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Hey Duck hunters have a question where 3 people have told me 3 different answers.
When Duck hunting does the engine have to be out of the water.
Also, does the boat have to have an anchor.
On the ofah website says that the boat just has to stop moving.
Darren
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Boat has to stop moving and motor off. You can hunt from a human propelled moving craft like a kayak, canoe or a scull boat.
Here's the reg:
A reference in these Regulations to the use of a power boat does not include the use of a power boat when the motor is not in operation and forward progress has ceased.
Here's a link to the regs:
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.%2C_c._1035/
Thanks
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you also can shoot a crippled bird with the motor running.
Do you have a reference to the regulation that allows that?Quote:
Originally Posted by fishing1
I am under the impression that you cannot discharge a firearm at all if the boat is moving from motor propulsion.
You better check your regs again......Quote:
Originally Posted by fishing1
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Wheelerdude
Oh god here we go again................you have to do everything possible to recover that cripple and yes that includes shooting from a moving boat under power. This topic has been beat down so many times on this forum (the cripple aspect). Yes you can have your motor in the water for the hunt just not under power and all forward momentum has stopped UNLESS you are chasing a cripple then you NEED to recover that cripple which include chasing them down and dispatching from a moving boat under power. I don't need to provide regs to prove it, that's up to you to look them up. I've had C O's tell me the rule and have had them watch us do it, it will be the guys that just let that cripple swim off with out attempting to recover it who will be charged...........Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
Take notes everyone. This is accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
-N.
Sure.... just like trespassing to recover a wounded deer is also legal.....or shooting wounded birds/deer/moose after legal time.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprite
If its not in the regulations, dont do it. Otherwise your faith is in the hands of the CO that is watching you.
I prefer chasing a cripple without my gun, then spending the next 2 years in the legal system.
For those who still have doubts about this, here it is straight from the MNR website :
Question: What are the regulations around retrieving migratory game birds and subsequent use of harvested birds?
[COLOR=#333333]Answer: The regulations require hunters to have an adequate means of retrieving birds and immediately make every reasonable effort to retrieve a migratory game bird that has been killed or injured, and if it is still alive that they kill it immediately. A power boat may be used to retrieve a crippled, injured or dead migratory game bird. However, you may not shoot at a migratory bird while the boat is in motion. Migratory game birds taken must be then counted toward daily bag and possession limits. Also to be taken into account is that some provinces and territories have laws which require that edible meat of harvested game not be wasted, destroyed, spoiled or abandoned.
Duckslayer...you're up?Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Wheelerdude
Definitely written by someone who has never been diver hunting before. It would be funny to see it done this way though, chase the duck, jam the motor in reverse, shut the motor down and pray the duck doesn't dive (and if it does hope when it resurfaces its still in range).Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Wheelerdude
Best to talk to local CO re their interpretation. At a local mtg our CO focussed on 'make every reasonable effort' as opposed to be be worrying whether your motor was running or you were moving forward. Their only concern was that your gun was unloaded when you motored out.
Shooting from a moving boat in the pursuit of a cripple whether legal or not seems pretty unsafe to me. Boat floor potentially covered in weeds mud and or snow an ice while in potentially rough weather just seems like a really bad idea. Is retrieving a cripple worth potentially shooting your dog or boat or hunting partner, dropping your gun in the drink........................the list of bad things that can happen goes on and on!!
Guess I place I higher value on safety while hunting than some others do :)
I find the best scenario is when they do dive.Quote:
Originally Posted by mtaz
That allows me time to stop the boat, load my gun and take the legal shot when it resurfaces.
I think you are very wise to place a higher value on safety. My response was not to suggest otherwise; however the CO was simply suggesting that the motor did not have to be off and out of the water. Many would agree that they have shifted into neutral and in all likelihood there is some motion while they safely dispatch a cripple.Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter1
There is a very large difference between the letter of the law, and what a CO may or may not let you away with.Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn
Seriously you call me an internet CO and then go and tell everybody that you can shoot cripples from a boat under power!!! This is absolutely wrong and dangerous! WowQuote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
I guess I've been doing it all wrong for the past 45 years !!!
From the MBCA...note 16(2)....
Retrieving Birds
- [COLOR=black]16 [COLOR=black](1) No person shall hunt a migratory bird unless he has adequate means for retrieving any such bird that he may kill, cripple or injure.
- [COLOR=black](1.1) A person who kills, cripples or injures a migratory bird shall
- [COLOR=black](a) immediately make every reasonable effort to retrieve the bird; and
- [COLOR=black](b) if he retrieves the bird while it is still alive, immediately kill and include it in his daily bag limit.
- [COLOR=black](2) Notwithstanding paragraph 15(1)(e), a power boat may be used for the purpose of retrieving a migratory bird.
Nowhere does that say you can fire from a boat under power!!! So yes you have been doing it wrong for 45 years! That simply states that you must make every effort to go out and retrieve your birds, if they are still alive then you must kill them and you can use your power boat to retrieve your birds (you must do all of this without breaking any laws!) If you do need to shoot a crippled bird you must turn your motor off and cease your forward momentum before you can shoot the crippled bird... It that easy, it's posted right in the regs...Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Would you shoot a crippled dear from your truck in an effort to retrieve it???
What happens when it's another CO, or you hunt a different spot, or the OPP sees you firing from a boat under power, or you encounter a federal migratory bird CO? Wouldn't it just be easier to follow the regs??Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn
You are not allowed to hunt deer from your truck period, so it is not a fair comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by steelshed
I have been told by more than one CO that it is allowable providing it is done safely. There is not a serious diver hunter that hasn't done it. I have been doing it for 35 years and providing it is clear what you are doing and you are doing it safely it is not a problem.
Nobody says you can't pull your truck into a fence row remove the keys cover it in blind material and use it as a blind.lollollol
I diver hunt and have never done it... You can do as you please and I know a lot of people do it. I also really couldn't care less how many CO's have told you, it's pretty clear in the regs that it is not allowed... So please don't tell others that it is okay to do. It would be really bad if somebody did get in trouble with the law based on your recommendations of what some CO told you...Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
Most provincial CO's don't care or have a clue, but a run in with the OPP or a federal CO might be a bit different...
And technically you cant discharge a firearm from any motorized vehicle but the federal regs exempt boats when the motor is off and the boat has ceased its forward momentum for the sole purpose of hunting migratory birds.
[QUOTE=steelshed;997387]I diver hunt and have never done it... You can do as you please and I know a lot of people do it. I also really couldn't care less how many CO's have told you, it's pretty clear in the regs that it is not allowed... So please don't tell others that it is okay to do. It would be really bad if somebody did get in trouble with the law based on your recommendations of what some CO told you...
Most provincial CO's don't care or have a clue, but a run in with the OPP or a federal CO might be a bit different...
I have shared what I have been told. That's a little more than 'doing as I please'. Feel free to make your own decisions.
Your statement that most CO's don't have a clue or could care less is so far from the truth.I know a couple who'll get a laugh with that!
.
By the way you've also heard from an OPP in this thread but of course it's your call.
You did mean unless you are mobility impaired, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchhunter
Use of Vehicles, Boats or Aircraft (see Definitions, page 86) Aircraft may not be used while hunting. Snowmobiles, vehicles or boats may not be used for chasing, pursuing, harassing, capturing, injuring or killing any wildlife. It is illegal to have a loaded firearm in or on, or discharge a firearm from, an aircraft, vehicle (including snowmobile and all-terrain vehicle) or motorboat or anything towed by the boat. An exception to this rule is that a person may obtain an authorization through the local ministry office if the person’s mobility is impaired and the person meets one of the following criteria: 1. A paraplegic or hemiplegic. 2. A single (above the knee) lower limb amputation or a double (below the waist) amputation. 3. Suffers severe disability and cannot hunt without the use of a wheelchair or similar means of locomotion. In this case, the hunter must provide a medical certificate stating disability. The authorization is valid for a period of up to five years for a person with a permanent disability. A loaded firearm may be carried in, and discharged from, a canoe or boat that is being paddled, with no motor attached. MOTORBOATS: Under the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act, 1997, a motorboat means a boat with a motor that is attached to the boat (see Definitions on page 86). There is an exception to the prohibition on loaded firearms in a motorboat if you are hunting waterfowl in accordance with the Migratory Birds Convention Act, 1994.
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Steelshed,Quote:
Originally Posted by steelshed
I always appreciate the opinions of others especially when they are helpful for those who are inexperienced or new to an activity. I like to see 'opinions' backed up by facts of some sort or a clear interpretation .
Your comment to Rick was somewhat condescending in nature and detracting from arguing a position.
Biting tongue!!!!!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinker
Ya that is prob the best senario, no point in arguing with someone like that, 13 posts in and everyone of them is telling someone how he knows the rules better.............. Not worth arguing with the trolls...........
Yup, me too! At least we know what we are doing !!Quote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
I fail to see how post count has any relation with knowing the regs... It's a simple matter of comprehension skills...Quote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
You guys seem to know what your doing, the information and facts were quoted from the regs for the original poster, hopefully he will read the regs for himself and make up his own mind.
Nobody is able to back up the statement that you can discharge from a boat under power....
Hearsay, or the fact you've been doing it wrong for 45 years, or it's okay if your diver hunting do not back up this claim...
Sorry guys i'm really not trying to troll or be rude but you need to read what you are saying... The regulations are pretty clear... And if said OPP officer is not willing to charge a person discharging from a boat under power then he falls into that doesn't have a clue or just simply doesn't care category...
No trolls on here. Period, full stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
The regs have been read out to you, they aren't really up for interpretation. Yes, you can use a power boat to RETRIEVE birds. Shooting cripples from a boat while under power is against the regs. Shooting at any animal while under power is against the regs. Why do you think the reg further defines it as "not under power, and with forward momentum halted?" So there is a very clear line between the act of hunting and shooting, and the retrieval of game.
Just because you and guys like Rick have been "getting away with it for 45 years" doesn't mean you're not breaking the regs. You just don't seem to like having it pointed out on a very public forum, now do you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
That was good :)
There are two different scenarios here. Can you run under power and shoot at a cripple? No you cannot. However, you can run out to the duck, engine now in neutral, load up and dispatch the cripple. The difference is the motor not running and forward motion stopped requirement to "hunt" from a powerboat, do not apply. Retrieving is not subject to those conditions. Your motor may be running, and forward motion doesn't need to be stopped. Retrieving is not "hunting". That is the reason an unlicensed individual may assist in retrieval and recovery of legally harvested game. But that's probably subject to another argument !Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
As far as "getting away with it ", I've hunted regularly with Federal wildlife officers. I think they knew the regs. !!!
DUM DE DUM DUM! stay tuned for the next exciting post / developement in this suspense filled thread !:)
I've got to get more popcorn.
Why would there be an exception rule to allow me to go retrieve/pick up my dead duck with a motor boat?
Seems odd doesn't it?
OK Rick....argue some more. Lets ask you this.....when does shooting a "cripple" fall under the definition of a retrieve?Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Answer? It doesn't. A crippled bird is not retrieving game. Either the bird has been dispatched, and you are now in the process of retrieving it's lifeless carcass, or you are actively hunting a bird who has perhaps been wounded, but has not expired.
If a bird is alive, and you are pursuing it, under power with a loaded gun, regardless of a few pellets put in it's body, then you are hunting from a powered vehicle.
Sure, you've hunted with wildlife officers, good for you. Because no cop ever felt like they could bend the rules either by right of their employment? Getting away with something that goes against the letter of the law, and being in compliance with the law are not one and the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Oh the stories are changing now.... wow...
Bluebulldog couldn't have put it any better, it's clearly stated in the regs, motor off and forward momentum stopped... You can't even have a firearm loaded in a boat while it is under power... No exemptions in the regs, they just state that you can use your power boat to retrieve birds...
What is YOUR definition of a retrieve? Read the bold/underlined sections. This is copied straight from the MBCA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
Retrieving Birds
- [COLOR=black]16 [COLOR=black](1) No person shall hunt a migratory bird unless he has adequate means for retrieving any such bird that he may kill, cripple or injure.
- [COLOR=black](1.1) A person who kills, cripples or injures a migratory bird shall
- [COLOR=black](a) immediately make every reasonable effort to retrieve the bird; and
- [COLOR=black](b) if he retrieves the bird while it is still alive, immediately kill and include it in his daily bag limit.
- [COLOR=black](2) Notwithstanding paragraph 15(1)(e), a power boat may be used for the purpose of retrieving a migratory bird.
Pretty clear to me.
S.
Yea it says use your power boat to retrieve dead or crippled birds, and if you retrieve the bird while it is still alive then you must immediately kill it... Doesn't give an exemption to allow people to start shooting from a boat that is under power?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinker
Should be pretty clear to everyone.
See. That's just it. It doesn't say retrieving a crippled migratory bird, it says retrieving one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinker
Further compounded by the fact that the reg does not indicate that shooting a cripple from a power boat is permitted. It simply says that it can be used to retrieve using one. There is a distinction between "immediately kill", and using a firearm from a boat under power.
If the reg stated that "in the course of retrieving a crippled bird, a power boat may be used and fired from", then have at it. However, no language used so far, and re-published on here gives any credence to the assertion that a powered boat may be fired from.
to me this is pretty obvious. there is a lot of anecdotal things being thrown around, yet it states it pretty clear on the post on the first page that shooting at a bird is not allowed out of a boat under motor power.
that being said i am a spirit of the law kind of guy. if shooting safely out of the boat when still under motion is your only option, to end suffering and to retrieve the bird, i would argue that to a CO and take the punishment if he didnt budge.
i think the guys who do it, will continue to do it, and guys who dont, wont. but the discussion is good to have (with facts, and some anecdotes) so that new hunters can make the choice on their own.
all that said, i am no expert, and have never hunted out of a motor boat so havent faced this quandry....
throwing around names for people pointing out the letter of the law is immature at best and doesn't help you argue your point... but some people just like to post like that...
Its pretty clear to me that you omitted the rest of the regulation :Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinker
[COLOR=#333333]" A power boat may be used to retrieve a crippled, injured or dead migratory game bird. However, you may not shoot at a migratory bird while the boat is in motion. "
https://www.ec.gc.ca/rcom-mbhr/default.asp?lang=En&n=F566470E-1
So you have no problem telling a new hunter to risk fines, possibility of seizure of equipment and vehicle, loss of hunting privilege that it's ok to discharge a firearm from a boat under power to kill a bird that most likely can be retrieved and killed without breaking laws? Why not just run up on the bird and grab it with a net, or run your boat up to the bird and stop the boat and turn off the engine and then load up your firearm and dispatch the bird?Quote:
Originally Posted by bowj
Discharging a firearm from a boat under power is never an option, this is when you are protected by the clause that you have made every reasonable effort to retrieve the bird. Just like you cannot trespass to retrieve your bird or discharge your firearm after legal shooting time to kill a crippled bird.
you forgot to mention that the guys who like to argue and attack other for their enjoyment will also continue to do soQuote:
Originally Posted by bowj
A migratory bird is not a crippled bird. Big difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Wheelerdude
To shoot at a migratory bird you are hunting, retrieving a cripple, you are not hunting, you are retrieving. Two different scenarios with different definitions, and different regulations.
Anyways, you guys argue all you want.
I will add one thing, I heard of a guy chasing a cripple from a moving boat, fired the shot, got the duck, but didn't pick up his empty shell. He got charged with littering. Not a word about shooting from the boat.
I will chase cripples in my boat every time, and I have a very good track record for retrieving them. I can count on one hand how many get away over the course of a season. A lot more would be lost if I had to hit neutral and stop all forward motion.
The intent of the regulation is to stop people from running up to a flock of ducks and opening fire on them.
I guess you risk being charged with not using every reasonable effort if you don't chase them with the boat. Sometimes you only have a split second and they are gone under again. I don't know how many cans you guys have shot, but good luck getting a cripple without chasing them in the boat and shooting while under power. Its not gonna happen.
S.
So a migratory bird loses it status when it is injured??? The regulation is there to prevent people from discharging from a motor vehicle. Please read what you are writing. If this was the case then using a rifle to dispatch a bird would then become legal, or using lead shot, discharging after legal time or many other countless offences because you are no longer hunting migratory birds?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinker
Yikes...
My only intention is to prevent people, specially new hunters from getting in trouble with the law and risk the loss of hunting privilege.
Then your advice should be to check with the authorities, rather than taking advice from nameless posters on the internet !Quote:
Originally Posted by steelshed
Mmmmhmmmm......YUP....I'm done!Quote:
Originally Posted by steelshed
See ya!!
S.
It does becomes part of your bag limit, so you better go get it by every reasonable method available....Some feel if you can do it safety from a moving boat...thats reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by steelshed
if we were sitting around discussing it i would explain the entire scenario, and than the choice would be theirs. if we were in the heat of the moment i dont know what i would do until i am in that position.Quote:
Originally Posted by steelshed
do you think seizure of a vehicle would happen on such an offense? i dont know but i highly doubt it, it would likely be just fines or a warning. but who knows...
To each his own
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If one interprets this section to mean that one can't have a loaded firearm in a boat or shoot from the boat unless the motor is off and all forward motion has stopped.....then there is no need for this "exception" because the 15(1)(e) section already eliminated that activity. So one does not need this exception to retrieve a bird. I interpret this section to allow the possession and discharge of a firearm from a moving boat to retrieve crippled waterfowl. If it does not allow that to happen then there was no need to put this section in at all.(acknowledge it is my interpretation and I'd fight a charge in court)Quote:
[COLOR=black](2) Notwithstanding paragraph 15(1)(e), a power boat may be used for the purpose of retrieving a migratory bird.
^ and you would win.
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This link is not from the Migratory Birds Regulations. It is from a summary and questions document which would be somewhat the equivalent of the Ontario hunting summary. To get the black and white of the law one has to go the actual legislation which can be interpreted as many ways as those who read it. In the end a judge would decide who's right and who's wrong.Quote:
Its pretty clear to me that you omitted the rest of the regulation :
[COLOR=#333333]" A power boat may be used to retrieve a crippled, injured or dead migratory game bird. However, you may not shoot at a migratory bird while the boat is in motion. "
https://www.ec.gc.ca/rcom-mbhr/default.asp?lang=En&n=F566470E-1
No need for 6 pages on this thread lol. No you can not shoot from a moving motor boat, plain and simple. Will you be charged if you do so retrieving a cripple, probably not unless you are doing so in an extremely careless manor.
Is driving 105km on the 401 a violation. Yes. Will you get a ticket doing so, probably not unless you are doing so in extremely careless manor.
my hunting and firearms instructor summed it up well when these type of questions came up. He said when a boarder line or ethical situation arises he would always think, what would my mom say if I did this, if she would be ok with it he felt comfortable doing it.
You take your mom hunting?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by JJZ
Your 1st paragraph sums it up.
Exactly, Environment Canada had to explain this section for those of you who do not understand that you cannot shoot from a moving boat, no matter what.Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
And still, some of you refuse to understand.
17(1) (a)
Unlawfully discharge firearm from conveyance
Set Fine: $250.00
Total Payable: $305.00
[COLOR=#000000]A person who is in an area usually inhabited by wildlife or who is on the way to or from an area usually inhabited by wildlife shall not,
(a) have a loaded firearm in or on a conveyance or discharge a firearm from a conveyance, except if,
(i) the conveyance is a boat that is not a motorboat, or
(ii) the conveyance is a motorboat and the person is hunting migratory birds in accordance with the regulations under the Migratory Birds Convention Act, 1994 (Canada);
Note the words"except if" in (a).....then Note clause (ii)!!!!!,
Next, go to Sec. 16 of the MBCA....read the last paragraph.
- [COLOR=black](2) Notwithstanding paragraph 15(1)(e), a power boat may be used for the purpose of retrieving a migratory bird.
Here are the actual sections....so...to put this in laymans terms, the section in the FWCA that prohibits discharging a firearm from a boat, contains an exception, ( except if)....that exception is when you are retrieving migratory birds, as allowed by the MBCA......so, discharging a firearms from a boat is an exception to the FWCA when retrieving ducks......Enough said !!!!!!
Thanks for doing the research for the rest who just don't get it. I doubt they will understand, even now, but its worth a shot!Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
A lot people forget that when hunting migratory birds, you are under federal regulations, and a lot of the FWCA doesn't apply, or has exceptions in place for migratory birds, as in this case.
S.
Unless chasing a crippled bird.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Wheelerdude
S.
I find it hard to believe that some are still trying to defend such an unsafe act, legal or illegal. I can think of no possible scenario where discharging a firearm from a boat under power is safe (rather a recipe for disaster).
I believe someone posted the reg that stated any reasonable means
I can think of no bird worth mine and my buddies well being, I can clearly see others do not see things this way and ere on the side of caution.................scary really.
This is not anywhere in the migratory bird act.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinker
There is only the provision that a "power boat" may be used to retrieve birds.
It does not indicate in any way that you may shoot from a "power boat".
Theres no section that says you can't ! Enlighten us....post one that says you can't !Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
You bastard...Quote:
Originally Posted by fishing1
Hahahahaha!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprite
Do we need an exemption rule that says you can chase and harass waterfowl as long as you've crippled it?Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
NO!.its automatically exempted under the "retrieving a bird".
We just so happened to have been pulled over this morning by a federal wildlife officer... According to him a crippled migratory bird is still being hunted. A firearm cannot be loaded or discharged from a boat under power and all other hunting regulations must be followed to retrieve the bird including legal shooting time (for evening hunters retrieving birds after dark).
Here is his contact information
Justin Cooke
Wildlife Officer
Wildlife Enforcement Branch, Ontario Region
Email: [email protected]
Read post 34 again !Quote:
Originally Posted by steelshed
Shooting at a crippled migratory bird is still hunting, you cannot hunt from a motor vehicle, under the federal migratory bird act we are given an exemption for hunting from a power boat as long as the motor is off and the boat has ceased it's forward momentum. We are also allowed to retrieve birds with the power boat.... I don't know how much simpler it can get? Please contact the wildlife officer or provide the contact information of these wildlife officers that you have hunted with.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
You also contradict yourself in post 34 saying that retrieving game is not hunting, which i agree, which does not require a hunting license. So shooting a crippled bird is not hunting, your saying that it's retrieving, therefor an unlicensed hunter may shoot the crippled bird????Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
No, only if the bird is dead. I'll concede the fact that a live crippled bird is being "hunted"...Quote:
Originally Posted by steelshed
Either way, the game officer did mention it is a very hard charge to stick unless it's combined with other charges... It's also a small fine, but the downfall is that anyone that is charged under the migratory bird act loses his privilege to purchase a migratory bird license for 1 year, and that would suck.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
An individual picking up a someones dead bird or cripple is retrieving a bird and is participating in the hunt and needs a hunting license.
I've sent off a letter for some clarification.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
Gotta open up another one eh LOL
We did the same. A friend from the US went moose hunting with us. The answer was that he couldn't participate in the hunt, but after the kill, he was allowed to assist in the recovery. But that's a discussion for another thread..Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
Retrieving dead birds or any game for the matter is not hunting, and does not require a hunting license. A crippled bird is still being hunted and must be dispatched by somebody with a hunting license. It's very popular to bring younger children that are not eligible for a hunting license to retrieve dead birds and expose them to hunting. They cannot call or spot as these actions are considered hunting.Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
If a child under 12 calls or spots, what are you going to charge them with? The provincial offenses act (thanks Rick) prevents this:Quote:
Originally Posted by steelshed
Minimum age 94. No person shall be convicted of an offence committed while he or she was under twelve years of age. R.S.O. 1990, c. P.33, s. 94.
.
Here's the response from your officer with his interpretation of the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by steelshed
Hi Frank,
He more or less paraphrased my answer but you cannot shoot at a cripple from a moving boat. A power boat may be used for the purpose of retrieving a migratory bird. I understand you may get a wide variety of answers on this topic but here’s my rationale:
Retrieving is not the same as “hunt” which is why you can retrieve game at night, have an unlicensed friend help you track a downed animal or have an unlicensed person run out and retrieve your birds for you etc. However, if this person was using a firearm to dispatch wounded game, he would require the appropriate licenses. If the animal is still alive, then you are “hunting”, If the animal is dead, then you are retrieving. The act specifically prohibits hunting from a power boat so as long as the bird is alive and you are actively pursuing it, you’re hunting. The intent of the section was to allow a power boat to be used to retrieve birds that are presumed dead, back when the act of retrieving may have fallen into the definition of “hunt” and then kill it once retrieved if it is still alive (in that order) as outlined below in (a)&(b) of the regs.
16. (1.1) A person who kills, cripples or injures a migratory bird shall
(a) immediately make every reasonable effort to retrieve the bird; and
(b) if he retrieves the bird while it is still alive, immediately kill and include it in his daily bag limit
Since migratory birds are little different than other game, it is common to retrieve a bird that may still be alive. Pursuing a wounded bird and shooting it from a power boat is a different action than using your boat to drive out and pick up a bird. I have no doubt that shooting from a moving boat is sometimes the most effective way to quickly dispatch a cripple, however I don’t believe it falls within the intent of the law and it is also a huge safety issue.
I hope this answers your question.
Thanks,
Justin
His second to last sentence speaks volumes .....the bottom line is, it is common practice to kill cripples from a boat under power, especially when diver shooting in open water. I know of no enforcement of this ever being done. The MBCA does not specifically prohibit it. The FWCA actually has an exception to the discharge from conveyance regulations when waterfowling. To not chase them down and dispatch them only results in lost birds, and fat raccoons and skunks.
Just to follow up, if an unlicensed person ran out to pick up your bird and it was still alive, he cannot touch it?
"Lol I guess if we're getting technical... I personally would not charge someone for that. But I would charge someone for shooting from a moving boat."
Thanks,
Justin
Good for you guys to snag a CO and get an opinion on chasing/shooting crippled waterfowl from a power boat. It's always good to see opinions backed up by some assertion of fact or by someone charged with enforcement of that.
Here's my dilemma, I still believe I'm correct based on conversations and being accompanied by various other hunters who have official capacities, so I went to:
Mark Robbins, Provincial Enforcement Specialist, Enforcement Branch, MNR, Peterborough. Some will know he writes an excellent column in the OFAH magazine called ...'Ask a CO'
He referred my question to Gerry Brunet, Assistant Regional Director of Wildlife enforcement Division who deals specifically with waterfowling and the ACT
Although I cannot share the contents of his email, I can share relevant sections as per this issue. As per my understanding it was confirmed to me that a loaded firearm was acceptable in a moving boat for the purpose of retrieving crippled birds.
Feel free to contact either:
Mark Robbins, MNR, Peterborough,7057551775
Gerry Brunet, Operations Manager, Wildlife Enforcement Directorate, Enforcement Branch 9053196974
Bottom line was shooting from a moving boat was totally legal. Now most of us would consider the safety of our actions as always.....FIRST!
[COLOR=#1F497D]
[COLOR=#1F497D]
[COLOR=#1F497D]
[COLOR=#1F497D]The general rule under the Migratory Birds Regulations (MBRs) regarding hunting from a power boat is found at ...
[COLOR=#1F497D]
[COLOR=#1F497D]s. 15(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) and section 23.1, no person shall hunt a migratory bird
[COLOR=#1F497D](e) from any aircraft, sailboat, power boat, or motorized vehicle, or any vehicle to which a draught animal is attached.
[COLOR=#1F497D]
[COLOR=#1F497D]The MBRs offer an exception to the general rule for a power boat found at ...
[COLOR=#1F497D]s. 2(3) A reference in these Regulations to the use of a power boat does not include the use of a power boat when the motor is not in operation and forward progress has ceased.
[COLOR=#1F497D]
[COLOR=#1F497D]
[COLOR=#1F497D]Further, s. 16(2) MBRs provides a notwithstanding clause to s. 15(1)(e) that allows for the use of a power boat when retrieving a migratory bird. In practice, this supports the requirement placed on a hunter under s. 16(1.1)(a).
[COLOR=#1F497D]
[COLOR=#1F497D]s. 16. (1.1) A person who kills, cripples or injures a migratory bird shall
[COLOR=#1F497D](a) immediately make every reasonable effort to retrieve the bird;
[COLOR=#1F497D]
[COLOR=#1F497D]s. 16. (2) Notwithstanding paragraph 15(1)(e), a power boat may be used for the purpose of retrieving a migratory bird.
[COLOR=#1F497D]
[COLOR=#1F497D]In summary, the MBRs don’t contain a section that prohibits the possession of a loaded firearm in a power boat. They do however prohibit the person from hunting a migratory bird from a power boat (as described in s. 15(1)(e) ), except where otherwise provided in the MBRs. In Ontario under the FWCA, there is a prohibition from having a loaded firearm in or on, or discharging a firearm from a conveyance. The FWCA appropriately makes reference to an exception to this offence if the person is hunting migratory birds from a motorboat in accordance with the MBRs. The specific section reads ...
[COLOR=#1F497D]
[COLOR=#1F497D]FWCA s. 17.(1) A person who is in an area usually inhabited by wildlife or who is on the way to or from an area usually inhabited by wildlife shall not,
[COLOR=#1F497D](a) have a loaded firearm in or on a conveyance or discharge a firearm from a conveyance, except if,
[COLOR=#1F497D](ii) the conveyance is a motorboat and the person is hunting migratory birds in accordance with the regulations under the Migratory Birds Convention Act,1994 (Canada);
[COLOR=#1F497D]
[COLOR=#1F497D]
[COLOR=black]
[COLOR=rgb(0,0,0)]
...
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Although some CO's or other LEO's may feel it is illegal and therefore law a charge, based on what Krakadawn just posted, I highly doubt there would be a conviction in court.
It would come down to interpretation by the attending LEO.
I would like to see Justin Cooke provided with this material and hear his response.
Furthermore, I don't think anyone here is talking about flying across the lake full throttle firing away. I think most of the shooting is done while the boat is idling.
It's not uncommon for us to do it. Not just divers. A wounded goose on water can move... (and dive).Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
When we do it the motor may be running or we may even kill it. It's much smoother and more effective if you have a driver and a shooter. In relation to "under power" it's akin to a "rolling stop" while driving and coming to a stop sign. Not much forward movement at all.
As mentioned before.... different LEO's will also have their own opinion or interpretations of what the law says or the intent of it. At the end of the day, the judge will decide what is right....and even then....some judges make bad interpretations of the law and hence the need for the Supreme Court of Canada.
We can all agree to disagree on this and are liable not to change one another's' opinions on it. I use my firearm in a power boat for the purposes of retrieving cripples as I believe the law allows and would fight that in court. When the majority of the members who sit on the Supreme Court of Canada say I am wrong.....I will stop. Those who feel it is breaking the law and choose not to do so.....my hats off to you for sticking to what you believe.
Wow, what a difference a weekend makes.
We've now gone from " It's not illegal", to "it's common practice", or "I'd fight a charge".
Bottom line is that as the reg is laid out, it's illegal. A CO has weighed in on it, and regardless of it being minimized, it's still illegal.
If you tell a new hunter it's ok, you're not being helpful.
Read again BB, it is not illegal and that comes from the head of the enforcement branch. This is not being minimized....how could you say that?
Feel free to contact either of the contacts listed.
Underlying comment here though is 'safety' regardless of reg and I think most would agree.
Actually, CO Justin Cook indicated the following. "[COLOR=#333333]Pursuing a wounded bird and shooting it from a power boat is a different action than using your boat to drive out and pick up a bird. I have no doubt that shooting from a moving boat is sometimes the most effective way to quickly dispatch a cripple, however I don’t believe it falls within the intent of the law and it is also a huge safety issue."Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn
So I can say it fairly easily. Bottom line, you may do it....and not actually be charged, but that isn't exactly what's being argued here now is it? If you're stopped by a CO while doing it, and it's added to a list of charges, it's more likely to be used.
Once again, going back, several pages now. Getting away with something, and falling under the letter of the law, are two distinct things. Just because you're driving only 5km over the limit doesn't mean you're legal, but it's not likely that the OPP are going to charge you either. They may use it as a reason to effect a traffic stop however.
I'm just reading from the sidelines here, but that email from enforcement branch did not seem to offer anything about shooting cripples from a powerboat; just that the MBCA does not prohibit possession of a loaded firearm in the powerboat, and that powerboats can be used to retrieve game. Also that hunting from a powerboat is illegal, except where the Act allows.Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn
He seems to have just reiterated the sticky point without providing clarity.
And that is the crux of the discussion...it is not illegal. I did not reprint the letter in it's entirety as all govt. responses have certain disclaimers
But...let me tell you if you phone the enforcement specialist he will confirm that it is totally legal to have a loaded gun in the boat while pursuing a crippled bird. He reinforces safety as we all have throughout this thread and in fact suggested good practise would be to have two in the boat with the front person focussed on shooting the bird. He is the Enforcement Specialist.
This is not like doing 105 in a 100km zone....this is legal.
It has been alluded that should we tell newbies at the game to have at it....well I guess that's your call. There are those that need to either get a good dog or stay on shore.....as always, SAFETY first!
I agree that the email doesn't really say you can hunt from a power boat other then when the motor is off and the boat has ceased is forward motion... It would be a poor defense...
You have been told by a federal game officer that he would charge people for doing it... If the conviction went through then suffer the consequences.
But i agree, it has gone from common practice, to "I would fight it", to "you should be asking somebody of authority".
How much more do you want, that email is just some cut and paste of the regs, you have been told straight up by a Federal wildlife officer (the branch that write and enforce the federal regs!) that it is not allowed and is a chargeable offense.
You have been told straight up from the Enforcement Supervisor and the man in charge of Enforcement of the Act....how much more do you want...this goes well beyond a CO
PS...Call either of the individuals that I have provided. Both are well beyond a CO as per duties. Then come back on and share your answer. You have been provided the opportunity to prove your point.....go for it!
Just to review: Read the 'Exception"
[COLOR=#1f497d]The general rule under the Migratory Birds Regulations (MBRs) regardin
[COLOR=#1f497d]s. 15(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) and section 23.1, no person shall hunt a migratory bird
[COLOR=#1f497d](e) from any aircraft, sailboat, power boat, or motorized vehicle, or any vehicle to which a draught animal is attached.
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]The MBRs offer an exception to the general rule for a power boat found at ...
[COLOR=#1f497d]s. 2(3) A reference in these Regulations to the use of a power boat does not include the use of a power boat when the motor is not in operation and forward progress has ceased.
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]As you're likely aware, s. 2(3) allows for migratory bird hunters to operate as they commonly do, hunting from power boats with blinds attached, so long as the motor is not in operation and forward progress has ceased.
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]Further, s. 16(2) MBRs provides a notwithstanding clause to s. 15(1)(e) that allows for the use of a power boat when retrieving a migratory bird. In practice, this supports the requirement placed on a hunter under s. 16(1.1)(a).
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]s. 16. (1.1) A person who kills, cripples or injures a migratory bird shall
[COLOR=#1f497d](a) immediately make every reasonable effort to retrieve the bird;
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]s. 16. (2) Notwithstanding paragraph 15(1)(e), a power boat may be used for the purpose of retrieving a migratory bird.
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]In summary, the MBRs don’t contain a section that prohibits the possession of a loaded firearm in a power boat. They do however prohibit the person from hunting a migratory bird from a power boat (as described in s. 15(1)(e) ), except where otherwise provided in the MBRs. In Ontario under the FWCA, there is a prohibition from having a loaded firearm in or on, or discharging a firearm from a conveyance. The FWCA appropriately makes reference to an exception to this offence if the person is hunting migratory birds from a motorboat in accordance with the MBRs. The specific section reads ...
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]FWCA s. 17.(1) A person who is in an area usually inhabited by wildlife or who is on the way to or from an area usually inhabited by wildlife shall not,
[COLOR=#1f497d](a) have a loaded firearm in or on a conveyance or discharge a firearm from a conveyance, except if,
[COLOR=#1f497d](ii) the conveyance is a motorboat and the person is hunting migratory birds in accordance with the regulations under the Migratory Birds Convention Act,1994 (Canada);
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]I would add, any person attempting [COLOR=#1f497d]to retrieve a migratory bird they have crippled or injured as per s. 16 MBRs, [COLOR=#1f497d]should do so in a manner that best ensures the safety of themselves and others; and once the crippled bird has been retrieved or the hunter’s attempt to retrieve the bird has ended, their firearm if loaded, should be immediately unloaded.
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]Thanks,
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=black]Gerry Brunet
[COLOR=black]
[COLOR=black]Environment and Climate Change Canada / Government of Canada Operations Manager, Wildlife Enforcement Directorate, Enforcement Branch, Ontario Region, South Central District
[COLOR=black]867 Lakeshore Road, Burlington, Ontario L7S 1A1 [email protected] / Tel: (905) 319-6974 / Fax: (905) 319-697
----
It still doesn't make sense to me that under the MBCA it is illegal to hunt from a power boat. I agree this is quite clear. Then there is a section that says a power boat may be used to retrieve crippled birds. If this didn't indicate that one could have a loaded firearm in the boat and discharge it for the purposes of retrieving cripples, then why is it even there as the first section prohibits the loaded firearm activity without needing the other section. I've talked with many MNRF law enforcement officers that differ and don't agree on the interpretation of the law. I think that may be possible with this federal guy as well in my opinion.
Why not just power over to where the cripple is,kill and lift the motor,then,get the paddles. As long as the motor is out of the water,you can float around with a loaded gun all day if you want. Besides,it's a lot quieter and ducks aren't prone to diving if you take your time.
Well Trimmer, the law definitely allows shooting from a boat while retrieving ducks. Your question indicates you have never retrieved wingtipped cans or redheads in open water with about a two foot chop !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I don't know about you guys, but my 21' aluminum doesn't paddle very well. As well, divers are called 'divers' for a reason. They dive, whether you're having a cup of tea while trying to paddle over to them or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
-N.
There are so many scenarios where you have no choice but to shoot from the boat to retrieve a cripple, but here is one:
I'm layout boat hunting a mile off shore in Lake Ontario. The man in the box wings a bluebill that sails 300yds downwind. I fire up the tender boat and give chase. I get almost in range of it when it dives.....
Now what??
S.
Well here it is guys. We can finally close this thread.
MNR redirected my email to Enviro Canada and here is their answer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[COLOR=#000000]Dear Joel,
[COLOR=#000000]
[COLOR=#000000]Thank you for contacting Environment and Climate Change Canada's Public Inquiries Centre.
[COLOR=#000000]
[COLOR=#000000]In regards to your email, our program staff have advised that hunting from a moving boat is not permitted, not even shooting an injured bird, while the boat is in motion. Here is an extract from our FAQs for Hunters page (https://www.ec.gc.ca/rcom-mbhr/defau...566470E-1#_006):
[COLOR=#000000]
[COLOR=#000000]Question: What are the regulations around retrieving migratory game birds and subsequent use of harvested birds?
[COLOR=#000000]Answer: The regulations require hunters to have an adequate means of retrieving birds and immediately make every reasonable effort to retrieve a migratory game bird that has been killed or injured, and if it is still alive that they kill it immediately. A power boat may be used to retrieve a crippled, injured or dead migratory game bird. However, you may not shoot at a migratory bird while the boat is in motion.
[COLOR=#000000]
[COLOR=#000000]
[COLOR=#000000]Best regards,
[COLOR=#000000]
[COLOR=#000000]Jeronim Bosna
[COLOR=#000000]Public Inquiries Centre
[COLOR=#000000]Communications Branch
[COLOR=#000000]Environment and Climate Change Canada
[COLOR=#000000]4905 Dufferin Street
[COLOR=#000000]Toronto, Ontario M3H 5T4
[COLOR=#000000][email protected]
[COLOR=#000000]Telephone: 416-739-4826
[COLOR=#000000]Facsimile: 416-739-4776
[COLOR=#000000]Government of Canada
[COLOR=#000000]Website: www.ec.gc.ca
[COLOR=#000000]
[COLOR=#000000]Jeronim Bosna
[COLOR=#000000]Centre de renseignements à la population
[COLOR=#000000]Direction générale des communications
[COLOR=#000000]Environnement et Changement climatique Canada
[COLOR=#000000]4905, rue Dufferin
[COLOR=#000000]Toronto (Ontario) M3H 5T4
[COLOR=#000000][email protected]
[COLOR=#000000]Téléphone : 416-739-4826
[COLOR=#000000]Télécopieur : 416-739-4776
[COLOR=#000000]Gouvernement du Canada
Site Web: www.ec.gc.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[COLOR=#000000] Please take notes : "hunting from a moving boat is not permitted, not even shooting an injured bird, while the boat is in motion."
Some CO's might let you do it, but its against the law.
Which is what many of us have been saying the whole 10 pages of this thread....Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Wheelerdude
Well done 3WD
Two foot chop? Oh,yeah. That would tricky,to say the least.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
I didn't consider retrieving with such a large watercraft. That,to me,would would be almost impossible. A small canoe towed behind your duck boat can save a pile of hassle. I've seen others use them and they work quite well. Just a suggestion......Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprite
Can this thread be finally put to bed ? I'm tired of eating "pop corn "Quote:
[COLOR=#333333][COLOR=#000000] Please take notes : "hunting from a moving boat is not permitted, not even shooting an injured bird, while the boat is in motion."
Some CO's might let you do it, but its against the law.
A small canoe towed behind my layout tender in wide open water on Lake Ontario in a 2-3' swell sounds like a death trap to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
-N.
3 wheelerdude
Hold on Huston, we have a problem. I just spoke with Jeronim who is at the front desk environment Canada. I shared with him the email from Gerry Brunet, Assistant Director of Wildlife Enforcement(Federal). He confirmed to go with Gerry and Mark's interpretation which I have included.
It seems we are in this debate due to how the federal regs and the provincial regs are articulated.
Read the last paragraph of Gerry's letter:COLOR=#1f497d]I would add, any person attempting [COLOR=#1f497d]to retrieve a migratory bird they have crippled or injured as per s. 16 MBRs, [COLOR=#1f497d]should do so in a manner that best ensures the safety of themselves and others; and once the crippled bird has been retrieved or the hunter’s attempt to retrieve the bird has ended, their firearm if loaded, should be immediately unloaded.
[COLOR=#1f497d]Hello [COLOR=#1f497d]Jim[COLOR=#1f497d]. Mark and I discussed your request., Brune…
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]T[COLOR=#1f497d]he scenario you describe[COLOR=#1f497d]d in your below email[COLOR=#1f497d] would be acceptable and in compliance with the Migratory Birds Regulations (MBRs), as well as the Ontario Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act (FWCA).
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]From a[COLOR=#1f497d]n[COLOR=#1f497d] enforcement perspective, an officer would need to observe or be satisfied the hunter was actively engaged in retrieving a [COLOR=#1f497d]wounded[COLOR=#1f497d] migratory bird[COLOR=#1f497d]. If an officer were satisfied the person was retrieving a migratory bird there should be no issue as per s.16(2) MBRs and s. 17(1)(a)(ii) FWCA. [COLOR=#1f497d]If[COLOR=#1f497d] not satisfied, an officer would likely investigate or charge the person for illegally hunting from a power boat (MBRs) or having a loaded firearm/discharging a firearm from a conveyance (FWCA).
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]The general rule under the Migratory Birds Regulations (MBRs) regarding hunting from a power boat is found at ...
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]s. 15(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) and section 23.1, no person shall hunt a migratory bird
[COLOR=#1f497d](e) from any aircraft, sailboat, power boat, or motorized vehicle, or any vehicle to which a draught animal is attached.
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]The MBRs offer an exception to the general rule for a power boat found at ...
[COLOR=#1f497d]s. 2(3) A reference in these Regulations to the use of a power boat does not include the use of a power boat when the motor is not in operation and forward progress has ceased.
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]As you're likely aware, s. 2(3) allows for migratory bird hunters to operate as they commonly do, hunting from power boats with blinds attached, so long as the motor is not in operation and forward progress has ceased.
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]Further, s. 16(2) MBRs provides a notwithstanding clause to s. 15(1)(e) that allows for the use of a power boat when retrieving a migratory bird. In practice, this supports the requirement placed on a hunter under s. 16(1.1)(a).
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]s. 16. (1.1) A person who kills, cripples or injures a migratory bird shall
[COLOR=#1f497d](a) immediately make every reasonable effort to retrieve the bird;
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]s. 16. (2) Notwithstanding paragraph 15(1)(e), a power boat may be used for the purpose of retrieving a migratory bird.
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]In summary, the MBRs don’t contain a section that prohibits the possession of a loaded firearm in a power boat. They do however prohibit the person from hunting a migratory bird from a power boat (as described in s. 15(1)(e) ), except where otherwise provided in the MBRs. In Ontario under the FWCA, there is a prohibition from having a loaded firearm in or on, or discharging a firearm from a conveyance. The FWCA appropriately makes reference to an exception to this offence if the person is hunting migratory birds from a motorboat in accordance with the MBRs. The specific section reads ...
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]FWCA s. 17.(1) A person who is in an area usually inhabited by wildlife or who is on the way to or from an area usually inhabited by wildlife shall not,
[COLOR=#1f497d](a) have a loaded firearm in or on a conveyance or discharge a firearm from a conveyance, except if,
[COLOR=#1f497d](ii) the conveyance is a motorboat and the person is hunting migratory birds in accordance with the regulations under the Migratory Birds Convention Act,1994 (Canada);
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]I would add, any person attempting [COLOR=#1f497d]to retrieve a migratory bird they have crippled or injured as per s. 16 MBRs, [COLOR=#1f497d]should do so in a manner that best ensures the safety of themselves and others; and once the crippled bird has been retrieved or the hunter’s attempt to retrieve the bird has ended, their firearm if loaded, should be immediately unloaded.
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]Thanks,
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=black]Gerry Brunet
[COLOR=black]
[COLOR=black]Environment and Climate Change Canada / Government of Canada Operations Manager, Wildlife Enforcement Directorate, Enforcement Branch, Ontario Region, South Central District
[COLOR=black]867 Lakeshore Road, Burlington, Ontario L7S 1A1 [email protected] / Tel: (905) 319-6974 / Fax: (905) 319-6976
[COLOR=black]
[COLOR=black]Environnement et Changement climatique Canada / Gouvernement du Canada Gestionnaire des opérations, Direction de l'application de la loi sur la faune, Direction générale de l’application de la loi, Région de l'Ontario, District Sud-Central [email protected] / Tél.: (905) 319-6974 / Téléc: (905) 319-6976
[COLOR=black]
[COLOR=black]Confidentiality Warning: This message and any attachments may contain PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION and is intended only for the use of the recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, conversion to hard copy, copying, circulation or other use of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender by return e-mail, and delete this message and any attachments from your system.
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]
From: Robbins, Mark (MNRF) [[email protected]]
Sent: November 3, 2016 2:39 PM
To:
Cc: Brunet, Gerry (EC)
Subject: RE: Shooting cripples/waterfowl hunting
[COLOR=#1f497d]Hi Jim,
[COLOR=#1f497d]I always enjoy the Ontario Out of Doors questions. They are always interesting questions and always questions that many outdoors people share – yours is one of those common questions too.
[COLOR=#1f497d]Because the answer comes from a regulation under the federal Migratory Birds Convention Act I am going to ask my friend Gerry Brunet from Environment Canada to provide the answer, I want you to have the best information from the best source.
[COLOR=#1f497d]Thanks for writing and take care,
[COLOR=#1f497d]Mark
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#244061]Mark Robbins
[COLOR=#244061]Provincial Enforcement Specialist
[COLOR=#244061]Enforcement Branch
[COLOR=#244061]Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry
[COLOR=#244061]300 Water Street, 1st Floor
[COLOR=#244061]Peterborough, ON
[COLOR=#244061]K9J 8M5
[COLOR=#244061]
[COLOR=#244061]Phn: 705.755.1775
[COLOR=#244061]Fax: 705.755.1757
[email protected]
[COLOR=#244061]
[COLOR=#244061]ENFORCEMENT BRANCH MISSION: To safeguard the public interest by leading and delivering professional regulatory protection of Ontario’s natural resources.
[COLOR=#244061]This electronic transmission, including any accompanying attachments, contains confidential information that may be privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law, and intended only for use by the recipient named above. Any distribution, review, dissemination or copying of this communication by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete the copy you have received. Thank you.
[COLOR=#244061][COLOR=#244061]P[COLOR=#244061] Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]
From: jim
Sent: November-03-16 12:28 PM
To: Robbins, Mark (MNRF)
Subject: Shooting cripples/waterfowl hunting
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Can you show me where in your email, you have confirmation that you can legally shoot from a moving boat???Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn
Because I showed you , black on white, where they are telling me its against the law.
[COLOR=#333333]I would add, any person attempting [COLOR=#333333][COLOR=#1f497d][COLOR=#333333]to retrieve a migratory bird they have crippled or injured as per s. 16 MBRs, [COLOR=#333333][COLOR=#1f497d][COLOR=#333333]should do so in a manner that best ensures the safety of themselves and others; and once the crippled bird has been retrieved or the hunter’s attempt to retrieve the bird has ended, their firearm if loaded, should be immediately unloaded.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Wheelerdude
Nothing but crickets.....??Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinker
It's seems like that statement is more so to back up the fact that he seems to think a loaded firearm in a boat under power is acceptable...(scenario, cripple bird, run out with boat while firearms are still loaded, stop boat and motor, shoot cripple and unload firearms) Notice how he doesn't come out and say that discharging at cripples while the power boat is operating is acceptable?Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Stop your boat where it dove and wait for it to resurface and then shoot it? Not that hard... May not get it the first time but eventually you will... I chase crippled divers in a kayak in calmer waters...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinker
It would be,for sure. Just going out on Lake O this time of year would make me very nervous,indeed,canoe or no canoe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprite
The word BOAT, or SHOOTING or MOTION/MOVING is not even in that paragraph.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Try again!
Did you read this part? [COLOR=#333333] as per s. 16 MBRs,Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Wheelerdude
S.
I totally agree. I suggested that 100 posts ago!Quote:
Originally Posted by steelshed
That is the method we use and it works. Might be a bit more difficult, but its 100% legal. I promise!!!
Yes. Still nowhere does it say you can shoot from a moving boat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinker
I would seriously be happy if you point it out. That would make my hunting easier.
But I have an email that says clearly its illegal to shoot from a moving boat, chasing a cripple or not.
SS, this is a practical way of doing things, did it twice the other day when the water was so calm that noise made an issue for surfacing ducks. However some days due to wind/waves shutting the motor off is less than practical and contributes to loss of bird.Quote:
Originally Posted by steelshed
I think everyone here are serious about what we do and we like to do it properly and certainly not have to look over our shoulder while doing it.
I have personally spoke with all three of these individuals...Mark, Gerry, Jeronim. Mark is the Provincial Specialist, he will try to address this issue in an upcoming OFAH magazine in his column...'Ask a CO' Gerry is virtually the head guy in the Federal Wildlife Enforcement Division, his advise/opinion should be of importance.
When I spoke with them I was clear......boat under power with loaded shotgun for the SOLE purpose of finishing off a cripple.....am I legal. Their answer was yes.
I realize reading some of this material and even talking to others who may be in a position of authority can be conflicting. Today Jeronim pointed to Provincial Regulations and Federal Regs and at times they are less than clear.....boy I think we could agree with him there.
Hopefully we have few cripples to deal with and our retrievers can handle the workload!
Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn
I hope you can get something in writing. You know what they say about words.
Imagine me sitting in front of a judge : - Mr. Judge a guy on a forum told me he spoke with Jeronim and was told it was legal to shoot from a moving boat at injured birds.
- Well mister, didn't you get an email response from Environment Canada saying it was illegal?
You can deduct what the verdict would be....
3 wheeler...I have to agree with you when one gets into these contentious issues. That's why I've asked our Enforcement Specialist to do a column on this for an upcoming issue .... however it's clear to me in the regs what we can do.......
I usually look forward to reading the new magazine. Now I am truly excited about the one that will clear this up once and for all.Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn
Thank you.
So if retrieving a cripple is still considered hunting I have a new scenario. What if I'm hunting a stake line with a 300 meter rule and im set up 200 meters away from it in a layout. I wing a bird and it sails out past 300 meters, is the tender not allowed to finish off the bird? Of course the tenders motor is off and all forward momentum has stopped.
Tony
No you would not be allowed to discharge beyond the 300m. You simply can't ignore laws for the purpose of retrieving a bird or dispatching a crippled bird. You would just have to try and net the bird. Eventually you will tire it out. Every good tender boat has a good net. You also wouldn't have to shut the boat down for this retrieval method.
My good tender boat usually has a retriever, to chase cripples. It's the CRACK cocaine of retrieves. Sometimes I need to shoot them first though while still under motor power.
The law doesn't "Allow" people to do things, it forbids certain actions. Shooting cripples from a boat under power is not forbidden.
Busy weekend on the big water this past weekend. Saturday had a boat come right to our setup, wondering what this guy was doing he opens his camo coat to flash his badge, checked us all out and on his way he went. I was upset I had forgot to ask his opinion on this matter although I already know his opinion. He carries on to check out the guys hunting a blind very close to our location, we down a hen can only to have it cripple and sail off inbetween us and them. Like every other cripple we had two guys jump in the boat and go to retrieve our bird. Took three shots all the while under power inbetween each shot and her diving and surfacing to put her in the boat. All this while he watched less than 200yds away.............funny he never came back and talked to us.............
Like I said it was a very busy weekend and I watched several crews retrieve thier birds in this same maner.............I think the three/four guys arguing against this are the ones in the minority............just sayin.........looking forward to the OOD mag that this issue will be in, please give us a heads up if you know it will be in the next issue.......... I'm thinkin there are going to be some guys who need to start hunting crows.....
I know its a long thread, but in post #98, I asked the question to the Ministry responsible for Migratory Bird Hunting and they responded saying that IT IS forbidden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Labber
I cant wait to see what OFAH will post on this. It will clear things up, because the law isn't always clear.
Whether its forbidden or not is moot point to me. If I have a cripple down, I'm going after it and getting it no matter what. If that means we chase it under power and shoot it, then so be it. If anyone wants to give me a ticket, I will see them in court and fight it tooth and nail. I don't think there is a judge in the country that would charge me for anything.
S.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinker
Yup my point exactly, I knew damn well a C O was watching me but that wasn't going to stop me from going to dispatch and retrieve a bird I had crippled.
You would have likely been charged had you not retrieved the duck!Quote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
Definitely reason for no loaded guns under power, few years back canoeing down a river hunting ducks a boat comes by with a guy sitting in the front with gun up to shoot every duck that jumped, screwed the next 3hr of paddling for us.
yes I have shot a cripple while moving, but with the CO around and watching I wouldn't take the chance, I would have made attempt to retrieve it with out the boat moving.
What makes you think the OFAH will be more clear on this than the MNR?Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Wheelerdude
I think the only answer that you will be happy with, is the one that you want to hear.
Why not read the law yourself, and then act as you see fit.
Yes, and so you should be!!! The regulation CLEARLY says you MUST IMMEDIATELY retrieve and KILL any wounded bird by any means, and that you can use a powered boat to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Nowhere does it say it is prohibited to kill a crippled bird in a moving boat.
I was with Duckslayer on the weekend and we watched every crew of guys do the same as us, and the CO watched with no questions asked. We watched guys chase crippled birds inside the stake lines, and out past the 300m mark. I also watched a guide turn away from a crippled drake canvasback, but only because he is an and is known for that kind of thing down that way. The same guy ran out and shot crippled ducks from his moving boat several times, he just couldn't be bothered to go too far out of his way to get this one drake. He also came in late after we were set up, and set up 70yds down wind of us and totally cut us off. I was pissed!!
The bottom line is you have to get that bird no matter what!!!
S.
This is exactly why the regulation was written. Its to prohibit guys from running up to a flock of ducks and unloading on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabmgb
Slowly chasing down a cripple and shooting it while at idle is a whole different thing.
Its not like we are running full out blasting at birds. We are slowly idling along just keeping up with the bird and shooting it when a safe opportunity arises.
To me that is immediately retrieving and killing my crippled duck by any reasonable means using a powered boat.
S.
I have read the law and have been following what I interpret it to be. To me it reads that it is illegal to shoot from a moving boat, no matter what.Quote:
Originally Posted by Labber
So when it was brought up that this article might mean something different, I asked the makers of that law. And you know the answer I got by now.
I will be more than happy if OFAH can get a CO to write down that it is legal. You must know how much easier it will make my retrieves since you have been doing it that way the whole time....
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Quote:
Originally Posted by sabmgb
You are not referencing a guy chasing down a cripple to dispatch it you are referencing a guy breaking the law shooting unharmed ducks out of a powered boat hence what that law was intended for, not for a guy dispatching his cripples, there for has no meaning in this ongoing argument.
To be honest I don't care what is printed in the OOD it is not going to change the way I go after my cripples, I just hope it can clue a few guys in!! And by few I mean few there are only 3/4 guys who see it the way they see it and like it has been stated it doesn't matter the answer anyways they are dead set that there way of thinking is the correct way.................Quote:
Originally Posted by Labber
Sorry but you guys are bending the laws to conform to your standards of hunting. The regs do not state that you must retrieve a bird by any means... it states you must make every reasonable attempt to retrieve yours bird... if you did this you will not be charged for not retrieving your bird.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinker
Hopefully you guys never have any incidents, but if you do get charged and convicted in the courts then suffer the consequences. Not worth it to me.
So by your standards you could shoot pass legal times, trespass or why not use a 22lr to get your bird....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinker
Now you are just getting ridiculous......................lets keep it on track here..............We know nothing is going to change your mind so lets just let it be and you keep letting birds get away and we will keep retrieving ours the way we know we can (right in front of a C O).
OK quite simply. It is UNLAWFUL to transport a loaded firearm in a vehicle or vessel. It would therefore be unlawful to discharge said firearm while the vessel is in motion. Like it or not the Firearms Act trumps the excuses being set forth on here about the need to recover game.
Well seems like they could... doesn't say it's prohibited to use a rifle to kill a cripple, doesn't say it's prohibited to use lead to kill a cripple, doesn't say it's prohibited to discharge after legal hours to kill a cripple, hell why not trespass, otherwise you'll get charged for not retrieving your bird. These rules only apply to those hunting migratory bird just like the moving boat/motor off....Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Wheelerdude
What a joke lol
Now you're just making stuff up !Quote:
Originally Posted by steelshed
Sorry but we just don't seem to have that problem... Wait till your in front of the wrong COQuote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
The only thing ridiculous here, is you thinking that you have to break the law to be an effective hunter.Quote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
Take better shots and wait until the boat is stopped before shooting. I am not the only one using this method with success.
HOW SO!?!?!Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Pushing the boundary on those laws is going to far for you guys?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Wheelerdude
C O didn't seem to think I was breaking the law................and by the way this is the first time I have ever met and dealt with this particular C O, not like I know him or could even tell you his name at the moment. Actually it was 2 C O's one stayed in the boat the other boarded ours.
You can hack on how good of a hunter I am all you want...........I pride myself in loosing as few birds as possible every season.
It's funny when people get backed in a corner or just don't like to admit wrongs they start throwing out all kinds of other ridiculous accusations and scenarios..........
Why don't you guys contact the specialist that Krack provided??? You contacted the MNR now give him a shot?????
I really don't care what a couple of you guys think I'm getting my birds the way 90% of diver hunters do!! Seen it all my hunting life!! Including several guides/outfitters doing it. Personally don't know anyone or have hunted with anyone who hasn't done it this way.
Give it up Duckslayer ! Those of us who actually do hunt and know the regs., will keep on doing what's allowed. No point in beating this poor horse anymore, and I think it's more like 99% of lake duck shooters that retrieve this way. The others just feed the coons and coyotes !Quote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
Yes I know I was being conservative on my 90%.............lol, trust me this thread and the people in it have no bearing on how I think or what I will keep on doing. I just want to see what they come up with next.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
We have been trying to contact Gerry Brunet. He doesn't seem to want to respond or call back... go figure. Every source that we have contacted has told us that it is not allowed. I don't care if you do it or everybody else does it, I personally find retrieving crippled divers very easy compared to puddle ducks being hunted in marsh land. I'm sure most legitimate duck hunters pride themselves on not losing birds. The thing that hurts the waterfowling community the most is that you come out and tell new hunters that it is allowed when we know for a fact that some CO's will charge people for doing it. Will you take responsibility if by some small chance a new hunter where to be charged and convicted based on the way you do things>
If we get Gerry Brunet to come out and say that discharging from a boat under power is not legal will you then concede?Quote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
Just because some C.O. lays a charge for this doesn't necessarily mean it is illegal. (may be) As mentioned earlier in my posts.....a judge or several of them will make the final determination and if one goes to the supreme court to argue it.... then the word will be final one way or the other. Law enforcement officers enforce laws based on their interpretation of the law (sometimes educated and sometimes not so much). Just because a person is charged by an LEO doesn't mean they will be convicted.Quote:
some CO's will charge people for doing it. Will you take responsibility if by some small chance a new hunter where to be charged and convicted based on the way you do things
I bet there isnt a C O who HAS laid a charge for this (in this senario) unless he was trying to throw the book at someone with multiple charges because the guy was violating several other regulations and in the end could be dropped in court. Like I said everyone I know does it this way and everyone I know has NEVER been charged for retrieving a cripple this way. I know a lot of good diver hunters............Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
This is all in good fun guys. I am glad to see we can exchange opinions without any name calling.Quote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
Keeps us busy while we are not out there hunting and we will eventually get an answer to all this!
I still think its illegal!!!!
You may be right. The law is written, so that a literal interpretation, would support your position. If that is the case, then even shooting from a canoe, is illegal. I think a judge would take into consideration, the intent of the law. But I'm no lawyer.Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnvizsla
I see the debate continues on. I give you guys credit for sticking at it. Here's some information:
Feel free to contact the editor of Ontario Out of Doors, Lezlie Goodwin or the managing editor, Ray Blades. They have both discussed the question with me that will be asked to the 'Ask a CO' column and are hoping it will appear in the January/February Issue.
I listed Mark Robbins, Provincial Enforcement Specialist, Enforcement Branch as a person to contact. I don't see that anyone did contact him.
By the way I received the following from Gerry today. He is the definitive answer by the way.
I understand we have some who wish to see things in print, don't blame you one bit so hopefully the magazine is on time and the Enforcement Branch have their prepared statement.
I remind some of the readers to re read the regs and pay close attention to the exceptions as stated to avoid misconceptions about what trumps what......
Duckslayer, thank you for your example!
RE: Fedral legislation
3:29 PM[COLOR=#000000]Gerry (EC) Brunet
[COLOR=#888888]To
[COLOR=#1F497D]Hi Jim.
[COLOR=#1F497D]
[COLOR=#1F497D]As a result of the recent correspondence had on this matter, I’ve elevated the issue to our Enforcement Branch (headquarters) for review and to clarify the issue for everyone involved.
[COLOR=#1F497D]
[COLOR=#1F497D]As I think you’re already aware, a formal request has been made to the MNRF from the Ontario Out of Doors magazine for a response to this matter in a future Ask a CO column. That said, the review I’ve referenced above will be used to prepare this response in consultation with MNRF.
[COLOR=#1F497D]
[COLOR=#1F497D]Thanks,
Hey Viz.....this section:Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnvizsla
LOR=#1f497d]FWCA s. 17.(1) A person who is in an area usually inhabited by wildlife or who is on the way to or from an area usually inhabited by wildlife shall not,
[COLOR=#1f497d](a) have a loaded firearm in or on a conveyance or discharge a firearm from a conveyance, except if,
[COLOR=#1f497d](ii) the conveyance is a motorboat and the person is hunting migratory birds in accordance with the regulations under the Migratory Birds Convention Act,1994 (Canada);
[COLOR=#1f497d]
[COLOR=#1f497d]I would add, any person attempting [COLOR=#1f497d]to retrieve a migratory bird they have crippled or injured as per s. 16 MBRs, [COLOR=#1f497d]should do so in a manner that best ensures the safety of themselves and others; and once the crippled bird has been retrieved or the hunter’s attempt to retrieve the bird has ended, their firearm if loaded, should be immediately unloaded.
This is the extract of the Federal Act that is the go to for reference.
Gerry Brunet...there's a name I haven't heard in a long time. 23 years ago I was hunting out of Moosonee with him and a couple MNR CO's. We were hunting snow geese on the coast. They told me that they were all up there doing a polar bear study, which I thought was weird, but whatever.
The following year they told me they were actually up there doing an investigation into goose hunters up north in the coastal communities and the polar bear study was their cover story.
ive done this in a boat with a electric trolling motor... think it took me about a half hour to finally get the thing! Fun times!Quote:
Originally Posted by mtaz
As with the majoprity of Federal Legislation around firearms there is a dissenting position in the Firearms Act.
Transportation of Non-Restricted Firearms
- 10 (1) An individual may transport a non-restricted firearm only if
- (a) except in the case of a muzzle-loading firearm that is being transported between hunting sites, it is unloaded; and
- (b) in the case of a muzzle-loading firearm that is being transported between hunting sites, its firing cap or flint is removed.
- (2) Subject to subsection (3), an individual may transport a non-restricted firearm in an unattended vehicle only if
- (a) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the non-restricted firearm is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked; and
- (b) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the non-restricted firearm is not visible from outside the vehicle and the vehicle, or the part that contains the non-restricted firearm, is securely locked.
- (3) If, in a remote wilderness area that is not subject to any visible or otherwise reasonably ascertainable use incompatible with hunting, an individual is transporting a non-restricted firearm in an unattended vehicle that is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, and the vehicle or the part of it that contains the non-restricted firearm cannot be securely locked, the individual shall ensure that the non-restricted firearm
- (a) is not visible; and
- (b) is rendered inoperable by a secure locking device, unless the individual reasonably requires the non-restricted firearm for the control of predators.
Hunting from a canoe is illegal if the canoe is driven by a motor (electric or motor). If you are paddling, you are fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Labber
As I see the law using a powered boat to retrieve a cripple (which may need to be dispatched to retrieve) is acceptable provided you aren't doing it in a dangerous manner (skipping across the water at 15km/h by yourself and then taking your hands off the engine as you travel that speed to shoot the cripple) or making the shooting your very first attempt at retrieving a cripple which could easily be retrieved (open water and the animal is simply flapping for example) would probably warrant charges. It wouldn't surprise me if that is one of the reasons for the ambiguity of the law's writing. This allows a CO to bring up a charge if he sees something extremely dangerous or stupid happening but lets a pass go for guys who have made repeated attempts to retrieve and have been unsuccessful because the duck is still very much alive and has to resort to finishing off the bird.
Dyth
Federal Firearms Regs don't apply in this instance. The firearm is in use, not merely being transported.Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnvizsla
Wow.....16 pages in.....has to be a record.
Correct!Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
The Firearms Act is the penultimate legislation regarding firearms in Canada.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Tomato, tomato but either way it stands to be an expensive splitting of hairs if you are going to rest on "its in use".
Remember not all law enforcement hunt, and some are straight out opposed to it, despite its legality.
Though it may be the responsible way to collect ducks, on the wrong day you may find yourself gunless, boatless and staring out a set of bars.
Be patient, bring them in to gun range, not just perceived gun range and this problem will take care of itself.
Have to disagree with the gunless observation as I have discussed the issue at length with the top MNR Enforcement officer and the Federal Enforcement Branch as well. They were extremely clear in their responses. I do hope they are clear in their response in an upcoming magazine.Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnvizsla
I am 100% behind your last statement though. Nothing could be clearer than that. If people understood the effective killing range then there would be fewer cripples. I know s$%^ happens, not all shots are perfect but better to shoot over the 'blocks' and have a much higher rate of clean kills. The diver shooters here know how tough that can be though and chasing birds is inevitable.
The problem with that theory is simple.
The MNR is so underfunded that there are no where near enough COs out there.
Which means the police respond to the majority of hunting complaints.
The FWCA mean nothing to the police as they are not trained in it.
The Firearms Act however they will have some knowledge of.
If a police officer sees gun discharged from vessel under power the storage and transport rules will apply.
Wrong !!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnvizsla
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnvizsla
Vis,
I see the argument you're trying to make since we have various levels of enforcement but in my experience police have always gone to MNR when unsure. I guess any officer who believed they were witnessing something unsafe may intervene but it's not going very far.
By the way you have several officers both retired and not who have replied to the thread.....all with the same opinion.
In the end we should all police ourselves such that anyone feeling uncomfortable should act accordingly. Personally I would still consider shooting cripples from a boat that is moving. You likely would never see me roaring across the water with a loaded gun but I certainly would stay on top of a diving cripple ready to finish the job....as stated in the regs.
I think many here are not long time diver hunters thus not exposed to the type of situation that can be very common in a given day.
I think some of the posters on this thread have a vision of us running out on plane, loaded gun in hand, chasing birds at full speed and shooting at them. Its not like that at all. Idling up to a crippled duck (and they all dive if they are crippled, in fact mallards and geese are some of the sneakiest cripples to retrieve if they are just wing clipped), one person on the engine, one person at the bow ready to shoot in a safe direction when the bird surfaces is a far cry from dangerous. I would say 95% of the time, the boat is stopped anyways, waiting for the bird to re-surface. If not stopped, its hardly moving, at idle at best.
Saying to wait for birds to be in range doesn't work either. Trust me, I let birds work until they are fully committed. In fact, the guys I hunt with probably get pissed because I wait too long, and often times the birds are well within range, but I don't call the shot because I feel they are going to make another pass. I like them wings cupped, feet down in the decoys. That's why I am out there. Killing birds is second, I just love to watch them work the spread. Even birds in range can be crippled, and we all know it happens.
Regardless, I will be retrieving birds with my boat when it needs to be done. The number one priority is safety, and second is retrieving any birds we may cripple. If my boat is slowly moving along just fast enough to keep the bird in range, and we get hassled for it, I will fight it tooth and nail in court. Its up to the judge to decide, not all the internet CO's.
S.
Funny thread...
Bob
Exactly Sinker, well put.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinker
I agree with Sinker .
Can't believe this is still going on and on ... surprised it has not been extended to other grey areas, such as "if you down a bird, and your buddy finishes it off, who's bag does it belong in?" ... or ... "If you shoot your 6 birds and your buddy can't hit anything but air ... do you put your gun away and sit there waiting for him to limit as well?". Things like this could make another 17 pages of argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadwall
Hahaha you just had to didn't you Steve.......lol
What's your opinion on the already ongoing.........lets call it a discussion????
Quote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
Ah ... where's the point in adding with an opinion ... I do it the way I always have and I feel it is completely safe ... I will just say the letter of the law and logic do not always mix.