Caesar Milan

Not a thread to say nasty things about Caesar, but I got a good laugh the other night.
I watch his shows occasionally ; you can usually learn something.

He had an out of control American Bulldog - chased horses on the farm.
He tried several things to fix the problem , and then brought out an e collar for training purposes , the use of which he explained well.

At the end they always show how changed the dog is. Yes, he just sat their calm as the horses raised around.
"Amazing change."

Then I noticed the e collar was still on the dog. :)

Not sure why you find that observation worthy of note Sharon.

Isn't that the point of those collars, a behavioral deterrent.

By the end of each show, the dog is always shown to have miraculously become an obedient companion, with behavioral issues resolved. This is supposedly done through verbal and physical correction and reinforcement of the dogs place in the pack. In this case, it appears those methods didn't work 100%, hence the collar. I can see why Sharon got a chuckle from it.

i remember that episode well from a while ago. i dont think they are making new epsisodes, but i could be wrong.

he acknowledges that sometimes in an off leash environment, you cannot reach out and touch the dog, so therefore additional tools are necessary. i know my dog acts completely different when he doesnt have his pinch collar on out in public on leash, and takes a few more chances with me, when the collar is not on. and i rarely have to use it, but have in the past.

In the short time he spent with the dog, it probably still needed the collar for further conditioning.

i used to be a huge fan of cesar milan, until you realize he is one of those people that just has a way with dogs, that cannot be matched by most others. i think a lot of his techniques are good and he has done a lot to educate the general public about proper handling, but they work extra well since he has this "sixth sense" with dogs. but i am no dog expert, and my dog is far from perfect.

show is show and from that perspective you are right that it would have been more stunning if they've taken it off. however, from the perspective of training that dog, why would you?
my dog doesn't need an e-collar (e.g. can call her off game or anything else for that matter), but I put one on to keep it that way - just to notice that the batteries are long empty when I finally do press the button LOL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikePal

Not sure why you find that observation worthy of note Sharon.

Isn't that the point of those collars, a behavioral deterrent.

---

Because, as the Brits say, the goal is to work the dog 'naked'. If the dog is wearing the toys, it usually means it cannot be trusted, i.e. it's not trained.

Ive never needed an e collar or choke chain. My dog is just as behaved off leash as on leash. I guess thats where knowledge, hard work and serious training differ from quick fixes. I can garuntee if you booted the dog in the arse as hard as you could when it chased the cows it would have the same effect on the dog as the ecollar, or pinching its ears or slapping its snout. Negative reinforcement works its just not the preferred method and doesnt have long lasting effects like positive reinforcement. There are things I taught my shepherd 5 years ago and she instantly recalls how to perform them even when its been years since I last said the command. Shes getting old now and I prefer to let her make up her own rules and alot more easy going with her now and have yet to see any behavioural changes. Positive reinforcement is more initial work whereas negative reinforcement can have immediate effects but negative reinforcement needs constant reminders and is more work in the long run. Best to do it right or not at all!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vom Dufenshmirtz

Because, as the Brits say, the goal is to work the dog 'naked'. If the dog is wearing the toys, it usually means it cannot be trusted, i.e. it's not trained.

---

I prefer to work naked...the dog that is.

the dog prefers when you work naked? hmm.... might be onto something here

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deer Wrastler

Ive never needed an e collar or choke chain. My dog is just as behaved off leash as on leash. I guess thats where knowledge, hard work and serious training differ from quick fixes. I can garuntee if you booted the dog in the arse as hard as you could when it chased the cows it would have the same effect on the dog as the ecollar, or pinching its ears or slapping its snout. Negative reinforcement works its just not the preferred method and doesnt have long lasting effects like positive reinforcement. There are things I taught my shepherd 5 years ago and she instantly recalls how to perform them even when its been years since I last said the command. Shes getting old now and I prefer to let her make up her own rules and alot more easy going with her now and have yet to see any behavioural changes. Positive reinforcement is more initial work whereas negative reinforcement can have immediate effects but negative reinforcement needs constant reminders and is more work in the long run. Best to do it right or not at all!

---

Glad you've had good training experiences with your dog.

I do disagree with your position around neg/pos reinforcement for training. Quite to the contrary negative reinforcement is not required on a constant basis to reinforce the desired response .And as far as eliciting a desired response ....well that is built on keeping a high standard in your training after sound teaching.

No question with the e collar you can reach out and touch them far from the reach of your boot and being more humane.

I rather doubt you've trained a dog with an ecollar or you would have responded about their effectiveness. But hey what works ...works and if you can accomplish training without one and with a great level of compliance...then great. But with much higher expectations for our dogs especially in competitions then you've handicapped yourself immensely with your training. The ecollar supports higher level training which goes well beyond pet expectations just as an example.

Training your shepherd some basics is a far cry from training retrievers and others in various pursuits. You might want to talk to other trainers like those those involved in K-9 training and see how they view the positive /negative response training.

In Canada and the US there are trainers who have trained the'Amish' way which is certainly their choice but have had almost no success in competitions as a general rule.

My English Springer Spaniel requires an e-collar at all times when hunting and is out of an incredible pedigree of U.S field trial champions. When she see's the e-collar she knows its time to work and listen. In fact she gets so over stimulated by birds that only an e-collar would stop her from missed birds during her early training.

In fact i had her at a reputable breeder/trainer of UK English Springer Spaniels this past summer for training and a possible breeding in the very near future to one of her UK dogs. While the very experienced trainer was working with her came to the conclusion that my Elly has ADHD. The trainer had come across this before and recommended medication. The trainer put an an email together for my vet to read along with her early training methods and made a recommendation to try medication to treat the ADHD.

My vet was so impressed with the trainers knowledge and methods used to help Elly that he immediately put Elly on Clomipramine. That was 2 months ago and Elly is a completely different animal while hunting and as a family pet. She still wears the e-collar while hunting but i have yet to correct her since she has been on the medication. She is an absolute pleasure to be around and no longer requires constant correction. Her pedigree or breeding program that she came out of requires an e-collar while the UK dog breeding programs focus heavily on promoting a much calmer focused dog and the reason why many of the UK breeders do not use them.

My Uk Labrador Retriever import has not ever worn an e-collar and needs very little correction if any. She is completely focused on me at all times and obeys all commands taught most of the time. Would she be a field trial champion...possibly with a lot more work. Her pedigree is riddled with field trial champions going back many many generations. But we all know U.S field trials and UK field trials are different from each other.

In my opinion I prefer the UK dog because of a more pleasurable training experience. An e-collar has its place but its not for every dog temperament and could easily sour a dog if not used or introduced properly.

Good points YD about the ecollar. Those unfamiliar with them are astounded how seldom they are used although constantly worn to uphold a standard and for safety.

Even when I use a collar many eyes would never see it happen judging by the dog's response. People have this mental picture what they think it would look like. Of course that's where collar conditioning comes in along with the proper introduction of it.

You're fortunate with your female but I've always said...what works... works.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by krakadawn

I do disagree with your position around neg/pos reinforcement for training. Quite to the contrary negative reinforcement is not required on a constant basis to reinforce the desired response.

---

Furthermore, I think we're misusing the terminology here. Negative reinforcement is not applied with a boot to the rear end -- that's punishment (positive punishment, to be precise). And it's the least effective method in the training toolbox.

I'd go so far as to suggest that in most cases, if a collar is being used as a punishment tool, it's being misused. The state of the art in e-collar use has moved on.

My Brittany never leaves the house without his ecollar. It doubles as a beeper so I can keep track of him if needed. He also never needs correction anymore and comes running in joy when he hears it get turned on. Collars are a wonderful thing for high prey drive dogs. Properly used most dogs don't need them used to correct very quickly.

Thanks for adding that Welsh, you are quite correct.

One of the best retriever training resources is a book titled 'The Art and Science of training retrievers' by Dave Rorem, a US pro trainer. The title pretty much sums it up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by terrym

My Brittany never leaves the house without his ecollar. It doubles as a beeper so I can keep track of him if needed. He also never needs correction anymore and comes running in joy when he hears it get turned on. Collars are a wonderful thing for high prey drive dogs. Properly used most dogs don't need them used to correct very quickly.

---

Mine don't need corrections anymore from an e collar , but as you noted, the locator feature is invaluable ; gives me peace of mind , as I lost a dog forever once.

Sharon...are you not using the e-caller as a detergent, even if you are only using it as a GPS tracker ?

When you put the collar on the dog, he behaves according to what the collar means to him, regardless if it's turned on or not.

Very true Mike. Thanks for clarifying that.

Same with the JRTs anti bark collar. I haven't changed the battery in a year, but it is still effective outside when he decides he hates the neighbor.