http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/otta...iple-1.3809876
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I think every Ontario resident, should apply, as an indigenous resident.
Wow............that is a lot land.
Seems fair to me.
Which part and why do you think so?Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnoc511
What changes?
What about all the other land claims. They should settle it all.
You can sure see why guys were selling their hunt camps up near the Park at bargain prices a few years ago.
I m not trying to start a war but I was born and raised in this country / province what r my rights and privileges
The Canadian Charter of Rights and FreedomsQuote:
Originally Posted by overtheir
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/Const/page-15.html
What changes is Eastern Ontario between Algonquin Park and the Ottawa River is now primarily owned by the Algonquins. They have timber rights, water rights, mineral rights, and waterfront on the Ottawa River to develop. They control access to what used to be Crown Land. Just because they aren't kicking private landowners off doesn't mean they aren't going to control access to large portions of the land. The non FN hunt is over as we know it for moose and deer (it has been for years as MikePal implied). The FN hunt first and receive the vast majority of the tags.
This is a huge ATV and snowmobiling area and users may fine there will be a cost to recreate through the FN land.
The other thing is many FN groups don't feel represented within this settlement. Will the new Treaty really silence the FN and achieve harmony or will we still have renegades that don't comply with the treaty?
It makes very little difference to SW Ontario that's why there hasn't been an uproar. It's like the topic of windmills when discussed with Toronto or Ottawa residents.
Stay tuned folks and hope your local FN band isn't watching this multimillion dollar settlement.
They are Jim, that's why Chief Kirby Whiteduck has insisted on some geneological evidence of FN blood. They left that part of the decision to the FN themselves. Trouble is nobody seems sure as to what fraction is too little to say you're FN. Currently any fraction will do as far as I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
It's not as difficult anymore....DNA testing is done to identify children etc that would be entitled to Band Status.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanO
some info on how that is done: http://www.ammsa.com/publications/wi...ian-status-lim
All that land for 7 to 8000 Algonquins not to mention the minimum 300 million they will collect as well.
"We were once wealthy, we lived well off the land," Kirby Whiteduck, the chief of the Algonquins of Pikwakanagan, the largest First Nations reserve in the territory, said. "Then we were begging for a piece of land. The agreement-in-principle is more of a weight off our shoulders, not so much of a celebration."
Are they going to go back in time and live off the land again?? Of course not . they will continue to exploit the government and everyone else that this agreement will allow them to with impunity.
I'm sorry but we cant be held hostage for things that happened so long ago .
Well now that they have what they wanted outside of that area they should have to pay full tax.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnoc511
If they sell to Canadians on Canadian Soil they should be charged taxes.
Pesronally I think it was all a bunch of crap because pretty much every single race has been taken advantaged of by another race.
If they now own and control all this land then the Province of Ontario should stop providing electricity, fire, police, road maintenance both summer and winter. They want self governance then give it to them. "All of it".
Completely Agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
I wonder if they run their land like the Quebec government runs the ZEC system. All access roads will have gates and people tending the gate. You'll need a permit to use their land. I noticed they cherry picked pieces of the crown land that would be worth huge bucks if leased or sold. eg. Menet Lake, Waterloo Lake, Big Bissett Lake etc. South shore of Ottawa river from Bissetts to Deux Riviere. All very marketable land not the centre of the bush somewhere.
They may find the land not as marketable as they think. Drive down the shore from Sauble Beach and count the cottages for sale. Many are on First Nations leases. I would never invest in treaty lands. They decide to change their minds in 10yrs you will have a problem.
Or they decide not to renew the lease at the last minute the way they did up on the Peninsula. They gave them a very short time to remove contents and or the building, then it became Band property. Gates went up and security was hired.
I've been following this for years. For the most part hope to keep my personal thoughts on the greater topic of what to do about FNs/claims to myself. Aka should we, do we owe them, if so what etc etc.
So trying to avoid a lot.
1) I can't help but think this will be a precedent,vthat many others throughout Cda look at. It's a huge chunk of land for really just a few. With all kinds of possible problems/land mines. Many speculated way back, that a number of the blocks/areas were um, chosen, for their economic value, aka development. Is just one such potential blow up/problem.
2)) DanO. Re gates. I seem to recall one of the higher ups in the MNR responsible for (I think) APP resigning/retiring (possibly?) over it. He felt there was little "co-operation" about the process. There's a video out there somewhere of his speech in it. He also in that video talked about APP, the old and current logging roads. Felt they should be decommissioned (bridges taken out, berms put in etc). Basically concerned that FNs will now have highways and access to the park where...
Re the Bruce
a very good friend of mine got caught in that fiasco. Family cottage for many many years....received a letter just a couple weeks before x-mas informing them they had to Jan 1 to get any belongings, and vacate. Lots of people who over years/decades did some work on places, more
suffice to say, we never, ever mention land claims /leases around him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
With this agreement,that Charter may be the biggest joke of all and all done by Liberals. Gee,what could possibly go wrong?
Couldn't find the video, but did find this.
worth the read.
http://www.ofah.org/zonef/wp-content...-11-2013-1.pdf
I will speculate that within short order APP will be full of gill nets and the moose and deer will be in sharp decline and it wouldn't be a stretch for any landowners in the claim area be forced to pay a tax to the FN for the privilege of staying on their land. Or worse like what happened up on the Bruce. Time will tell but this just stinks Plain and simple.
What I don't think anyone on here is realizing is that this doesn't make the area of the land claim a "reserve".
The 300 Million is payment in lieu of the land already under private ownership etc. Private lands remain private lands, municipalities within the land claim remain as they are. The only impact this has is on Crown land within the designated area, with regards to resources. The MNRF are still going to actively manage those areas.
I own a cottage within this area, and have been involved in the process and the claim. It isn't as nefarious as many on here are alluding to.
Now don't go spoiling their good rant with facts ...LOL...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
Sorry Mike, You're right...fellas please continue the rant.....Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
So,doesn't that just mean the $300M guarantees property owners can't be turfed,BUT,the properties are essentially "landlocked"? No matter which way you cut it,BBD,that's not a position I would want to find myself in. Nothing has stopped the FN from blockading the area accesses and telling the government to pound salt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
Exactly. If a road goes through crown land they could very well put up a toll booth just to spite people. Their track record isn't exactly comforting. Think Caledonia and the Bruce. As for fishing and hunting within that area you can expect access won't be given for free if at all. The CO's likely won't waste time in there and the rapid destruction will be inevitable. Then this sets a legal precedence so watch the other land claims pop up like mushrooms. This will affect logging/timber costs as well as other resource extraction industries. Not that you know, we are a resource based economy in this country.
Ok. Very clear that you haven't read the agreement. It is a massive document which is unlike anything else that has been done previously.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Short answer, no. No landowner within the claim is landlocked. Again this DOES NOT CREATE A RESERVE.
The municipalities and infrastructure within the area remain unchanged. The municipal act is still in place, and its business as usual. Osgoode Hall, and the Law Society of Upper Canada held legal briefings on this treaty, knowing they had Lawyers operating within the borders, and the inevitability of questions. From what I've seen on here, no one has attended those briefings, nor have they sought legal counsel on it.
Again. It applies to the management of resources within the claim area only. FN do not have any control, nor inclination to do so beynd that. The system of redress for issues under the treaty is very well spelled out, there was a reason why ALL FN communities had to agree, and it wasn't done by a majority vote.
I not only have read the legal briefings provided to OCJ Judges with respect to the treaty, but have also spoken with legal counsel on the treaty as well.
But please do continue based on a 300 word article published in a news outlet.
With the Bruce the natives owned the land and the cottagers leased the cottages. They owned the cottages but not the land they sat on.Thats why you can buy a cottage for cheap and pay 5-6 grand a year in lease fees.
Wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Caledonia is an area that is in dispute. Bruce is a reserve.
The Treaty specifically addresses access and management of crown land. It remains the purview of the MNRF.
Again, blockades and restrictions are not in the table. FN agreement was a crucial part of the Treaty.
This may be the case up until they decide they aren't happy with this agreement and decide to ignore parts of it. I wish you well and hope this is not the case but I doubt it will be long term. First Nations don't have a history of sticking together or respecting agreements anymore than the white man. Trudough and Wynne signed off on this. What could go wrong? :ninja:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
You're certainly correct that I haven't read the entire agreement,but,seeing that past performance is a very accurate predictor of future performance and FN has an absolutely abysmal track record,I'll just sit back and wait. It won't take long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
What I think is interesting, is that many folks think that FN will break the Treaty. Yes, they have a very poor track record, particularly when they were frustrated. However, the signing of this treaty actually serves to redress much of that frustration. Again, this was agreed to by a massive amount of groups, representing several distinct FN communities. This is a Treaty, not a claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Wait and see? Perhaps. I'm not quite as uncertain as some however.
Rant's mike? Well I guess meaningful discussions.....:)
I don't think the OFAH who has listed pages of concerns are ranting.
I don't think Jack Winter, formerly of the MNR in charge of APP is ranting either.in fact I'm willing to bet he had a lot to do/say about Wolves and Coyotes. So which is it. Is he just an uninformed hot head, that's ranting without facts and information. Or is he someone who spent 40 years overseeing APP?
*****
BBD
what kind of track record do the MNR and or FNs have with respect to
A) monitoring game, monitoring activity in and off reserves.
B) enforcing things/infractions
So even though it's not a reserve. well see Nipising, the Fishery around Owen Sound, Moose and more.
and with respect to many other things.
Railway lines being blockaded
developments in Caledonia being hijacked. People/homeowners begging McGuinty or the OPP to enforce the law.....and
/crickets
Hydro lines from Niagara being blocked and deep sized.
and on
and on
and on
and on
in short "guarantees" that "don't worry, about A to Z"
arent worth much unfortunately.
Imo if there's any "one" person, or side, or organization worth listening to, it's Jack Winters. And do note there are FNs people sounding alarm bells to.
i can't find the video of his presentation which was in depth and listed many reasons why people should be concerned. But did link some of it in the above article.
Why? Well obviously his back ground......just as obviously he is fair minded, a moderate, believes we should be doing things.......
and yet why would a very senior person within the MNR speak out?
well I suppose being retired and not having to answer to his political masters anymore.....might have something to do with it.
How did they find how much land to give. Wasn't the whole country native land or did they only stay on part of it.
With that in mind, when I was getting up to speed on the issue a few years back because we were looking to buy a hunt camp in the affected area, a concern we found had to do with the possibility of them selling a parcel of land given to them under the treaty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
Do you happen to know how that was resolved; will they be allowed to sell off property to developers etc. ?
Crown Land ( as it will still be known) will not be able to be "parceled off". Properties remain sovereign within same. One should also note that much of the language is around "resources". Timber rights, and mineral rights are still subject to the same controls and approvals as they were under previously. The benefits of those resources belong to the FN.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Any FN community identified under the treaty would not only have to seek all FN stakeholders to make a change, but then the same approvals that any other entity would be subject to.
BBG. The FN have the authority to develop the Treaty Land themselves correct? So they can take the money from the various royalties and utilize that to build resorts and marinas etc.?
They have had the sole right to hunt and fish the east side of APP for over 15 years. They do their best to regulate the moose hunt and the fishing in this area but FN have a habit of not obeying their own guidelines and regulations. They do have some enforcement but they have no legal framework to charge the individual unless they bring in the MNR and utilize the Ontario courts. The hunt is not as well run as the non-FN hunt and the harvest is backwards. They determine a quota for moose and then issue as many tags as they Band wants. They harvest until the quota is reached. Sounds great but Band members don't have to abide by the quota and the tag holders harvest what ever they want then look around for the correct tag to legitimize the harvest.
BTW I'm not FN but my kids and wife are part of the settlement claim.
I haven't done the homework you have because I don't need a coronary! Or a divorce!
Haha, true enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanO
The main difference DanO is that this is not like any other process that has occurred thus far, in the province, nor the country.
This Treaty was a document that was created in good faith by both parties. This isn't just one band, it is several, and all had to reach a consensus, or it didn't happen.
Are there going to be some growing pains? Probably. Is it creating a huge reserve as many uneducated folks think? Not hardly.
Let's also keep in mind that the bands in the treaty represent a very small amount of people in a huge geographical area.
See, that's the thing. The Crown areas within the treaty area could possibly be developed, but not likely, as it is not only subject to approval from all signatories on the treaty, but also the usual checks and balances that would be in place with a private developer.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanO
Further to my last. There is an interactive map which outlines the settlement lands that are being proposed. When you look at it, with reference to the crown land use atlas, it actually is very small.
For example, the crown land areas near my cottage in Arden ON, aren't even considered a part of the settlement lands proposed.
http://www.tanakiwin.com/imap.html
Well I'm not so fortunate. My camp is above Rolphton near Stonecliffe. I fish Grants Creek and hunt in the Bissett Creek area. I also hunt Big Gibson Lake near Bissett Creek. Guess I'll just make sure my wife or sons are with me. LOL. My BIL hunts the area west of Pembroke near Round Lake which is all landclaim. This will impact alot of Ottawa people since the love the crownland around Bissett Creek and it's become more and more crowded.
I didn’t really want to be here today. And I did everything within my power to try and avoid being here today……….And the reason is two-fold. First of all, I don’t like public speaking. I’d rather have a root canal and a vasectomy at the same time than stand in front of a group. The second reason is, I had 37 great years working for the Ministry of Natural Resources. And I don’t…....…..I don’t feel really good about standing on a stage and being a critic about my former employer. But I think I have to be and the reason is.......
~John Winters 2013
Well worth the 58 minutes of your life.
http://www.algonquinlandclaim.ca/maps.php
To stream it
Or download the file
John Winter's Conference Presentation
I knew you'd find the speech JB. I have seen the speech. It does make me nervous as well. I worked for MNR in Algonquin Park for 4 summers doing many things. I share his concerns. I portaged in 9 portages to get to what used to be a good walleye lake only to find a fleet of FN boats launched off of the closed road on the other side of the lake. Guess how the fishing was??? They are just as conservation minded as the non-FN.
I noticed the Quebec first nations are trying to get the Agreement stopped. Quebec must know they're next and the Quebec side of the river hasn't really changed since Samuel de Champlain paddled it. I doubt the FN only used the Ontario side of the river. There's a lot more undeveloped land to grab on their side of the river.
Funny (not really) and I hope no-one misreads what I'm about to say.
While everyone is looking at the gob smocking, eye popping amount of $ ( 550,000). I worked in a business when I used to trade 100million, 200mm, 500mm dollars worth this/that a day. Handled 100s of millions of dollars a day. Flew to NY and MTL with 20,40,50million in bearer bonds (cash essentially). I became well best word I can think of is jaded 5mm, 10mm "petty cash" sometimes almost embarrassed to call dealers and ask if they had 8million in BAs to sell. My sister was once on the phone with me while I was talking to someone about 40mm cash or something....Her words to me "how can you be so non challant about it".
$550m is "a lot" to me.
While everyone is focusing on lands and hunt camps outside APP.
Seems like everyone has forgotten about APP. What it is, why it is, why its a crown jewel of parks everywhere in the world...Forgotten about the wolves and coyotes we can no longer hunt. Why because they are so precious........Apparently not, well not with this anyways.
Once settled, its forever. Enshrined....
And there is so much "trust us, we'll handle it later" and more.
And as mentioned, well track records of a few things not the least of which is this admins ability to do anything even remotely well...Or Nippising or Cloys off Owen sound and gill nets and the law/politicians too afraid to enforce the law there or in Caledonia.... or and as he said "Trailer parks think it won't happen......it has, will and does"
Just head up north now.(aka Moose season and all the crap going on, left behind etc, etc etc).....
/edit damn auto spellers
I wonder once they sign the deal if the FN have their traditional rights restricted to the land they've acquired. Their activities throughout the rest of the Crown Land would then revert back to the Laws of Ontario. Otherwise what's the point of this whole exercise? I realize they get the harvest rights within the newly acquired land but it might be a good deal if they then adhere to the laws and seasons in the rest of the Crown Land that surrounds their land.
Guess I'm hoping for the best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
there is some myths here
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/taxe...hink-1.2971040
fn people pay more than you think