Savage 303 ammo

Does anybody have any info on Savage 303 ammunition, I have an old Savage 1899 rifle but my ammo is limited. There has been talk on and off about different manufacturers producing these but I have found nothing out there. Even reloadable brass is getting hard and expensive to find. Last rumour I heard is that there was a company out west somewhere that was planning to produce and sell these...anybody else hear this or know of anything to do with this caliber.
Also combined with this...how many times can you reload a rifle shell?? I have no experience with reloads.

Depends on how heavy you load and what model/style of gun they are used in. I don't keep track when I reload as I use them until they start to split and don't have any that are known for pulling off the heads (SMLE).

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Originally Posted by patvetzal

Depends on how heavy you load and what model/style of gun they are used in. I don't keep track when I reload as I use them until they start to split and don't have any that are known for pulling off the heads (SMLE).

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303 Savage, not 303 British.

Budget Shooter supply seems to have stock. $99Cdn for 100 new unfired.

I'd buy one or two bags and reload until they fail. You'd likely be able to shoot for a few years before you'd have to buy more, depending on how much you want to shoot it.

http://www.budgetshootersupply.ca/ca...s_Cases_56.cfm

You can also form them from 303 Brit and 30-40 krag, if you can find either of those at a better price.

Would it not be simpler to make them out of 30-30?

Thanks Bluebulldog, I will definately check them out, funny they have never come up in all my searches.

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Originally Posted by Gerald

Would it not be simpler to make them out of 30-30?

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I have heard of this but because the taper in the casing is different, it throws out the accuracy somehow, there is a Savage forum and the guys there have tried everything but always come back to original casings being the best.

I mean as opposed to using 303 British or 30-40 Krag. Regarding case taper, fire forming will take care of that. Correct?

Try Shooter's Choice ... I was looking at a Savage 99 recently in 303 and enquired about ammo .... decided on the 308 instead .
Glen

The 303 savage cases listed for sale are for boxer primers. Are these suitable for reloading with ordinary large rifle primers. or do they not have a different flash hole. So your priming pin will not work. Just unclear about this . I have a 303 savage, that was passed down to me , by my uncle . Many years ago.thanks old 243

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Originally Posted by old243

The 303 savage cases listed for sale are for boxer primers. Are these suitable for reloading with ordinary large rifle primers. or do they not have a different flash hole. So your priming pin will not work. Just unclear about this . I have a 303 savage, that was passed down to me , by my uncle . Many years ago.thanks old 243

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Boxer primers are standard single flash hole type primers. Berdan primers use two small flash holes.

Most reloadable brass is for boxer primers. The reason it's listed at all, is that the brass is from Serbia, where lots of ammunition is manufactured, is Berdan primed.

Thanks for the explanation blue. I had run into the berdan primers before. A good way to damage your depriming pin. Is there a way to decap and reuse berdan primed brass or are they one time use. Don't have any , just for info. thanks old243

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Originally Posted by old243

Thanks for the explanation blue. I had run into the berdan primers before. A good way to damage your depriming pin. Is there a way to decap and reuse berdan primed brass or are they one time use. Don't have any , just for info. thanks old243

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There's a few guys on youtube who show how to basically drill a small hole to enable Berdan brass to be used with boxer primers. Never tried it myself, since most berdan brass I've come across is mostly one shot mil-surp quality.

Wow! I apparently have a lot to read up on if I am going to start reloading...some great info guys, anything else that you might think of that could catch me off guard feel free to let me in on it as it looks like it may be my only avenue.

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Originally Posted by Gerald

I mean as opposed to using 303 British or 30-40 Krag. Regarding case taper, fire forming will take care of that. Correct?

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Even though fire forming is an accepted practice, I'm not sure it would work here...the main body on the 303 is larger than the 30-30and I would think that might be more susceptible to rupture or damage to the chamber??? Here is a pic with four of the casings I've read about when it comes to this subject Attachment 34090and looking at them the Winchester is the closest. From left to right - Win 30-30; Savage 303; Win 308; 303 British. If I scratch my head anymore I will be bald!!

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Originally Posted by Gerald

Would it not be simpler to make them out of 30-30?

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The 30-30 cartridge would be my choice, the difference between the two is fairly close. You'll need a set of 303 Savage loading dies, if you don't already have them. A case trimmer to adjust case length, although it's pretty negligible. Now my question, is it an old enough gun, to be a true .303 bore or is it the later .300 bore. If the former, you might need to expand the cartridge neck, a bit, to receive the .311 bullet, I believe they make a tool for doing that.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

When was the 303 savage ever made with a .311 bore?

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

The 30-30 cartridge would be my choice, the difference between the two is fairly close. You'll need a set of 303 Savage loading dies, if you don't already have them. A case trimmer to adjust case length, although it's pretty negligible. Now my question, is it an old enough gun, to be a true .303 bore or is it the later .300 bore. If the former, you might need to expand the cartridge neck, a bit, to receive the .311 bullet, I believe they make a tool for doing that.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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According to my serial number, it is a 1904 gun. I have read conflicting articles... 1. that Savage rifles were never bored to a .311" diameter, the 303 cartridge was loaded with a .311" bullet, but the bore of the rifle was .308 2. that the rifles changed from .311 to .308 when??? You guessed it around 1904 but no specific date has been proven. Anybody out there that can verify or disprove any of this would be helping a lot. Thanks for the info Gun Nut!

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Originally Posted by Gerald

When was the 303 savage ever made with a .311 bore?

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Why do you thinking they were call a .303 Savage, they were originally manufacture with .303 barrel, that the Savage company manage to get their hands on. This was before the standard barreling for .30 caliber U.S. manufacture firearms was switch to .300. Savage not wishing to be the odd man out switch the barreling of their 303 Savage to .300. There are still a few of those early rifles around, and if you fall heir to an early .303 Savage you probably should slug the barrel or have a gunsmith do it for you to check the diameter of the bore. Those .308 bullets flying out of .311 bore tend to fly a bit erratic unless they are being pushed kind of slow. There is a manufacturing interest that supplies special orders of .303 Savage ammunition with the .311 bullet for rifles with the original barreling, you should be able to find them on the internet, if you have one of the original .303 caliber rifles.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Gerald

Would it not be simpler to make them out of 30-30?

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Easier but dangerous. The .30-30 has a thinner rim, so you could never achieve proper headspace. That is why people use .30-40 Krag more than any other. followed by .303 British. Both require a lot of case work to get the rim correct.

The last .303 Savage ammo was made about 5 years ago by Hornady. 150-grain only. It shot poorly in my .303.

I usually load lever cartridges about six times and then discard. If your rifle will allow you to just neck size, you can load a lot of times.

Additionally, there is no evidence that the RIFLES were evr .311' bore, just that the ammo was loaded with .311' bullets. Apparently the Savage gurus of the time thought the tighter fit would help accuracy. This came to me from the website master at Savage99.com

Thanks for the info KC. I had not considered the rim thickness.

Checking with Cartridges Of The World, the 30-30 and the 303 savage both have the same rim thickness, that being .063 so it would seem that would not make for a head space problem.

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Originally Posted by Gerald

Checking with Cartridges Of The World, the 30-30 and the 303 savage both have the same rim thickness, that being .063 so it would seem that would not make for a head space problem.

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I can no longer trust my memory!

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Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie

Additionally, there is no evidence that the RIFLES were evr .311' bore, just that the ammo was loaded with .311' bullets. Apparently the Savage gurus of the time thought the tighter fit would help accuracy. This came to me from the website master at Savage99.com

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Hi Kilo Charlie, My information on the .303 Savage originally having a .311 bore came from a forum posting back in 2002. The reference used to confirm this was the case - Legendary Sporting Rifles, by Sam Fadala in the chapter on the Savage 99.

I'm not sure I would want to run a .311 bullet down a .308 bore, it's not recommended, at least for jacketed bullet. They suggest that you not exceed the bore diameter by more than .001, with cast bullet you can get away with .004 over bore diameter. The other thing would be chamber throat tolerance, I have a 30-30 that has real trouble accepting a bullet much over .308 in diameter. Having said all this the Germans in WW II converted their older .318 Mauser to shoot the newer .323 spitzer bullet by enlarging the throat of the chamber. The spitzer slug had a short bearing wall, so had little affect on chamber pressures. However it's not recommended if you have one these old guns that you try the same trick with modern hunting slugs with longer bearing walls. So I definitely would attempt to push a .311 diameter 190 grain jacket hunting slug down a .308 bore, you might end up with a bit more pressure than you bargain for.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie

Additionally, there is no evidence that the RIFLES were evr .311' bore, just that the ammo was loaded with .311' bullets. Apparently the Savage gurus of the time thought the tighter fit would help accuracy. This came to me from the website master at Savage99.com

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I agree here, never heard of one being .311, but you can push a lead buckshot through the bore to slug it and see what your bore actually is, might be slightly larger than original, might be much larger. Lead cast and sized to fit would work. I would not shoot anything cast larger unless you know exactly what you have, a tighter fit in the bore can spike the pressure very fast and turn your gun into a bomb.

Found this on 24 Hour Campfire; why you cant use .30-30 to make .303 Savage. I was close but no cigar, LOL!

1) The 30-30 brass is narrower at the base, which means it's going to expand by .02" when you fire it risking case failure.
2) The 30-30 brass is .02" longer, meaning that if it even chambers it very likely will be up against the rifling and could crimp the bullet in raising pressures.

Even if resized, the .02" difference at the base would keep me from EVER using 30-30 brass in a 303 Savage rifle. It's just not worth the chance of serious case failures.

30-30:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...winchester.jpg


303 Savage:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...303_Savage.gif

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Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie

Found this on 24 Hour Campfire; why you cant use .30-30 to make .303 Savage. I was close but no cigar, LOL!

1) wheThe 30-30 brass is narrower at the base, which means it's going to expand by .02"n you fire it risking case failure.
2) The 30-30 brass is .02" longer, meaning that if it even chambers it very likely will be up against the rifling and could crimp the bullet in raising pressures.

Even if resized, the .02" difference at the base would keep me from EVER using 30-30 brass in a 303 Savage rifle. It's just not worth the chance of serious case failures.

30-30:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...winchester.jpg


303 Savage:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...303_Savage.gif

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.442 minus .422 is . 20 thou. not .02 thou. , a very dangerous and significant difference in the dia. of the base.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

.442 minus .422 is . 20 thou. not .02 thou. , a very dangerous and significant difference in the dia. of the base.

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Anneal the whole case and try blowing it out ( I use about 5 grains of Unique topped with a bit of Kleenex, fill the remainder of the case with cream of wheat and seal the case mouth with a wax plug, the case should fire form to the .303 Savage chamber. If that doesn't fully form it to the bottom of the shoulders. Then loaded it with a light charge (5 grains of Unique) and use a pellet of buckshot to create some back pressure, that should complete the full expansion of the shoulders. If I were doing I would probably use a light cast bullet instead of a buckshot. Always check the bore to ensure its clear after each firing. I've used the method to expand 7.62 x 54 R brass to the size of 43 Mauser chamber, so I know there is a lot of stretch to the brass.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by jaycee

.442 minus .422 is . 20 thou. not .02 thou. , a very dangerous and significant difference in the dia. of the base.

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You are correct. No-one said it was .02 though, this symbol " designates inches, so it is .02 INCHES, or, as you point out, 20 thou.

Checking the 12th ed. Of the Cartridge of the World, I found this historical note:


“Originally developed as a potential military cartridge in 1895, the 303 Savage was later introduced commercially as one of several chamberings for the popular Savage Model 1899 lever action. Savage discontinued this chambering when rifle production was resumed after World War II. In England, it is known as the 301 Savage. No new rifles are chambered for this round at present.”


General Comments go on to add:


“Dogma holds that the 303 Savage is not a true 303 but instead uses standard 0.308 - inch bullets. However, current SAAMI specifications call for a bullet of 0.311 - inch. Measurements of bullets on three lots of each of two makes of World War II - era factory loads yields mixed results. Some were 0.308 - inch +, others 0.310 - inch +.”


So the original true diameter would appear to have been .301 not .303 or .300. Also it would appear that they may have been just as spastic rifling these .301 barrel as they were rifling the .303 barrels, of the day. I take from what is said, that the switch to .300 caliber appears to have come after World War II.


You don’t stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

They were measuring bullets, not bores. Anything I ever read was that the .303 Savage rifles always used a .308" bore.

Don't go by Brit nomenclature: They still call the 7mm Mauser the .275 Rigby.

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Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie

They were measuring bullets, not bores. Anything I ever read was that the .303 Savage rifles always used a .308" bore.

Don't go by Brit nomenclature: They still call the 7mm Mauser the .275 Rigby.

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The point of the historical note was to point out that the original barrels were not .300 caliber, but rather .301 caliber. The bullets they measured were merely evidence of that fact. The .311 bullets was initially used and are still recommended if you have one of the prewar Savage rifles. They were not used in the .308 bore as a ploy to up the pressure, attempting such could blow the gun up. If you have a rifle that was manufacture after the WW II, it will have a .308 groove diameter and require the .308 diameter bullet. The reality is if someone has one of those older rifles, they might not be getting the best of accuracy by using the .308 bullet, and might be interested in having their bore diameter check, and if it is the larger bore. They may wish to special order a box of .303 Savage ammunition with .311 bullets to see if things improve. Don't write the English off as not knowing what they're talking about. There is a lot of nomenclature out there that doesn't belie the true caliber of a firearm. If you could actually find a bullet with a .270 diameter, shooting it in a .270 Win. would demonstrate the situation, I'm trying to put across about the older .303 Savages with under sized ammunition. The groove diameter of the .270 is actually .277. The .38 special is really a 354 caliber and can be used in a 357 Mag. The nomenclature of a firearm does not necessarily provide the specs for it's bore diameter. Bore diameters in the .303 British range anywhere from .309 to .317, I use .30 and .32 caliber pistol bullets in mine they make a great plinking and small game loads. Those calibers use a bullet on the jacketed end that ranges from .309 to .313, that puts the cast bullet in the .311 range which works if you have a tighter .311 bore, 303 British, again you only need light powder loads for those 80 to 95 grain slugs.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

Thanks for the info guys, you raised more questions and provided more answers so great conversation...I have some bullets that I found a couple years ago to shoot for now and I am now looking into reloading so that when these are used I can reload them and hopefully that will do me until I figure out what new brass I can use. It is not my main gun but would love to hunt with it a bit. It was handed down through my wife's family...she will be the fifth generation...her brothers don't shoot and neither does she so I was the default to hand it down to and her father was happy to keep it in the family and have it used. My boys will use it as well!
Thanks again
Until the next question....

Check for ammo everywhere you go. I travel a lot and I just found a store that had some old white-box Winchester (1980s vintage) .250 Savage 100-grain Silvertip. I bought all five boxes for $22.75 per box. You just never know. The last box of .303 Savage I bought retail was just before they closed Fife's Hardware in Kenora about ten years ago. I traded it to a guy in Ottawa for three boxes of .30-30 Winchester.

There are still boxes of the Hornady .303 Savage out there somewhere. Try running local ads and see if someone has some.

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Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie

Check for ammo everywhere you go. I travel a lot and I just found a store that had some old white-box Winchester (1980s vintage) .250 Savage 100-grain Silvertip. I bought all five boxes for $22.75 per box. You just never know. The last box of .303 Savage I bought retail was just before they closed Fife's Hardware in Kenora about ten years ago. I traded it to a guy in Ottawa for three boxes of .30-30 Winchester.

There are still boxes of the Hornady .303 Savage out there somewhere. Try running local ads and see if someone has some.

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Thats how I got the ones I have, I ask at every gun shop I go to, picked these up in Peterborough a couple years ago, the owner said his supplier offered them up and he thought what to heck...paid $60 for 2 boxes of 20 CIL Imperial 190 gr KKSP's, bought everything he had and left him my number in case he got more in...haven't seen any since anywhere though. I never tried putting out ads - great idea!
Thanks again for the info.