Curious to hear reaction to this story.
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/...5x6?li=AAggNb9
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Curious to hear reaction to this story.
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/...5x6?li=AAggNb9
Just what we need, more in-yer-face foolishness to fuel the anti-hunters. That a**hat just set us back about 30 years with this PR disaster. What an arrogant jerk.
How is a spear to the vitals any different than an arrow or a bullet? I see someone who is crazy to get that close but he put the spear in the right place and I could see a large spear like that being a lot quicker of a kill than many broadheads that are openly used today.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I wouldn't worry about the antis.. they'll always be around...whether you hunt ethically or not.
and he harvested it and I'm sire will enjoy eating it... a kill is a kill... the antis will always find things to use against hunters... Is baiting "ethical" - some would strongly argue not... We have to ignore this
Too bad his hunting skills are not matched by an equal or higher IQ.
People should always consider the consequences of their actions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duckbnot
Seems like a foolish way to hunt a bear, but i don't see anything wrong with it, just a big arrow. I think that is a article written by a anti hunter....
this was posted months ago on here.
i think if he practiced and got his technique just right, than what is the difference than using a bow?? However most people are not body-builders and will not be able to put a spear right in the vitals and this encourages copy-cats who will be stalking through the woods under trained with spears trying to stab bears.
that article though.... it is the most anti-hunting toned article i have ever read... i love how they quote animal rights activists as if they are scientists or experts on the subject.
this is a tough one, but from the perspective of PR for hunting (which unfortunately is very important), this is way off the mark. this is not a method of hunting i would get behind, mostly because i do not feel the average person could get good enough to hunt with a spear ethically.
It is called risk assessment, maybe he has a really high IQ and understands that the likelihood of the bear charging him is low and that his mind and body are up to par to react in a situation that may warrant it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasu200
Not a whole lot different than car racing, sky diving or walking across the street for that matter.
Wow you'd think that using a spear to get meat for your family was totally unheard of, eh Pilgrim :)
This is no different than using a bow. The difference is the way the article is written. Media at its finest......again !
Funny antis always say guns arent fair.. you would think that a spear is about is as "traditional" as u can get. I dont see an issue with using a spear, i wouldnt but more power to him.
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I don't have the answer to this, and don't have the time right now to check, is it legal there?
So that's my first question. Because it wouldn't be legal in Ontario.
My second statement, is that if his outfitters were aware of this (whether legal or not) i do not believe they should continue having the privilege of being an outfitter. Allowing a guest within that range of bears and then throwing a spear without a firearm as back up is unnecessary and incredibly dangerous. As an outfitter myself i would have never let this hunt happen in this way whether legal or not. It's simply idiotic and at the very least risks your customer as well as your entire livelihood were something to go wrong at such close unprotected range.
\Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
My issue is NOT with the method he used to kill the Bear. It's with the decision to record,then publicize, a hunt that went horribly wrong by any standard of the ethics of a quick,clean kill that all of us,as hunters,aspire to,then,adding insult to injury by acting like an total immature a**hole after the fact like he'd done something heroic on the video. I think he needs a kick in the berries....more than once,for his appalling conduct.
I absolutely agree,but,deliberately feeding the anti-hunting/animal rights rhetoric,to me,is just plain stupidity on a grand scale.Quote:
Originally Posted by Splaker
I don't see a link to the Youtube Video. in the OP article...this is it;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V460NAao7wA
You nailed it IMOQuote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I agree that this should be put in the same class as someone who uses a compound bow for big game on an evening hunt.... A rifle is the only safe, humane way to do it....
I believe this is legal in some states in the USA. If done right I don't see the issue.
Well things will change now..LOL...
Quote:
The Alberta government has condemned a controversial hunting practice after a U.S. hunter posted a YouTube video that shows him killing a bear using a spear.
The video, posted in June, shows Josh Bowmar, a personal trainer and former competitive javelin thrower, hitting the bear with the hand-thrown spear. It's believed the video was shot in May northeast of Edmonton.
"The type of archaic hunting seen in the recently posted video … is unacceptable," Alberta's Ministry of Environment and Parks said in a written statement. "We will introduce a ban on spear hunting this fall."
The department has also directed fish and wildlife officers to investigate to see if charges are warranted under existing laws.
Conservation groups press for change
"We've got at least one hunter that has come up here and wanted to hunt by use of a spear, so now it means we're going to have to address it by way of policy," said Wayne Lowry, president of the Alberta Fish and Game Association, a conservation group that consults with government on its regulations.
Wind-up
As the black bear approaches food left as bait, Bowmar winds up to throw his spear. (YouTube)
He said the 2016 regulations that came into force in July should prevent spear hunting by applying strict definitions as to what constitutes a weapon. But he admitted the lack of a specific ban could make the regulation a grey area. At the time the video was recorded, there was no law in place preventing spear hunting.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...pear-1.3722070
and a comment from the Hunter.....
Quote:
Bowmar told The Canadian Press in an email he was surprised by the reaction to the video. He said spears have been used for hunting since the “dawn of man” and the notion that the method is inhumane “couldn’t be further from the truth.”
He said the spear blade he used was 13 centimetres wide and about 40 centimetres long and penetrated the bear more than 60 centimetres deep.
“The bear I speared only ran (55 metres) and died immediately, that’s as humane and ethical as one could get in a hunting situation on big game animals. Trust me, no one cares more about these animals than us hunters, especially me,” he wrote.
He also said the animals he hunts are not wasted.
“In fact, it is even against the law to waste the animals hide … We also eat the meat from our harvested animals including bear. On top of tasting amazing, it’s extremely nutritious for our bodies.”
First off have you ever watched a hunting show? When they scream and yell for "nailing" that buck that they hit too far back and have to wait 24 hours before tracking.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
This was a heck of a lot more ethical than many of the shows that a lot of people here rave about.
The guy was a competitive javelin thrower and he has many videos showing him practicing with the spear, making that shot over and over again. I saw that this is a lot more ethical than many hunters out there, you know the guys, the ones who pull the rifle out on the friday before the hunt, realize that they do not know where their ammo is, go grabs a box of whatever is in stock and refuse to shoot it to sight it in because "it was good last year and I don't want to spook the deer".
If you can hit your target every single time what does it matter what you are using, a massive spear tip to the vitals is a lot more ethical than many spray and pray guys out there.
I find all the yelling and jumping around after a kill, a bit much. I think that only adds fuel to the anti's fire ! Some I find downright disturbing !
Our neanderthal ancestors are rolling in their graves right now and laughing at this donkey trying to justify his inhumane and childish ambitions....and I quote: "some days you eat the bear and somedays well...the bear eats you" hopefully this guy smartens up before the latter for his sake. He should be fined and banned from hunting. Compĺetely irresponsible. How many bears did he wound before he got the one in a million shot....hmmm
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What about bow hunting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Wrastler
Bingo! Besides believing we should never publish a hunt unless all conditions are pristine with a perfect one-shot clean kill,showing irreverence and disrespect by acting like some macho juvenile a**hole only serves to inflame public sentiment and bias against hunters. Some things are best kept to ourselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
bowhunting is bowhunting. he is killing bear using illegal techniques. why dont we all just dig huge pits in the ground with bamboo spears at the bottom and push animals into them...sure itll kill a bear or any big game but probably a silly idea among being illegal.
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agreedQuote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
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Really ?? ...the article says it was legal...Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Wrastler
Quote:
But he admitted the lack of a specific ban could make the regulation a grey area. At the time the video was recorded, there was no law in place preventing spear hunting.
I remember being hauled over the coals for making that same argument for the video by the numbnuts who shot (muliple times) the Polar bear and then cheered as it rolled down the hill.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Sometime I have to question some of the memberships of this Hunting Fraternity..:)
IIRC,it turned out that video had been photo-shopped and edited by animal rights groups. This one,not so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I must have missed that part...never would have thought that is legalQuote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntnmachine
Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I agree 100% and now we see the fall out from the Provincial Government more regulations.
I haven't re-watched this video since I read that article yesterday but in either this video, or the one of his wife shooting the bear with her bow they leave the bear overnight as the guy quotes its dangerous to tack bears in the dark..... which I found to be absolutely hilarious considering he just ran up to a bear and speared it . . .
There used to be videos on youtube of other guys spear hunting bears in Alberta. They would have their tree stand in the same tree the bait was attached too. When bear comes in they literally dropped the spear on the bear.
A lot less people were anti chicken, cow, calf or foie gras....until videos started showing up, and people had to watch where their food came from. Look how many teen vegetarians there are now. This is the same.
Sometimes ignorance is bliss. Yes, he's and idiot for posting it, but not for killing a bear with a spear.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...pear-1.3722070
The Alberta government has condemned a controversial hunting practice after a U.S. hunter posted a YouTube video that shows him killing a bear using a spear.
The video, posted in June, shows Josh Bowmar, a personal trainer and former competitive javelin thrower, hitting the bear with the hand-thrown spear. It's believed the video was shot in May northeast of Edmonton.
"The type of archaic hunting seen in the recently posted video … is unacceptable," Alberta's Ministry of Environment and Parks said in a written statement. "We will introduce a ban on spear hunting this fall."
The department has also directed fish and wildlife officers to investigate to see if charges are warranted under existing laws.
Conservation groups press for change
"We've got at least one hunter that has come up here and wanted to hunt by use of a spear, so now it means we're going to have to address it by way of policy," said Wayne Lowry, president of the Alberta Fish and Game Association, a conservation group that consults with government on its regulations.
http://i.cbc.ca/1.3722297.1471303562...00/wind-up.jpg As the black bear approaches food left as bait, Bowmar winds up to throw his spear. (YouTube)
He said the 2016 regulations that came into force in July should prevent spear hunting by applying strict definitions as to what constitutes a weapon. But he admitted the lack of a specific ban could make the regulation a grey area. At the time the video was recorded, there was no law in place preventing spear hunting.
In the video, Bowmar was accompanied by Swan Hills outfitters John and Jenn Rivet and carried a two-metre spear equipped with 40-centimetre blade. A large black bear was drawn to the area through what is known as bear baiting, where food is placed near a waiting hunting party. That activity is also legal in Alberta.
"He's going down, I drilled him perfect," Bowmar joyously exclaims after the spear lodges in the bear's side. "That was the longest throw I thought I could ever make."
For added effect, a GoPro camera mounted on the spear captured the moment of impact.
"I just did something that I don't think anybody in the world has ever done, and that was spear a bear on the ground, on film," Bowmar says on the video.
Clean kill or unnecessary suffering?
The hunting party left the area afterward, due to darkness and rain, Bowmar later says. The next morning they returned and found the bear dead, about 50 metres from where it had been hit.
In a statement to CBC News, Bowmar said the bear "died immediately," adding the kill was "as humane and ethical as one could get in a hunting situation on big game animals."
Lowry disagrees. He said his organization was trying to get the government to outlaw spear hunting long before the Bowmar video surfaced.
"Since we want to promote the most ethical means of harvesting an animal as possible, I highly doubt that it's going to be a legal way of hunting in the future."
He said his primary objection to spear hunting is the risk that an injured animal could run off and suffer for an extended period. He admitted those risks also exist with other forms of hunting.
http://i.cbc.ca/1.3722300.1471303672...300/bowmar.jpg Bowmar turns to the camera and raises his arms in celebration after his spear hits the black bear. (YouTube)
British tabloids and online discussion groups have been quick to condemn not just the method of killing the bear, but also Bowmar's enthusiastic approach in the video. After spearing the bear he seems giddy about his success.
"That's going to be some epic footage," he proclaims to the camera. "Yeah, I got mad penetration. That's a dead bear."
The headline in U.K.'s Daily Express read: "Warped Hunter Kills Starving Bear with Seven Foot Homemade Spear."
The Mirror headline was: "Hunters in Sick New Low as Black Bear is Stabbed with 7 ft Spear then Left to Die."
Lowry was more tempered in his criticism. "There's much more ethical and effective means of harvesting an animal."
This doesn't surprise me,in the least. British attitudes towards hunting and animal rights is completely FUBAR,anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Who cares what the British think?
That whole country is run by the tabloid's and Coronation Street!
They sure helped us with our fur industry.
Just "bloody awful"
It's kinda funny for many years I have read anti's saying your going to hunt be a man and use a spear. Now someone does it and they get upset.
As for the fella being happy about killing his bear, I don't see an issue with that.
A rifle isn't the be all and end of all of hunting. There have been plenty of circumstances where big game has been lost because of a bad shot with any type of hunting tool.Quote:
Originally Posted by patvetzal
Now onto this circumstance. I am not 100% certain what the problem is for a lot of guys. This guy is accomplished with the weapon he chose to kill the bear with (NCAA athlete whose sport was javalin), he didn't break any laws (the type of weapon, baiting the bear, etc) to harvest the bear, he certainly used his equipment within it's operational limits (10 to 12 meters from the bear and he got about 60cm (over 1/2 a meter) penetration) and there is evidence the animal died quickly (shot was in the vitals, short recovery distance). So why are guys on this forum condemning this hunter because he is using a technique of killing an animal which is different but as effective as an accepted form of hunting by hemorrhaging (bowhunting)? Using terminology such as "archaic" and "brutal" can too easily be used to describe any form of hunting by anyone who disagrees with hunting (or a form of hunting).
Rather than acknowledge how skillful this guy needed to be to kill his bear (simply getting that much penetration for example requires a heck of a throwing arm), he is getting ripped apart by his own fraternity because he didn't use a "traditional" way to hunt. These same people have no problem with bowhunters who kill their animals in the same way (hemorrhage). That is hypocritical way to apply your hunting ethics (my way of making an animal bleed to death is vastly superior to your method of making an animal bleed to death).
As always the litmus test for an "unconventional" style of hunting should be: a) was there a fair chase to the hunt, b) did the hunt follow all hunting laws and regulations (and no regulation involving the type of tool used doesn't mean illegal), and c) was the animal killed in a humane way? (I didn't put a condition about consuming the meat because there are a few species we hunt where we don't have to worry about meat spoilage) Since it seems those conditions have been met, I would say that there is no reason to condemn this guy for his approach to bear hunting.
Dyth
You could go and wrestle a bear to death (or any animal) and the anti's would be upset. It isn't the method which gets them angry it is the end result.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Are you insinuating there is something wrong with Corrie Street? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
Well put..there are always going to be those that because they don't agree, they think it's wrong...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
I only wish more guys would put some thought into the sensibilities of the general public when they post these videos...you might be right, legal and happy with your performance, but knowing there are who oppose hunting in general, why put it out there and give them a forum for their condescending voices to be heard (seen).
Every hunter reacts differently when we kill an animal for food. I tend to keep it on the calm side & silently thank the animal for the organic protein it has provided to me & my family. I will never understand the woop-woop I just scored a touch-down reaction that you see on TV hunting shows. But hey we are all unique individuals...
I will counter with this thought. The way we acquire our food will always have critics (either loud or soft spoken). However, how we do this shouldn't be swept into the corner nor hidden (now over-the-top, exuberant celebrations shouldn't be the norm either which I wouldn't consider this to be) least we are accused of having some nefarious or shady methods. Rather than shying away from open criticism, I think we need to embrace it and discuss it. Show people we are not ashamed of what we do and there is nothing wrong with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Hey hands of our Coronation Street where are millions of us in the Coronation Street Nation.Quote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
Keep in mind that killing a bear with a bow is not much different then a spear and if they ban that, then who is to say anti's won't go after bow hunting.
There used to be a tradition of driving thru town after a hunt with your 'kill' strapped over the hood of the truck to display, with pride, your success to the local town folk. It was a time when hunting was better understood/accepted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
Try doing that small gesture now and see how many people get on your case and you'll find yourself at the end of a no win discussion real fast.
I don't know why hunters feel the need to try and 'educate' folks about the sport. Disney has already done the damage that can't be undone. Most guys are ill equipped to approach the subject with enough tact to sway their best argument "you don't need to hunt" without digging the hole deeper.
remember: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." - Mark Twain
Nothing wrong with being excited. I will quit hunting when I get to the point of not being excited and thankful.
Coach used to teach us to "act like you've been here before" when we scored a touchdown. No Motown boog a loo BS, no spiking the football because "it ain't all, or even only about you."
Pretty sage advice in this situation also. Don't flaunt your successes as some won't agree or may wrongly interpret your excitement.
The meat that anties eat committed suicide anyway, so no hypocrisy there..........
That was still being done in NB until just recently. In fact in NB you had to carry it in plain sight or it was a poaching charge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
MikePal,Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I would say most hunters didn't strap animals to the roof (putting it on the hood would limit driver visibility) so much to display the "kill" as to transport. Any of the old photos I have every seen from my grandpa was the animal was on a car. There isn't really any way to transport an animal other than the roof when you have a car (trucks weren't really the vehicles they are now and not a lot of people drove trucks as a passenger vehicle).
I would say there is a massive difference between posting an online video where someone has to search for it (people needed to search for the video) vs displaying an animal by throwing it on the roof (akin to be careful what you look for vs having it shoved down your throat).
Just the same, I am not on a crusade to educate anyone. However, I am not going to hide what I do either. I have nothing to be ashamed of. I am an ethical, law abiding hunter who has no problem discussing with people what I do and I have no issues with speaking with someone who levels criticism against what we do. Sometimes it is a case of "Disney", others have ethical issues with it but in order to get understanding about what we do, communication needs to take place. My neighbor was against hunting. We had a lot of conversations and while there are species he doesn't think should be hunted, he understands that hunting is necessary for a good balanced ecology.
Dyth
The story is on CNN now.
http://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/...orig-vstan.cnn
At one time in Ontario,it was in the old regs that all big game had to openly displayed "for inspection". It may still be required in New York State because my BIL said he got a blast from the State Police for hauling their Deer home in the back of the truck where they said it was "concealed" and ordered them to leave the tail gate open. Different regs for different areas,I guess.
As you mentioned everyone reacts differently when harvesting an animal. I have friends that do the "touch-down" thing and others that barely break a smile. I do believe that some TV show hosts genuinely lose there minds when they harvest an animal.Quote:
Originally Posted by bellerivercrossbowhunter
For those of us that get "Wild TV" on cable watch North American Whitetail co-hosted by Stan Potts, if his reaction to a harvest is acting he missed his calling in Hollywood!
Sorry to get off topic
Well, in the end, this video has caused the cessation of Spear hunting there. Not sure how many people spear hunt, but one ill advised video has done a lot of harm. Rightly or wrongly is as we see it has little bearing. Score one for the Antis, and that really, is all that matters. Could he not have edited out some of the exuberance which paints us as " blood thirsty red necks", or the entrails?
There have been a handful of high profile incidents in the past two years. In each case, it's posting questionable material to social media that creates back lash. We end up doing the Antis work for them. Does anyone think this video will sway a little of the undecided or "I am ok with sustenance hunting" middle toward us. Or potentially push some a little further away.
I don't hide what I do, and post hunting material to Facebook when I get some. Doesn't mean I don't exercise some discretion when I do so. Just as I don't post pics of what my GF and I do behind closed doors. People don't need see it splashed on Social Media to know what occurs.
Until we learn to use it properly it has the power to blow up on us as well.
You bring up some valid points! I have always suspected the anti's for baiting us into a fighting amongst us. In the future maybe we should not respond to the lure that smells like a skunk.............just sayinQuote:
Originally Posted by JBen
It doesn't take an anti to get hunters to fight amongst themselves....this forum has many a good example of animosity toward each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by huntnmachine
Sad but true, point being is that no matter what is said against us or amongst us we need to have as thick of skin as the game we hunt
Dead on, Trimmer21. I'm so weary of these fist-pumping rectums. It's the main reason I don't watch hunting shows on TV - I can't stand the childish "victory" scenes. Unfortunately, a lot of impressionable young hunters lap it up as if this is the way it is supposed to be. If I had pulled any of that kind of crap with my old man I would have got my arse booted over my ears.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
It's a sad thing, this quest for recognition. At the root of it is pure selfishness; no thought at all about how his 15 seconds might affect other people. Give the guy a hero cookie.
That about sums it up Trimmer and Bigbear. We all know the adrenaline flows at the minute of the harvest but out of respect for the animal that video is way over the top. I worry about the backlash from even the non-hunters (which outnumber the antis by a lot). My wife was repulsed by the story and even more so by the video. It just isn't a very humane, efficient way to kill any animal for the average hunter. How many guys will try to trump this feat in some way? When other more efficient humane ways exist to kill a large animal why not utilize them out of respect for the animal? What's next a large sledge hammer as the ego junky is perched in a tree!
Found this video on another site..... not a bear kill but pretty cool if you ask me...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUuV...has_verified=1
Haaaa well said !Quote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
I hate to see the next you tube video, where a hunter using legal hunting methods harvests/kills an animal, abides by all the rules and celebrates, maybe does not? There fore showing no emotion. Imagine the crisis!!! He just killed that animal and show's NO emotion!!!! And then posts it online. And then is attacked by fellow hunters whom feel that although he followed every legal obligation should not have done this or that . The Anttis as everyone here seems to be worried about attach him for showing no emotion.
This like many other hunting forums is becoming a ing session because he or she doesn't hunt how I do.
As hunters or outdoors people or whatever the current term is. Give your head a shake. From the poor guy asking here about party hunting it's a bunch of whiny objective ing!
How about some actual hunting posts not involving your political position or butt hurt view that someone hunts differently than you!
As said before this outdoors forum and many more are turning into "hunters" I use that term lightly by the previous responses into a lets pick out what they did wrong.
Hey maybe a post about hunting where hunters add some feedback and support.
Last time I saw that.....
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well said. I would say the guy in the video is not hunting for the various reasons many of us are regardless of how he tries to justify his actions. He seems more like a base jumping squirrel suit adrenaline junkie than any hunters I know. i think the infamy of his actions were his first priority with hunting being second or not at all. The average hunter would more than likely laugh at the idea of trying to hunt bear with a spear if you asked them to. If that guy needs a challenge he should first try bear hunting without a guide if a challenge is what hes looking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckbnot
I remember, years back, when Paul Henderson popped the winning goal into the net in the Canada/Russian hockey series, I witness a room full of students jumping with celebrator delight.
Adrenalin can lift you to that point, when you witness a remarkable achievement, imagine the pump the actual participants must get in making the moment. Oh hum, an Canadian high-jumper just won Olympic gold in the high-jump, so what. I remember the first deer I shot, my young brother suggested it must have been a very exciting moment. Not really I told him, by the time I’d checked it out to ensure it was a legal animal, having a buck only licence, then deciding on shot placement, moving the scope back from the head to behind the front shoulder, then field dresing it and dragging back to the truck through a mile of Canadian shield terrain, what was there to be excited about. However the moment did eventually arrive when I was driving back from the hats for hide depot, I glanced down at the crest on the hat, and read, ‘BIG GAME HUNTER.’ It was at that moment, the excitement hit me, that I’d graduated from being a small game hunter to a big game hunter. When we mark an achievement in life it’s something to get excited about. I can see how this guy might have had something to be excited about. In javelin throwing the name of the game is who can propel the javelin the farthest. To move from that to a test of accuracy would be an even greater achievement. Now can you imagine what it must of felt like to cross yet a further plateau of throwing a javelin far enough and accurate enough to exact a kill a big game animal. It’s really got to have been a ‘Wow Moment.’ Admittedly it is an achievement that only those who hunt might marvel at. Meanwhile proper hunting ethics should have dictated sparing the non-hunter and more sensitive, of being exposed to the whole ordeal. Leave them to admire the distance to which a javelin may be thrown or how accurately you maybe able to throw it. That you go beyond such, to revel in the javelins real and intended use, it’s better to leave them in blissful ignorance.
You don’t stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
What has happened now after this spear hunter killed a bear and posted it on social media , is that the Gov. of Alberta has passed a law prohibiting the use of spears to hunt big game . according to last nights Nat. News at 11 pm.
I don't think the legislature can pass a law unless it is sitting. Aren't they off for summer break?Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
They should pass a law that anyone that eats meat must kill it themselves.
So while I still maintain this guy hasn't done anything wrong, here is his statement to the media in it's fullest:
I’m rather surprised to be receiving this, but I’d be happy to share with you some facts about this hunt and spear hunting in general. First and foremost, spear hunting gives the animal the greatest chance of escape, considering our ethical killing range is within 10 yards. You mentioned it being inhumane to hunt with a spear? I’m not sure where you’re getting this statement from, but it couldn’t be further from the truth. The spear blade I was using was 5 inches wide and 16 inches long and razor sharp. Not to mention, I got 24 inches of penetration on that bear causing more damage and trauma to the bear than any arrow/broadhead/bullet combination could ever cause.
It is a well known fact from spear hunters across the world, including Tim Wells who has speared over 100 animals to date, a spear will kill an animal twice as fast as an arrow will. Just think about how much larger a blade on a spear is compared to a broad head on an arrow. Normal fix blade broad heads have a 1 inch cutting diameter in width and 1 inch in length. My spear had 5 inches of cutting diameter in width and 16 inches of cutting length. It’s considerably effortless to see why my last statement would be correct. In fact, there a far fewer bears hunted and wounded with a spear versus bears hunted and wounded with a bow and arrow. Statistically speaking, one would argue a spear is more of an ethical, humane weapon to hunt with than a bow.
The Bear I speared only ran 60 yards and died immediately, that’s as humane and ethical as one could get in a hunting situation on big game animals. Trust me, no one cares more about these animals than us hunters, especially me. If I just wanted to kill, why not use a rifle and shoot the animal from 500 yards away with it having no chance to escape. If didn’t care about the humane killing of this bear, why did I spend years preparing and practicing, becoming extremely proficient with a spear to make sure I could harvest this bear ethically? And I’m not alone with caring about animals in fact over 90% of all donated money and time to animal conservation is from hunters. That’s an interesting fact to ponder. The truth is we care more than anyone about these animals.
In closing, you all should be ashamed of yourselves for trying to kill a heritage that has existed for over a million years. Literally, since the dawn of man, the spear has been a vital role in survival. The mere existence of our ancestors relied on the spear. It’s funny because in the 1960s when hunters where trying to legalize bow hunting on big game animals, there was a very similar tune being played then, as there is now with spears. “It’s unethical, inhumane, not accurate enough and not powerful enough to kill big game animals with a bow and arrow” yet look at where we are today. Your last question, you asked what we did with the bears we harvested. We utilized every part of the bears we harvest, In fact, it’s even against the law to waste the animals hide from the animals. We also eat the meat from our harvested animals including bear. On top tasting amazing, it’s extremely nutritious for our bodies. I hope this helps you gain clarity from my side of the hunt, most people with either fear, reject, or dismiss things they don’t understand, I hope you all have a better grasp on this particular hunt now. If there is anything else you can think of, that I can help you with, please feel free to ask.
It is dripping with contempt and arrogance. Not exactly the response which should have gone out from him. While I still support how he hunted, he has just gone from a guy who may have been a bit over exuberant in celebrating to full on d-bag.
There is nothing redeemable about that statement, and it's filled with inaccuracies and outright idiocy.
Legal hunter, yes. Someone that any of us should want as our most vocal and visible member? certainly not... And unfortunately to the world on todays date, that's what he is, our most vocal and visible fraternity member. and it's embarrassing. He's why we have to defend ourselves, idiots like him that make the most noise and scream the loudest.
This is the Gov. Of Alberta , maybe things are run differently there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
Maybe at the Ministerial level it can be done as easy as a just a re-classification in the Hunting Regs as to what are legal weapons in regards to the hunting.
Quote:
The Alberta government said Monday it is currently updating the province’s hunting regulations and promised to introduce a spear ban in the fall.
Good comments from the Rebel:
love the quote:
"The left wing reflex of the NDP to goose step along with their social justice brethren"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed_fPxl2Qgs
And what are you referring to, exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapJack
Thanks
Given that i read this as a serious statement by the hunter, and not at all intentionally hyperbolic. let's start with a few quotes as examples.Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
"Not to mention, I got 24 inches of penetration on that bear causing more damage and trauma to the bear than any arrow/broadhead/bullet combination could ever cause."
- There are plenty of gauge/caliber options that would cause more damage and trauma than this did. His statement is BS.
"a spear will kill an animal twice as fast as an arrow will. Just think about how much larger a blade on a spear is compared to a broad head on an arrow. Normal fix blade broad heads have a 1 inch cutting diameter in width and 1 inch in length."
- Seriously? Do i need to explain the errors in logic here?
"It’s considerably effortless to see why my last statement would be correct"
- This sentence just doesn't make any sense at all, but i can get passed it by reading between the lines.
"The Bear I speared only ran 60 yards and died immediately"
- Again, this makes no sense, if it ran 60 yards, it can't have "died immediately." He's an idiot.
"why not use a rifle and shoot the animal from 500 yards away with it having no chance to escape"
- Now he's lying about rifle hunting and putting it down. As if any animal within 500 yards is an automatic kill like turning on a light. More BS.
"The truth is we care more than anyone about these animals"
- Most of us don't like to hear this, but that's BS too, i have plenty of non-hunting friends that care just as much as i do, or any hunter does. he's trying to make it a "us vs them" thing, and it doesn't have to be that. exaggeration is always a mistake in arguments.
"In closing, you all should be ashamed of yourselves for trying to kill a heritage that has existed for over a million years. Literally, since the dawn of man, the spear has been a vital role in survival. The mere existence of our ancestors relied on the spear"
- This is biggest fallacy that some hunters try and hide behind. Just because something used to happen does not mean it still should, that's not a valid argument. Heritage is important but it doesn't exist in a bubble that protects it no matter what simply for being tradition. more has to go into it.
"spear hunting gives the animal the greatest chance of escape, considering our ethical killing range is within 10 yards"
- compared to what? not compared to using a pig sticker. again he's exaggerating.
I can go on and on, frankly there is barely a sentence in the entire post that isn't defensive, exaggerated, or arrogant...
If he had presented his defence in a different manor i may have been able to stand beside him, but he didn't, he's clearly a fool, and the definition of a meat head. if you want this representing hunting, fishing, or trapping, you're doing us all a disservice. There is no need to hyperbolize, exaggerate, or lie. The truth is a strong enough defence, so why not just use that?
I would have respected him then.
Furthermore, the thousands of pounds of meat him and his wife don't use to feed themselves and their families shows me that this guy can't represent me. i'm a subsistence hunter, trapper and fisherman. this guy kills for thrills then gives the meat away and claims charity. he's the worst kind of vanity hunter. He's killing thousands of pounds of meat a year more than he can use, i can't support that.
there's more bs in this statement than there is truth. which is a shame, because it could have been a great opportunity to state some infallible truths about a spear hunt and hunters in general.
i can write that statement if you want for him, all it takes is removing all of the idiotic filler he put in and sticking to the facts. A smarter person could have made a statement that couldn't be dismissed as bloviated.
I thought his statement was pretty good, fair and accurate.... If you look for fault, you will find it everywhere and with everyone....
I wonder what Steven Rinella will have to say about this.... hes about the most concise, bright and gifted spokesperson we could have for hunting, and he has an opinion on everything. im sure something will pop up on social media shortly..
Legal hunt. Did nothing wrong.
Don't cave to the anti.
I agree...yes he was pretty good and for the most part echoed a lot of what was said in earlier posts on here.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
He is actually right ..I've made very precious, clean, heart shot's on deer that technically killed them instantly and they still ran 50 yds....it's called 'fight or flight reflexes' and happens often....they're dead, just don't know it and keep running.Quote:
"The Bear I speared only ran 60 yards and died immediately"
- Again, this makes no sense, if it ran 60 yards, it can't have "died immediately." He's an idiot.
His behaviour...an idiot..sure I'll agree :)
Fratri,Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
While I understand what he is saying, how he is saying it is more important right now. His actions have been reported worldwide in a not so flattering light. Rather than come across as arrogant with statements like "I hope this helps you gain clarity from my side of the hunt, most people with either fear, reject, or dismiss things they don’t understand, I hope you all have a better grasp on this particular hunt now." (implying stupid on the fault of the media/viewers of the video), he needs to refine them to more humble terms (perhaps "I hope my above statements provide my perspective to everyone on how I view a hunter's role when an animal is hunted and killed (could use the term harvest if he really had to) and to show my behavior was excessive, I do respect the animals I hunt).
Also, the presentation of the email looked like he cooked it up at the gym rather than sat down and thought his statement out. Proper grammar and actually presenting his case in logical manner rather than making four or five points in a paragraph would have made the message more professional rather than having it look like he wrote it on his blackberry at the gym. Also, making valid statements addressing the reason why people are angry would have been more beneficial than making blanket statements (detailed explanation of why hunting with a spear is just as important as bowhunting or firearm hunting rather than blanket statements about hunters having more respect for animals than anyone else or the addition of bear meat being nutritious for our (unsure who he referring to here) bodies).
Dyth
Anyone who says "it was legal" so it's all good, and nothing else matters, just doesn't get it. His actions, though legal are already restricting hunting opportunities and re-writing regulations against hunters. The fact that it's legal is nearly irrelevant.
How we carry ourselves, is as important to our future as obeying the laws.
he has proven himself to be a poor steward, and if he continues to act in this manner he will continue to hurt hunters, but what does he care? he got his hunt, now he's out of Alberta and doesn't care that the laws will change because he has a child's mind. Supporting his actions in the hunt, after the hunt and his words regarding the hunt is idiotic and backwards.
Agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by glen
I think it's the quite the opposite...NOT supporting him as a hunter that has done nothing wrong in regards to the laws, regulations and methods he used is a step backwards for all hunters. As the Rebel video points out, we are losing ground due to the political backlash, not from condemnation from the hunting community.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapJack
...well, that may not be totally true...we seem to have some Benedict Arnolds on here ..LOL..
Well put. Anytime we condemn a hunter who follows all the necessary laws for killing and animal (whether we personally like the way the animal was hunted or not) is a blow to all hunting.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
The blowback on this is huge of course. He isn't using a traditional method of modern hunting to kill a bear and his "celebration" and attitude in the email afterwards wasn't the best way to be viewed by everyone. But the two are mutually exclusive to one another. If you have a problem with the fact he used a spear to kill a bear, you best not bowhunt at all. The death of the animal is done in the exact same manner (hemorrhaging). Would guys have an issue if he did this with a bow? If so, why? Many of the argument "barbaric"/"archaic" were used when bowhunting was trying to become mainstream and nowadays, bowhunting is a perfectly legal, ethical way to hunt an animal.
Exactly. Entirely predictable.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapJack
And the "just don't get it" crowd will ultimately be responsible for (by youtubing, tweeting and means not yet dreamed of) the eventual prohibition of hunting in Western society.
Why is it so hard to differentiate his hunting from the fact that he posted a video of his actions ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigbear
This issue is that some hunters seem to like 'sharing' their hunts, but by doing so they are allowing the general public to better scrutinize what we do. Remember the B.C Grizzly Bear hunt last year..you'd think guys would have learned from that debacle.
It's not about hiding or being embarrassed by what we do...it's about keeping the videos off social media.
It has nothing to do with the hunt itself, he did nothing wrong and we should support him on that...that's what some don't seem to get.
Exactly. Go hunting...use a gun, or a bow and arrow, or a spear, or any other legal means - but STFU and keep it to yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
We don't have to refrain from posting stuff on social media. We ( or some people anyways) need to "clean it up". I've posted all kinds of stuff on FB. What I post is tasteful, and uses some discretion. How many shots do you see in OOD of entrails, or large amounts of blood, etc, etc? More thoughtful of viewers, and less "grandstanding". The fact he didn't edit out some portions speaks volumes imo.
In the end, this is causing us all kinds of grief.
Do I support hunting? Yep, just as I support the clubbing of baby harp seals.
Do I support this individual? No, because like too many he hasn't learned, and the blow back is substantial. Especially given he's American, and it's Albertans paying the price.
First MikePal, Let me say, I think you've hit the nail right on, " [COLOR=#333333]It's not about hiding or being embarrassed by what we do...it's about keeping the videos off social media." It's the best way to show our respect for the non-hunter as well as other more sensitive individuals, who would rather be spared the gory details of the hunt. It does nothing for the activity of hunting, and only provides the animal rights groups with ammunition to swing public opinion in their favour. The best example of that was the cancellation of the spring bear hunt here in Ontario a number of years back. Where the governing party, seeking to win an election, reacted to public opinion which had been inflamed by FETA.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Second you've, now mentioned a B.C. polar bear hunt, of last year, a second time. I remember a video that surface last year but I seem to recall it was a grizzly bear hunt, that an animal rights group was using to pressure the B.C. government into banning grizzly trophy hunting in the province. I think the video was that of a grizzly bear hunt stage in Alaska, and extensively edited, but that didn't really seem to matter. It was somewhat of a damning indictment of trophy hunting and it gain a lot of public attention.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop huntying.
- Gun Nut.
Yes you are right, it was a grizzly, my mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
You would have though with that video and the Cecil debacle, that hunters would stop posting stuff on social media, knowing how it can come back to flame your azz.
I'm with you on that one, I didn't find much BS on his statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
The one account I read stated that's the bears intestines were strung throughout the trees. If factual, this bear in no way died a quick humane death as he's claiming.
Because spearing is a legal method in Alberta does not mean we should automatically support this guy as a hunter. Game laws are continually in flux as harvesting methods are examined for their humaneness. It wasn't all that long ago that an almost total revamping of Ontario's trapping regs were undertaken. Clearly the changes were aimed towards cleaning up the industry standards before the antis had their way.
One of my first thoughts Sawbill. How was it a good "shot", if there are entrails caught on trees ( there were ). And when they roll the bear over, there's more spilling out. The shot ( throw) is close to broadside. It looks good ( entry point). All I can guess is possibly A) deflection off bone which I can see due to lack of kinetic energy or B) jouncing around from running. Either way, it's definitely not a pass through, doubt he got both lungs ( maybe 1) and given it ( the spear) ri pped out its intestines....................?also wonder about spoilage as it sat for already 12-14 hours.
And should add. When they roll the over the would is rather large ( well gee). It looked a little "back" but hard to say as much of that could have been caused when he spear came out. Either way, there no arguing it (somehow) caught and ripped it's guts out.
To keep it simple...there is a whole industry out there that does nothing but strive to develop a broadhead for a bow hunter that will leave the largest possible entree/exit wound to facilitate maximum damage, fast hemorrhaging and a good blood trail.
The fact that the intestines (that were pulled out of the wound when the beer sideswiped a tree and pulled the spear out) were outside the bears body give credit to the fact that the wound was large, a desired result, a good kill shot. The bigger the wound channel the more damage it will do and the faster the animal will die.
I 'm guessing 'cleaning up the industry' to appease the viewers would mean a bloodless kill where the animal drops dead in it's tracks every time..
Aren't 'Bloodless' pics are a requirement on this...a Hunting forum ??
I'm guessing you missed the part where in black and white I typed "B) jouncing around from running) . Reading people's post and understanding that is being acknowledged is pretty simple. So no need for "keeping it simple".
given theres no blood or if there is its minimal from an exit wound. That suggest the spear didn't penetrate all that deeply. At least not straight through. You might also made missed the part where I typed " the shot looks good "entry". So so did it get 1 lung before heading towards the guts? The lack of punch through suggest it didn't get both.
60 yards.
granted I haven't done a lot of bear hunting. But every bear hunt I have been on, and every bear I have seen recovered. Piles up in less than than 30. Whether it was shot with a bow or rifle. In fact, two guides I have used have a rule. If it's not recovered within 25 yards the search is off until morning....wonder why they have that rule?
I think you should re-read your own post JBen....I didn't disagree with you at all. Don't go out of your way to start an argument..again...LOL...Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
Let's keep this simple then Mike.
Dont start replies with "let's keep this simple".
I have seen rifle shot deer running with chunks of bone missing from their shoulders/legs from perfectly good shots. I have seen bow shot deer flopping around and trying to survive after a hit, it happens, hunting is not a lights out thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
I do not get how a massive entry wound and deep penetration is an unethical thing.
If you want to talk about humaneness of this throw then you have to consider any and all shots ever taken on game. This is not a serrated leg hold trap that the animal was left in for days, this was a massive entry wound that the animal could not have lived for minutes.
Isn't that an oxymoron...LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
Smallgamer just posted a new thread on the possibility of shared values by hunters and non-hunters. Everyone posting here should take a look.
Fox, I've seen and heard of deer that run hundreds of yards. I personally haven't seen a bear recovered, if, it's not piled up in under 30. Either way, I don't know how much it matters in this instance. The damage being done is due to all I'll considered video, that leaves the perception in the publics mind. Of both "red neck blood sport" (wonder why) and subsequently an inhumane kill.
Is spear hunting a humane way to hunt?
There is some guy that hunts big game in Africa with spears. The vids he post, don't call it into question, nor do they cause a firestorm with the public.
That is exactly it, it was the fact that it was recorded and put on the internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
I have friends who are bear guides, they hate that guys want to bow hunt, not that it is not a good way to take them but rather that in the fall the fat and fur plugs up the hole and reduces the blood letting out of the body as well as the soft feet do not dig into the ground like a deer hoof would, so tracking them becomes a big problem, good thing they had a great dog.
What I am concerned about is the attack by other hunters, where will this stop? Will bow hunters be next? What about traditional bow hunters? Rifle hunters wound lots of deer and shotgun hunters, should they not be able to use buckshot because some guys shoot it beyond what its effective range is?
I understand that many people could not ethically take a bear with a spear but I do not have that thought with this guy after watching his training videos and learning that he was a trained thrower. Many people should not be in the bush with a traditional bow because they do not practice but should we ban traditional archery because someone took a video of it?
I have seen a lot more bad shots with high powered rifles for deer hunting than bow hunters.
Forgot to mention this. While it doesn't occur all the time and maybe we should be thankful it wasn't heard on tape, because I have no doubt this guy would have kept it in. A bears death moan. I can only imagine how much worse the "backlash" would be, if that had been picked up in the audio.......and it normally occurs very shortly after..........
its absence one way or the other doesn't say a lot, because it's not all the time you hear a "wounded bear crying like a babe for its mom". I wonder why any hunting show I've ever watched edits that out.......but it, (absence iof) like the 60 yards ( maybe not unheard of, but for black bears maybe uncommon). Not saying it wasn't "humane" but there's "circumstantial", enough, to raise the question, even amongst hunters....
5 inch cutting diameter, half a meter penetration, I would be surprised if he didn't hit some intestines but it doesn't mean that he completely missed vital organs. What happens when the bear gets hit, I believe he turns and runs (I have tried to find the full length video to confirm but I am having trouble as the links are now useless). That spearhead will start to move around as the bear moves and runs (Newton's third law: For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction) and the spearhead will start cutting inside and creating an even larger wound so the fact the bear lost some intestine doesn't necessarily negate the spearhead hitting the vital organs.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
If you want to look like a "neanderthal" in 2016, hunt with a spear. If you want your fellow hunters to look like "neanderthal,s" hunt with a spear and then put it on the Worldwide internet.
You then compound this by advertising the "baiting process" on the video and you have successfully added to the ranks of the anti,s.
Why is it ok for a Masai hunter to kill a lion with a spear but a North American hunter does the same with a bear and gets flak?
I guess the general public look at this and say its OK because the Masai hunter probably tracked his animal skilfully over miles of bush and used the only tool he can afford to dispatch the animal,which he will skilfully track and recover and is essential to fed or protect for his family.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
On the other hand the general public might look at the North American hunter as being engaged in a past time that is not essential,
using a spear and putting the animal through unnecessary suffering,when he could have used a rifle.Taking the animal "over bait" which to the general public is seen as cheating and to top it off the "recovery time" and the fact this hunter does not need the meat to sustain himself.
Also the Masai hunter is probably not going into his mud hut in the evening and posting it worldwide.
So you are only allowed to use a rifle? What caliber? 50 BMG to make sure nothing suffers? What happens if you miss slightly and it feels something, go to a bigger rifle?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
It is feeding the beast that wants to get rid of hunting.
It is all about education, the people who want to ban it will spin any hunting into a very painful experience but those people will also do the same thing for a chicken in a pen or a cow in a field.
No, National Geographic used to cover the Maasai hunters. Now you can find a lot of videos of Masai hunters on you tube.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
The Maasai people don't eat game meat. They use 3 parts from the lion and leave the rest (this guy eats the meat). They don't kill the weak or sick lions. They kill the alpha males (unless provoked). I would also venture the spears they use are not anywhere near as large as the one this guy used. They have access to modern technology (some tribes have incorporated industrial technology (which would mean they have access to firearms).
Separating the actions of the hunter post hunt from the hunt itself, why does a hunter who uses a spear in one set of circumstances get a pass (Maasai, I believe the Brazilian Indigenous people still hunt with spears, spear fishing) while another causes people to throw around terms like barbaric and archaic? Moral outrage seems to be a little selective in this circumstance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
The answer it seems is clearly posted on their own [COLOR=#333333] Maasai Association website and I quote as follows:
" [COLOR=#000000] We regret the loss of six cows, seven goats, seven sheep, one donkey and six lions in the outskirts of Nairobi National Park. From our sources the killing of six lions was not done to satisfy a cultural tradition. The herdsmen hunted the lions as an act of revenge for the loss of cattle. It is our hope that Kenya Wildlife Service and the Maasai of Ilkeek-Lemedung'I will meet soon and agree on a lasting solution to avert the loss of precious lions and Maasai cattle in the future. Maasai Association does not support lion hunt.[COLOR=#000000]
http://www.maasai-association.org/lion.html
So it seems the difference is evident the Maasai by hunting with their spears use the traditional tools at hand,show bravery and this is clearly accepted by the general public because they are protecting their cattle and goats from predators.
Your spear hunter is not doing that,he is showing off, trying to make himself somebody to admire and in the course of doing this offends the general public and makes his fellow hunters look bad.
Read the entire website, not just the parts you want to cherry pick:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Why do the Maasai warriors hunt lions?
The Maasai tribe sees lion hunting experience as a sign of bravery and personal achievement. In the past, when the lion population was high, the community encouraged solo lion hunting. However, over the last ten years, due to the decline of the lion population, mainly because of rabies and canine distemper virus, the community has adapted a new rule that encourages warriors to hunt in groups instead of solo lion hunt. Group hunting, known in Maasai as olamayio, gives the lion population a chance to grow.
According to Maasai customary laws, the warriors are not allowed to hunt a lion, suffering from drought, snared or poison. The Maasai believe that females are the bearers of life in every species. As a such, it is prohibited to hunt a female lion-- unless the lioness has posed threat to human or livestock.
The Maasai understands that lions are important to the savanna's ecology and culture. For that reason, the Maasai takes extra caution when it comes to lion hunt. The Maasai warriors do not just go out and hunt lions because they can. The rules are there and are followed by every warrior
Lion hunting experience allows the Maasai warriors to show off their fighting ability on a non-human target. At the end of each age-set, usually after 10-15 years, the warriors must count all the lions hunted, then compare them with those hunted by the previous age-set. The purpose is to compare lion hunting age accomplishment between previous and current age-set.
The disclaimer you put up is denouncing that particular lion hunt as an act of revenge against the lions for raiding livestock, not lion hunting by the Maasai in general. In the passage I put up, the group even claims the lion hunting experience allows the Maasi warriors to show off their fighting ability against a non-human target.
So using the Maasai's own words, they are doing this to show off (they don't even eat the lion per the website's information) but the worldwide reaction to the Maasai isn't as vitriolic than the worldwide reaction to what the bear hunter did. I am not talking about his behavior post hunt, that issue is a separate one. I am talking about why he didn't do anything wrong hunting a bear with a spear. And by the way, he isn't my spear hunter. I have no relationship with this person whatsoever and alluding to one in order to try to cast my debate points in a negative light because of the negative reaction he is getting is an extremely weak tactic. If you want to debate, let your argument stand on it's own merit.
Talk about cherry picking maybe you missed this paragraph LOL
[COLOR=#000000]The lions are abundant throughout Maasailand. Their typical hideouts are grassy plains, deep forests, behind termite mounts, under the acacia trees, and other wild cozy places. The lion search ranges from 20 minutes to 10 hours. The Maasai warriors must chase a lion with rattle bells and make him upset. This chasing method forces a lion to develop anger and face the hunter. Another successful hunting method is to force a lion to move away from the kill. Any of these methods would provoke a fight with a lion. The game between warriors and lions is similar to that of a cat and a mouse.
When you tried to compare a Maasai warrior to this spear hunter I think you already lost the plot.
P.S. Also missed "[COLOR=#000000] Keep in mind that many warriors have been lost to lions." I suppose if this spear hunting takes off we can expect the same number of casualties.
Why do you think I have lost the plot comparing the two of them? They both use spears to kill the animal and that is one of the main reasons why people are upset about this (the other is his attitude).Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
You still haven't answered the question though: why is it ok for the Maasai to use a spear and not this guy? Make sure you judge both hunts with the same criteria. The bear hunter is going to eat the bear, the Maasai don't. The bear hunter used a bait to attract a bear (not illegal or unethical), the Maasai use bells to get the lions to attack them (harassing the animal). The bear hunter uses a superior version of the Maasai spear and is just as effective with it as the Maasai lion hunters. So if you are going to condemn the hunting of one animal with a spear, best be ready to condemn all spear hunting (and spear fishing).
As your causalities comment, do we stop hunters from bowhunting Grizzlys, moose, black bear, wolves, etc from the ground? All of those animals can easily kill a human being (or at least put a hurting on them). So you comment of "someone might get hurt" doesn't apply, no one lives in a bubble. You hunt that way for that species, you take your chances.
He doesn't eat most of what he kills, if you read up more on him, he and his wife say they donate thousands and thousands of pounds of surplus meat to charities, he is hunting WELL beyond what he needs, it's that greed that irks me. If you don't need the meat, then you're doing it for fun. and killing wild game purely for fun, whether legal or not, is not something i can support. and don't tell me he's doing this altruistically, that's just how he gets in the backdoor of the "letting meat spoil" laws, so he can keeping killing for kicks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
and then he lumps us all together, well guess what, i'm not on his team. All muslims aren't ISIS, and all hunters aren't this guy. People like him are why we can't have nice things, no respect, then publicizes his lack of respect for all to see and read.
It seems to me the majority of your posts were ranting against the way he killed the bear rather the quantity of meat he consumed.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapJack
Furthermore, if donating meat that you hunt isn't what you think hunting is or gives hunting a bad name, I would propose nearly every single hunter on here has given hunting a black eye because at some point they have given meat away. When excess deer seals come out, I would buy one more than I figured I would need to try to donate meat to my friend's church soup kitchen in Toronto. I would even take care of having it butchered myself. Is feed people less fortunate than myself giving hunting a bad name? You want to paint this guy with a broad stroked brush and condemn every thing he does without hearing his side of the story or why he does something. Donating meat to others shouldn't be condemned because you don't know what shape those others are in or because you have some misconstrued idea of how hunters should act. I would argue if you have the ability to provide for the less fortunate and show compassion for them, that is being less selfish if you just take for yourself.
I didn't say a single word against the way he killed the bear, try re-reading, and quote something i said against "the way he killed the bear" in context (hint: it doesn't exist) all of my criticism surrounds everything BUT how he killed it. i don't have a problem with him spear hunting a bear legally in Alberta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
You really do struggle with reading comprehension don't you. i didn't condemn donating meat, we all end up with some excess at times, or know people that need help. My point was that in HIS PARTICULAR circumstance, he is simply using that as an excuse to travel the world thrill hunting. Don't pretend that you taking an extra deer for starving friends is the same as what he is doing, the difference is intent, he doesn't do it for people that need meat like you or i, he does it so he has an excuse to go kill in "new cool ways, and kill new exciting new animals" there is a massive difference. and i have stated that clearly, your'e the one painting with broad strokes by associating anything i said with being "anti-meat donation" or whatever BS you tried to spin it towards. i'm saying he's a slick rick loser that's skirting laws so he can thrill kill by leaving "thousands and thousands of pounds a years" (his words) to whatever local group will pick it up once he's done with his adrenaline rush. If the popular vote is yours, then hunting is doomed. this guy is bad for business.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
5 out of 8 complaints in your initial post complain in one form or another about his use of the spear.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapJack
Try reading again, my comments are about HIS STATEMENTS on using a spear, not about using a spear in general. Now you're going to scoff at that, but it's a fact. which 5? tell me what i'm missing, i'm simply criticizing his statements on spear hunting, i'm not criticizing spear huntingQuote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
No I don't struggle with reading comprehension. But you seem to think you know why he gives meat away. There is nothing wrong with giving meat away and continuing to hunt. He buys his tags/seals just like everyone else and he has a right to fill those tags. If you don't like the game, change the rules, don't grief the players. Don't to push your ethics on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapJack
You say he is skirting the law. How exactly is he doing it? Give specific examples and buying more than one tag if that is an option falls within the law. You don't like the fact he kills more than one bear or he takes what you deem to be too much meat. Too bad. Your likes or dislikes are irrelevant as long as he is following the law. That is what you seem to be unable to comprehend.
The caliber comment, the killing the animal with a spear is twice as fast as arrow comment, the couldn't have died immediately comment, the tradition comment and the pig sticker comment. All of those comments at the time is a criticism of spear hunting. Now you are saying you were commenting on his statements. Ok. Sure. If you say so...Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapJack
It's clear you're not willing to listen to anything anyone says, or maybe simply not capable...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
so i will respond to ONE of your points, and then i'm moving on, it's not worth my time to point out every way you're wrong with regards to everyone of my statements, one example should suffice in representing the general idiocy you're spouted.
so let's use the first point you brought up, caliber.
"Not to mention, I got 24 inches of penetration on that bear causing more damage and trauma to the bear than any arrow/broadhead/bullet combination could ever cause."
- There are plenty of gauge/caliber options that would cause more damage and trauma than this did. His statement is BS.
FIRSTLY, you said "Now you are saying you were commenting on his statements. Ok. Sure. If you say so..." ACTUALLY i was CLEAR about that form the beginning, i even ended my FIRST point with "his statement is BS"
Reading comprehension... what a chore...
now tell me what about my statement was anti spear? all i did was defend guns as "not inferior" to spears, as he had stated... how is defending guns, the same as hating on spears? want another hint??? it's not the same at all!
Have a great day... i don't have anymore time for your warped view, you sound like Hillary... it's a waste of time...
You want an explanation about your comments. You state there are plenty of options which (you actually use that) would cause more damage and trauma than this did. This statement implies to the reader it is your opinion that a spear is inferior to firearms. You want to speak about my reading comprehension, let's try to work on your writing skills shall we?Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapJack
You don't want to continue the debate. Fine. Your choice. No one pointed a gun at your head to join the conversation.
You want to take a parting shot likening me to Clinton. Your choice as well. Good form by the way. When someone doesn't agree with you, take your ball and go home. Off you go.
R.Absolutely agree you take your chances so lets hope the next time we see this character is on the hot African plain,with bells on,sweating it out over a 10 hour hunt,with just a spear in hand,avoiding all the other animals that might kill him.Then he throws his spear at an ALERTED big male lion,that decides its not turning tail and we get to see the results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
No problem for the antis or most of the other viewing audience as the wounded lion tears him apart on camera,everybody has a good chuckle and says in unison,serves his right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
I'm going to agree with Dyth..nothing personal, but your original post was written in a way that suggests that your were against the use of a spear over other weapons of choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
It isn't hard to draw the conclusion,it's wasn't a comprehension issue.
My comments are in bold.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
[COLOR=#333333]"My comments are in red."
They should be in red as your whole comparing the Maasai to this character is a "red herring" IMHO.
[COLOR=#333333]"Again you are confusing the issue here. The issue isn't the bear or the bait, it is the spear. If you think it is, you should start advocating for the removal of the bear hunt."
Dont think so the general public are upset at both the use of the spear and the bait.
The whole point your MISSING is that the way the Maasai hunt will continue unabated while this hunters actions have already impacted the hunting community in North America.You can believe this or stay comfortable in what ever way you want to be with your own beliefs.
Only comparing them because they both use spears to kill animals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
It has to be about the spears. The Alberta government is not scrambling to change the bear baiting laws, they are scrambling to outlaw spears. If it was about the baiting, Notley would be announcing banning baiting. Has statement come from Alberta about baiting? Has any Alberta politician denounced baiting?
Of course the Maasai will continue unabated because of people's perspective of what constitutes barbaric, not because of any real logic. A spear is a spear. If it is barbaric and archaic to use a spear to kill one animal, it stands to reason killing all animals with a spear is barbaric and archaic. But no one is denouncing the Maasai for doing it. It is a marvelous double standard, isn't it?
I have to go out and get some more [large size ] "popcorn".:D
ahhh human bait.....should be outlawed at a theatre :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
OR, in the case of the Masai hunter, he has a limited tool-chest (a spear and a shield) to choose from, unlike the North American hunter, who has a number tools to exact a clean kill, and is govern by a regulated hunt, requiring him to use an appropriate tool (and hopeful have a level of consistence in using it) to do the job proficiently. Also the taking of a lion by a Masai hunter, is seen as a right to passage, and so takes on the mantle of a life and death struggle to prove one's manhood. It's not a quest to provide food for one's table, or trophy rug for one's den. It is a traditional aboriginal rite, an to it, the initiate must bring his short lifetime of training and skill, in order to meet the challenge. His success gains for him, his entry into manhood, and the respect of his tribe.You might only imagine what failure could end up yielding. Once he has gain the respect of his tribe it ends, there is no necessity of making a show of it for a world audience.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
I would stay clear of an i*iot like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by duckbnot
I don't give a rats what antis say or animal rights groups like SPCA's but I do care what fellow hunters say and most are disgusted with this guy and his hunt antics.
I went to visit some family in the GTA yesterday, (non hunters).... It was good to see them...... During our conversations, (trying to catch up on what has taken place in our lives since we last seen each other)....I asked if they heard about the bear spear hunter, they all said no, why what's up?......
So maybe the common family working guy/girl is too busy trying to get through the day to give a rats .... (let it go)
You nailed it Trimmer21. Hunt within the law any way you want, but leave the videos for your own private viewing. As mentioned earlier, I don't understand peoples' need to post everything they do online.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Yes, we should hide our sport in the closet. Take it off the internet, off the television, off the magazine racks. What if an anti-hunter finds this forum? We should probably shut down this site too, just to be safe. Opening day is around the corner. Let's make sure no one posts any successful hunt pics/videos on here. Keep those to yourselves for private viewingQuote:
Originally Posted by delmer
I was talking specifically about the spearing video. I wasn't very clear in my wording.Quote:
Originally Posted by LowbanksArcher
I just feel it's a slippery slope once you start censoring our sport. Now spears. Next arrows. Videos of a bear running off with an arrow in it will be just as offensive to the bleeding hearts of social media. This is just the tip of the spear. [emoji6]Quote:
Originally Posted by delmer
I created a new thread about this topic, but i'll make the statement here too. it appears that this hunt was entirely illegal from the get-go.
the Alberta regs state very clearly that there are only two legal hunts for bear in alberta, and neither allow for spears, they are clear in exactly what you can legally use. and a spear doesn't qualify as a firearm, cross-bow, or bow and arrow according to their definitions. So he was never legal at all.
"1- Archery Only Seasons are those where only a bow and arrow may be used to hunt.
2- General Seasons are those where either a firearm, cross-bow or a bow and arrow may be used."
There's a huge difference between censoring something and simply keeping one's mouth shut.Quote:
Originally Posted by LowbanksArcher
So, should I take my archery bear hunt video off YouTube? It's no different really.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
What I just don't get - and maybe it's because I'm an old fart - is this desire for recognition that seems to be behind facebook, youtube, etc. I just never had the urge in my life to do that. I'm very, VERY happy if no one knows what I'm up to. That way, I can't unintentionally hurt myself, or, anyone else.