Garmin Astro/Alpha/ Update from Industry Canada

I continue to plod along trying to figure out what the Canadian Radio Advisory Board and Industry Canada are doing to resolve the issue around the use of the Garmin Dog Tracking system in Canada.
I got the following link from Industry Canada, they tell me it is a proposed modification to the licence requirements to allow for the use of a frequency.
I've read the thing many times. Best I can figure out they might allow it , if Garmin produces a collar that uses a different frequency. Doesn't sound good to me yet.
If there are some techy's out there that can help out. Please do.

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst...g/sf01320.html

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Originally Posted by Stuart22

Best I can figure out they might allow it , if Garmin produces a collar that uses a different frequency. Doesn't sound good to me yet.
If there are some techy's out there that can help out. Please do.

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It is simple the Freq that the current collars use are bought and paid for by license holders in Canada. If Garmin changes the Freq that the collar uses and apply for a licence to use that freq in Canada they can then sell them here.

Also if you have your Amateur Radio License you can change the freq to a near by ham Freq and use it here.

What happens if you buy a set in the US and just use it?

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Originally Posted by dilly

What happens if you buy a set in the US and just use it?

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The legal user of the frequency would need to see interference multiple times. They would then contact the DOC to have them check out the issue. Now unless you are a user within an area that a "legal: user is transmitting, and they are bothered by the interference on their units enough to report it, have enough knowledge to contact the DOC, and the DOC travel to the area to investigate on a day when you just happen to be using your unit, locate you using the unit, you just might be fined, equipment confiscated. I believe there is a better chance of you winning the lottery! I am told not to attempt to do any Garmin updates to the units , while in Canada, take the unit to the states if you have opportunities and do the updates. Some have said they have been successful while in Canada doing updates. That's the chances you take!

Merry Christmas

Dick

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Originally Posted by dilly

What happens if you buy a set in the US and just use it?

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You can't( legally ) use them here yet....Not type approved. That is about all I can really tell you. Not sure how fast the "Radio Police" will catch you, but if they ever did you could be in for a bit of trouble.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

You can't( legally ) use them here yet....Not type approved. That is about all I can really tell you. Not sure how fast the "Radio Police" will catch you, but if they ever did you could be in for a bit of trouble.

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Have you ever heard of any one being caught and charged?.
I know 4 groups that have been using them for years and have never experienced any problems with the so called radio police.
I have personally over the years asked and checked with volunteer and full times fire depts, and emergency measures services, no one has ever complained about any interference from these units.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Have you ever heard of any one being caught and charged?.
I know 4 groups that have been using them for years and have never experienced any problems with the so called radio police.
I have personally over the years asked and checked with volunteer and full times fire depts, and emergency measures services, no one has ever complained about any interference from these units.

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The only real example I can give is this.

Your 12 years old and drive an old 1/2 ton truck with no plates( meaning not registered to legal operate on the road) around the farm and in the fields. Your not licensed to drive on the road, and the old truck has no plates or insurance but as long as your not on the road you are going to be fine. This is like owning one of the collars in Canada. Simple owning it is not illegal. You can own a lot of thing you need a license to "operate", as long as you only own and don't operate them.

Now it's ok to drive around the farm buildings, but just across the road is the huge Cattle pasture with lots of places to drive. So you load up your brothers and sisters, or friends and drive straight across the road to the pasture. As long as your on the road you are illegal, when your not it's fine.

The chances of the cops seeing you has a lot to do with just where you are crossing the road. But if they ever do, you could just get a warning or you could get charged.

So with that in mind. Lets say that you got caught and got charged. I don't think we will be seeing you on the news. Simple because it's not important enough to be on the news. Now in the event that you were crossing the road and caused an accident, you are going to be all over the evening news.
So that covers the "Why have I never heard of anyone being charged?" question from non-radio people.

Secondly there is likely enough physical distance between parties ( people with collars and the Fire EMS people) to allow the very narrow channelled Radios to handle a very weak data signal( made weak by distance) from the collars. Any interference that Fire EMS people encounter would also likely be blamed on "other" things like power lines, Microwave links, or the terrain. Most would not hear interference on the radio and normally think..That must be one of those illegal dog collars.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Have you ever heard of any one being caught and charged?.
I know 4 groups that have been using them for years and have never experienced any problems with the so called radio police.
I have personally over the years asked and checked with volunteer and full times fire depts, and emergency measures services, no one has ever complained about any interference from these units.

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What I was trying to point out here, is that even though we have used these collars in close proximity to cities, no one has ever complained , even though I had asked.
What these collars have done , is enable us to keep close tabs on the dogs and when they go too close to city boundaries, we were there to cut them off and get them before they actually went into the city limits. We have on many occasions run coyotes into city limits, but were able to keep the dogs out due to the use of these collars.
As I have said , no one has ever complained about us.
Where I think the problem lies,is that the Gov.is not getting any revenue from these collars that are brought in from the U.S. and they are getting their knickers in a knot over the situation .
There are many groups of hounds men also quite a few bird dog people that use these collars province/country wide with no problems.

These collars are an absolute " boon " to men/women that run their dogs out of sight , be it hounds running coyotes or bird dogs that are over hill and dale well out of sight. With these collars the owners are always well aware of what the dog/dogs are doing, running/baying/treed or on point.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

What I was trying to point out here, is that even though we have used these collars in close proximity to cities, no one has ever complained , even though I had asked.
What these collars have done , is enable us to keep close tabs on the dogs and when they go too close to city boundaries, we were there to cut them off and get them before they actually went into the city limits. We have on many occasions run coyotes into city limits, but were able to keep the dogs out due to the use of these collars.
As I have said , no one has ever complained about us.
Where I think the problem lies,is that the Gov.is not getting any revenue from these collars that are brought in from the U.S. and they are getting their knickers in a knot over the situation .
There are many groups of hounds men also quite a few bird dog people that use these collars province/country wide with no problems.

These collars are an absolute " boon " to men/women that run their dogs out of sight , be it hounds running coyotes or bird dogs that are over hill and dale well out of sight. With these collars the owners are always well aware of what the dog/dogs are doing, running/baying/treed or on point.

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There are collars that use frequencies that are approved for their use as well. The Government is getting money from the licensed users the frequencies the astro/alpha collars are using. The paying customers are not Garmin, and they don't want people( companies like garmin) using them for free.
Truth be told Garmin does not want to make design changes to have the collars use Frequencies they ars already allowed to use because Garmin is Paying for them, or pay for more frequencies for the collars to use. Why? Because Canadian Markets are not big enough to be worse the cost.

Another perspective on this. Apparently those wildlife units we used for 25 years were illeagal. Who knew,,, no harm no fowl. If they are willing to look the other way so am I. There ain't enough of us to cause a problem.

You are also not allowed to fly a drone over people, or use a frs radio over one watt...nobody enforces any of these laws.

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Originally Posted by dilly

You are also not allowed to fly a drone over people, or use a frs radio over one watt...nobody enforces any of these laws.

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No you have just not heard about the guy at the beach that got charged for the Drone, because it does not make a evening news and you don't live next door. People get charged all the time, the just don't publish the people names in the local papers.

It seems like all the Ontario guys use Alphas and Astros.
In Alberta many use Sportdog Tek, they are scared of the Alpha out there, no one has much experience with it. Doesn't matter what you say, they won't believe you.

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Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

Question:
Can we shoot the drones?
Got a guy who flies his drone over my farm.
Been thinking of ways to get it gone.
Hmmmm...maybe Snow can teach me a way to "scramble" his frequency so the drone takes a nose dive into my pond.
....prolly gonna be a drone war around here in the spring!

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No you can't just shoot them...
But take your pick...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X27-2WDIZR0

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

No you have just not heard about the guy at the beach that got charged for the Drone, because it does not make a evening news and you don't live next door. People get charged all the time, the just don't publish the people names in the local papers.

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What did they get charged with and by whom?

Who would charge you for using a Garmin Astro and with what? Regulatory laws rarely equal "charges".

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Originally Posted by dilly

Who would charge you for using a Garmin Astro and with what? Regulatory laws rarely equal "charges".

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Industry Canada would charge you... The charges would be something like:

1) Operating a Non-type Approved Transmitter
( Since Garmin has never gotten Certifcation from Industry Canada for the Collars)
( Maybe 1 count for each collar and handheld you have. 1 collars, 1 handheld = 2 charges)

2) Operating without a license for the band
( Since you don't have a license for the band, and Garmin has NOT licensed it in Canada)

3) Causing willful interference to LICENSED uses of the Band.
( Can you prove you did not? Just asking some guy at the fire Department proves nothing)

Definitions:
BAND. A group or block of Frequencies or Channels Assign to a Radio Service or Type Of Equipment which transmit on Radio Frequencies.

Not the exact wording but a good reads Digest definition.

i believe the regulatory law which is the topic of this thread is meant for and would be directed at is for the manufacturer (Garmin) or a potential seller of the product (Cabelas or Bass Pro). I don't think anyone would care if you used them here. You might get burned at the border if a very thorough guard did some on the spot research and decided to detain the unit from being brought into Canada, but I would bet they would be more interested in your booze and tobacco. As far as anyone in Industry Canada taking the time to go through their legal dept to swear out an information and take you to federal court over a dog collar, I think the chances of that happening are about as remote as someone arresting you for copying a protected VHS movie.

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Originally Posted by dilly

i believe the regulatory law which is the topic of this thread is meant for and would be directed at is for the manufacturer (Garmin) or a potential seller of the product (Cabelas or Bass Pro). I don't think anyone would care if you used them here. You might get burned at the border if a very thorough guard did some on the spot research and decided to detain the unit from being brought into Canada, but I would bet they would be more interested in your booze and tobacco. As far as anyone in Industry Canada taking the time to go through their legal dept to swear out an information and take you to federal court over a dog collar, I think the chances of that happening are about as remote as someone arresting you for copying a protected VHS movie.

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Do you understand what Industry Canada is? You believe that you would not be charged for breaking the law?

Why don't you allow yourself to be a test case..? Tell how that goes.

It sounds like Snowwalker is a dog collar detective

Let's assume Garmin makes the required changes. If I buy the unit which is approved in Canada can I use it in the US?

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Originally Posted by Jnyiri

Let's assume Garmin makes the required changes. If I buy the unit which is approved in Canada can I use it in the US?

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There is the dig. If Garmin makes changes so that it gets approved for use in Canada..It now also has to go and have that unit approved for use in the US. If garmin can put the "new" model of Frequencies that it has permissions to use on both sides of the border having it approved in the us is just a rubber stamp.
If they have to use freq's for the Canadian model that are not allowed in the states then no.

With the collars already using GPS navigation and positioning systems, I can see a collar that automatically selects US or CDN frequencies being a very possible option if the collar had to use two different bands.

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Originally Posted by Mount Sweetness

It sounds like Snowwalker is a dog collar detective

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Not really:joker:

But I do some times feel like I am trying to explain why you can't put a out fire in the coal stove by turning on a gas light..

Look it up. When gas lights were first being put in homes, some people had strange ideas.. They believed that the gas light used up all the oxygen in the room and put out the burning coal in the stoves. When it is dark or dim in the room the coal burns and gives off a nice warm glow. But if you turn on the gas light then the coal stops burning, and we know this because the nice warm glow from the fire stops.

The repeatered phrase.."I don't know of anyone that got charged" seems to be some peoples main arguement. If a life guard told you the beach was closed because a shark was seen, but you never saw anyone get attacked would you still go swimming? You may swim there for years and never see an attack. Thing is people understand what a shark can do.. People that don't deal with Industry Canada and the Federal Communications Commission ( FCC in the US) as part of their daily life don't understand what the two agency can do.

If a life guard told you the beach was closed because a shark was seen, but you never saw anyone get attacked would you still go swimming?

Of couse not!
I would send the fat lady in to check the waters.
If she sang...well then it's over.
What's wrong with you Snow?
Are encouraging our members to disobey the lifeguards and go swim with the sharks?
My gawd man....you certainly know how to frighten the audience!

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Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

What's wrong with you Snow?
Are encouraging our members to disobey the lifeguards and go swim with the sharks?
My gawd man....you certainly know how to frighten the audience!

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Thats a big tourist thing in some places...some times without cages and they feed them...

I have eaten shark...I am in no rush to let one of them return the favor...

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Do you understand what Industry Canada is? You believe that you would not be charged for breaking the law?

Why don't you allow yourself to be a test case..? Tell how that goes.

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No need to get so upset Snowwalker. I am simply stating my opinion that I don't think an individual would register on any Industry Canada radar. Does Industry Canada have an enforcement section. I could turn myself in for using an FRS radio that transmits over one watt. Would you post my bail?

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Originally Posted by dilly

No need to get so upset Snowwalker. I am simply stating my opinion that I don't think an individual would register on any Industry Canada radar. Does Industry Canada have an enforcement section. I could turn myself in for using an FRS radio that transmits over one watt. Would you post my bail?

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Dilly, how do you manage to sleep at night?!

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Originally Posted by dilly

No need to get so upset Snowwalker. I am simply stating my opinion that I don't think an individual would register on any Industry Canada radar. Does Industry Canada have an enforcement section. I could turn myself in for using an FRS radio that transmits over one watt. Would you post my bail?

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The thing is...The collars like FRS/GMRS/CB/Baby Monitors are designed to use frequencies that industry canada has set aside for them, then they are tested by labs to be sure they meet the standards to be approved. Once they are approved they can be sold to people in canada. Now when you go to buy one of these, you are not asked to apply for or to have a license for it. This is because they fall under a class of devices that are considered licensed by possession. Simple that means if you bought it, you have a license to use it. But if the device was never approved you have no license to operate it.

Every toy, electronic device, car( yup transport canada answers to their boss Industry Canada) or anything that has to meet a safety to technical standard to be used in Canada is over seen by IC or one of it's smaller departments.

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Originally Posted by dilly

Does Industry Canada have an enforcement section. I could turn myself in for using an FRS radio that transmits over one watt. Would you post my bail?

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To answer your two questions.
Yes they do....
And NO. They are not going to lock you up. But you are going to get a large fine, which I would suggest you make every effort to pay. The interest rate on fines make CRS rates look like pocket change.

Now a question of my own? Why don't you and your buddies just your Ham licenses? You can use HTs that are way better then a FRS/GMRS radio. Use repeaters so you have radio ranges that can cover 20km not just across one concession. And you could switch the collars to a ham frequency and legal use them in Canada.....Did that get your attention?
So you and I both take a trip to the US and buy collars. Customs knows that they are not approved for use in Canada.....I show my Amatuer Licence and tell them I will be converting it to operate on a ham band, I get to keep it. They ask for your ham license and you don't have one.....do you think you will be going home with your new collar? And by the way saying it is going to be converted to the ham bands does you no good because you can't use it even it is.

One of the privileges of the hobby is experimental convertion of devices and the right to use "NON-APPROVED" devices with the Ham bands.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

...Did that get your attention?.

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Not really. I find this infinitely boring. I also think your analogies stink.

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Originally Posted by dilly

Not really. I find this infinitely boring. I also think your analogies stink.

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Well don't ask questions you don't like the answer to.

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Originally Posted by dilly

Not really. I find this infinitely boring. I also think your analogies stink.

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Boy have you hit the nail squarely on the head "WHACK" :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I run a garmin astro and will continue to do so. There are no government agents running around looking for dog guys using forbidden electronics.
Customs officials are not at the boarder to look for it either.

The old telemetry systems were approved. Somewhere in the last 35 years they were disallowed. I have both the letter approving the Wildlife Materials equipment from Industry Canada. I got it from a Regional Office . And I have a denial for a licence from Industry Canada for my unit that was bought in Ontario 15 years ago. . I think I was the only person to ever apply for a licence. The Regional Manager in my opinion was quite adamant with me , "he knew more than I did."It is a difficult situation, we have rules for everything.

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Originally Posted by Stuart22

The old telemetry systems were approved. Somewhere in the last 35 years they were disallowed. I have both the letter approving the Wildlife Materials equipment from Industry Canada. I got it from a Regional Office . And I have a denial for a licence from Industry Canada for my unit that was bought in Ontario 15 years ago. . I think I was the only person to ever apply for a licence. The Regional Manager in my opinion was quite adamant with me , "he knew more than I did."It is a difficult situation, we have rules for everything.

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I work in rules and regulations (not Industry Canada). With this kind of minor stuff, we usually wish you didn't ask and just went about your business which isn't bothering anyone.

I know this is an old thread, but I was offered a Garmin 430 by a friend who is a pro in the US. I just read that they will not track collars in Canada. But this will be re-enabled when in the US. Is there a way around this? I mean it will be great to have for running trials in the US but it would be great to be able to use it while at home as well.

The new Astro 900 from Garmin will work on both sides of the border and is legal in Canada.

I saw that, but the offer of the free 430 was a good one. The range on the 900 is significantly less then the 430 as well.

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Originally Posted by Dakota Creek

The new Astro 900 from Garmin will work on both sides of the border and is legal in Canada.

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I'd assume the 430 will work in Canada, just like the Alpha and the Astro. I have both of previously mentioned units, I have DC 40, T5 and T15 collars.

If anyone knows someone selling a Garmin 320 or even 220 to let me know. I'm not buying 6 new collars together compatible with the new 900 so I'm sticking with the 320. Gotta be a few out there that people aren't using anymore

Go to biggamehoundsmen.com They come up for sale quite often on that site. Check out Hound Hunting related classifieds ...

I know this is an old thread but my question is, can I purchase an Astro 430 in the US and legally bring it across the border on my return to Canada and be in possession of it without having it confiscated ? I realize they make a new 900 unit that can legally be used in Canada but I'm not interested in that one.
I called Canada Customs to inquire and they were not certain so they advised me that if issues arose at the border they would refer to Industry Cananda. So I called them and after being transferred four times I ended up having to leave a message and no one has bothered to return my call.

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Originally Posted by sidelock

I know this is an old thread but my question is, can I purchase an Astro 430 in the US and legally bring it across the border on my return to Canada and be in possession of it without having it confiscated ? I realize they make a new 900 unit that can legally be used in Canada but I'm not interested in that one.
I called Canada Customs to inquire and they were not certain so they advised me that if issues arose at the border they would refer to Industry Cananda. So I called them and after being transferred four times I ended up having to leave a message and no one has bothered to return my call.

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Cant see it being a problem as I know lots of guys that take their dogs/gps/collars to and from the states all the time. Maybe they dont let on they have it when they come back across? I'm not sure but everyone I know runs with Alpha 100 over the 430 because of the training options on the alpha.

I still have a 320, bought it in Texas, brought it across no problems.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Buy it and bring it back.
Never once heard of any issues at the border.
Canadians are allowed to own them.

Not quite certain how accurate this is or if it only applies to the newer units but according to Steve Snell of Gundog Supply and I quote " the radio functions that allows the dog collars to communicate with the hand held will be deactivated when used outside the US https://www.gundogsupply.com/astro-a...anada-use.html

Sidelock I call BS on what steve snell is saying. I have had a alpha since 2014 and have crossed the boarder over 30 times with the unit with no problems.

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Originally Posted by sidelock

Not quite certain how accurate this is or if it only applies to the newer units but according to Steve Snell of Gundog Supply and I quote " the radio functions that allows the dog collars to communicate with the hand held will be deactivated when used outside the US https://www.gundogsupply.com/astro-a...anada-use.html

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Plus even if they were deactivated its an electronic easy to make it think you are in the usa. It would be no different then getting the American Netflix here in Canada.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by fishfood

Plus even if they were deactivated its an electronic easy to make it think you are in the usa. It would be no different then getting the American Netflix here in Canada.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

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Please explain how just in case. happens and I'm electronic technologically challenged. LOL

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Originally Posted by sidelock

Please explain how just in case. happens and I'm electronic technologically challenged. LOL

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You have to change your VPN network .

I'm not that tec either but Google knows how it's done also YouTube will show you step by step instructions.
I cant even remember how to get to the real dark web out there. Like the old crossroads totally unstoppable only ever been on the dark web half dozen times lol.


Ps to the OP good luck finding an e collar
This debate has come up a few times over the years and people seem to be always using some products from the USA.


Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by fishfood

You have to change your VPN network .

I'm not that tec either but Google knows how it's done also YouTube will show you step by step instructions.
I cant even remember how to get to the real dark web out there. Like the old crossroads totally unstoppable only ever been on the dark web half dozen times lol.


Ps to the OP good luck finding an e collar
This debate has come up a few times over the years and people seem to be always using some products from the USA.


Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

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Really. What about the GPS system, that is used to figure out were your dog is.

The unit knows were it is because it receives signals from GPS Satellites, not your internet, or Cellular service.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Really. What about the GPS system, that is used to figure out were your dog is.

The unit knows were it is because it receives signals from GPS Satellites, not your internet, or Cellular service.

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That was for the American Netflix lol.


You dont think there are blockers or it cant be changed to work?? I will say if its satelite, computer what ever the case is . I'm pretty sure it can be changed around an tampered with. I only stated it because he said its supposed to be deactivated. Even if it was deactivated does not mean it could never work here in Canada. Just because its satelite doesn't mean it cant be changed to work.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by fishfood

That was for the American Netflix lol.


You dont think there are blockers or it cant be changed to work?? I will say if its satelite, computer what ever the case is . I'm pretty sure it can be changed around an tampered with. I only stated it because he said its supposed to be deactivated. Even if it was deactivated does not mean it could never work here in Canada. Just because its satelite doesn't mean it cant be changed to work.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

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Sure go ahead and block the GPS receiver. See how well that works.

As for units being Disabled. It's done during a software update. In the US the collar works, cross into Canada and ( thanks to GPS) the unit can be programmed to not work.

For example many street legal HIGH performance/Super cars will change the software in the EMC system when you drive them onto or off of race tracks around the world. It's all done via GPS.

If you have one, you know firsthand that they work and work well.
If you don't have one, you read scare tactics online and repeat, and the nonsense continues.

I agree 100%

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Originally Posted by Mount Sweetness

If you have one, you know firsthand that they work and work well.
If you don't have one, you read scare tactics online and repeat, and the nonsense continues.

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