Old Dog Needs New Tricks?

Okay, so I'm not really that old but I've been shooting muzzleloader for 18 years, and for 18 years, I've been doing things the way I was taught without questioning it. This isn't usually my style.

I'd like to hear some thoughts on the setup and advice moving forward.

Thompson Center Black Diamond 50 cal (purchased new in 1998!)
No. 10 CCI Percussion caps
90gr Goex FFG
44cal 240gr Hornady XTP Hollow Point w/ 50cal green sabot
Open sights

I only shoot within 100 yards and do some "dogging", which is why I've avoided a scope to date.

I'm happy to hear any suggestions you have, whether you think I should use more powder or that the gun would be better used as a decoy weight. Thanks in advance!

Before you can cure it, you need to know what happened.

How did you 'lose' the deer ? Not finding it doesn't necessarily mean you didn't hit it well. Some deer run pretty far with a double lung shot and ML bullets don't always exit the deer on the far side, so you don't get much of a blood trail.

There could be dozens of reason, and usually when we lose a deer we agonize over them all...









Di

I'm not into muzzleloaders, but you've already eluded to some things regarding the shooting.
There is the rifle and there is you. The more you can dissociate the two, the easier it is to tackle the problem.
Shoot with a GOOD rest, perhaps a scope (don't even need to sight it in as long as the shots are on the paper). If you don't shoot a lot with open sights, it's difficult to know it it's you or the rifle.

Thanks for the replies folks,

I was actually looking for advice on what I can do to improve my gun setup rather than my hunting style. I've edited my original post accordingly.

sounds like the gun shots fine...

I personally prefer dynamit Nobel caps. I also prefer a 45 cal bullet over a 44. But if your rifle goes boom each time and shoots well why change anything?

Thanks folks,

I guess I'm questioning the setup because I don't always get a pass-through. The bullet is sometimes caught under the skin on the 'exit' side of the animal. I know that ideally you want most of the bullet's energy to dissipated in the animal so not having a pass-through isn't necessarily all that bad. I once had a deer run 400 yards on a clean broadside double-lung shot (over open ground), so I can't help but think there is room for improvement.

I guess I just don't know enough about muzzleloading, even though I've been doing it for so long. I think 240 gr is on the light side, but what advantages/disadvantages are found in a heavier bullet? Also, what advantages/disadvantages are there in a 45 cal bullet vs. a 44? Why do people like the pyrodex pellets (is there an accuracy benefit or is it just ease of use)? Is 90 grain light for powder?

On the gun itself: This gun has seen a lot of miles but not a ton of shooting. I've probably put 150 bullets down the bore in 18 years. Is the reasonable life expectancy of a muzzleloader determined by shots fired, or should I be thinking about age and bore rust? The breech plug is seized, so I can't get a good look down the barrel (yes, I tried soaking it in WD-40 for a month and then hitting it with the impact). I can't shoot MOA accuracy with open sites, but I don't have trouble staying on target either. What are your perspectives on dragging a scope through the bush?

it's always hard to teach an old dog a new trick, even if it's a simple one - like putting a scope on (like a 1.something to 4 something zoom)
LOL

Part of your issue with no pass through is bullet type and velocity.

Nothing wrong with XTP as in Extreme Terminal Performance bullets. They dump everything they have in the animal. I don't use them for hunting as I prefer a complete pass through wound channel.

Pr bullets makes very effective projectiles and honestly not one I've shot with them has even taken another step. I've moved away from them as well because the velocity I'm shooting now is beyond what they are useable for. I'd try a Dead Center 260 grain if I were you.

I agree with above, put a scope on it but in the end you are killing deer well so not much wrong as far as I can see. If you do put a scope on don't cheap out as ML are very hard on optics!

Hope that helps

They make small bore lights that just slide down the barrel, inexpensive and absolutely necessary if purchasing second hand muzzleloaders.if you get one you will soon see if your bore is ok or toast. 45 cal bullets have always been more accurate for me, 44 cal just never seemed to shoot well. I have never recovered a bullet, they all blow right thru but I prefer 300 grain min and will usually buy the heaviest bullet I can get. I don't shoot any further than 125 yards so it is not really a concern. PR bullets do have great terminal performance

If you're used to using Black powder and want to switch to a cleaner 'substitute' powder like Pyrodex, be aware, by actual weight, it is not the same. 100 grains measured by volume of Goex FFg is about 101.3 grains by weight. 100 grains measured by volume of Pyrodex RS is about 72.5 grains by weight. So you would have to play around on the range to figure it out. By the By...90 grs of Goex may actually be on the heavy side.

Most guys use pellets for the convenience, but I find loose powder will give you better accuracy with 80-90 grs of Triple 7.

I used to do the dogging for the camp (ohh to be young again) and I hated having a scope on it...never trusted that it didn't take a whack and that it would be holding zero. So I stuck with open sights, but as I got older and the eye sight began to wane and I could not longer focus on the rear iron sight, so I was forced to put on a scope.

Small shotgun scopes work well, as Big Jack mentioned, they are built to take a kicking. I also found Red Dots, which I prefer for fast target acquisition, are great for bush hunting, but have to be monitored to ensure they are holding their zero.

As far a bullets....I like a heavy (300+ gr), soft lead bullet for short range shooting. Prefer to have max energy expended in the body cavity and not too concerned about an exit wound. Most deer I've hit drop where they were standing or within sight. Never been an issue in 20 yrs.

A new gun...ML's aren't a huge investment, a lot of them they go on sale regulatory for around $300 and will hit MOA at 100 yrds out of the box. Great for short range hunting. Maybe a change would help with your confidence, which is very important when you see that 'Rack' in front of you.

Folks,

I really appreciate the wisdom and experience being shared with me. I had no idea that 90 grains might be considered heavy when I see folks dropping 3 pyrodex pills down the barrel.

It sounds like I should be scoping out the old 'Black Diamond'. I have another ML (old TC White Mountain) which is a stubby little gun and easy to carry in the bush. Maybe I'll do the two-gun method and drag the White Mountain through the bush and keep the scoped unit for stand hunting. Or maybe I'll make some room in the safe and add another to the fleet (any recommendations in the low price end?).

I'll also try a heavier bullet. Sorry, but I'm going to dumb it down and see if I understand. Heavier means it will drop faster at long distance but pack more punch inside the 100 yard line? Correct me if that doesn't make sense. If that's the case, I should have switched years ago. I'm a bow hunter at heart and don't lift the gun if its out past 100 yards.

Many thanks again!

Ben

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Originally Posted by benjhind

I really appreciate the wisdom and experience being shared with me. I had no idea that 90 grains might be considered heavy when I see folks dropping 3 pyrodex pills down the barrel.

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Hey Ben....most people I know who still use Goex are using flint/side locks and most of them have found their sweet spot in around 60 grs. Black powder is known not to burn completely, even with their longer barrels. In most cases a lot of the powder load comes out the end un-burnt.

The guys using 3 pellets (if there are 50's) are not only going against Hodgden Load Warnings, they're also wasting a lot of powder. Again in the shorter in-lines ML's, a lot of powder is left un-burnt and get's spit out the end.

I bought a .58 cal Musketoon this spring and will be using Goex powder and a 495gr Conical for the hunt this Dec. I'm not expecting an exit wound, but also not expecting to need one :)

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...pstjqrlzmx.jpg

Mike, I am going to have to disagree with you about the unburnt powder. Black powder, pyrodex and t7 are really "dirty" powders and what comes out the end of the barrel is nothing more than residue. I have had numerous side locks and find that 85-90 grains is a great load and a good place to start in load development. That's just my opinion and nothing more, no disrespect intended.

Oh no problem...I questioned it too when we started shooting T-7 and were working up loads. I had read that if you put a bed sheet out in front of your shooting position you could see how much was being blown out. So we did. Sure enough once we approached the 100gr (volume) the amount of powder/residue (stuff not converted to gas) landing on the sheet increased greatly.

Randy Wakeman wrote;

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In black powder the fuel is carbon; we are just burning charcoal. Black powder is horribly inefficient, as only about 50% of its mass turns into gas. The rest is solid residue that is forced out the muzzle as white smoke or left in the bore as corrosive fouling crud.

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In the same article he makes the point about the 'residue'

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Second, as we previously mentioned, roughly half of the carbon-based propellant mass is left behind as solid residue. This inert residue must necessarily be pushed out of the bore by gas. From a recoil standpoint, this solid unburned residue is considered part of the ejecta. Approximately half of the carbon-based powder charge can be added to the bullet and sabot weight to calculate free recoil. With Accurate Arms 5744, there is no such mass of fouling, as virtually all the propellant converts to gas. Therefore, there is much less weight of additional ejecta to push out the barrel, and less recoil as a result.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/difference_black_powders.htm

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Which all makes sense..there is diminished returns on anything...much to the chagrin of the 'magnum' crowds belief system :)

Just saying for folks who read you post Mike, 5744 is not a black powder or substitute. It will blow a bp ML to pieces if you use it....

It is smokeless and I know you know this but somebody might misinterpret your post.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Just saying for folks who read you post Mike, 5744 is not a black powder or substitute.

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Thanks for the heads up Jack.....it's noted and explained in the link to the article, used for comparison....but I should have not used it I guess out of context. Good point.

Again, great information and article! To be clear, my friends using 3 pyrodex pellets are shooting TC Encores, which I see the article specifically names as being tested for that load.

I should also add triple seven to the list of things I need to try. I might even have a part-can in the gun cabinet (I got a bunch of powder from someone getting out of muzzleloading). My old TC White Mountain is a side lock, is there a reason why I would use Goex in it over Triple Seven @MikePal, noting your comment?

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Originally Posted by benjhind

Again, great information and article! To be clear, my friends using 3 pyrodex pellets are shooting TC Encores, which I see the article specifically names as being tested for that load.

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I agree..I have seen the same specs, but is there really any gain or need ..a small gain in velocity for a loss of accuracy, especially for short range shooting?

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Originally Posted by benjhind

My old TC White Mountain is a side lock, is there a reason why I would use Goex in it over Triple Seven @MikePal, noting your comment?

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My Musketoon will not ignite T-7 or Pyrodex. The musket cap doesn't seem to have enough spark. Works great with Goex FFg though.

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Originally Posted by benjhind

Again, great information and article! To be clear, my friends using 3 pyrodex pellets are shooting TC Encores, which I see the article specifically names as being tested for that load.

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A fellow I know recently got into hunting with a muzzle-loader and bought a TC Encore. He started out with 3 pyrodex pellets on the recommendation of the salesman. After sighting in, he wasn't overly satisfied with the accuracy but figured that it was probably a muzzle-loader thing, the best that could be expected. He managed to get a shot at a deer that fall and was very lucky to kill it, as the shot placement was not good. In addition to the deer he got himself a nice "magnum eyebrow". I would guess the poor hit was probably a result of the flinch he developed while sighting in. He now shoots with 2 pellets and has noticed a big drop in recoil and a big increase in accuracy.

While the capability to shoot magnum loads probably sells more guns, 99% of hunters in this province probably don't need it.

So I looked in my treasure chest and found a couple tins of Goex "Clear Shot" FFG which I will likely try out this week - Any thoughts on this powder?

I also found some Jim Shokey's Gold FFFG. Does this have any place in a .50 cal or is this something you'd use in a flint lock pan?

I like Goex, but it is dirty...requires a lot of cleaning after, but personally I don't mind spending the time working with the guns at the bench.

The Shocky Gold (American Pioneer) has the reputation of being one of the worst powders ever marketed...I've never used it myself, so will only go by what I have read:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/american_pioneer_powder.htm

I have never had a problem with regular goex. I'm a hunter not much of a target shooter so if I'm ramming a 6th bullet down the bore that task will pale in comparison to the amount of skinning and butchering I have to do! I'll see what this 'clear shot' stuff is like.

When I see Jim Shockey on a product I normally head for the hills. Glad to see the rule still applies here. It was free so I'm not out anything.

Thanks again for the info.

There used to be a fellow on the forum called Golden Lake Pete. He highly recommended clear shot so I think it will work well for you. You can use 3f in your rifles, just cut the volume back a bit. It will kick a bit harder but it will burn cleaner.

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Originally Posted by benjhind

Thanks for the replies folks,

I was actually looking for advice on what I can do to improve my gun setup rather than my hunting style. I've edited my original post accordingly.

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I guess I'm one lucky enough to have more than $10 into a setup

(refer to your smart a55 post re; $10 in other thread for reference)

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Originally Posted by standup

I guess I'm one lucky enough to have more than $10 into a setup

(refer to your smart a55 post re; $10 in other thread for reference)

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Not sure I quite get your reference standup, but it appears I've rubbed you the wrong way. I apologize. I'm just a guy who is passionate about bones, no offence intended.

My 50 cal TC New Englander does great with 80 grains FFg real Black Powder (ie two F Goex) pushing a .490 Round Ball and patch. Above 80 grains it will start to spray, below 80 grains and down to 60 grians the trajectory drops off but with a small increase in accuracy. I did not test below 60 grains as I want to keep my terminal ballistics up in the killing zone, two F tended to be better than three F at 80 grains with the transverse being true (ie 60 grains three F was better than 60 grains two F).

I also tried the maxi bullets, they improved accuracy over 80 grains FFg but at a huge increase in costs, the increase in terminal energy was not worth the extra cost IMO.

Result: .490 RB and patch using 80 grains FFg (two F) was was the cheapest most reliable setup that provided adequate accuracy for hunting.

In the 'Black Powder Manual' by Sam Fadala he discusses different weight bullets, loads, and related terminal ballistics/energy. A 50 cal bullet I believe (this is only my opinion) is the best trade off between the factors of cost, accuracy, and ballistics for hunting thin skinned game such as Deer. Using a 50 cal sabot reduces the terminal energy to that of a 45 (approx).

If you want to see the sections of his book let me know and I can scan the page(s) to you.

Edit: just realized your gun is an in-line so some of the above (ie round ball) will not apply.

Great info Marker thanks. I do have a side lock too but have never shot ball and patch. Do you shoot it through a rifled barrel or smooth bore?

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Originally Posted by benjhind

Great info Marker thanks. I do have a side lock too but have never shot ball and patch. Do you shoot it through a rifled barrel or smooth bore?

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I have a 50 cal TC New Englander and a 58 cal PH Musketoon, both are rifled and shoot RB well but shoot maxis and minis (respectively) better. My previous BP was a 45 Hawken, also with a rifled barrel which would shoot RB and maxis well. The twist of the rifling will dictate what the rifle can shoot.

Marker...nice to finally find someone with some experience shooting .58 PH Musketoon.

The manuals all say they are designed for conicals and from what I have seen they do shoot those well.

Have you tried a saboted .45 thru that barrel ? The literature with the bullet says they will have 'best' accuracy with a 1:48 twist, but since I rarely shoot past 50 yds I don't think that will have much affect. I picked up a couple dozen at PR's last sale but haven't tried them yet.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Marker...nice to finally find someone with some experience shooting .58 PH Musketoon.

The manuals all say they are designed for conicals and from what I have seen they do shoot those well.

Have you tried a saboted .45 thru that barrel ? The literature with the bullet says they will have 'best' accuracy with a 1:48 twist, but since I rarely shoot past 50 yds I don't think that will have much affect. I picked up a couple dozen at PR's last sale but haven't tried them yet.

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I tried sabots when I first got my 45 and quickly switched to patch and ball due to cost savings, never tried them (sabots) in anything else again as the maxis shoot well in my 50 and IMO are easier to use and would deliver a bigger payload (over sabots), if required.

Patch and ball out of a 50 will deliver adequate hunting accuracy at the intersection of 'cheap' and 'terminal energy' streets LOL.

In my opinion, for what that is worth.

I shoot P&B out of my .45 CVA Kentucky....sabotted bullets out of my .50 Traditions inline and now Conicals out of my .58 PH Musketoon. Nice to have a variety of ways to make smoke.

I'm just curious to find out how a sabotted .45 will shoot out of the .58 Musketoon with the 1:20 twist. As long as it don't go crazy with the velocity, I should be OK, especially at the 50 yd range.

Folks,

After all of the good advice I've received, I decided to mount a simple 4x scope and try some Hornady XTP Mag 300gr saboted bullets.

The idea was to get some more accuracy by using a scope, more knock-down power by going heavier on the bullet, and then maybe try out some of the fancy "clear shot" powder and see how it stacks up against the old tried and true Goex. I was also going to keep my second gun on hand with open iron sights for times when I'm walking through the thick stuff. That was the plan.

After mounting the scope, I slowly came to the realization that I can't clean my through the breech, since the breech plug is seized. That means to do my normal hot water clean, I'd have to remove the scope to dunk the breech. This does not sound like a good idea for maintaining accuracy. Can I pop the scope on and off and expect it to shoot the same?

I'm not feeling too bright today!

Ben

If you used a clean set of rings, tightened the scope well (loctite) and fastened to the rail or mount you should be OK. Machined surfaces allow your to remove and install with little error, as long as you snug them back together.

Thanks again Mike.

After mounting the scope last night, I rough bore sighted the gun by shining a flashlight through the breech and centering the crosshairs on the light on the wall.

I took it to the back yard to finish sighting in the scope this afternoon. After getting comfortable with it at 50 yards, I moved to 100 and my 3-shot group was 2 1/32" resting on a tree (no swabbing in between shots). This isn't any sort of marksmanship, but I'm happy with the results given that it is only a 4x scope. The gun can likely do better than that as is, but no doubt cleaning between shots wouldn't hurt either. Today I cleaned with hot water every third shot. I did not see any difference in how it shot after removing and replacing the scope during cleaning. One pleasant surprise (for my wife) is that the Clear Shot powder doesn't smell when cleaning the barrel!

Again, I'm happy with the level of accuracy I'm getting and confident that the heavier bullet will pack a little more punch. I'll be hunting with the muzzleloader next week so wish me luck.

Thanks again for all the information and advice!!

Ben

The changes paid dividends on the opener.

I scored my first ever "double" while still-hunting with the ML. First, a doe came through at 100 yards. I wasn't happy with her speed for the distance so she got a pass. I watched a nice 8-point freshen a scrape, and came in to a shooting lane at 75 yards. Boom. Great shot placement, if he was broadside. Too bad he was quartered towards me and I barely clipped lung (stupid mistake! He was walking briskly so I didn't take the time to think about shot placement, but I should have!). I reloaded and he ran into the bush. Luckily he paused and gave me time to reload before coming through behind me and I shot him again at 50 yards through the bush. He dropped on the spot, but when I fired, my ramrod fell out of the tree.

As I watched him expire, a deer approached from behind (dead downwind). He walked up and stared at the dying buck, a smaller 7-point. I stood there helpless with a quick load in one hand and my gun in the other, with no ramrod to load with. I poured the powder down the barrel, for some reason, thinking that might help??

The 7-point wandered off and I snuck down out of the stand and grabbed my ramrod. I pushed the bullet down the barrel and seated it as best I could without making any noise. Just then the little 7-point came back! I picked a good shooting lane and shot him as he came into it at 45 yards. This was a solid double-lung broadside shot, but the little bugger still managed to run 120 yards before he expired.

I think the jump from 240 to 300 grain was a good move, although I wish that little guy hadn't run so far on a double lung shot. I also enjoyed the scope for still-hunting. After the hunt, I fired my old White Mountain (240gr XTP w/ 90gr Goex BP) and my Black Diamond (300gr XTP w/ 90gr Goex ClearShot substitute) both at 2L pop bottles filled with water. The 300gr certainly looked like it blew the bottle apart more, whereas the 240 gr seemed to just punch a hole in it. I do think that the 300gr packs more punch, just not enough to put them down in their tracks on a lung shot.

Oh, and the best part? I was party hunting with some folks who don't bow hunt. They tagged the deer and mine is still in my pocket!

Good job man.

I use the Hornady .300gr XTP in my Savage 10ML ii. It has never let me down... :)

id keep your TC white mountain for foggin and trade the other with the stuck breech in, might want to try a good penetrating oil like 3 in one or try heating the nipple very gently with a lighter once its shot and unloaded !!

as for best mz for $ get a tc omega with decent 3 to 9 scope, 250 grain tc shockwave bullets and run 120 grains yukon gold loose powder down it.

you dont have to clean your mz after every shot with the yukon gold its a non corrosive powder and accuracy isnt affected say till 5 to 7 shots.

you will have a 200 yard set up thats served me very well in the field for over 10 years i had other muzzleloaders before the omega and ive seen friends buy newer breakactions etc nothing shoots like the omega.

ive drilled 2 yotes this week n neither moved from where i shot lol

[QUOTE=Monster29/66;1000689]id keep your TC white mountain for foggin and trade the other with the stuck breech in, might want to try a good penetrating oil like 3 in one or try heating the nipple very gently with a lighter once its shot and unloaded !!

as for best mz for $ get a tc omega with decent 3 to 9 scope, 250 grain tc shockwave bullets and run 120 grains yukon gold loose powder down it.

you dont have to clean your mz after every shot with the yukon gold its a non corrosive powder and accuracy isnt affected tootill 5 to 7 shots.

I found that the xtp's worked ok but the terminal performance was not what I would have liked. The pr bullets have worked well, either the QT's or the dead centres depending on whether I want an exit hole or not. So far they have been impressive. But dead is dead and if your bullet is doing what you want then why change.