the farmers actively working their fields, I simply make sure I'm not in their way and vice.
I would think hunting safety would be the same regardless of the type structure, etc and thus a non issue.

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Originally Posted by welsh

The GTA has consistently been electing conservative mayors.


The PCs have to field a credible candidate. The last election was theirs to lose and they rose to the challenge.

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i wouldn't call David Miller a Conservative and many wouldn't call Tory one either.

the PC's are just about the worse campaigners in the game. They need to read the liberal playbook and just lie. Then when in office do the right thing.

Agreed R.
however common sense rarely seems to prevail in Ontario anymore. How useful that is, as a gauge or baseline..... and often there are cliches or adages that rarely lose their value. A few come to mind, however these two in particular.

Follow the money (self explanatory given things)
The best indicator of future behaviour is past behaviour.
How much would you put beyond this admin....

Nor Barbara Hall Welsh.
Not even sure Lastman qualifies. He was just off the wall and all over the map.

Don't worry! Donald Trump will straighten out this country when he's elected!

The first politician that campaigns for putting a wall around the GTA..gets my vote !! >..LOL...

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Originally Posted by SK33T3R

Don't worry! Donald Trump will straighten out this country when he's elected!

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It's spelled, Kevin O'Leary

We'll see what Patrick Brown can do, although I have my reservations. I was fully supportive of him after first hearing him speak locally, even inviting him down to my gun club to speak and sell memberships during his leadership campaign. I hopped on board the campaign team after I got to know him a bit, and was very enthusiastic about his victory. But now I worry. A central plank of his leadership campaign platform was that party policy would be developed at the riding association level and travel upward, rather than vice versa. He proved that a lie at the first convention, decreeing that the PCs would implement a carbon tax, albeit "revenue neutral" (yeah right). Thus, although I am going to vote PC because my PC MPP is a really good guy/friend/competent, and Wynn has got to go, I wonder about Brown's integrity. I am now officially non-partisan on both the federal and provincial levels, but generally speaking my vote is the PCs to lose.

http://www.stthomastimesjournal.com/...-hot-air-level

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Originally Posted by 73hunter

the above is the only way. too many clueless people in the GTA will prevent it from happening though

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PB has made tremendous inroads into the GTA communities. The Libs will not have the GTA in their pocket next election.

Hoping Smallgamer. The Cons certainly have their faults, however some common sense...no way to prove much of anything, but it would take an incredible amount of stuff, to make plausible arguements as prov we wouldn't be so much better off. If only, people had listened or taken the blinders off in 2010. And in some cases set aside their own self interest.

Am am no longer a resident of Whitby ( Christine Elliot's old riding) but in the short time Lorne Coe has been in. He's gained a ton of respect, as just a normal person who cares, deeply about what's been done to the province on the whole, and where it's heading.

just think about this.
The energy file in Ontario alone will undoubtedly be cited as one of the worst examples of mismanagement, corruption/collusion, abuses of a few things and more. Anywhere. And that's only the one topic, and what's "known".

Brown seems to be a Red Tory even more so than Mayor Tory. I wanted Lisa to win, but she backed out. Brown doesn't seem to have the fire in his belly for leadership and I my gut also says don't trust him.

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Originally Posted by smallgamer

We'll see what Patrick Brown can do, although I have my reservations. I was fully supportive of him after first hearing him speak locally, even inviting him down to my gun club to speak and sell memberships during his leadership campaign. I hopped on board the campaign team after I got to know him a bit, and was very enthusiastic about his victory. But now I worry. A central plank of his leadership campaign platform was that party policy would be developed at the riding association level and travel upward, rather than vice versa. He proved that a lie at the first convention, decreeing that the PCs would implement a carbon tax, albeit "revenue neutral" (yeah right). Thus, although I am going to vote PC because my PC MPP is a really good guy/friend/competent, and Wynn has got to go, I wonder about Brown's integrity. I am now officially non-partisan on both the federal and provincial levels, but generally speaking my vote is the PCs to lose.

http://www.stthomastimesjournal.com/...-hot-air-level

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Originally Posted by JBen

Nor Barbara Hall Welsh.
Not even sure Lastman qualifies. He was just off the wall and all over the map.

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Since 2010 the trend has been conservative mayors in Toronto. What happened before that isn't really relevant to today's politics.

It is simply not a fact that the GTA always votes Liberal.

I reread the headline in the link I posted, and saw something questionable, and made an inquiry:

Sent to John Miner at Postmedia:


On Friday, August 12, 2016 11:43 AM, SG wrote:


Hello


My name is SG, and I am a constituent of Jeff Yurek. I am curious as to the headline "Elgin-Middlesex-London MPP Jeff Yurek takes hunting rights to whole new hot air level".


I fully agree with Mr. Yurek on this issue, and just wish to be clear. Are you suggesting that he is blowing hot air, or was the headline a typo?


I look forward to your response.


Regards,


Mr. SG
St. Thomas, On.






11:53am

Hi SG: Reporters here don't write the headlines and I must admit I'm not sure either what point they were trying to make with that one. John

PM from my MPP: The print edition has a better headline. Thanks for following up, much appreciated.

I've long wondered that about Welsh. When Ford first won ( in a fairly rare at any level landslide) I thought the provincial Liberals were done. And even when it became abundantly clear Ford had to go. There remained a strong "allegiance". If there anything that can really be looked at as the take away.

Toronto sure does have an ability to pick them. Their record is well about as bad, illogical and lacking common sense as we see at QP. :)
Ford
Hall
Lastman
McWynne
:)

"red Torys"
reality is Canadian are (perhaps were) statistically (numerically) slightly left of center. The vast bulk of society is in the middle. Maybe a little left on this, a little right on that. Or depending on the times slightly L or R.

A time and place for everything.
"red Torys" is where they should be (imo)

some things have changed though, and like the States I think we're losing the middle. More polarized, more "winner take all". And at least provincially I'm utterly convinced we have to change the ridings. Either numbers of, or their concentrations. Aka split a few rural or northern ridings into 2. Or combine a few ridings inside the GTA from 2 to 1.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

Brown seems to be a Red Tory even more so than Mayor Tory. I wanted Lisa to win, but she backed out. Brown doesn't seem to have the fire in his belly for leadership and I my gut also says don't trust him.

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Jeff, my MPP, supported Elliot. Maybe I should have got on board that train. However, PB has welcomed him into his shadow cabinet in a big way so that's good.

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Originally Posted by smallgamer

I reread the headline in the link I posted, and saw something questionable, and made an inquiry

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The (online) headline is now "Elgin-Middlesex-London MPP Jeff Yurek takes up wind farm hunting ban fight in region."

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Originally Posted by welsh

The (online) headline is now "Elgin-Middlesex-London MPP Jeff Yurek takes up wind farm hunting ban fight in region."

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Yup:
Hi SG: I'm going to try to get the headline changed online.



John Miner The London Free Press
519-667-4517

Got approval for headline change. Should show up shortly online.


John Miner The London Free Press
519-667-4517

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

Brown seems to be a Red Tory even more so than Mayor Tory. I wanted Lisa to win, but she backed out. Brown doesn't seem to have the fire in his belly for leadership and I my gut also says don't trust him.

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Brown "seems" more red tory because the days of blue tories getting elected in Ontario are over? Does he think a carbon tax is a good idea? Of course not - but you're not going to get elected in Ontario if you say that out loud. Remember Hudak - he said what he thought and look where that got him.

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Originally Posted by smallgamer

Yup:
Hi SG: I'm going to try to get the headline changed online.



John Miner The London Free Press
519-667-4517

Got approval for headline change. Should show up shortly online.


John Miner The London Free Press
519-667-4517

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Good win. Pushing back helps.

It was a stupid headline.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Good win. Pushing back helps.


It was a stupid headline.

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Thanks.

I would like to see Harris come back.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Brown "seems" more red tory because the days of blue tories getting elected in Ontario are over? Does he think a carbon tax is a good idea? Of course not - but you're not going to get elected in Ontario if you say that out loud. Remember Hudak - he said what he thought and look where that got him.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

I would like to see Harris come back.

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No kidding..I like how he viewed the bigger picture in most areas....just not happy when my wife lost her first job at the hospital because of his cuts :)

Yes but way more lay offs under the Liberals and quality of Health Care dropped like a rock.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

No kidding..I like how he viewed the bigger picture in most areas....just not happy when my wife lost her first job at the hospital because of his cuts :)

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There are those who will argue Harris nudged the energy train off the tracks. In hindsight it's hard to argue that. However the utter derailment that followed.......

it's well and truly fubar Ed now. To make matters worse there are already many lawsuits launched by all sides. The jury is still out on health effects, and it will probably be years. How long did it take for governments to acknowledge/determine smoking kills? Do a little digging into Wolfe Island. But that's just one.

hydo rates?
how do they get fixed now? Harris mucked a few things up. Not all that hard when times are good, there's cash, room to borrow. Yep, fixing things is a lot easier when you aren't broke and in debt up to your eyeballs..and or the provincial, or country or global economies are humming, forget sucking wind....even if prayerfully Brown wins....his hands will be shackled to and not just on the Hydro file.
And people thought Harper dealt with the devil and big oil...lmao

back to Wind or Big Wind and hunting.
This is not a good sign. If it's not stopped cold, dollars to donuts, there's more and if it involves QP. While it's most likely not going to go well, it won't be because the Liberals are anti hunting.

they are in bed with big $. And, so much spent, so much at stake, so much invested now.
Follow the money.

this is an issue between landlord and tenant...it will be resolved at that level.

Think about it, a farmer that signed up to lease his land has already shown he has little interest in public opinion.

So if he was allowing hunting on the property before, that will likely continue..unless the tenant forces a provision in the contract.

IMO the "hate for Harper" was incorrectly interpreted by the Conservatives as "we need to be more lleft/liberal."

The West will go back to strong PC and dump the libs/ndp once all the East coasters make it back home.

So IMO the real conversion needs to be in the East Coast and Kebeckistan.

I just have this idea that a property owner who has no qualms about getting rich on the backs of fellow citizens isn't likely to be much concerned about hunters.

You show me someone who has qualms about getting rich on the backs of fellow citizens and I'll show you Mahatma friggin' Ghandi.

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Originally Posted by welsh

You show me someone who has qualms about getting rich on the backs of fellow citizens and I'll show you Mahatma friggin' Ghandi.

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Well, I must be a little brown man with big ears, and my neighbours as well, because the solar panel and windmill companies came knocking a few years ago and we all had the opportunity to hook up and start screwing our fellow citizens. But most folks declined the opportunity because they didn't want to be part of the problem. I said most - there were a few who didn't think or didn't care about about their contribution to Ontario's decline.

I'm not going to get into a discussion of your personal ethics. My point stands.

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Originally Posted by welsh

I'm not going to get into a discussion of your personal ethics. My point stands.

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Mine and my neighbours' stand higher.

Well the city folk want the turbines so bad I have a great solution for it. There's lots of wind to catch on top of all those high rises and condos in the city, let's just mount those ugly eyesore's on all the buildings downtown and surrounding urban areas, that way they get the windmills they so desperately desire, the city is already ugly so it doesn't make the landscape any worse, you can't hunt in the city so it won't effect us hunters in any way and as a bonus everyone gets to enjoy pristine countryside! Everyone wins, but somehow I think when those ugly POS's showed up in the city where the urbanites could actually see them there would be quite a bit of NIMBYism going on.

Maybe they will build a gas plant so they don't have to have windmills.

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Originally Posted by glen

Maybe they will build a gas plant so they don't have to have windmills.

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Im proposing we take all unemployed people and put them in a hamster wheel to produce power. pay them lower than what it costs to sell the energy generated. This ought to be good for any political platform out there: Reduce unemployment rate, produce cleaner energy, promote healthy active lifestyles etc. its just win win for all.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Deer Wrastler

Im proposing we take all unemployed people and put them in a hamster wheel to produce power. pay them lower than what it costs to sell the energy generated. This ought to be good for any political platform out there: Reduce unemployment rate, produce cleaner energy, promote healthy active lifestyles etc. its just win win for all.

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Public sector hamster wheel runners? Before you know it, their union would have them on the sunshine list and hydro rates would go up again.

Wind turbines are no more of an eyesore than the high voltage powerlines that have crossed our otherwise pristine countryside for decades.

Attachment 33227

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Originally Posted by Mcfasio

Wind turbines are no more of an eyesore than the high voltage powerlines that have crossed our otherwise pristine countryside for decades.

Attachment 33227

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those transmission lines are also needed to transport what the windmills produce at uncompetitive costs. Apples and oranges. What little energy the windmills produce is sold off at a loss. The people connected with this scam make great money on it from the manufacturers to landowners to liberals but they only raise the cost of hydro for everybody else. Not only do they reduce property values they are a bad investment.

Wind turbines don't produce atmospheric emissions that cause acid rain or greenhouse gases. Wind energy doesn't pollute the air like power plants that rely on combustion of fossil fuels, such as coal or natural gas.

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Originally Posted by Mcfasio

Wind turbines don't produce atmospheric emissions that cause acid rain or greenhouse gases. Wind energy doesn't pollute the air like power plants that rely on combustion of fossil fuels, such as coal or natural gas.

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But they also are inneficient and unreliable so we still need other methods. We lose money everyday they operate. We can't go on losing money everyday.

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Originally Posted by terrym

But they also are inneficient and unreliable so we still need other methods. We lose money everyday they operate. We can't go on losing money everyday.

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Long Term they are the future...we don't see it here in Canada, still too early, but more and more European counties are embracing it as the long term solution to their oil dependency and resource problems.

As this article shows us....completely reliable.

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On an unusually windy day, Denmark found itself producing 116% of its national electricity needs from wind turbines yesterday evening. By 3am on Friday, when electricity demand dropped, that figure had risen to 140%.

Interconnectors allowed 80% of the power surplus to be shared equally between Germany and Norway, which can store it in hydropower systems for use later. Sweden took the remaining fifth of excess power.
“It shows that a world powered 100% by renewable energy is no fantasy,” said Oliver Joy, a spokesman for trade body the European Wind Energy Association. “Wind energy and renewables can be a solution to decarbonisation – and also security of supply at times of high demand.”


https://www.theguardian.com/environm...tricity-demand

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Originally Posted by Mcfasio

Wind turbines don't produce atmospheric emissions that cause acid rain or greenhouse gases. Wind energy doesn't pollute the air like power plants that rely on combustion of fossil fuels, such as coal or natural gas.

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That's the problem with the Climate Change people. They only say what makes people "feel" good. But they leave out the whole truth. http://www.bccrwe.com/index.php/8-ne...-manufacturing

It's the same as e-cars. No mention of the large carbon footprint and environmental damage of the manufacturing process.

This Health Canada Report compares wind turbine noise to road traffic noise, and wind turbine noise levels near the participants' home was not found to be associated with sleep efficiency, the rate of awakenings, duration of awakenings, total sleep time, or how long it took to fall asleep.
No statistically significant association was observed between measured blood pressure, or resting heart rate, and exposure to wind turbine noise.
Self-reported stress, as measured by scores on the Perceived Stress Scale, was not found to be related to exposure to wind turbine noise levels.
Exposure to wind turbine noise was not found to be associated with any significant changes in reported quality of life for any of the four domains (Physical; Environmental; Social and Psychological) nor with overall quality of life and satisfaction with health.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/nois...resume-eng.php

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Originally Posted by Maximus44

That's the problem with the Climate Change people. They only say what makes people "feel" good.

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http://www.ec.gc.ca/sc-cs/Default.as...5F83C26-1#_s04
This Environment Canada Report Summarises the following:

-The science is conclusive: Global warming is unequivocal and human influence on the climate system is clear.
-Impacts of a changing climate are already being felt, and they will increase with further warming. Adaptation will be needed to manage the risks.
-The cumulative total emissions is what determines the ultimate level of warming. To avoid exceeding 2°C, global GHG emissions need to decrease rapidly.
-GHG emissions need to become net zero in order to stabilize climate at any temperature.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Long Term they are the future...we don't see it here in Canada, still too early, but more and more European counties are embracing it as the long term solution to their oil dependency and resource problems.

As this article shows us....completely reliable.

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Other than tiny isolated islands and remote installations that use diesel gensets, Denmark and Germany have the most expensive electricity rates in the world. Not a model i would choose to follow.

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Originally Posted by Species8472

Other than tiny isolated islands and remote installations that use diesel gensets, Denmark and Germany have the most expensive electricity rates in the world. Not a model i would choose to follow.

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Not a choice when a country has to or wants to shed is dependency on oil...once you've lived there ( I did for 4 yrs) you begin to understand the cost of using a renewable resource is worth it to them.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Not a choice when a country has to or wants to shed is dependency on oil...once you've lived there ( I did for 4 yrs) you begin to understand the cost of using a renewable resource is worth it to them.

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Anecdotal at best Mike as i have 5 or 6 Danish friends and about a dozen German friends ranging in age from 30 to 80+ and they are all in agreement that the Danish model is terrible. Anecdotal as well but counter to your "gotta live there to get it" anecdote.

The cost on the other hand is fact.

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Originally Posted by Species8472

Anecdotal at best Mike as i have 5 or 6 Danish friends and about a dozen German friends ranging in age from 30 to 80+ and they are all in agreement that the Danish model is terrible. Anecdotal as well but counter to your "gotta live there to get it" anecdote.

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let me clarify....you have to understand that the Europeans are far more environmentally conscious than we are in North America..once you live there you begin to understand...they don't use the hose to wash their driveways, recycling isn't an option it's the law with hefty fines. When you stop at a long traffic light you have to, by law, kill the engine till the light turns green etc. etc.

It's more a way of life....Germany has twice the population of Canada in an area the size of New Brunswick...so pollution and environmental issue are a very high priority. The use of coal fired power plants are no longer acceptable and are being phased out in favour of wind/solar...the cost is high, but to meet target environmental goals..it has to be done. Not anecdotal..

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Originally Posted by MikePal

let me clarify....you have to understand that the Europeans are far more environmentally conscious than we are in North America..once you live there you begin to understand...they don't use the hose to wash their driveways, recycling isn't an option it's the law with hefty fines. When you stop at a long traffic light you have to, by law, kill the engine till the light turns green etc. etc.

It's more a way of life....Germany has twice the population of Canada in an area the size of New Brunswick...so pollution and environmental issue are a very high priority. The use of coal fired power plants are no longer acceptable and are being phased out in favour of wind/solar...the cost is high, but to meet target environmental goals..it has to be done. Not anecdotal..

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That is simply not true (the coal part) Germany is burning more coal that ever and building new coal fired facilities and opening new coal mines in an effort to provide firm capacity to backup their unreliable solar/wind.

Those are the facts. Just google Germany and coal and you will get 100s of links that will show you.

We just stumbled upon another windmill location, start sticking them on top of the hydro line towers, feed directly into the lines. Stick one on every tower, particularly the ones in the city, where the greatest amount of consumers are. Are they to big and cumbersome to get up there? Reengineer it so it works. If these ugly (and they are ugly) things are the way of the future, then I want the city folks to cohabitate with them and enjoy them as much as the rural folks do.

Did I hear at some point good ol' Dalton was involved with windmill technology on some sort of executive level?

[COLOR=#333333]On an unusually windy day, Denmark found itself producing 116% of its national electricity needs from wind turbines yesterday evening. By 3am on Friday, when electricity demand dropped, that figure had risen to 140%.

[COLOR=#333333]Interconnectors allowed 80% of the power surplus to be shared equally between Germany and Norway, which can store it in hydropower systems for use later. Sweden took the remaining fifth of excess power.
[COLOR=#000000][COLOR=#333333]“It shows that a world powered 100% by renewable energy is no fantasy,” said Oliver Joy, a spokesman for trade body the European Wind Energy Association. “Wind energy and renewables can be a solution to decarbonisation – and also security of supply at times of high demand.”“140% of required energy”
[COLOR=#000000]

[COLOR=#000000]Based on one freakishly windy day July of 2015?
So they are most clearly not producing the energy they “require” as energy is required 24/7 and wind and solar cannot supply this.

Britain is starting to bail out of wind power.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-scam-age.html

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Originally Posted by MikePal

The use of coal fired power plants are no longer acceptable and are being phased out in favour of wind/solar...the cost is high, but to meet target environmental goals..it has to be done. Not anecdotal..

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Originally Posted by Species8472

That is simply not true (the coal part) Germany is burning more coal that ever and building new coal fired facilities and opening new coal mines in an effort to provide firm capacity to backup their unreliable solar/wind.

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I did ..this is what the people want..as I said...coal is unacceptable..:

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He draws hope from a recent poll, which asked German citizens what was their preferred source of power.


Most wanted solar power (80 percent), while 76 percent also wanted wind power as part of the mix.

At the other end of the poll, eight percent said they wanted nuclear. Just five percent said coal.

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The government was in the process but as you see in the article the got sidetrackd by getting rid of Nuclear first...but coal is still on the way out and being replaced by wind/solar....it's just going to take a little longer.

https://euobserver.com/energy/132106

One last point Mike. I'll agree europeans tend to take environmental issues more seriously than most. The anecdotal part is thw opinion that this makes them okay with having the most expensive electricity in the world. Unless there is some large scale study i don't know about that is opinion and not a fact.

A little longer? What, like forever? They have no idea how long as the technology does not currently exist to meet their goals.

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Originally Posted by Mcfasio

Wind turbines are no more of an eyesore than the high voltage powerlines that have crossed our otherwise pristine countryside for decades.

Attachment 33227

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Attachment 33228

I'll just leave this here

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Originally Posted by Species8472

The anecdotal part is thw opinion that this makes them okay with having the most expensive electricity in the world. Unless there is some large scale study i don't know about that is opinion and not a fact.

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Well, as was pointed out in the article, with 76% of the population voted in favour of wind power, knowing the costs up front...I think that qualifies as fact.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Well, as was pointed out in the article, with 76% of the population voted in favour of wind power, knowing the costs up front...I think that qualifies as fact.

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I read the article and nowhere does it say that the poll provided the cost up front. It just says 76% prefer wind. No details on poll size or distribution or background information provided to the people polled.

I could conduct a poll and ask people the following:

What would you prefer to drive - A Kia or a Porsche?

Or I could ask the following:

Knowing the capital cost, insurance cost, maintenance cost and fuel costs of a Porshce versus a Kia and given your current income level what would you actually purchase and drive day to day?

Vastly different answers. You are inferring way too much from one sentence in an EU-centric article.

No facts can be inferred from the sentence in that article without a lot more information.

Facts that are non-disputable are:

- Most expensive electricity in the world
- more coal plants and coal mines
- no firm timeline for replacement of coal with renewables

Actually I clicked the link to the "recent poll" but it was all in German - perhaps there is some background info there if you could translate.

Don't bother - ran it through a translator and there are no details on the exact question or method.

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Originally Posted by Species8472

Actually I clicked the link to the "recent poll" but it was all in German - perhaps there is some background info there if you could translate.

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Man you'll argue anything..the poll was done in Sept 2015...and since they have had wind power in Germany since since 1987 (yes 28 yrs) it can be safely inferred that the public knows the cost and still 76% has voiced there approval for it...why argue that point ? ...a trick question ..LOL...

Mcfasio. Do you work for wind company? ;) your location is Kanata, which to me anyways says. A city dweller proponent who thinks they are great. It amazes me how self entered city people are ( and not referring to you specifically). People who live in cities are
the biggest polluters, the largest consumers of power, and more. They want and want and want. So long as other people pay the prices. And it's not your backyard. I had to chuckle at the comparison to hydro towers. :)

While it's virtually impossible to put up wind farms inside urban centres sadly. Here's a novel idea, why don't urban dwellers start paying the price. Maybe Jack hydro rates for certain area codes 30% and reduce rates for those that have to live with them by 50%.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Man you'll argue anything..the poll was done in Sept 2015...and since they have had wind power in Germany since since 1987 (yes 28 yrs) it can be safely inferred that the public knows the cost and still 76% has voiced there approval for it...why argue that point ?

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As long as we maintain good form and remain civil it passes the time - sitting in my truck waiting for the vac truck to arrive.

One can make a poll say anything they want regardless of how many years something has been around. Assuming anything from a number without any background details is bad form and sometimes dangerous. Case in point the US almost nuked Russia when the American early warning system, which they designed, built, and knew inside out, went off due to a solar storm. Stopped by scientists who figured out the whole story and got a reprieve at the 11th hour.

A new study about the placement of windmills around the Great Lakes.

http://www.tillsonburgnews.com/2016/...urbine-setback

They knew about that 10 years ago ! Put the wind farms up and present findings years later. What a joke.

The bribes have been paid. There is no turning back just as Hydro has been sold, rates will never come down again. The Libranos will be re-elected and Wynne will cackle in glee as she continues to wreck the province. With a third of the workforce on the public tab and all their families and union money she is impossible to remove now. Prepare for the worst. Learn to live in an underground cash economy.