Liberals promise 8% cut to hydro bill, and 20% if you're rural!

Celebrate!

TORONTO - The Ontario Liberals have decided a hydro rebate was a good idea afterall.
In Monday's throne speech, the Kathleen Wynne government signalled it will remove the provincial portion of the HST from hydro bills in a bid to ease anger over soaring electricity rates.
The 8% rebate was announced in Lt.-Gov. Elizabeth Dowdeswell in the speech kicking off a new session of the legislature. It will result in a $130 savings annually for the average household according to the government. The rebate would be available to residential, farm and small business ratepayers. Rural ratepayers would receive a further 20% break under the plan which would result in an additional $45 a month, or $540 a year.

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/09/12...gh-hydro-rates

Too little, too late !

They screwed them for so many years, giving them a treat now and they'll get their votes again in the future....
I love it!!!

Your own tax dollars will be paying for this rebate. It's not a reduction in the price of hydro, or a reduction in the delivery charge... it's a government subsidy. Means the profits and stock price aren't affected, which keeps shareholders happy, which keeps them supporting Liberals. All it means is another portion of the government will have less budget, or they'll find somewhere else to generate further taxes. Perhaps another increase on vehicle license fees, or hunting license fees...

And then it'll turn into a fight with city vs rural and the argument that cities are propping up the rural folks... south vs north... etc.

And we'll still end up selling hydro at a loss to outside provinces/states, because we don't have systems in place to use the excess hydro when it's available... and even if we did, we'd be charged through the nose for it.

No worries, the hit we take with her hair-brained cap and trade scam will more than make up the measly 8% bribe !!!! We are still screwed until this LIEBERAL cartel is history.

I'm skeptical of this, 8% ( provincial portion of HST) and 20% off for rural customers.

Just waiting for the 30% carbon tax to be applied.

You rise rates almost 100% in 5 years and then give back 8% to make everybody happy. Nice!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by northernontario

Your own tax dollars will be paying for this rebate. It's not a reduction in the price of hydro, or a reduction in the delivery charge... it's a government subsidy. Means the profits and stock price aren't affected, which keeps shareholders happy, which keeps them supporting Liberals. All it means is another portion of the government will have less budget, or they'll find somewhere else to generate further taxes. Perhaps another increase on vehicle license fees, or hunting license fees...

And then it'll turn into a fight with city vs rural and the argument that cities are propping up the rural folks... south vs north... etc.
....

---

Great concept, isn't it?
Problem is, once you've figured out how they work (tax "reallocation" scam and intentional political polarization) the question becomes what can the average guy do.
Elections don't seem to impact the concept itself much (although certain parties like to rely on it significantly more so than others). Telling people (real life and on the internet) is great, but I wonder if there's more one can do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by northernontario

Your own tax dollars will be paying for this rebate. It's not a reduction in the price of hydro, or a reduction in the delivery charge... it's a government subsidy. Means the profits and stock price aren't affected, which keeps shareholders happy, which keeps them supporting Liberals. All it means is another portion of the government will have less budget, or they'll find somewhere else to generate further taxes. Perhaps another increase on vehicle license fees, or hunting license fees...

And then it'll turn into a fight with city vs rural and the argument that cities are propping up the rural folks... south vs north... etc.

And we'll still end up selling hydro at a loss to outside provinces/states, because we don't have systems in place to use the excess hydro when it's available... and even if we did, we'd be charged through the nose for it.

---

or

They (she) are realizing they are in very deep do do. Especially because for essentially the past 16 years ( prefer not to split hairs) they've have been "buying" their votes (wins) from the GTA and Unions. As you rightfully said Northern O this admin in particular, like few or no others has been playing Urban/Rural. Up until recently ( lets not split hairs) very few people (relatively speaking) have called them on it, called spades spades.

The GTA while they are starting to feel things, have not and are not feeling things near as much. Pretty much blind to what things are doing.
So 8% for them.
and 28% for rural Ontarians.

Don't think its so much a ploy to further wedge Rural/Urban as it is simply. I'm in a world of trouble and I better start sending some love towards Rural Ontario as opposed to just Urban Ontario.

And frankly "if" Urbanites "resent" it, good. Its about time they start paying "their fare share". No-body wants wind except urbanites....Fine then they can start paying for it. And no body consumes as much power as the cities. Rural Ontario should be getting a discount.

And oddly enough a month or so ago, it's exactly what I proposed to FMc.
Never thought they'd actually do the right thing.

But as Rick said
Too little, too late.

We've seen this smoke and mirrors shyte before. Sure,they'll reduce the provincial tax portion of the HST,but,they'll OK another rate hike or two to make up for it. This government will NEVER give something with one hand and not take back with the other.:mad:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

or

They (she) are realizing they are in very deep do do. Especially because for essentially the past 16 years ( prefer not to split hairs) they've have been "buying" their votes (wins) from the GTA and Unions. As you rightfully said Northern O this admin in particular, like few or no others has been playing Urban/Rural. Up until recently ( lets not split hairs) very few people (relatively speaking) have called them on it, called spades spades.

The GTA while they are starting to feel things, have not and are not feeling things near as much. Pretty much blind to what things are doing.
So 8% for them.
and 28% for rural Ontarians.

Don't think its so much a ploy to further wedge Rural/Urban as it is simply. I'm in a world of trouble and I better start sending some love towards Rural Ontario as opposed to just Urban Ontario.

And frankly "if" Urbanites "resent" it, good. Its about time they start paying "their fare share". No-body wants wind except urbanites....Fine then they can start paying for it. And no body consumes as much power as the cities. Rural Ontario should be getting a discount.

And oddly enough a month or so ago, it's exactly what I proposed to FMc.
Never thought they'd actually do the right thing.

But as Rick said
Too little, too late.

---

Read the rest of what the Liberals want to do (adding 100 000 child care spaces; 350 000 home care nursing hours and 1.3 million hours of personal support for families who are taking care of their parents; increasing lead math teachers up to 3 in all elementary schools) and weep. How much does Ontarians think this is all going to cost us? That stuff will need to be paid for. That means we will have to borrow more money because this woman is incapable of cutting anything.

Guys, this will only apply if you meet the requirements, they are the same requirements as the 8.5 cents /kWh reduction, meaning that for a single person you need to be making something like $30000 or less annually to get the credit, anyone making a wadge they can live on will continue to be gouged.

If you make a living wage you will have to pay your own prescriptions, eye care, dental, physio, hydro, gas, etc, but if you are poor then they will pay for you. To me it feels like they are trying to make the middle class the lower class.

Lol, yep Dyth. That and as others have noted..

Buts viewed in a vacuum, or as a "stand alone" it's still "the right thing to do".

Fox, where did you see that. I don't read all the papers like I used to. Heck I try not to read any papers anymore. :)
So Ive only read this article, and it would be unlike the Sun, not to point that out if there are qualifiers.

they are claiming that residential, rural and farm rate payers will get an 8% haircut (the hst). And rural Ontarians will receive an additional 20%. They then go on to explain that for the average household ( which would be based on kilowatts used) the savings will be X

Based on my last bill which was 210 for one month. It would basically save me 700/year.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trimmer21

We've seen this smoke and mirrors shyte before. Sure,they'll reduce the provincial tax portion of the HST,but,they'll OK another rate hike or two to make up for it. This government will NEVER give something with one hand and not take back with the other.:mad:

---

We can about this government forever and things will not change until the taxpayers of Ontario remember this irresponsible bunch of scam artists at the next election. Everybody complains, but lets stick together and vote them out next time.

These cuts in our Hydro Rates , do not take effect till Jan. of next year:rolleyes: , wow ! they are really trying to be nice to us. In the mean time we are still paying these absurd rates for another four months,and look at how much they will take in over these next four months.:mad:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaycee

These cuts in our Hydro Rates , do not take effect till Jan. of next year:rolleyes: , wow ! they are really trying to be nice to us. In the mean time we are still paying these absurd rates for another four months,and look at how much they will take in over these next four months.:mad:

---

Yea, like I said, just in time for the carbon tax to kick in. We won't realize a cent in savings.

Perfect. Appease the masses in the short term without ruining any gracious contracts with your liberal party doners.

Promise voters a percentage return, then claw it back and more in another fantasy project with no redress.

Row harder the "Queen" wants to water ski............ again.

Big notice at our library claimed that low income homes ( $50,000) could get a rebate so I applied. Seems that you need about seven family members to qualify at $50,000. Since we only have two members, our income must be down around $28,000 to qualify...

She also promised to reduce auto insurance rates by 15%. I have been with the same company and broker for 25 years with a perfect record and did not get any reduction. Reality is when Kathleen Wynne promises something she likely won't deliver unless it's to OPSEU or the teachers. If her lips are moving she is likely lieing. Even if she removes the HST on Hydro the carbon taxes will claw back 5x that. Total "shell game" for the imbeciles who believe her and vote for her.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...a779435462.jpg

Rebates don't help with how much money is left in our pockets at the end of the year....The government will get the tax money from us in another form.... She is buying us with our own money and I bet she is looking at the majority of Ontarians as fools..... Anyone that thinks an 8% tax rebate is saving them money, is only fooling themselves.

Where is she going to get the money for the rebates? (she certainly isn't going to be getting it from her own bank account)... She needs to stop some of her idiotic ideas and learn to save/spend our money responsibly.....Be responsible with our money and there will be lots of extra to give back....

Never going to happen. Too many on the tax payroll and the teachers union will buy her win forever. We are doomed to a downward spiral.

The crushing majority she has proves that more then just the unions voted for her.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by terrym

Never going to happen. Too many on the tax payroll and the teachers union will buy her win forever. We are doomed to a downward spiral.

---

True. But it's akin to saying.
" the majority proves More than just GTA voted for her." Moreover while vote buying ( buying the GTA is all this admin has done since 2000 which led to so many problems) is nothing new in politics.

-the auditor general ripping them new ones for kick backs to Unions (and more)
-the Cheif elections officer (that person in charge of safe guarding the sacred institution of democracy) making noise about the cozy relationships.
-the OPPs Union for the first time in history and breaking major protocol.

is new, anywhere and any time.


and all that really needs to be said.
After losing twice McGuinty figured it out. They ( Liberals ) have always known the key to Queens Park was Toronto/GTA. Buying and locking up the free agent/mercenary Unions ( having bailed on the NDP) was the front gate, first line of defence. The rest is basic math. There are only so many seats for the province......

and do note, despite all the problems, despite all the areas screaming for funding ( some deserved like the MNR, some maybe)

once again, as always love for teachers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blasted_saber

The crushing majority she has proves that more then just the unions voted for her.

---

you're right. Their children, spouses and parents all vote Libranos. That's enough to win s majority.

Don't forget the carbon tax..... coming to you soon.... with the HST on it too.

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=917223

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/08/05/carbon-price-chaos

Don't want to sidetrack the wonderful topic of how they gonna manage to give us a fraction of what the stole back, but don't you think they really mastered the art of divide and conquer just as well
http://www.therebel.media/trudeau_sa...regated_mosque
No coincidence; at least the second time (last i remember there were a bunch of cathlic quebecois killed!!) he went to a mosque in honour of islamic terror victims. There are a few options for any head of gvwrnment to do that, i don't know of any mosque however that would be a good choice...
Thr north vs south, urbanized vs rural might soon be a relict of the past. Enjoy as long as you can before we enter a new era. Remember: the kind of multiculturlism that workd out just fine in yugoslavia
I know that any party wants to gain support in niche markets, but how far does one go, and when should a GOVERMENT focus on the greater good of society and stop fueling the fire. I guess that tells us where their priorities are...

I just watched the video....makes me sick....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mosquito

Don't forget the carbon tax..... coming to you soon.... with the HST on it too.

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=917223

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/08/05/carbon-price-chaos

---

I too wondered what happened to the auto insurance gambit. What happened to it??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Everytime she opens her trap, I hear Charlie Brown's teacher's voice. Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

Fox, where did you see that. I don't read all the papers like I used to. Heck I try not to read any papers anymore. :)
So Ive only read this article, and it would be unlike the Sun, not to point that out if there are qualifiers.

they are claiming that residential, rural and farm rate payers will get an 8% haircut (the hst). And rural Ontarians will receive an additional 20%. They then go on to explain that for the average household ( which would be based on kilowatts used) the savings will be X

Based on my last bill which was 210 for one month. It would basically save me 700/year.

---

"Rural residents who are eligible will receive a larger rebate, about $45 a month or $540 a year."

You may get the 8% off but the extra 20% will only be for those who qualify.

Rural residents who are eligible.
who gets to decide who is and isn't rural? My guess is, ( simply because there no other information and that is way too big a thing to omit) qualifying will be a matter of postal code.

Is a resident who live 2 minutes from the edge of Oakville rural or urban. Is a resident who lives just outside Nepean R or U? How far outside Thunder Bay, North Bay, or Timmins.

Is a resident of Kap or matchewan, Kalder, bridge north, omemee,R or U?

better example:
I'm 10 minutes south of Lindsay on the west side of Scugog on well and septic, no municipal services. People 10 minutes south on the east have natural gas hook ups and Rogers. I'm sure we all think of ourselves as Rural but some on my side are still on forced air, or baseboard electric. I don't "care" if someone on my street makes 200k a year. And someone on the East side 50k. The province hasn't seen fit to deliver Natural Gas to this area. If someone is paying $1,000/month for heat in winter. They more than anyone "deserve a cup of coffee".

Could be wrong but my guess is, "qualifying" will be determined by postal. It would be a nightmare any other way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

Rural residents who are eligible.
who gets to decide who is and isn't rural? My guess is, ( simply because there no other information and that is way too big a thing to omit) qualifying will be a matter of postal code.

Is a resident who live 2 minutes from the edge of Oakville rural or urban. Is a resident who lives just outside Nepean R or U? How far outside Thunder Bay, North Bay, or Timmins.

Is a resident of Kap or matchewan, Kalder, bridge north, omemee,R or U?

better example:
I'm 10 minutes south of Lindsay on the west side of Scugog on well and septic, no municipal services. People 10 minutes south on the east have natural gas hook ups and Rogers. I'm sure we all think of ourselves as Rural some on my side are still on forced air, or baseboard electric.

. But......

---

Give 'em time to figure that out...it only took her since the byelection, to figure this little carrot out! Whatever, this means absolutely nothing ! Anyone who is gullable enough to fall for this shell game, needs help!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BigTurk

I too wondered what happened to the auto insurance gambit. What happened to it??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Yea, that sure helped didn't it !

Lol Rick. :)
doubt very much it will swing any votes, especially outside the GTA. But a "gift" is a gift. Given the carbon tax is going to be a tax, on the HST. If your hydro bills are 500-600 bi monthly. It will save you 50-55 dollars. Over a year that's 300-400 and buy myself a gun, or take the missus to dinner a few times. I'll happily take that $ and if she wants to throw even more at me (another 20%). All the better.

Im still going to vote her out in 2018 and take every chance I get to remind friends ( especially those in the GTA) why they should to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

Rural residents who are eligible.
who gets to decide who is and isn't rural? My guess is, ( simply because there no other information and that is way too big a thing to omit) qualifying will be a matter of postal code.

Is a resident who live 2 minutes from the edge of Oakville rural or urban. Is a resident who lives just outside Nepean R or U? How far outside Thunder Bay, North Bay, or Timmins.

Is a resident of Kap or matchewan, Kalder, bridge north, omemee,R or U?

better example:
I'm 10 minutes south of Lindsay on the west side of Scugog on well and septic, no municipal services. People 10 minutes south on the east have natural gas hook ups and Rogers. I'm sure we all think of ourselves as Rural but some on my side are still on forced air, or baseboard electric. I don't "care" if someone on my street makes 200k a year. And someone on the East side 50k. The province hasn't seen fit to deliver Natural Gas to this area. If someone is paying $1,000/month for heat in winter. They more than anyone "deserve a cup of coffee".

Could be wrong but my guess is, "qualifying" will be determined by postal. It would be a nightmare any other way.

---

It states that you need to meet the criteria of ... I forget what it is called and I am not looking it up on lunch but this is the same exact criteria that allows you to get a discount of 8.5 cents per kWh, essentially your household earnings needs to be under $35000 annually for a family of 4, it is around $30000 annually for a single person.

This along with the free tuition thing I think it makes sense to just quit your job if you have a family in this province, they will pay for everything if you are under $30K, just do work under the table and have the tax payer take care of you, the hard working middle class is getting screwed once again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

Lol Rick. :)
doubt very much it will swing any votes, especially outside the GTA. But a "gift" is a gift. Given the carbon tax is going to be a tax, on the HST. If your hydro bills are 500-600 bi monthly. It will save you 50-55 dollars. Over a year that's 300-400 and buy myself a gun, or take the missus to dinner a few times. I'll happily take that $ and if she wants to throw even more at me (another 20%). All the better.

Im still going to vote her out in 2018 and take every chance I get to remind friends ( especially those in the GTA) why they should to.

---

Good luck with that! Don't spend it yet. With the increase in gas, hydro, propane and anything else you can think of because of her carbon scam, we won't see an extra red scent! Shell game.....period !

I'll take any rebate I get from them and use it against them as a campaign donation to another party.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BigTurk

I too wondered what happened to the auto insurance gambit. What happened to it??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

The insurance companies reduced premiums as directed,but,reduced coverage as well. To restore coverage to previous levels,as a top-up,consumers had to pay extra premiums. Eventually,our health care system will suffer the same fate as it must or there'll be a total collapse of the entire system. The way these fool Liberals have literally raped health care,it's bound to happen sooner rather than later.

I'm confused. Have I said anywhere, anytime I like this admin? The most I've said, is giving rural Ontarians a bigger break is the right thing.

would people rather pay them an extra $1,540 when all these new things hit, or $1,000? Lol, when they cancelled the 10% last January everyone hit the roof. Now that they are grovelling for support and putting it back in ( albeit only 8%) everyone's moaning. I assume we are intelligent enough to know it's no answer. Especially when hydro is increasing 8% or more a year alone.

So here's the choices. Pay all the new taxes already in, taxes coming, rate increases coming anyways. With or without this they are coming. Or pay them anyways but less 8% on Hydro or 28% less. There's no law that says we can't voluntarily pay more taxes. So go right ahead, if this results in keeping $500 or $1000 (say your a family of 6, or on electric heat) more a year in your pocket, send it back in protest.
/crickets

Fox, I've now read a number of articles on it. The most I've seen is "depending on where you live". Not saying your mistaken just have seen it.

http://globalnews.ca/news/2935325/wy...n-say-critics/

lol, this article:
"this has been in the works for months". So that could only mean the day they cancelled the 10% rebate, they had this brain child????? More likely, having been trounced in the by election and getting earfuls from her own members. They decided to throw money at it, as that's all they know how how to do.
https://www.thestar.com/news/queensp...ne-speech.html

No, you haven't JB. I get where you are coming from. However, unless there is cash in hand after this scam, it is of no benefit. Giving from one hand and taking back with the other ( likely a greater quantum) does nothing to increase the bottom line......

It's starting to smell a lot like it did during Rae.....Days.

The carbon taxes will trigger inflation of every good and service you consume. What business doesn't use energy to heat the building, manufacture a product or deliver it. Never mind the harvesting of raw materials. Everything has a carbon footprint. Prepare to toss an extra $10 on every tank of gas. She will leave $50 on the table and pull $500 out of your pocket. How do you think the new Hydro owners are going to take price controls after buying shares? Stay tuned for a disaster that will likely end in court.

No worries rick.
I hate what they are doing. And on the hole don't like that they are once again buying support. That's their answer to everything. Create a huge damn mess, then throw $ at people. But in a vacuum it's $ in our pockets. Even if they hammer us else where.

saw something today on where hydro is heading by some economists. Not pretty, it's too late now to "back out and reverse direction without incurring HUGE cost. . And sadly even if the GTA finally sees what the rest of Ontario saw coming years ago ( the unions I'm sure won't bail except for Smokey they rather take everyone down).

Someone, likely Brown will inherit it all. And like Mike Harris before him following Rae, is going to have one hell of a mess to try and fix. Given the debt he will inherit, don't hold your breath for tax relief. And no doubt in the years after, the Unions once again will cry, and cry and cry and cause more pain ( strikes and labour actions) and blame everything on Brown and the cons. And at some point the GTA will buy it (literally and figuratively) again.

Saw this on the global news tonight....

For every $100 in usage that appears on your electricity bill, $77 of that is the Global Adjustment fee. Meaning the cost of electricity use is only $23.



What exactly is included in the Global Adjustment fee? (If you have time, click on the link below-interesting read-basically we are getting screwed)


http://globalnews.ca/news/2839995/wh...mers-must-pay/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

No worries rick.
I hate what they are doing. And on the hole don't like that they are once again buying support. That's their answer to everything. Create a huge damn mess, then throw $ at people. But in a vacuum it's $ in our pockets. Even if they hammer us else where.

saw something today on where hydro is heading by some economists. Not pretty, it's too late now to "back out and reverse direction without incurring HUGE cost. . And sadly even if the GTA finally sees what the rest of Ontario saw coming years ago ( the unions I'm sure won't bail except for Smokey they rather take everyone down).

Someone, likely Brown will inherit it all. And like Mike Harris before him following Rae, is going to have one hell of a mess to try and fix. Given the debt he will inherit, don't hold your breath for tax relief. And no doubt in the years after, the Unions once again will cry, and cry and cry and cause more pain ( strikes and labour actions) and blame everything on Brown and the cons. And at some point the GTA will buy it (literally and figuratively) again.

---

You can't blame the unions for everything..... certainly not for this....The governments the problem, they don't know how to control/spend our money properly and that is the bottom line.

.... does a cottage count????? I was paying about $45 a month for ZERO usage last winter.

We are going to NEED someone that makes Ronald Regan & Mike Harris combined look like.... Bob Rae to get Ontario turned enough in the right direction to make a difference in 4 years I am afraid. That and the Liberal idiocy I have repeatedly encountered.... I recently read a conversation about the need to reduce debt (Since Ontario's paying about $10B in just covering the debt) but the Lib said...

"yes, we never have to pay of sovereign debt. http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/debt_brief.php
As you can see at no point since 1692 did the UK have zero debt. Between 1692 and now, Great Britain was able to have an industrial revolution, gain an empire, win two world wars, one world cup and then lose the empire. As long as someone is willing to buy Ontario's debt, we can keep writing it."

He jumped to paying it all off and the sad reality he was just incapable of understanding austerity and managing a budget and even the concept of the cost of debt was beyond is understanding... he bragged his degree was from U of T and that made sense actually. Doubling the debt seems to be a Liberal Goal (NDP seems to aim at 4 or 5X) and who is benefiting, not students, not doctors and patients, not the poor by far and taxpayers are on the hook so....

Ontario spends $11.4 billion a year just to service its debt — more than it spends on all social services for adults or to run its universities and colleges. It’s the third largest single item in the budget after health care and public education, and that’s in a historically low-interest-rate environment. So what happens when interest rates rise?
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...est-rates-rise

and if interest rates go up like in the article.... where will they get the money from .... go look in a mirror if you have a job, unless the job has left the province by that time.

Actually we can Fatri and I will. While I could use a number of things to show why ( they likely, almost certainly would be gone long before now if not for them). Ultimately who is to blame. Aka "you get the govt you deserve".

ill stick with Hydro.
Some people blame Harris for the mess Hydro is. And they aren't "wrong". It was Harris after all, that opened Pandora's box. Breaking up Ontario Hydro into 5 separate entities. Fair enough. In hindsight, given where things went and where things stand today, it might be the biggest brain cramp in history.

But why did Harris do the things he did(not the least of which was trying to reduce cost, and thus had to "take on the unions"). Well because he to inherited a god awful mess, left by Rae. Or have you forgotten the mad spending, credit downgrades, or simply "Rae Days".
*********************************

there is simply NO ESCAPiNG the fact, that Unions are political puppet masters these days. Like it not, the Unions are too blame for a lot. And the fact that both the auditor general, and Chief elections officer have both sounded very loud warnings bells. Not sure how that escapes you.Its been nothing but trouble since Rae. And one common denominator. Many hate Harris for some of the things he did, and many loved McGuinty because he arguably inherited a bit of mess, especially in healthcare where Harris went too far.

Funny, none of those people who thought McGuinty was their white knight and saviour, ever pause long enough to ask. Why....Why did Harris do things he did.

A "what if"
the province is a god awful mess, Hydro is just one big problem. Who ever inherits it, will have fun. 350 billion debt, a "struggling economy", tax payers on their knees, getting hammered.

you really think if Brown tries to cut cost/spending the Unions won't go bat ship.
Please! And like Harris before him, if he wants to keep his job...If wants things to run smoothly..


didnt every Teachers Union throw a fit because God forbid the province try to keep cost flat ( forget reduce) and class sizes just last year? Yes they did, despite all the glaring, bigger, problems and the province hemmorraging..and tax payers getting crushed, especially those outside the GTA where jobs don't pay tons, nor are there as many jobs............and on that note, wasn't it just last summer Ms Wynne went to bat for the province, trying to control cost....kids on the streets before finals, many not knowing about college acceptances, scholarships...no report cards....
and what is she doing now? Hiring more math teachers (reducing the numbers of students to teachers).

curious Fatri.
Healthcare to is a huge sucking wound these days. Where do you think the $ for thousands of Nurses and more that are needed will come from? Theres only 3 choices.
1) Raise more taxes
2) Go further into debt
3) Reduce cost...But that will mean.......

And thats just healthcare, have we forgotten Hydro already?..

Damn straight the Unions are to blame.

And on the off chance, this go "any further"

Smokey while he deserves credit for calling spades spades during the 2014 election. OPSEU was one of the only Unions not to campaign for them, and he bluntly said to the others " you've sold your souls"...

Has this to say about the rebate
Thomas added that the overall direction of the throne speech September 12 was still one of austerity.“It's still all about austerity,” he said. “They can say they put money into services but for every dollar they put in government, they've taken a hundred out. It's all a shell game – it's all smoke and mirrors.”

scuze me?
100 out for every dollar in?
How the feck does he explain going from 70billion debt when they came into power to 330billion by 2018. Plus they've doubled revenue (taxes) from around 50 billion to 120billion.

good luck Patrick fixing things. It's going to be war and meanwhile the poor hapless peons getting hammered, who can't save ( wonder why)......

the unions do what they are hired to do...protect the workers and their rights......gain as much for them as possible-that is the unions job-fight for the workers....

If the government can't negotiate wisely (justly) they aren't very good or perhaps, they are just corrupt....That's not the unions fault, it is the fault of the people for allowing the government to get away with it....

The government is giving us an 8% decrease in hydro rates..... to try and buy us off.... It's not because they had to pay teachers more... it's because they overspend and waste billions of tax dollars on foolish projects (some don't even get off the ground)...If the government stopped spending our tax dollars foolishly, they wouldn't have to keep raising taxes (or find new ways to tax us)....There would be enough money in the coffers for....better healthcare, education and infrastructure resulting in more jobs and more spending (fridge-stove-cars etc)...keeping the economy (jobs) going...The more money I have in my pocket, the more likely I am going to spend it, resulting in more jobs....

Bottom line....the government is to blame for not keeping spending under control...

No problems with unions sticking to what they "should" do. There's a world of difference, entering politics. Do you think I'm the only person Fatri? And where did I say they are giving people rebates so they can pay teachers more? I said "lo and behold" they are hiring more teachers, just 1 year after going to war to over class sizes to try and keep cost flat........

Like seriiusly, what's it's going to take before you and many other Union drum beaters understand they are big part of the problems here in Ontario. Utter destruction? And are really, no different than the evil greedy capitalist that govts crawl into bed with to?

You and others didn't want to hear it back in 2009, when their spending habits forced them to call in Drummond. Still don't want to see or hear it. Not from Smokey, not from the auditor general, not the Cheif elections officer and certainly not from those of us with the back bone....well now we say

told u so

Why doesn't the government stop giving in and stop overspending... That would solve the problem.................oh ya....they just care about getting re-elected....

Yes JB I agree, no different than ' greedy capitalists'. They are both doing what they think is best for themselves and their members. If you allow business interests to donate time and money to political parties, you must allow unions and their members to do likewise.

Well that opens a ton. First just want to say "shouldn't have said "you" and drum beaters". But this has actually been part of the problem. Getting many people to see what this admin is about ( and that includes corruption to). It's been exasperating, and too many years too late people are finally seein/admitting it and "admitting" they made huge mistakes voting for them. Or campaigning for them. Shame it's taken so long, and so much damage.

"waste"
larger topic imo but this to can be seen. Not only here, but federally and in many areas. The trends are quite clear. Since the 60/70s govt has gone up, the middle class down. In short, the more they take in, the more they spend, and like anyone, the more $ you have, the more you waste. Wasting a few hundred million barely makes the news anymore......

at the end of the day. We get the governments we deserve and it's on us..so ultimately it's the electorate that's to blame. And people can't say the writing wasn't on the wall back in 2010.

"Unions"
still have "jobs" to do imo, but this isn't the 50s/60s anymore either. What is neededis kicking them hard, out of Queens Park, out of politics.

Sure if that applies to all 'lobbyists', and not just union ones. Do you not think Mr. Brown has business interests speaking into his right ear?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Yes JB I agree, no different than ' greedy capitalists'. They are both doing what they think is best for themselves and their members. If you allow business interests to donate time and money to political parties, you must allow unions and their members to do likewise.

---

have to reply to this.
-give me two examples of a couple corporations who spend millions taking out advertising for a party, or Demonizing another? Suspect I'll have to wait years and years before you can find say a bank, getting involved in elections.

-give me 1 example of a Cheif elections officer having things to say about corporations making a mockery of democracy.

-give me 1 example of a corporation coming down hard on their brass for becoming political as happened with the OPPs Union. who by the way are facing racketeering charges. Funny that.

-give me one example where companies "force" employees to donate their $ (tax payers $) to any party. I'm sure there are tons of teachers for example who don't want their $ being used to elect Ms Wynne

-give me one

jesus good god, you Union lovers, so ready to excuse so much, so blind to things despite so much..and that's one reason, things are the way they are.:)

Looks like the honeymoon may be over !!!!
http://www.citynews.ca/2016/09/14/cu...ro-one-shares/

There are literally hundreds if not thousands of lobbyists , for all kinds of industries. Those lobbyists are paid millions of dollars by big corporations to try and get the government to do things in a way that maximizes profits for their particular industry. They do not have to advertise for a party because they do all their work behind the scene where we can't see them. Those union dues dollars spent are the same as taking profits from shareholders to try and influence government and therefore increase profits, to those same shareholders. Same as using union dues to try and get a better contract for their members. If you allow donations to political parties at all, then you must allow all , to do so.

Proving the point, others are corrupt, others care only about themselves, and their industries. So it's ok if we do to. Which is highly hipocritical considering how much you specifically ( and unions) rage about corporate greed. So long as your the beneficiary it's ok, right?

you still cannot and will not find major corporations actively campaigning for or against other parties Gord. Swaying elections!!! Where in free and democratic societies....you also won't find corporations that force employees to donate to their political causes. You also won't find those companies leaning on employees to pound pavement, or coercing them to vote for X

until you can find example of say
GM campaigning for either the cons or Libs (who have both "rewarded" GM) or Air Canada or Bombardier or Samsung/wind companies. Spending 10s of millions in advertising, flooding airwaves which reach the poplulace, and not just a few hundred people (their employees)

until you can find just 1 example of a Cheif elections officer sounding alarm bells...

if you want to stick your head in the sand.....fine
if you want to excuse it, turn a blind cheek...fine
but Atleast be honest about it, and with yourself.

ps G, my industry?
id be the first to admit the problems, and that change was needed. And when it's beyond obvious that there's abuses/corruption. Call for heads.

"you and yours" not so much. See the past 16 years, the damage its done, and the facts "you and yours" have worked oh so hard to keep them in power, and the excuses you just made.

"good job"

anywho, point being.
even when this merry crew get the boat. Have fun fixing the oh so many problems. Because there are 3 choices. And we are already in debt up to our eyeballs, taxes to the teeth. And if Hydro isn't bad enough, look at healthcare. Can't say you weren't warned, I and many many others can say

told u so.

If others can care only about their industry and their profits, then yes it is right, that unions are allowed to do the same. How would it go over in the business world if all lobbing of any government was banned? Big business does not care who is in power, as long as they get their way. . Canadian corp. tax rate in 1981 was 50.9 , now it is 26.5 , that explains where a lot of revenue went. Oh ya still waiting for that trickle down effect. For the first time in Canadian history more revenue comes from personal income tax than federal corporation taxes.

/whoosh

and that's all there is to say. excepr perhaps your a big part of the reason we are where we are. And you know the next time you say anything about "corporate greed"..........

now hopefully back to Hydro, people being crushed, and what if anything can be done. And the problems PB will have to contend with once this merry crew get kicked to the curb.


finally

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

If others can care only about their industry and their profits, then yes it is right, that unions are allowed to do the same. How would it go over in the business world if all lobbing of any government was banned? Big business does not care who is in power, as long as they get their way. .

---

Aren't Unions supposed to exist to protect and provide service to the workers.... the non-disclosure laws the Liberals put back in place guarantee that the members have no clue and no say in how the money is spent. IF a profit is the goal of a Union too then when does the profit take preference to the benefit of the members? The disclosure laws were a good first step in having Unions accountable to their membership instead of an organization that spending was secret and accountability nonexistent.... but the Liberal's even held the meeting without the press, seems they don't like accountability and openness.... while business have to disclose the information to shareholders, the gov't etc.

Union extortion of business and gov't secret deals and payoffs... that is the reason we see Ontario in such a mess financially.

Profit for a union is when their members get a raise, or better pension or better working conditions. Most union members do not care how their money is spent as long as it benefits them. Just like shareholders and CEO's.

And gee G, all these years you and your unions have worked so hard, trying to convince everyone your the social conscious, the champions of the working stiffs.not so much, all you care about is yourself.

One other thing you keep forgetting.
Those working stiffs, who are getting crushed, and that includes many in PS, while you and the CEOs Rob everyone blind. Don't have to fly "air Canada", or "bank with TD", or any other.............

Read this yesterday. While it is BC, Ontario is just as bad, if not worse. Strongly suggest you read it.
http://bc.ctvnews.ca/mobile/case-deb...ourt-1.3059873

and why is it so bad here?
becuase, lots of reasons, one Cheif reason is Unions who are so self entitled they forget the common man, ( let's not even compare life) or how because one Union is today's best buddy, other people lower on the rung get screwed, like COs, or EAs, or Nurses, or the pencil pushing peons in QP...yup, you truly are eating your own now, screwing each other. <<<<<something else that I and others predicted years ago

taking it the chin, each way and every way.

and on and on and on.

maybe you'll answer the ? G
where will find the $ to hire 10,000 nurses, buy medical equipment, funding for procedures so there's no quotas and limits causing those commoners to wait. Months and months and months.

oh, have we forgotten Hydro again?


Keep eps sticking your head in the sand G. The unions are a big part of it, whether it's the corruption, the advertising/campaigning, and well whatever. Just hope you never scream about corporate greed or corruption again. Your no better.

And no worse!!! Unions do what they are expected and mandated to do..... improve the working conditions and paychecks of their members, period.

You and your ilk?.....................

Come on JB, what business or CEO would not try to maximise profits for themselves, and yes at the expense of others.. Why should it be any different for a working stiff in a union. I won't take a raise so X can get one, are you for real? Try that one on the membership, and you will get, " I did not pay 65 bucks a month for someone else to get a raise and not me".

I said forget that stuff, there's corruption ( your ok with that), there's a mockery of democracy (your ok with that) , and more. Just as long as it's you benefitting. Who gives a rats backside about the typical stiff, all those people who are neither, caught "in the middle".

back to Hydro, crushing prices, and what in time anyone might be able to do to try and fix the god awful mess. And keep in mind if things don't change. Well PB will have Unioms breathing fire and brimstone, just like

Mike Harris did.

I know of nothing the unions have done to break the law. They have done what they were paid to do by their dues paying members, like the CEO and his shareholders.

Your hopeless, you'll excuse anything, turn your cheek. And it's that kind of stuff, that is directly and solely responsible for this admin, and thus, what they've done, all the problems and more.

You don't get it and never will no matter what is before your eyes, no matter what is presented, no matter what anyone, including the Cheif elections officer says, or the auditor general, or or or or or or or.

Keep telling yourself whatever it is you need to tell yourself. I'll just say
"good job", the bottom line is, this admin has been kept in power with a lot of help from.....

seriously and honeslty this has been covered soooo many times.

and for the last time, "back to....."

Yup, it is the union guy who goes to work at the hospital, pushing residents dinning room , who has got us in this mess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

I know of nothing the unions have done to break the law. They have done what they were paid to do by their dues paying members, like the CEO and his shareholders.

---

Yep, same as paying protection money to the mafia and asian gangs.

Omg.
1) haven't said that, in fact did I not say there are teachers who won't vote with the Unions or for Ms Wynne. I'm sure there are a lot of Teachers who don't want their $ being used to campaign for and elect her????
2) have I not said umpteen times "unions"....last I checked that janitor isn't a "Union"
3) have I not tried to emphasize that because people have turned cheeks to soooooo much ( many times)
4) have I not said, or tried to that of the problems and it underlies so much going back years.

Is their political involvement.

i have tried so many times to steer this back. Obviously G, the fact people, many people are looking hard at "things", including Cheif election officers. The fact Ms Wynne has been dragged kicking and screaming in at least some changes regarding financing...it's not enough but it's a start...........

what at more will it take, how can it be worded..
i give up.

Unions are doing what they are paid to do, improve the lot of their dues paying members. How can they be at fault for that?

Remember the original problem is the government doesn't know or care about keeping spending under control....seems to me they only care about keeping in power(their jobs).....and that there is the problem...
We need a government that can respect (manage properly) the funds they collect from us.
Whether you work for the public or private sector, you most likely work hard (some harder than others for sure) but we all work. The governments lack of respect they have for most of us working stiffs is just (for lack of a better word) ........sad.... They treat our hard earned money like it's an endless lottery/pit....

Pretty much Fatri.

God i have tried to steer it back a handful of times. G, there's nothing wrong with Unions. There are problems with their political involvement. If we can all agree the province is a "wreck". Can all find "common" ground with Fatris post. There's no denying Unions have poured a ton of $ into keeping this admin in power. And more than the usual suspects ( Google who gives $ to "working families") how does that serve the best interest of

EVERYONE, (queens Park job) especially the "typical stiffs", which includes many in PS. The record shows it's not serving "us" well. Not remotely, how anyone can "defend" that is beyond exasperating.. "Good job". Once upon a time there was this man, who tried to do what he thought was right to. His name? mike Harris. Can you fault him for doing what he was supposed to do, what he was paid to do? I bet you do....

so much had been written about this stuff. So many are ringing bells. And turning "cheeks" to it, is well part of the problem. The larger problem, is the clout if you will over QP and influencing elections.



https://www.thestar.com/news/queensp...g-company.html

There are now enough people on the public payroll, be it Fed-Prov-Muni to keep the Libranos in power. Throw in their spouses ,children, parents, hell even the OPP Union to make criminal charges time out and the sad truth is its now over. They will rule forever. Trudough is about to game the electoral system so that there will never be another Conservative government. Bury your guns and work for cash. Trudough and Wynne are going to bend you over like you have never seen.

the cost of power. The human cost. Whether I mean hydro power, or those who care only about keeping their power. And what they will do to have power. People can make up their own minds.

http://www.intelligencer.ca/2016/08/08
http://globalnews.ca/news/2877618/hy...energy-crisis/

so very much more that could be linked. Like the cost to these people when healthcare is hemmorraging as well. Due note, one of those couple can't afford to run their medicsal equipment necessary for life........ Or what it's going to "cost" and take just trying to fix.....just some....of this stuff. If and when they finally, get kicked out.

And it is beyond exasperating that....even to this day, so many things have to be "argued", despite oh so much. And or efforts to get back on topic despite how hard it is. Because some things are so intricately linked.

At at the end of the day, "we get the govts we deserve". Why do they do the things they do, waste these days, billions, or spend billions buying votes and support.

because "we" let them. No other reasons.
If "we" wouldn't put up with it, condone it and more. Being politicians who only care about staying in power......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

the cost of power. The human cost. Whether I mean hydro power, or those who care only about keeping their power. And what they will do to have power. People can make up their own minds.

http://www.intelligencer.ca/2016/08/08
http://globalnews.ca/news/2877618/hy...energy-crisis/

so very much more that could be linked. Like the cost to these people when healthcare is hemmorraging as well. Due note, one of those couple can't afford to run their medicsal equipment necessary for life........ Or what it's going to "cost" and take just trying to fix.....just some....of this stuff. If and when they finally, get kicked out.

And it is beyond exasperating that....even to this day, so many things have to be "argued", despite oh so much. And or efforts to get back on topic despite how hard it is. Because some things are so intricately linked.

At at the end of the day, "we get the govts we deserve". Why do they do the things they do, waste these days, billions, or spend billions buying votes and support.

because "we" let them. No other reasons.
If "we" wouldn't put up with it, condone it and more. Being politicians who only care about staying in power......

---

The problem is "we are human" and as humans.... we can get used to anything...unfortunately we are getting used to getting screwed.....so much so, that it is become a way of life (acceptable).... When/why did we let the few become so powerful? We need to take the power back.... Maybe one day we will because they are suppose to work for us.

Yep. Not sure anyone can really pin a point in history and say "there, that's when"..probably like grass or children growing. A time comes when you realize suddenly they've grown 3 inches......

we, especially here in Ontario desperately need political reform. Yep, that includes getting the unions out of QP somehow, yet still allowing them to represent their members. That's their job, not helping to run things by controlling who gets or stays in. Forget illustrating how McWynne have used and benefitted from that. Anyone who dares say "boo"...very short political life. They are all "afraid" of them.

how many seats there are and where, aka combine some of the GTA, or create some more rural, needs to change I think. But even then, if we won't hold them accountable....why should they care. You look back just 20-25 years ago. The abuses, waste, and more are so much worse.