From the Liberal Rag

No mention of the Native problems, just blame the hunters

https://www.thestar.com/news/queensp...port-says.html

Ontario’s moose population is under threat with “rapid declines” in numbers over the past decade, warns the environmental commissioner in a report released Wednesday that urges the government to take better care of the province’s wildlife and forests.
“One of Ontario’s most important species is the moose. Moose are key forest species in most of Ontario,” said Dianne Saxe, who blamed the “loss of roadless areas, too much fire suppression, disease, parasites and hunting all make life difficult for moose.
“Climate change is making it worse — moose are exquisitely adapted to cold weather and very poorly adapted for heat.
In her report, titled Small Steps Forward, Saxe also cited a “large-scale loss of biodiversity,” calling it a “crisis in our province and around the world.”
In Ontario, eight of 27 amphibian species are considered at risk, as are moose, and four of eight bat species are listed as endangered.

I actually read the article and they did not blame the hunters for the whole decline but mentioned many other factors.

If anyone does not believe these other factors have made a difference then they need to get into the field more often.

Climate change has made an enormous difference in the hunt, this year I saw area,s that used to be under 2 feet of water now dry,
I saw active beaver ponds down 4 or 5 feet in water levels. The Moose are not moving around and are in very different places.

Sure the Aboriginal people have some people taking advantage but we get a good number of none aboriginals charged and convicted every year.

Its a good job the Star is actually reporting these issues.IMHO

i live in wmu's 46/49/47 i can telll you first hand 75% of the problem is Aboriginal's . there was 36 ADULT moose last year shot in shawanaga alone !! thats just what was reported to there band office . thats one reserve. I do not know one person who got an adult tag last year or this year .this is a canada wide serious problem . how many non aboriginals are charged yearly in canada for shooting adult moose ? maybe 100 ?? maybe

The First Nations don't even report what they kill. It's irresponsible science to not include the possibility that First Nations are part of the problem.

It's so ignorant I get insanely mad. Quoted from an article I read...

""Whenever a process involving First Nations is challenged, someone will run to the microphone to shout racism as a way to dodge the true issue. Namely, conservation is colour blind, and no fish or wildlife resource can withstand unlimited human harvest by anyone—period."

Our natural resources will be gone if people and government don't work together....I don't understand how anyone doesn't understand the simple concept.... take too much today there won't be enough tomorrow. Why don't certain First Nations get this? I don't know....

This issue is beyond a concern. Immediate action is required asap to stop the collapse of our wildlife from over harvest from First Nation. Not at the next federal election.... action is needed today or it's too late....

maskedburito i see your in my area . i was born and raised in carling/dillion area . i am sure you see and hear the same things i do . its very sad to see . and lets not forget about the walleye slaughtered every spring . if they can shoot what ever when ever how about using traditional weapons !!!( stick and string)not the white mans high powered rifles

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Originally Posted by bigbuckfisher

i live in wmu's 46/49/47 i can telll you first hand 75% of the problem is Aboriginal's . there was 36 ADULT moose last year shot in shawanaga alone !! thats just what was reported to there band office . thats one reserve. I do not know one person who got an adult tag last year or this year .this is a canada wide serious problem . how many non aboriginals are charged yearly in canada for shooting adult moose ? maybe 100 ?? maybe

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If your not taking into affect ALL THE OTHER factors which has lead to a population decline then why not? The number of non aboriginal hunters charged yearly in Canada would be a difficult figure to obtain,but even if we did obtain it I would probably double it in any event as these were the ones who got caught or self reported.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

If your not taking into affect ALL THE OTHER factors which has lead to a population decline then why not? The number of non aboriginal hunters charged yearly in Canada would be a difficult figure to obtain,but even if we did obtain it I would probably double it in any event as these were the ones who got caught or self reported.

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i have nothing agaist natives . i have 2 first cousins who are 50% native . its the lack of respect for wildlife MOST of them have . ive said this before when we buy our tag that keep's going up every year ! we give something back for the harvest of an animal if IF WE EVEN GET ONE .they are stealing from us and give nothing back .
not sure where you are in mississauga gilroy . but here in wmu's 46/49 the water is higher this year .our atv trails had more water then ever . last year i had to drive 10 ft father back to launch my boat .then this year ?

Gillroy,

Our climate has been changing for years and years. We have suffered through tough winters in the past couple years, but nothing like our herd has not seen before.
We use the same model they use in Scandinavia to manage their moose herd.
You need to also consider the intention of the individual writing this article. It sounds like slight anti hunt bias to me.
We need to know the numbers of moose harvested by the native community before ringing any alarm bells. It's thats simple. Its called transparency....not racism


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Originally Posted by bigbuckfisher

i have nothing agaist natives . i have 2 first cousins who are 50% native . its the lack of respect for wildlife MOST of them have . ive said this before when we buy our tag that keep's going up every year ! we give something back for the harvest of an animal if IF WE EVEN GET ONE .they are stealing from us and give nothing back .
not sure where you are in mississauga gilroy . but here in wmu's 46/49 the water is higher this year .our atv trails had more water then ever . last year i had to drive 10 ft father back to launch my boat .then this year ?

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LOL Well I can tell you I wasn't Moose hunting in Mississauga.But in Coe Hill, WMU 60 which is very much Southern Ontario I can reassure you the water levels are well down.So well down some of the local wells went dry including one of mine and it has never run dry while I have owned the place in the last 16 years.

Some aboriginals do take advantage but what about the one,s who do not,if they were all as bad as some guys want to make out we would have run out of Moose in Ontario 50 years ago.

My neighbor saw two bulls,two cows and three calfs last week and his gang shot 2 of the calf's, none of them are aboriginal, is their harvest sustainable.They did not have adult tags and might not get any next year,so what happens if they pop three calf,s next year?

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Originally Posted by BigTurk

Gillroy,

Our climate has been changing for years and years. We have suffered through tough winters in the past couple years, but nothing like our herd has not seen before.
We use the same model they use in Scandinavia to manage their moose herd.
You need to also consider the intention of the individual writing this article. It sounds like slight anti hunt bias to me.
We need to know the numbers of moose harvested by the native community before ringing any alarm bells. It's thats simple. Its called transparency....not racism


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Sure the article has a slight anti hunting bias, I agree with you but its not as the OP says "[COLOR=#333333]No mention of the Native problems, just blame the hunters".

The article did not just blame the hunters but mentioned many reasons for the decline,most have been discussed on this forum.

There is no respect or even thought of sustainability by certain folks and certainly no consequences for them when they shoot everything they see....I'm not talking FN, this is a problem with certain people from any background. Let's pull all the dough out of MNRF and expect this crap not to happen? Enforcement is one answer to this problem.


Let's protect the wolves and bears from being shot too.

How can this not be taken in to account?

With regard to FN - Why aren't truly primitive methods insisted upon for harvest?

But hey let's blame climate change. That's a good one!

As Canadians we put up with far to much stupidity and nonsense.

Did the article mention anything about the lack of logging in Northern ontario? Lack of sustainable forestry practices are a massive threat to the population. Cut forests =new growth and generation= food.


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FN now are worse then they've ever been gilroy . and now add ten's of thousands of METIS people to the situation who have harvest cards and bang a huge declineing moose population .they think its a free for all . it ant the bears , it ant the global warming, and its not 90% of legal hunters who 75% of get calf tags $60 a pop and rising

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

LOL Well I can tell you I wasn't Moose hunting in Mississauga.But in Coe Hill, WMU 60 which is very much Southern Ontario I can reassure you the water levels are well down.So well down some of the local wells went dry including one of mine and it has never run dry while I have owned the place in the last 16 years.

Some aboriginals do take advantage but what about the one,s who do not,if they were all as bad as some guys want to make out we would have run out of Moose in Ontario 50 years ago.

My neighbor saw two bulls,two cows and three calfs last week and his gang shot 2 of the calf's, none of them are aboriginal, is their harvest sustainable.They did not have adult tags and might not get any next year,so what happens if they pop three calf,s next year?

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Given that every native gets a tag of some sort, their seasons are 3 months long and their harvest numbers are either inaccurate or closely guarded secrets I'd say it's pretty hard to break the law as a Native. The only way you can break a rule is if there are RULES and somebody is enforcing them. There are no courts or true enforcement in the Native harvest. They can't control their hunters any more than we can control their hunters.

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Originally Posted by bigbuckfisher

and now add ten's of thousands of METIS people to the situation who have harvest cards and bang a huge declineing moose population .they think its a free for all .

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Really. Please tell me more as I am Metis and would love to find out how to get one of these cards.

I suggest you do your homework before spouting such idiotic mis-information.

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

Really. Please tell me more as I am Metis and would love to find out how to get one of these cards.

I suggest you do your homework before spouting such idiotic mis-information.

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where have you been bushmoose ??? read the news !!!!! http://www.metisnation.org/contact-us/ have a read . i personaly know 5 metis who have there harvest cards


I suggest you do your homework before spouting such idiotic mis-information.

Curiously, while they rightfully list all the contributing factors, they didn't mention (unless I missed it).

Predation

Warm winters probably don't help... but I would NOT blame "global warming" bc that is a crock of sheeat

Warmish winters are part of the cyclical weather patterns we've always experienced... Co2 emission cause by human activity amounts to a fart

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

There is no respect or even thought of sustainability by certain folks and certainly no consequences for them when they shoot everything they see....I'm not talking FN, this is a problem with certain people from any background. Let's pull all the dough out of MNRF and expect this crap not to happen? Enforcement is one answer to this problem.


Let's protect the wolves and bears from being shot too.

How can this not be taken in to account?

With regard to FN - Why aren't truly primitive methods insisted upon for harvest?

But hey let's blame climate change. That's a good one!

As Canadians we put up with far to much stupidity and nonsense.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2...s-warn-expert/


Here is a link hot off the press that also points to hunters being a factor BUT ALSO A LOT OF OTHER FACTORS ARE MENTIONED.The decline in animal populations is a Worldwide problem.

That may be and is true Gilroy but as always, people are quick to point at everyone/everything but themselves. Oddly, I was thinking about this yesterday due to a friend sharing a Facebook protest, that amounted to a rant and call for action against Under Armor for sponsoring "Trophy" hunters.

The single largest threat's to wildlife is/are in no particular order.
Habitat loss ( and changing climates)
Pollution

Maybe if people, the vast, vast majority of whom don't hunt didn't want
2 or 3 vehicles
One large home
One cottage
Paved roads and paved parking lots and super centres
Didn't waste (consumer societies that buy, throw out, buy again) and pollute like stink
and so on

In short led simpler lives, with less..........

So much easier to point at hunting and hunters who by and large (loosely speaking) , tend to be people that live simpler lives. It's one thing to identify all the contributing factors.......but then it comes time "well what can be done about it"...

And yes given theres two threads this morning. We can see the "point fingers at everything/everyone else" there to where hunters are pointing fingers at......

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Originally Posted by bigbuckfisher

where have you been bushmoose ??? read the news !!!!! http://www.metisnation.org/contact-us/ have a read . i personaly know 5 metis who have there harvest cards


I suggest you do your homework before spouting such idiotic mis-information.

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Don't worry, I'm very familiar with the MNO website. Fact is, there are only 1450 harvester cards issued in Ontario. Not "tens of thousands" as you mistakenly suggest.

Jben,
I think conservation mistakes made by appealing to folks whom base decisions on emotions rather than science and facts are another contributing force. (Cancellation of the spring bear hunt)


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Originally Posted by BigTurk

Jben,
I think conservation mistakes made by appealing to folks whom base decisions on emotions rather than science and facts are another contributing force. (Cancellation of the spring bear hunt)


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The cancellation of the Spring Bear Hunt was politically motivated and carried out by Mike Harris. To simply save a few contested seats,funny enough even although it was wrong and probably illegal the supporters of his party sat by quietly and let this one slip by to the detriment of all us hunters.We now have another party who are currying favor by bringing back the hunt.This ping,pong ball
approach used on us by politicians needs to stop.

Another thumbs up for the OFAH to run the show.

I agree on that Gilroy, but was trying to stay as non-partisan as possible with respect to this.


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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

Don't worry, I'm very familiar with the MNO website. Fact is, there are only 1450 harvester cards issued in Ontario. Not "tens of thousands" as you mistakenly suggest.

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show me where it says there is only 1450 cards in ontario lol

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Originally Posted by bigbuckfisher

show me where it says there is only 1450 cards in ontario lol

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So you want me to do your homework for you? Ok. Go to the MNO site you so graciously provided and click on "Registry". In the drop down menu, click on "Harvesting". Now read it? Granted, it is a little out of date, but the number is now 1450, as opposed to 1250. If you really want confirmation, why not call the 800 number?

When you've done all this, you should come back on here and apologise to everyone for spewing the mis-information you seem so keen on. Have at er!

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

So you want me to do your homework for you? Ok. Go to the MNO site you so graciously provided and click on "Registry". In the drop down menu, click on "Harvesting". Now read it? Granted, it is a little out of date, but the number is now 1450, as opposed to 1250. If you really want confirmation, why not call the 800 number?

When you've done all this, you should come back on here and apologize to everyone for spewing the misinformation you seem so keen on. Have at er!

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Appears everyone who is against first nation hunters is quick to spew misinformation, when in fact the information is usually generally readily available. Such as with the argument posted earlier in the thread that every first nation hunter receives a tag of some sort... WRONG. First nations hunting numbers are secret... WRONG. Etc...

I agree with you Bushmoose I wish people took the time to fully research the matter prior to posting. In case anyone was wondering here are the links to the harvesting pages for 3 of the largest first nations groups from Eastern Ontario. Amount of tag numbers per WMU and even the tag holders names all in plain view for the world to see. These three combined for a total of 23 adult moose tags out of the available 32 to the ten first nations groups within the Algonquins of Ontario in WMU 48 (the WMU I hunt). According to the regulations there were 45 non first nations adult tags available.

http://www.algonquinsofpikwakanagan.com/harvest.php

http://www.greatergoldenlake.com/Moose16.html

http://www.bafn.ca/harvesting.html

Here is the site for the Algonquins of Ontario harvesting site:

http://www.tanakiwin.com/community/aooharvest/

The Algonquin 2016-2017 harvesting plan:
http://www.tanakiwin.com/wp-system/u...6_Final_v2.pdf

The Algonquin 2014-2015 harvesting results which show that out of 305 tags issued for that harvesting season only 164 moose were harvested by Algonquins accross .

http://www.tanakiwin.com/wp-system/u...st-Summary.pdf

Agree Big Turk, that to plays a part.

But if we consider the biggest threats and "killers" of wildlife, its people. People who live in cities whose appetites for things,for big homes, for many vehicles, cottages that are more home, than cottage super centres and huge malls, miles and miles and miles of paved roads and on and on and on and on. Then over and above that, look at the garbage and pollution, generated by cities and those with in them.

And usually its hunting, that gets singled out.

Attachment 33688




Meegwetch natives are good for the moose population meat hunters that shoot only big bulls


i wonder why i cant get a bbull taggggg hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

So you want me to do your homework for you? Ok. Go to the MNO site you so graciously provided and click on "Registry". In the drop down menu, click on "Harvesting". Now read it? Granted, it is a little out of date, but the number is now 1450, as opposed to 1250. If you really want confirmation, why not call the 800 number?

When you've done all this, you should come back on here and apologise to everyone for spewing the mis-information you seem so keen on. Have at er!

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i called the 1-800 # and was told there is over 10,000 harvest cards in ontario !!!

should be poaching cards cause thats all FN's do is POACH !!!

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Originally Posted by justinanika

appears everyone who is against first nation hunters is quick to spew misinformation, when in fact the information is usually generally readily available. Such as with the argument posted earlier in the thread that every first nation hunter receives a tag of some sort... Wrong. First nations hunting numbers are secret... Wrong. Etc...

I agree with you bushmoose i wish people took the time to fully research the matter prior to posting. In case anyone was wondering here are the links to the harvesting pages for 3 of the largest first nations groups from eastern ontario. Amount of tag numbers per wmu and even the tag holders names all in plain view for the world to see. These three combined for a total of 23 adult moose tags out of the available 32 to the ten first nations groups within the algonquins of ontario in wmu 48 (the wmu i hunt). According to the regulations there were 45 non first nations adult tags available.

http://www.algonquinsofpikwakanagan.com/harvest.php

http://www.greatergoldenlake.com/moose16.html

http://www.bafn.ca/harvesting.html

here is the site for the algonquins of ontario harvesting site:

http://www.tanakiwin.com/community/aooharvest/

the algonquin 2016-2017 harvesting plan:
http://www.tanakiwin.com/wp-system/u...6_final_v2.pdf

the algonquin 2014-2015 harvesting results which show that out of 305 tags issued for that harvesting season only 164 moose were harvested by algonquins accross .

http://www.tanakiwin.com/wp-system/u...st-summary.pdf

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funny you suggest the fn 's are issued tags bahahahahaha there is no limits for them i am surrounded by reserves,i have 2 first coousins who are 50% native and went to school with 50 of them its a free for all from september 1st to december 31st enough of the bull people

Every person on here has posted that over harvesting by Aboriginal hunters is a problem,but we do take into consideration ALL the other factors.What might affect you personally in YOUR area will not affect me in Southern Ontario,but the weather change might.

If the aboriginal hunters over harvest they eventually suffer like all of us.

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Originally Posted by JBen

Agree Big Turk, that to plays a part.

But if we consider the biggest threats and "killers" of wildlife, its people. People who live in cities whose appetites for things,for big homes, for many vehicles, cottages that are more home, than cottage super centres and huge malls, miles and miles and miles of paved roads and on and on and on and on. Then over and above that, look at the garbage and pollution, generated by cities and those with in them.

And usually its hunting, that gets singled out.

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How about the people from the cities like me who pay and own a few hundred acres,pay taxes every year,pay for the forest management program,that preserves their habitat,put in food plots.

Do we not get any credit for our hard work and expense?

My BIL is building a cottage on an established Lake near me,he is employing scores of local tradesmen,is he some how now a bad guy.

how about this gilroy . i and a few friends volunteered to the MNR to re build walleye spawning beds just to have 50 + FN's slaughter the walleye .
i then volunteered to help the MNR to help bring feed into the deer yards . my time,fuel wear and tare on atv's just to have FN 's drive up to the feeders and shoot deer

seems like a few of you's just dont want to hear the sad truth and just beat around the bush !! something needs to be done ASAP !! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH COME ON PEOPLE

lets not forget about the write up last year ! in the outdoor canada mag called MOOSE MENACE ( HOW UNREGULATED HUNTING IS PUTTING OUR LARGEST DEER AT RISK by vince crichton the vice president of the north american moose fondation

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Originally Posted by bigbuckfisher

seems like a few of you's just dont want to hear the sad truth and just beat around the bush !! something needs to be done ASAP !! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH COME ON PEOPLE

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Well I feel bad for you in this situation,I guess if I were you I would get my friends together and meet with the District Manager of the MNR and see what they say.If the results were not good I would personally contact the Minister.Having the OFAH zone rep with you would also be good.If you could get a local reporter on side with any article that would be good as the other side would want to respond and open some dialogue.

We are really in a cross roads in Ontario with the Moose and natural resources.With the Province about to give back a large chunk of the area back to the Algonquins some body will have to manage the herd.

The problem as I see it is a great number of hunters,especially from Southern Ontario simply jump in their pick up trucks once a year with ATV,s on the back,drive up north,shoot a Moose and come home.They have always done this and expect everything is good.Only now when they see reductions in the tags are they taking notice.

My neighbor a nice Polish guy here in Mississauga just last week shot a beautiful Bull with a 54 rack on the Tuesday morning.Their group hunts Crown land near Algonquin Park.They all are Polish and are probably oblivious to what is happening to the population
in the entire Province as it does not affect their hunt.SO FAR.

The group of locals I hunted with last week spend $2,500.00 a year to lease a 300 acre block to hunt Moose and Deer on.We did not have any adult tags and probably will not get any next year.There are good Moose numbers in the area,but tags are very few WMU60.

I cant really suggest much else,I know in my area where I Moose hunt they were not even present there in the 1970,s so its not traditional range for them.