Solar for Camp TV

A chum of mine has given me his second satellite dish for use at camp but unless the system has a small source of power to keep the receiver powered up, the unit has to be brought back into town for rebooting every week or so when the TV isn't used. That's a royal pain in the butt. The TV, camp lights run off my generator when I'm there.
He's suggested a solar panel would do the trick.
So, question is, what and how large a panel, charge controller, battery, etc. is needed to keep a battery charged so that the receiver has enough juice to operate for extended times while I'm away?

I have Star Choice and I leave receiver at camp.

Sorry Sawbill, I wasn't ready to send, wrong key. My receiver holds it's signal for about 5 weeks, so if I go in in this time frame everything works good. If you have cell service and no receiver signal, you can call Star Choice ( Shaw ) and they just re-boot it, takes very little time.

Unfortunately I don't have cell service nearby so that's why I have to go with the solar system to keep it up.
You get about 5 weeks! Man, I'm lucky to get 5 days.

Go to home depot and get a kill-o-watt. Plug your receiver into it and see what it's consumption is when the receiver is turned off. Multiply that by 24(hours). For example if it is drawing 1 amp X 24 then you need to supply 24 amp/hr of power. That is 24 amp/hr at 120 AC BECAUSE your receiver plugs into a 120v ac outlet. To figure out the DC current draw you have to multiply the 24 amp/hr @ 120 by 10.
So now you need to supply 240 amp/hr over the course of the day. You will need to use an invertor to supply the 120 ac from a dc battery bank( notice I said bank as in a group of batteries).

Now your system may not ( likely will not draw) draw a full amp when turned off. But you would need to have enough battery storage to supply power over the full 24 hours with room to spare. If you discharge your batteries more then 20%( starter/car battery) or 50%( deep cycle) on a daily basis you will destroy them very quickly. You will only get up to about 4.5 hours of full sun each day. What that means is that an 80 watt panel that can make 6 amps will only do that for 4.5 hours per day IF there are not clouds and the panel is clear( no snow, dust/dirt). It will still generate just not the full 6 amps. So over the hours of day light it will start off giving a few milliamps and build to the full 6 amps and then reduce back to a few milliamps before the controler disconnects it.

As a guess I would think if you had two 80 watt panels and good sized battery bank with a small 100 to 150 watt invertor it should work. You would want a battery bank with four times the reserve that the system can draw in a day. So if your system draws 240 amp/hrs in a day, four 12v 240( or more ) amp/hr lawn mower batteries will give you a 960 amp/hr and should only discharge to about 20% ( which makes them last along time).

This is just a rough estimate. If you can give more details it would help.

Sawbill, I did a very light search on google. From what I could see with cursory glances, many receivers draw
25-45 watts when in use
5 watts when not in use.

I use some goal zero products to power a number of different things when I don't have electricity.
The "generator" (battery) I have will hold 150 watts. If Im running my LED lights ( 2 of them that draw 3 watts each), by the numbers I'll get 25 hours run time on a full charge and no trickle charging. If Im running or charging my laptop I might get 3 hours run time or take about 6 hours to charge my laptop( it uses more watts). So on paper, my small battery could run a receiver that draws 50 watts for 3 hours. Enough to watch a movie or two each night.

To charge the battery:
I have two 40 watt panels. From a full drain, and on a bright sunny day, it will take close to a full day to recharge. The benefit to these batterys though is I can recharge them numerous ways. By plugging it into a standard outlet ( A gas Gen), my Car, the sun...

As snowalker said. Determine the draw, figure out the watts and go from there.
You can also buy larger batterys but they come at a cost, a steep one. If you have a couple grand burning a hole in your pocket you can buy one big enough to run your satellite, tv or a small fridge. So you could in theory bring the battery (solar generator) back and forth with you as I do. When you go to camp its fully charged, hook it up to 2 or 4 40 watt panels or 2 80w panels and leave it trickle charging. If it drains and my car is nearby, I can if I really need to, charge it from my car. The problem with solar is who knows what the weather is going to be. If your socked in for 4 days and no sun....And subsequently cold temps.
They kneecap batterys.

These are in US prices
http://www.goalzero.com/power-packs

If you check the specs for the 400 watt battery, if gives you and idea what you can run and for how long from a full charge, and it claims a 90 watt panel, will recharge it from zero in 9-18hours of full sun. Take that with salt.

If you need to leave it hooked up as you do, your probably going to run into more problems with the batteries, than the panels. Cold temps when your not there heating the camp, will gut them.

I'm making the assumption that you have a Bell receiver. If so, the unit does not need to be connected 24/7 to prevent the programming from falling off. A few hours a day powered up is all that is needed to ensure your programming is still there. If you can get some sort of mechanical timer, you wouldn't need all the battery power required for a full time connection.

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Originally Posted by delmer

I'm making the assumption that you have a Bell receiver. If so, the unit does not need to be connected 24/7 to prevent the programming from falling off. A few hours a day powered up is all that is needed to ensure your programming is still there. If you can get some sort of mechanical timer, you wouldn't need all the battery power required for a full time connection.

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Shaw direct doesnt use cards.. so it needs to be connected to the satelite... or it loses its authorization.... and than u need to call in and get it connected again.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

Why not just buy a second dish they are a dime a dozen on kijiji. Bring it home and use it there as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, its a Bell receiver. Looks like I have to do some shopping for more gadgetry to get this thing up and running. I think this receiver is drawing 4 or 5 amps (according to the label on the back) but I'll check that out and make sure.
Todays technology is great but it sure ain't simple!

Draw listed on the label is when its running. The comment on getting a kill-a-watt meter is right... and the Sudbury libraries have them on loan for free.

You'll need a solar panel and charge controller to maintain a battery, and an inverter for the battery to 120v conversion. The inverter will have losses as well. You're looking at a couple of batteries, a 100w panel, and all the bits and pieces. A friend just picked up one of these kits on amazon... https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00B8L6EFA?...T1-EVAL-TBJQLT

Good price for a 100w panel and the charge controller. Now add two batteries... as you'll need a long enough backup for a couple of cloudy days. Assuming this is up there in the winter you'll also need to factor in reduced production due to snow on the panels.

A smaller inverter will have less standby losses.

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Originally Posted by JBen

If you need to leave it hooked up as you do, your probably going to run into more problems with the batteries, than the panels. Cold temps when your not there heating the camp, will gut them.

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Cold temps will allow the panels to over generate( an 80 watt may give you 86-90watts in the cold). A battery that is near a full charge will generate heat and in cold weather that helps the battery. What that means is that a battery that is being charged in cold temps will be heated by the charge current. This happens because the battery will never reach 100% in the cold. It will always be just short of 100% so the the charge current pushing against the INTERNAL resistance of the battery will make heat with in the battery case. You can trap that heat by insulating the batteries and preservation of heat keeps that batteries strong. A good use of this idea is to put a battery tender changer on you car battery and plug it in. The charger will top up the battery but because it can never get it to 100% it will keep you battery charged and "WARM".

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Originally Posted by northernontario

Draw listed on the label is when its running. The comment on getting a kill-a-watt meter is right... and the Sudbury libraries have them on loan for free.
A smaller inverter will have less standby losses.

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You should also tell him that his inverter is most efficient running at 80%. So a 100 watt inverter is most efficient supplying a 80 watt load. over or below 80% the net losses increase. It's like a car engine that gives the best fuel economy at 90Km/h above that the engine has to work too hard, and below that it's losing too much in gearing. Not a direct comparison but that is the idea.

That was a big question I had. The guy who gave me the satellite dish (I'm thinking now of going over to his place and punching him in the nose) has bits and pieces of stuff he wants to give me. I'd rather buy a compatible package. So, if I get a 100W panel for instance is the size of the inverter important?

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Originally Posted by sawbill

That was a big question I had. The guy who gave me the satellite dish (I'm thinking now of going over to his place and punching him in the nose) has bits and pieces of stuff he wants to give me. I'd rather buy a compatible package. So, if I get a 100W panel for instance is the size of the inverter important?

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The charging system and the inverter are different systems. The batteries are just a part that they both have in common. You have the inverter system with an inverter just a little bigger then you need, and a battery bank with enough reserve capacity to supply power. You have the charger system with solar panels that can deliver enough amps to recharge the batteries in the hours of daylight you have, and a battery bank that will be full charged in the hours of day light you have. I think I said before that the panels will still give you power as long as there is enough light on them but I will try to expend on the idea.

Lets say you have 6 hours of light per day and you are using two 80 watt panels( 160 watts total).
you will get:
3 hours of 100% power, 2 hours of 50% power, and an hour or 30% power, before and after that the controller will disconnect to protect the batteries.
So that breaks down to 3 hours of 10 to 12 amps( 30 to 36 Amp/hrs), 2 hours of 6 to 7.2 amps( 12 to 14.4 Amp/hrs) and one hour of 3 to 3.6 amps( 3 to 3.6 Amp/hrs)

All together you will get 45 to 54 Amp/hrs. That means that you have put 540 to 648 watts into your batteries to use. That comes up short of your 240 amp/hrs or 2880 watts per day. But the good news is that I don't think your receiver will be drawing a full amp when turned off. I suspect it will be only a few Milliamps.

Does your receiver have a power supply that you plug one end into the wall and the other end with a round plug that plugs into the receiver? Most of the Satellite receivers I have seen have a 12 DC input for power. If the receiver has a power supply with a 12 Volt output you can remove the inverter from the system and things get very simple. By that I mean even if your receiver draws 1 amps @12 Volts over 24 hours that is only 24 Amp/hrs or 288 watts. Only half(50%) of the amp/hrs or wattage your solar panels can put into the batteries.

I am working with 1 Amp only because I don't want to under estimate what you need. If you can tell me the output voltage and amps of your receiver's power supply that would help, because if you can feed it without an inverter it's a lot easier. Even if it's something like a 32V DC input it can be done.

Thanks Snowwaker.
the problem I run into though is at night when it can't charge. When the air around the battery is zero or below, I've woken up in the morning to a dead unit. I've taken to insulating it, and have been thinking about buying a small cooler I don't mind drilling a hole into.

My "solution " is portable power, as that's what I need. So it could just be a difference in the batteries. But yep, have learned when at deer camps, or other once into November and night temps drop below zero, if I can't keep it warm, it can be dead in the am.

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Originally Posted by darren123

Why not just buy a second dish they are a dime a dozen on kijiji. Bring it home and use it there as well.

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That would be the simplest and most cost effective way to solve your problem, unless you were already intending to set up a solar system for the camp. Mount a second hand dish, run coax to the receiver. Doesn't even need to be hooked up to a TV. Take it with you when you go, bring it home when you leave.

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Originally Posted by JBen

Thanks Snowwaker.
the problem I run into though is at night when it can't charge. When the air around the battery is zero or below, I've woken up in the morning to a dead unit. I've taken to insulating it, and have been thinking about buying a small cooler I don't mind drilling a hole into.

My "solution " is portable power, as that's what I need. So it could just be a difference in the batteries. But yep, have learned when at deer camps, or other once into November and night temps drop below zero, if I can't keep it warm, it can be dead in the am.

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What are you running with the battery? a C-pap? and how often and how long between charges? If it is a c-pap, don't play around with minimal gear you need to breath. A long hard day in the fresh air, a big meal and a drink( or a few) with friends and you may not even notice when you choke to death.

Hehe. Don't want to take away from Sawbills enquiry. Listed that stuff to give him a rough idea, of draw, watts, charge and battery capacities. The stuff works for me because I need portable power. I don't go back to the same places often, am in the field a fair bit. Have cameras to keep charged, my laptop occasionally needed because I'll be generating tons of pics and need to download them, and for convenience to power lights.

Will say when "not in use" I tend to keep trickle charging it, or if not that, plug it in to AC once a month, to keep it cycling.

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Originally Posted by JBen

Hehe. Don't want to take away from Sawbills enquiry..

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Not a problem in the least! Good information being exchange here even if I have to have a friend interpret most of it for me.

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Originally Posted by sawbill

Not a problem in the least! Good information being exchange here even if I have to have a friend interpret most of it for me.

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I guess sending you schematics to build a 30Amp Solar charge control would not help then....:joker:


Did you look at the back of your receiver and see if it has a 12 Volt power socket? Most model of receivers I have seen have a 12 Volt socket. The power supply for you receiver has a list on one side...

Input: this will be 120 Volts AC
output: This will be 12 Volts DC

What model of receiver do you have? If you tell me the model I can look up all the info I need.

Brought the receiver in from camp today so this is what I have:
Model:DE01, DE04, DE06
There is also a sticker with a model no. 3100 which maybe refers to the Main board.
Connections on the back: Satellite In, S Video, Rt Audio, Lt Audio, Video, TV Set Out, TV Antennae/Cable in, Phone.
There's also a small channel switch 4 & 3.
The power cord is 120V~60Hz, 40 watts
On the front of the receiver it has Bell ExpressVu 3100

.....and I don't know where the face came from!

Simple,

Buy the 40 watt package at CTC http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/0112043P.html or Princess Auto. I got when it was on sale for $79.00. It comes with a charge controller and everything needed to charge a battery. Mount on a wall out side with a good used or new 12 battery. I charge during the day if I am not parked in full sun lite and it is enough for 6hrs of watching a 19" LED TV, with laptop connected to play movies in the truck camper.
Attachment 34036

The LED TV is 40watts .38 amps
The laptop draws 30watts when charging .26 amps
I have the cheap 200Watt inverter from CTC (draws .4 amps under heavy load)

I only charge the laptop in full sun lite when charging battery.

About 1 amp for system

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Originally Posted by line052

The LED TV is 40watts .38 amps
The laptop draws 30watts when charging .26 amps

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Your numbers are off just a bit. Your tv and laptop( well charging) do draw .38 and .26 amps but the is at 120 volts AC. The total load on your battery including loses in the inverter is around 6 amps @12 v DC.
You system supplys 165 watt/hrs and the load( tv and laptop) only draw 72watt/hrs.
I assume you are running the laptop off it's internal battery when watching tv.

By the way you can add a scond panel to your system up to a maximum of 80 watts between all panels. 40watts X 2 or one 80 watt panel. That would charge the battery faster, over let you charge a larger battery or battery bank. If you plan to add more batteries, you have to add them together, and do NOT mix old with new. If you dicided to add a second 40 watt panel and have two batteries, you need to buy two new batteries. You can not just add a second battery to the system, because the old battery would damage the new one.


There is a 10 to 1 ratio between the amps. To supply 1 amp @ 120v AC the inverter has to draw 10 amps at 12v DC. 1 amp at 120v AC is 120watts. Amps X volts equals watts. 10 amps at 12v DC is 120watts. Or for 120watts at 120v you need 1 amp. For 120 watts at 12v you need 10 amps.

Ok, got the Kill-A-Watt from the library and the receiver shows .16 amps while turned off. Thankfully, that's a lot less than the 1 amp you were working with in your examples. Now all I need to know is how large a panel and inverter that will give me some elbow room and I'm off to the races.

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Originally Posted by sawbill

Ok, got the Kill-A-Watt from the library and the receiver shows .16 amps while turned off. Thankfully, that's a lot less than the 1 amp you were working with in your examples. Now all I need to know is how large a panel and inverter that will give me some elbow room and I'm off to the races.

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Yes it is. I was using 1 amp at 120 volts....10 amps at 12volts.

So here is the numbers
Your receiver use: 38.4 amp/hrs ( just call it 40amp/hrs) at 12 volts DC.
That is 460.8 watt/hrs( just call it 500 watt/hrs).

So here is the easy part..
Since you only have to prove .16 amp at 120 volts or 19.6 watts...You can use any small inverter you like., but spend a couple dollars and get a good brand( cobra or ct model).

CT has a deep cycle battery ( product # 10-3199-6) it would give you almost three days run time without recharging it(100% discharge..)

As for solar panels I would not go with less the a 100watt panel. That will give you about 40.8amp/hrs in six hours of day light.

In the real world I would want to double that to a 200 watts panel ( two 100 watt panels or combination to make 200 or more watts).

If you had three hundred watts of panels, two of the batteries, a charge controller that can handle 25 amps or more( CT sells a nice digital that handle 30 amps), you should have more then enough so you would not have to worry.

CT sells 150 watt panels for about 600 each. Solar panels have a 25 to 30 year life on average but with care they can last a few decades. You are looking at dropping a few bucks, but the system ( except batteries. They have a five year life span) will last for 30 to 40 years.

Guess the price tag is the hard part.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

CT has a deep cycle battery ( product # 10-3199-6) it would give you almost three days run time without recharging it(100% discharge..)

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OK, just so I understand: The 3 days run time you refer to is the time I will get out of the receiver while turned off, and being charged at the same time by the solar panel.
Once I go back to camp I can fire up the generator and fully charge the battery. I'll be away for a month holiday in Texas so I'll have to disconnect the receiver, bring it home and plug it in here. This make sense?

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

In the real world I would want to double that to a 200 watts panel ( two 100 watt panels or combination to make 200 or more watts).

If you had three hundred watts of panels, two of the batteries, a charge controller that can handle 25 amps or more( CT sells a nice digital that handle 30 amps), you should have more then enough so you would not have to worry.

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Very similar to what I run at my camp:

- 200 amp-hours of 100% discharge deep cycle battery
- 200 watts of solar panel
- 400 watts of windmill (for those snow covered months)
- 12 V LED lighting
- 12 V on demand water pump
- 12 V LCD TV/DVD player (draws 19 watts combined when running) - no satellite.
- 1500W continuous 1750W peak pure sine inverter for charging cordless tools, etc..

After 6 to 7 days use with 3 or 4 guys during the rifle hunt in november the lowest the battery has gotten is 60% and that was a few years back when the weather was snow and overcast the entire week.

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Originally Posted by sawbill

Once I go back to camp I can fire up the generator and fully charge the battery. I'll be away for a month holiday in Texas so I'll have to disconnect the receiver, bring it home and plug it in here. This make sense?

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If you have a generator with a 12V output for direct charging or otherwise you will have to use a battery charger plugged into the generator. Alternatively you could probably use jumper cables off a running vehicle - perhaps Snowwalker could chime in on this as I am not sure if the charge rate would be problematic or not.

What about taking receiver home with you , boot it up at home before going to camp and it should be good when you arrive. Our signal lasts week even with the generator running off and on and signal is still there.

I was trying to get away from disconnecting the receiver every time as I already have o/b motor, gas, generator, fishing equip, chainsaw, food, coolers, and all that gear to be loaded that can't be left overtime at a camp.
Disconnecting is certainly the cheapest way to go but its a bit of a pain in the butt.

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Originally Posted by sawbill

OK, just so I understand: The 3 days run time you refer to is the time I will get out of the receiver while turned off, and being charged at the same time by the solar panel.
Once I go back to camp I can fire up the generator and fully charge the battery. I'll be away for a month holiday in Texas so I'll have to disconnect the receiver, bring it home and plug it in here. This make sense?

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No what that means is that the battery has almost three times the amp/hrs that the receiver draws in a day. So if something happened to the charging system you would have about three days before the battery is 100% discharged. If the temp was below freezing not only would it be discharged but likely frozen too.

So you would to want to build in a little extra safety margin in the charge system for the days that the battery(ies) don't get a full charge. If you have a fair amount of wind you could always put up a wind turbine as you main power source and have the panels as backup...The wind blows for a lot more hours then the sun shines.

A 400 watt turbine operating for 12 hours would make up to 400 amp/hrs and if it ran for 24 that is 800 amp/hrs.

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Originally Posted by Species8472

therwise you will have to use a battery charger plugged into the generator. Alternatively you could probably use jumper cables off a running vehicle - perhaps Snowwalker could chime in on this as I am not sure if the charge rate would be problematic or not.

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Jumpers to a vehicle is not a problem. Charger plug into genny is fine as long as charge current is not more then 10% to 15% of battery's amp/hr rate. For example a 54 amp/hr battery can be charged with 4 amp but not more then 6 amps. 10% of 54 is 5.4.

Also species you should never nominally discharge deep cycle batterys more then 50%. If you measure the voltage at the battery and it is below 12.2 it is at or very near 50% discharged.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Also species you should never nominally discharge deep cycle batterys more then 50%. If you measure the voltage at the battery and it is below 12.2 it is at or very near 50% discharged.

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This is very true about when a battery is discharged at 50% a lot of people do understand this when running of batteries. When a battery is discharged 50% it halves the discharge life (cycles) and shortens life of battery.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Also species you should never nominally discharge deep cycle batterys more then 50%. If you measure the voltage at the battery and it is below 12.2 it is at or very near 50% discharged.

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We never let the batteries get below 12.3. Also important to note that the voltage measurement needs to be open circuit or you will get a false number (high if charging and low if under load).

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Originally Posted by Species8472

We never let the batteries get below 12.3. Also important to note that the voltage measurement needs to be open circuit or you will get a false number (high if charging and low if under load).

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Sawbill maybe is wishing he never opened this can of worms you know. Just wait till we start talking about voltage drop and conductor resistance by gauge. Couple months ago I had to buy 16 feet( eight feet per side) of 4/0 stranded wire to supply power from my batteries on the truck frame up into the cab to power my inverter and Ham Radios. I plan to add HF and VHF Amplifiers in the future so I included them into the choice of wire size.

I like to look at the voltage in the open circuit and under load. Seen times when the open circuit was a good 12.6 volts or better, but under load it drops to 12.0 or worse.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Sawbill maybe is wishing he never opened this can of worms you know.

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Never mind Sawbill, I'm getting dizzy reading all of this stuff! Excellent info though as I'm thinking of doing something similar at my cabin.

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

Never mind Sawbill, I'm getting dizzy reading all of this stuff! Excellent info though as I'm thinking of doing something similar at my cabin.

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Best advice I can give is if you have a cabin where you can put a turbine in a steady Breeze you will get a lot more power for your dollar. I know your up near the saut so an on shore breeze is possible. Just do not attach the turbine support to you cabin at anytime. You can attach it to a building you don't live or sleep in. The vibrations from the support pole/tower can be heard through the walls.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Best advice I can give is if you have a cabin where you can put a turbine in a steady Breeze you will get a lot more power for your dollar. I know your up near the saut so an on shore breeze is possible. Just do not attach the turbine support to you cabin at anytime. You can attach it to a building you don't live or sleep in. The vibrations from the support pole/tower can be heard through the walls.

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Wind, may well be a better option for my situation? The cabin/property is on a north facing slope with a lot of tall trees/bush behind? Winter months the sun is scarce? I've been doing a bit of research and reading your info is a big help.

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

Wind, may well be a better option for my situation? The cabin/property is on a north facing slope with a lot of tall trees/bush behind? Winter months the sun is scarce? I've been doing a bit of research and reading your info is a big help.

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If you use turbines you want wind that does not shift around. The trees could cause turbulence that is hard on your turbine. If the wind blows mostly out of the north( since you face north) if you put tge turbine high( 50 to 60 feet) without trees in front then you should get a good amount of power.

While this has been a bit of a nightmare wading through all the info you guys have taken the time to put out I'd like to say Thank You for all your input.
I've more than enough info now to set up a system that's needed to keep me happy on those long winter nights at camp. The only problem is now I can be reminded just how lousy the leafs are even while I'm at camp.

Do you have cellphone reception at camp? Call Bell and ask them to reset the receiver. Been there, done that.

No, I don't have cell service there. That's kinda part of the problem.