Bringing 4 month old pup hunting?

Hey folks,

I've got a 4 month old ESS named Townes

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...psdgso4htz.jpg

Besides sleeping in the boat, he loves retrieving and has pretty much mastered "Come" and "Sit". I bought him with the intent of being a hunting dog, but am just wondering if at 4 months I'd do more harm than good bringing him out? He's been exposed to gunfire (from the breeder) and it doesn't seem to bother him.

I'd bring him out with no expectations and no gun, just focus on handling him. On one hand, I don't think the experience would hurt at all, but wondering what you guys and gals think?

Thanks,

Cory

Too early. My new ESS pup is 16 weeks today, & no way would I take her hunting this fall.

It's a situation where you have no control over the scenario with an utterly green dog. Also, whatever the breeder did with intro to gunfire surely did not involve a 12 gauge.

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Originally Posted by KonaBoy

... with no expectations and no gun, just focus on handling him. ...

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that certainly is a good approach in general, but the dog doesn't appear ready to hunt quite yet.
therefore, the question is what do you envision when you say "hunting". making a dog gunshy is a real concern and it may not take much to do that. I would not rely on someone telling me that a little pup had proper gun introduction. welsh is correct, when hunting you typically cannot control the shooting, being anywhere close to the shooters is really a bad idea.
also will you or your buddies accept the dog spoiling the hunt, which is not overly unlikely?
on the other hand, being a bystander (really far away) and meeting up after the shooting is over, might not be such a bad idea.

Cory.....bad news to even think about it. You'll do far more harm than accomplish any good.
To begin with ...'Pretty much' doesn't buy you much as far as basic obedience goes and wait for the guns to go off and see how much obedience your dog doe not have.

I have a 4 month currently, he knows his name, sits on command, has started to sit on the whistle and comes on 'here'. He'll retrieve bird/bumper on land /water to probably 75 yards or so if simple. I wouldn't even dream about taking him hunting.

I suggest you find a sound program of 'basics' and take your dog through them. Consider collar conditioning and force fetch regardless if he is an upland or waterfowl dog. Take a look at how you teach a dog to handle such that birds not seen can be retrieved.......the list goes on.

One note of caution, you mention the breeder exposed to gunfire. There is a universe of difference between that and a dog that is steady etc under gunfire immediately around him.

Perhaps you can find some others training in your area....nothing like being with those who are currently training.

I am not sure what kind of hunting you plan to do with your dog but if you are going to hunt grouse I would be taking your dog in the woods and letting them find birds. I will have a 4 month old pointer this fall and he/she will be coming in the woods with me to find and chase birds. While in the woods I will fire a blank pistol at all bird contacts. Young dogs need wild birds if they are going to grow into wild bird dogs.

Just some clarification....I totally agree with Jake's comments in that situation...exploration etc. My comments were about developing a process if the dog will be shot over with the expectation of retrieving. It is in that context that the careful development of 'The Basics" exist and should be developed.

There's another fellow around here that I guided through the basics with his English Cocker. He can chime in with the effective ness of that approach.

Just a caveat around blank pistols, although not as loud in a blunt way they are very sharp, sometimes too sharp so a word of caution around how you use them with young dogs and how closely used.

Agree Jakezilla/Krakadawn using a starter pistol. Early training with my pup included firing off a starter pistol when in contact with birds at a long distance as well as firing it off in my training carry bag to eliminate the sharp sound. Eventually the starter pistol was fired outside of the bag, later a .22 was introduced then a 20 gauge over a period of months.

Hey folks,

Sorry, have had computer issues and just getting a chance to read these now.

For clarification on the exposure to gunfire, when I picked him up from the breeder, he said that he'd fired a shotgun at squirrels and the pups mainly lived outside. I've fired a .22 (shorts) around him when I've thrown the dummy/bumper a few times and he didn't seem bothered by it.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Too early. My new ESS pup is 16 weeks today, & no way would I take her hunting this fall.

It's a situation where you have no control over the scenario with an utterly green dog. Also, whatever the breeder did with intro to gunfire surely did not involve a 12 gauge.

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Not trying to argue and after reading decided that he's not coming out in the blind with me, but what situations can happen that I can't control? Just curious.

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Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

that certainly is a good approach in general, but the dog doesn't appear ready to hunt quite yet.
therefore, the question is what do you envision when you say "hunting". making a dog gunshy is a real concern and it may not take much to do that. I would not rely on someone telling me that a little pup had proper gun introduction. welsh is correct, when hunting you typically cannot control the shooting, being anywhere close to the shooters is really a bad idea.
also will you or your buddies accept the dog spoiling the hunt, which is not overly unlikely?
on the other hand, being a bystander (really far away) and meeting up after the shooting is over, might not be such a bad idea.

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I mainly hunt with my Dad (who thinks the world of the little guy). The bystander idea I think could work out this fall. I was thinking I'd start like that anyways.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Cory.....bad news to even think about it. You'll do far more harm than accomplish any good.
To begin with ...'Pretty much' doesn't buy you much as far as basic obedience goes and wait for the guns to go off and see how much obedience your dog doe not have.

I have a 4 month currently, he knows his name, sits on command, has started to sit on the whistle and comes on 'here'. He'll retrieve bird/bumper on land /water to probably 75 yards or so if simple. I wouldn't even dream about taking him hunting.

I suggest you find a sound program of 'basics' and take your dog through them. Consider collar conditioning and force fetch regardless if he is an upland or waterfowl dog. Take a look at how you teach a dog to handle such that birds not seen can be retrieved.......the list goes on.

One note of caution, you mention the breeder exposed to gunfire. There is a universe of difference between that and a dog that is steady etc under gunfire immediately around him.

Perhaps you can find some others training in your area....nothing like being with those who are currently training.

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I have been reading about FF'ing the dog and am considering it. I have a good friend who's trained a few of labs who has been giving me tips as well.

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Originally Posted by Jakezilla

I am not sure what kind of hunting you plan to do with your dog but if you are going to hunt grouse I would be taking your dog in the woods and letting them find birds. I will have a 4 month old pointer this fall and he/she will be coming in the woods with me to find and chase birds. While in the woods I will fire a blank pistol at all bird contacts. Young dogs need wild birds if they are going to grow into wild bird dogs.

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I'm hoping he can do double duty on upland and waterfowl. I've had him in the bush since I've had him and he's no stranger to finding grouse and (at least IMO) realizes that's a good thing.

I think I replied to everyone, sorry if I missed anyone.

I think this fall he'll just be the bystander (a distance away) and come after the shooting is over. Does that seem right? I really don't want to rush the dog, but it's also tough to leave him at home when I go out.

Cory

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Originally Posted by KonaBoy

Not trying to argue and after reading decided that he's not coming out in the blind with me, but what situations can happen that I can't control? Just curious.

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In a blind, not so much, though you may struggle to keep him still in when birds come in ... and he'd be that much closer to the gun.

I was thinking more upland scenarios. You don't know where birds are going to be and can't control the dog when they flush, may have problems with uncontrollable chasing. The dog may get excited after finding birds and end up working out of range. Etc. This is why in training spaniels for upland hunting you want to lay in good basics before getting them in the field.

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I'd bring him out hunting for sure. Just use your head, be safe, keep expectations low, have fun, get some exercise and off leash training. Short hunts with just you and him. Use a .22 or .410, shoot rarely.
I wouldn't waste a season, I'd get him on birds, it's a flushing breed.

You're dog is 4 months old now but by mid season it's a 6 month old dog and quite a bit of development can accumulate. I would just be very specific in where I hunted him. Grouse cover is typically tight and good woodcock cover even more so. Hard to beat a good woodcock flight to train a bird dog. I would not take him duck hunting at that age. First that might just be too much gunfire as that high speed steel shot barks pretty loud and secondly he will move around so much he will likely spook game. Just my opinion. You have been given some advice above from some very experienced dog trainers for free. Take notes. Great looking pup by the way.
i see you live in Atikokan. I used to hunt moose out that way and you live in bird "Mecca".

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Originally Posted by Mount Sweetness

I'd bring him out hunting for sure. Just use your head, be safe, keep expectations low, have fun, get some exercise and off leash training. Short hunts with just you and him. Use a .22 or .410, shoot rarely.
I wouldn't waste a season, I'd get him on birds, it's a flushing breed.

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I can't buy that, you're not wasting a season, you're laying the proper groundwork for later. Expectations and safety will both be very low as in low level for sure. How do you control him when a bird is flushed?

He hasn't been collar conditioned yet either......so much to do......

Terrym's suggestion are sound.

Not sure how I missed this thread. I'm the Cocker guy alluded to earlier in this thread. I did hunt my dog the first season but he was a January pup so he was 9-10 months old at the time and had been through gun and collar conditioning and force fetch. The basics can not be skipped if you want a flusher that you can enjoy hunting behind instead of one that stresses you out and has you yelling more than shooting. I would certainly take him for runs in the woods but as far as formal hunting I would not push that at all with such a young pup. My bird numbers are low (less simulation in the beginning), he had the basics and he was not a 4 month old pup. I left waterfowl till the following year when he was almost 2 years old to ensure those basics were ingrained when there was more stimulation- more birds, more shots, more dogs and more people hunting. Take him for walks and get him accustomed to cover. If he bumps a bird great. If not, he's still learning valuable lessons. But make sure the focus is on teaching the basics. That is in no way a waste of a season - you'll have many more to come and you'll enjoy them more with a trained dog.

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Originally Posted by terrym

You're dog is 4 months old now but by mid season it's a 6 month old dog and quite a bit of development can accumulate. I would just be very specific in where I hunted him. Grouse cover is typically tight and good woodcock cover even more so. Hard to beat a good woodcock flight to train a bird dog. I would not take him duck hunting at that age. First that might just be too much gunfire as that high speed steel shot barks pretty loud and secondly he will move around so much he will likely spook game. Just my opinion. You have been given some advice above from some very experienced dog trainers for free. Take notes. Great looking pup by the way.
i see you live in Atikokan. I used to hunt moose out that way and you live in bird "Mecca".

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That's my thinking never to young to get a pup in the woods. As long as you remember your focus is on training not shooting.
First contact
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/...psar7g7bny.jpg

eventually leads to handling well enough pen pheasants, woodcock, and grouse equally well.

http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/...pszahg2x42.jpg

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Originally Posted by Cass

The basics can not be skipped if you want a flusher that you can enjoy hunting behind instead of one that stresses you out and has you yelling more than shooting.

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Yup. Again, I have a 17-week-old (as of today) Springer. She won't be hunting this season, because she won't be ready.

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Also remember at that tender age the growth plates haven't fully matured yet/closed and you shouldn't be hunting such a young pup continuously for long stetches at a time so not do damage its joints.
Also, the puppy hasn't been physically conditioned to hunt long periods of time, so short meaningful outings are better than long meaningless ones where the pup is put to the point of fatigue.
Sure the pup has energy to burn, but doesn't need to at 4mths old be beating the bush for 3+ hours straight all the time.
Let puppy enjoy the bush and what he finds this fall and focus on a successful next year.

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Originally Posted by maplevizsla

Also remember at that tender age the growth plates haven't fully matured yet/closed and you shouldn't be hunting such a young pup continuously for long stetches at a time so not do damage its joints.
Also, the puppy hasn't been physically conditioned to hunt long periods of time, so short meaningful outings are better than long meaningless ones where the pup is put to the point of fatigue.
Sure the pup has energy to burn, but doesn't need to at 4mths old be beating the bush for 3+ hours straight all the time.
Let puppy enjoy the bush and what he finds this fall and focus on a successful next year.

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Well said.