Choosing the right long range deer bullet....

Here is the lineup;


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...psxhtzok0n.jpg


From rom left to right;

Barnes 300 grain original, .291 BC

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...ps8mwhglvt.png

Barnes 300 grain .458 Socom TTSX, .236 BC

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...pst6fy8q9c.png

310 APB from ASG, .430 BC

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...ps9ejujgxu.png


I've done a bit of shooting with the 310 and 300 socom. The velocity shown is actual and the 310 shoots considerably flatter and slightly faster than the lighter socom. I tried annealing the socom to get better obturation but that was to no avail. I think that less bearing surface to the lands may account fo the difference in speed but that's just a guess. Accuracy was good though at just over an inch on the 300 yard target and single hole at 100.

I am am hoping I'll see 2750 with the Original.

I intend to set up three targets at 1,2,300 yards and put three shots into each to compare trajectories and groups. I will post results.

Good lord man that is impressive - any of them - but especially that 310. How's the recoil on a rig like that?

Those are some excellent results at that range...
Pretty cool stuff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Species8472

Good lord man that is impressive - any of them - but especially that 310. How's the recoil on a rig like that?

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Thanks what surprises me is how close the claimed numbers of the 310 are to actual that I'm getting. Velocity is very close to table at 100 and so is drop at 300.

For recoil, here is what the calculator says;

Recoil
Input Data
Charge Weight:	70.0 gr	Muzzle Velocity:	2740.0 ft/s
Firearm Weight:	12.0 lb	Bullet Weight:	310.0 gr
Output Data
Recoil Velocity:	14.0 ft/s	Recoil Energy:	36.7 ft•lbs
Recoil Impulse:	5.2 lb•s

Considering a 12 gauge 3 inch shell with 7.5 pound gun pumps out over 50, it isn't that bad....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fratri

Those are some excellent results at that range...
Pretty cool stuff

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Thanks. I may also try an FTX 250 grain that would be 2930 fps if I can figure out how to swage it without breaking my press lever like I did last time.... I'll stick with these three above for this round.

I'm not sure I am understanding correctly - is the BC of the leftmost bullet higher than the BC of the middle bullet? I wouldn't expect that (short, stubby bullet, flat tip, flat base).
You said you are shooting ONE inch at 300 yards? That is crazy! Is this with the smokeless muzzle loader you recently built and described in a thread?

Sounds like fun Jack. Maybe the Barnes being solid copper boogered up the annealing attempt.

I'm guessing with a flat base(and inside 400-500 yards) yds and the pointed meplat and long ogive, the APB will be very accurate easy to 300 yds.

Barnes makes excellent bullets however and it should be close in accuracy but king in expansion.

Also, it would be interesting to see the velocities at intervals out to 100+ yards in order to calculate the B.C. just to see how honest the manufacturers are.

Have fun, can't wait to see you results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rf2

I'm not sure I am understanding correctly - is the BC of the leftmost bullet higher than the BC of the middle bullet? I wouldn't expect that (short, stubby bullet, flat tip, flat base).
You said you are shooting ONE inch at 300 yards? That is crazy! Is this with the smokeless muzzle loader you recently built and described in a thread?

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Yes according to the manufacturer the original shows a higher BC. I am having a hard time believing it myself. It's been around a heck of a long time - maybe BS numbers from years past?

Yes the last bullets shot at 300 were a tad under an inch using the smokeless build. Velocity spread was 1 fps over three shots. That's ridiculous. Going back to do the test as described above and compare. If it's repeatable the socom may be the winner. The one hole group at 100 was around .25". As a hunting round I want it in the dirt at 500 as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skypilot

Sounds like fun Jack. Maybe the Barnes being solid copper boogered up the annealing attempt.

I'm guessing with a flat base(and inside 400-500 yards) yds and the pointed meplat and long ogive, the APB will be very accurate easy to 300 yds.

Barnes makes excellent bullets however and it should be close in accuracy but king in expansion.

Also, it would be interesting to see the velocities at intervals out to 100+ yards in order to calculate the B.C. just to see how honest the manufacturers are.

Have fun, can't wait to see you results.

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You might be right about annealing. I don't honestly know. A fellow online did an expansion test on the socom and it was very impressive.

You are are on the pin with the 310's.
The 310's are considerably more expensive (3X) but accuracy is ridiculous. I've ordered 50 more from Luke.

I need two of those velocity cams that are available but my budget is almost dead for guns this year.....

Anybody got a couple they want to sell?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Yes according to the manufacturer the original shows a higher BC. I am having a hard time believing it myself. It's been around a heck of a long time - maybe BS numbers from years past?

Yes the last bullets shot at 300 were a tad under an inch using the smokeless build. Velocity spread was 1 fps over three shots. That's ridiculous. Going back to do the test as described above and compare. If it's repeatable the socom may be the winner. The one hole group at 100 was around .25". As a hunting round I want it in the dirt at 500 as well.



You might be right about annealing. I don't honestly know. A fellow online did an expansion test on the socom and it was very impressive.

You are are on the pin with the 310's.
The 310's are considerably more expensive (3X) but accuracy is ridiculous. I've ordered 50 more from Luke.

I need two of those velocity cams that are available but my budget is almost dead for guns this year.....

Anybody got a couple they want to sell?

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I wonder if you could make any video camera work that you could set the frame rate manually(like 30 frames per second). That would be 66 fps per frame on a 2000 fps bullet at 300 yds with a beginning MV of ~2500.

I have cameras that might wok. Just not sure if we could capture what we need to calculate downrange velocity with them. The Labradar does grab several velocities up to 100 yards right?

Anyway not trying to get in your experiment, just let me know if I can be of any help as I'm only a couple miles away.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skypilot

I wonder if you could make any video camera work that you could set the frame rate manually(like 30 frames per second). That would be 66 fps per frame on a 2000 fps bullet at 300 yds with a beginning MV of ~2500.

I have cameras that might wok. Just not sure if we could capture what we need to calculate downrange velocity with them. The Labradar does grab several velocities up to 100 yards right?

Anyway not trying to get in your experiment, just let me know if I can be of any help as I'm only a couple miles away.

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Hi

I may be able to track that bullet to 150 with the labradar.

This Saturday's test will be as short as possible due to time constraints but if you feel like giving this a more in depth look let's pick a day and give it a try. Your knowledge would be appreciated!

We really could try any rifle at the same....

1" at 300 yards with a Muzzleloader, sounds like a world record

Haha no not really. The 358 I sold was capable of that. Is this result regular and consistently repeatable? - unlikely....

Would be satisfied with consistent MOA performance at 300. My whole objective was to achieve this and I got there. Now which bullet to use for this deer season? That's the big question.

I've shot several 2 inch or better groups at 300 with this ml and guys in the US seem to achieve this and better quite regularly.

I'll send you a PM Jack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Here is the lineup;


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...psxhtzok0n.jpg


From rom left to right;

Barnes 300 grain original, .291 BC

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...ps8mwhglvt.png

Barnes 300 grain .458 Socom TTSX, .236 BC

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...pst6fy8q9c.png

310 APB from ASG, .430 BC

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...ps9ejujgxu.png


I've done a bit of shooting with the 310 and 300 socom. The velocity shown is actual and the 310 shoots considerably flatter and slightly faster than the lighter socom. I tried annealing the socom to get better obturation but that was to no avail. I think that less bearing surface to the lands may account fo the difference in speed but that's just a guess. Accuracy was good though at just over an inch on the 300 yard target and single hole at 100.

I am am hoping I'll see 2750 with the Original.

I intend to set up three targets at 1,2,300 yards and put three shots into each to compare trajectories and groups. I will post results.

---

I believe you're mistaken with the first bullet, the barnes originals in .458 are a spire pt. the one in the pic resembles the hornady .458 300 grainers.
Great shooting though.. keep it up.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/barnes_original_300grain1.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smokeeter

I believe you're mistaken with the first bullet, the barnes originals in .458 are a spire pt. the one in the pic resembles the hornady .458 300 grainers.
Great shooting though.. keep it up.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/barnes_original_300grain1.jpg

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Thank you for pointing that out. I checked and they are 300 originals in .458 but FP so part 30612 instead of what I thought I had ordered 30611. I had no idea there were two originals in 300 grain....

BC is .227 on the FP

I will still go ahead with the test anyway. I reached out to the supplier to see if he can send me the right ones!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Thank you for pointing that out. I checked and they are 300 originals in .458 but FP so part 30612 instead of what I thought I had ordered 30611. I had no idea there were two originals in 300 grain....

BC is .227 on the FP

I will still go ahead with the test anyway. I reached out to the supplier to see if he can send me the right ones!

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Now the BCs are starting to make more sense.

I also had no idea there were two versions of the 300 gr barnes originals, I've only used the spire point. It's a very good bullet with a heavy jacket , and holds together very well for big bodied animals. Because of that it doesn't obturate as easily as the ASG's or Parkers which is why they get fantastic groups, their downside is they tend to be more fragile.

I feel your pain in searching for the best hunting bullet, especially since we have a limited variety of .458 dia. bullets available. Which is why I resorted into tweaking and modifying bullets to suit my needs.
I've found that the construction of the standard ( not the mag.) XTP is a very good bullet for both accuracy (obturation) and terminal performance on game.

But how do you modify them?

I've seen pics of your xtp modified and they look awesome!

I think I remember that you made a die.... or was it some other way....

yes I have custom forming dies. the .458 bumps up standard .452 dia bullets to .458 and a nose punch forms a spire pt.
I've had very good results with using .452 dia bullets and smooth sized to fit the barrel, just need to use a veggie or fiber wad between the bullet and powder.
The only reason I bumped the bullets to .458 is to use the full forming die.
I really don't know if the spire pt. affects accuracy out to 300 yrds. I feel it will make a noticeable improvement beyond that distance,I think the reformed tip does help with controlling expansion on game. Plus they just look better and with that help gain confidence in your equipment which should be an overall improvement.

for those that haven't seen the mod.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...psvqtvey50.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...psjkdcordw.jpg

Thanks for sharing. They look like a great bullet.

Have you ever tried forming a spire point on a Hornady 300 HP bullet?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Thanks for sharing. They look like a great bullet.

Have you ever tried forming a spire point on a Hornady 300 HP bullet?

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yes, I started reforming the hollow pts. I was actually trying to make bullets similar to the barnes originals ( spire pt) . I can reform any lead core bullet. I'm using a 4 ton hydraulic press with my dies.

Here is the test. I used 310 AP and 300 TTSX and 250 Mono. I didn't bothe with the flat nose original

Today was bad wind. 33km with 58 km gusts so less than ideal. Both targets are shot with main crosshairs so that drop can be seen. Very interesting results given the windy conditions!

First up the 100 yard target!

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...pscubzu0xe.jpg

Next up 300 yard target and again no compensation for wind or drop. You can see where I aimed and where I dropped.


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...ps2gyqwmd8.jpg

You can see what reticle I'd have to use for each bullet and the 310 gets the nod for accuracy and less wind drift. 310 was pushing 2740fps while the 300 was at 2726fps avg

I figured it was a going to be a complete waste of time but actually it was excellent!

That is impressive given the wind we had today. That is going to be a great ml round. Heck I have to dial ~12 " @ 300m in 20 mph wind with a modern CF .308 @ about 2400 fps.

Did you try the doppler in the high wind today? Is that how you got the speeds?

Thanks and yes the Labradar comes with on every range trip these days. Just too handy! It tracked out to 100 but I didn't try for longer distance. What surprised me is how much velocity the 310 carried over the the 250 Mono at 100. 2499 verses 2350. The Mono started out at 2870 and the 310 at 2740....

We also noted the following;

Three triple 7 pellets in my buddies 50 cal push a 300 grain projectile 1930 fps

12 gauge 385GN accutip slugs get pushed around significantly in that wind at 100 yards plus kick a hell of a lot harder than my 458 with a 300 pill!

So does a 20 gauge 2 3/4 accutip but less so.