Why Fire Dept's at Medical Calls.

This question was asked on a thread here a while ago.
Well let me tell you what happened today.

I was at a doctors appointment today at Grandview Medical Centre, This Clinic has I believe 14 or 15 doctors plus registered nurses and nurse practitioners there during working hours.
While I was waiting, a very large man at the other end of the waiting room was in obvious distress to the point of him slumping to the floor, a doctor and a nurse came out to see him and within minutes the fire dept. arrived, [ having already been called] they proceeded to stabilize the man , administering oxygen and then the paramedics. ambulance crew arrived and took over with the firefighters assisting.
It took all 6 firefighters and two paramedics to lift this large man onto the gurney and off to the hospital they went

So here we are , a Medical Clinic with all those doctors and nurses there, who do they call? "Emergency Services " which is the fire, ambulance and police depts.
All full time firefighters in Ontario are fully trained and certified in first aid, cardio pulmonary resuscitation and must requalify every 3 years, and take training on the job while working.

So there you go , even doctors and nurses rely on them when required.
Been there , done that for 30 years.

Something to think about when you come upon an accident scene or when yo see firefighters at a house where there is no apparent fire, they are there trying to save a life.

Yep, n there is a peeing match going on now in Windsor Ontario about what u just described, I say let them do their job they r trained for, if it cost more, so be it, lets save a life, some folk think the pay is to high, well, how bout let them folk go to a job without warning, just a ph call, go now, with unknown outcome for them or the person/people in need of help, don't know if they or the people will live or die trying to save a life.....

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Originally Posted by bdog

Yep, n there is a peeing match going on now in Windsor Ontario about what u just described, I say let them do their job they r trained for, if it cost more, so be it, lets save a life, some folk think the pay is to high, well, how bout let them folk go to a job without warning, just a ph call, go now, with unknown outcome for them or the person/people in need of help, don't know if they or the people will live or die trying to save a life.....

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The Windsor folks need a reality check. MHO staff can be 20-30 minutes away from a call and Police even farther. Fire units can be on scene in minutes with enough training and equipment to keep someone from "spiraling the drain" until advanced medical units can be there. People who complain have no idea what they're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

Firefighters should be paid BIG BIG BIG....Cuz they sure aren't going home after every shift happy.
They witness a lot of very sad things.

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Rule #1 A child is NEVER DEAD...at all time the victim is to be treated as if they are alive and you are providing medical care.

Carried a doll( size of a seven or eight year old child) up the side of a mountain in a large backpack, so the search and rescue EMTs had something to put on a stretcher when they came down. All the bear left was one bloody shoe and piece of a foot. They found the victim because they could hear the sound of the Grizzly feeding and breaking bones in it's jaws.

See rule #1...

Being a Volunteer Firefighter myself, I can tell you that we get there before the ambulance on most calls.
On many occasions I have left my grocery cart in the aisle (Only to return to it being in the same spot 2 hours later!), left a 20$ bill on a restaurant table when it only cost 7$ and even left my daughter's b-day party to respond to a call.

When people ask why, I tell them that one day it will be them or their kids that need help ASAP and that they will be thankful we are willing to leave our regular routine to be there.

Fortunately Paramedics work hand in hand with us over here, and we have a lot of respect for each others services.

So my answer to 'why FD at medical calls?' : because we can be there faster, with a lot of equipment (including a Defib) and trained first responders.

Not to mention clearing the path, holding and fetching gear and directing traffic. Our fire dept crews are all local guys, some of our relief paramedics come from 100km down the road,
Few years ago a friends house burnt. The first fire crew ( volunteers) on scene went in and grabbed his gun safe, dragged it clear. The rest of the house was totalled....

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

The Windsor folks need a reality check. MHO staff can be 20-30 minutes away from a call and Police even farther. Fire units can be on scene in minutes with enough training and equipment to keep someone from "spiraling the drain" until advanced medical units can be there. People who complain have no idea what they're talking about.

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I sure don't get where ur comin from or goin with this, "Windsor folks need a reality check" if anybody needs a check up i think u should be making an appointment

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Originally Posted by 3Wheelerdude

Being a Volunteer Firefighter myself, I can tell you that we get there before the ambulance on most calls.
On many occasions I have left my grocery cart in the aisle (Only to return to it being in the same spot 2 hours later!), left a 20$ bill on a restaurant table when it only cost 7$ and even left my daughter's b-day party to respond to a call.

When people ask why, I tell them that one day it will be them or their kids that need help ASAP and that they will be thankful we are willing to leave our regular routine to be there.

Fortunately Paramedics work hand in hand with us over here, and we have a lot of respect for each others services.

So my answer to 'why FD at medical calls?' : because we can be there faster, with a lot of equipment (including a Defib) and trained first responders.

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:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: 3Wheelerdude;, I have a lot of respect for you " Volunteer Fire Fighters " keep up the good work , stay safe.
May you have a peaceful ,quiet, Christmas with your family.

Yes fire fighters can & do play a big part in first response to medical calls.
My big pet peeve is the use of the term "volunteer firefighter".
By using this term most of the public actually believe they are actually volunteering their time where in most cases they get paid for their services.
Very few "volunteer fire services in Ontario" are actually volunteers but actually part-time employees.
Rates of pay vary service to service with some per call/training night to a percentage of the pay budget based on how often the individual participates.
This I have no problem with but lets call a spade a spade.
Yes they provide a vital service & leave their families at inopportune times, but not as unpaid volunteers.
Yes they have my respect but I've meet some who play on the term "volunteer" and won't admit they are payed for their services unless confronted by someone who has the actual facts.

I was/am considering seeing if I can get on one of the local volunteer forces that are(were) hiring.

Your right Woodsman in that it's more part time, than volunteer. Certainly can't speak for all municipalities just the one I'm looking at.

$20/hour while answering the call.
Whether thats attending a car accident for an hour and pulling a mangled child from a wreck and receiving $20.00
Whether thats rushing to someone's home for a heart attack
Whether thats possibly being involved in some rescue operation as with anglers on thin ice
Or
dealing with an inferno.

$20/hour for risking their lives, pulling mangled bodies from wrecks to save lives or just plain old run of the mill CPR for a heart attack victim makes them more volunteer than anything else imo because it certainly isn't done for the $, benefits or any other consideration other than to "volunteer" their time to help. Especially in small communities that don't have the budgets for full timers who are amply compensated for the risk, cost (ptsd), and other they take on.

Think about that.
$20/hour while active, answering a call whatever it may be. Whether thats bread and butter CPR for a heart attack at someones home, or extracting a mangled dead child from a car.

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Originally Posted by Woodsman

Yes fire fighters can & do play a big part in first response to medical calls.
My big pet peeve is the use of the term "volunteer firefighter".
By using this term most of the public actually believe they are actually volunteering their time where in most cases they get paid for their services.
Very few "volunteer fire services in Ontario" are actually volunteers but actually part-time employees.
Rates of pay vary service to service with some per call/training night to a percentage of the pay budget based on how often the individual participates.
This I have no problem with but lets call a spade a spade.
Yes they provide a vital service & leave their families at inopportune times, but not as unpaid volunteers.
Yes they have my respect but I've meet some who play on the term "volunteer" and won't admit they are payed for their services unless confronted by someone who has the actual facts.

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The volunteer firemen in the City of Kawartha Lakes are unionized at over$ 24/ hr.

"2017 Volunteer Firefighter Wages: Suppression/ Training
Basic (new hire)$19.45 /$19.45
Advanced (as recommended) $21.89/ $21.89
Officers $24.34 /$21.89

http://www.city.kawarthalakes.on.ca/...r-firefighters

The main thing holding me back is
A) wondering if I'm still in shape enough :)
B) While I have the time now to answer calls (where many others don't) I may not in 6 months or a year if/when I decide to rejoin the grind. Don't like the idea of committing to something if I think theres a chance I can't stay to my commitment.

$20 to risk your life or deal with a mangled child at a car accident.

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Originally Posted by Woodsman

Yes fire fighters can & do play a big part in first response to medical calls.
My big pet peeve is the use of the term "volunteer firefighter".
By using this term most of the public actually believe they are actually volunteering their time where in most cases they get paid for their services.
Very few "volunteer fire services in Ontario" are actually volunteers but actually part-time employees.
Rates of pay vary service to service with some per call/training night to a percentage of the pay budget based on how often the individual participates.
This I have no problem with but lets call a spade a spade.
Yes they provide a vital service & leave their families at inopportune times, but not as unpaid volunteers.
Yes they have my respect but I've meet some who play on the term "volunteer" and won't admit they are payed for their services unless confronted by someone who has the actual facts.

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We definatly are paid volunteers when we answer to calls. Nothing to hide here.

To me the 'volunteer' remains because we spend just as much time doing unpaid work : 1st of July celebration, Winter Carnival organization, boot drives for multiple causes, fishing tournaments boat inspections, car seat installations, schools fire drills and fire safety sessions....the list goes on of unpaid things we do on our own time.

"Volunteer" also applies to what we do since we still have the choice to answer to calls or not. I know some of my fellow FF that do not answer to specific calls because of past trauma. Or others that stay in their tree stands during the prime hunting season!!!

One more thing.

If people complain about the "Volunteer" part and we are determined to be Part Time or On Call Fire Fighters, then most employers will not allow us to leave our work to attend to calls.

Good luck getting any help if the only guys responding are the ones on night shift.....

I guess we don't have that many fires.

I have paramedics in the family and they are getting hosed while the firefighters are being paid to sleep, literally, it is a contentious thing in our family. The volunteer fire fighters, they are what saves rural Canada, many places where fires happen due to the use of higher risk heating and cooking appliances and they do not get paid to play cards on the off time, they are on call and jump whenever needed, no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Fox

I guess we don't have that many fires.

I have paramedics in the family and they are getting hosed while the firefighters are being paid to sleep, literally, it is a contentious thing in our family. The volunteer fire fighters, they are what saves rural Canada, many places where fires happen due to the use of higher risk heating and cooking appliances and they do not get paid to play cards on the off time, they are on call and jump whenever needed, no matter what.

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Curious , how are they being "hosed " ?

Even if they are only "part time" paying those guys only $20/hr is insulting. When called into service I wouldn't mind if they paid them $100/hr. Many government paper pushers make double that.

I understand both sides to fire department be called out on 911 calls.coming from retirement home back ground. Every time ems was called to transport a person to hospital the fire department shows up lights and sirens going. There should be two types of calls to 911.it truly scares the heck out of the rest of the residents when thy show up at 3 am for a senior needing transfer. We talked with all departments about this.vut were told that's just the way it is...why waste value able resources when thy are not needed.

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Originally Posted by dutchhunter

I understand both sides to fire department be called out on 911 calls.coming from retirement home back ground. Every time ems was called to transport a person to hospital the fire department shows up lights and sirens going. There should be two types of calls to 911.it truly scares the heck out of the rest of the residents when thy show up at 3 am for a senior needing transfer. We talked with all departments about this.vut were told that's just the way it is...why waste value able resources when thy are not needed.

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This has to do with how the call is made. Fire responds for trouble breathing, chest pains, unconscious, things deemed life threatening. So it all depends how the person's condition is described when the call is received.

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Originally Posted by dutchhunter

I understand both sides to fire department be called out on 911 calls.coming from retirement home back ground. Every time ems was called to transport a person to hospital the fire department shows up lights and sirens going. There should be two types of calls to 911.it truly scares the heck out of the rest of the residents when thy show up at 3 am for a senior needing transfer. We talked with all departments about this.vut were told that's just the way it is...why waste value able resources when thy are not needed.

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The Dispatcher decides who is called to respond. For us it depends on who works at the dispatch that day. But I totally agree that sometimes we are sent to calls that dont necessitate FD.
I guess its a matter of training the dispatchers uniformly.

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Originally Posted by Rustic

Curious , how are they being "hosed " ?

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Compare pay vs work between the two, the firefighters union is strong and the paramedic union is not, the paramedics get paid a fraction of what the fire fighters do and they are much busier on an identical shift. Fire fighters also get paid for overnight on call shifts no matter if there is work to be done or not, this sort of thing does not happen for a paramedic, they are busy and not compensated the same way as the fire fighters are.

I have a couple friends that are paramedics and hunt with both FF and PM from SW ONT.

Not sure why anyone should feel PMs are getting hosed. I'm going to try and tread carefully because all to often what's typed ( in the absence of voice inflection, facial expression, etc) is misunderstood or twisted.

My understanding is that all Depts are deemed essential services and as such contract disputes are handled through arbitration. It's good in so much as it avoids labour unrest and strikes. It's bad in that arbitrators can't employ judgement, it's a black or white thing. In short arbitrators don't ( or can't) weigh the "buyers" ability to pay. Just google arbitration in Ontario for an idea of some of the problems its created.

Then subsequent to that most forces are pegged to I believe the OPP. It's one of the reasons much was made about the obscene 8% raise they got last time around. Others forces, including fire and paramedics will be "pegged" to that (with what ever adjustments) scale. So the OPPs 13% (over 2011-18??) will have domino effects everywhere.

All to often this seems to turn into some kind Ping match. The question should never be are
OPP constables worth 90k and all the benefits
FFs worth (X.XX plus all benefits)
Teachers worth ( X.XX all benefits)
Paramedics worth (X.XX plus benefits)

The question, as with any "market" is.
What can be afforded with various things be it sick time, banked sick time, hours, etc etc.
Guy I hunt with gets 9 weeks vacation plus I think FFs only work about 160 weeks of the year (or there about not let split bones).

Point being for illustrative purposes.
Would a Teacher "here" or FF "here" make the same gross salary and benefits

In Mexico?
No, obviously not. The job, the risk, the dealing with crap most others never have to deal with is still the same.....So why would the same job pay a fraction of what it does here?

if anyone is getting hosed its tax payers. Specifically the middle class.
Those people who earn $70,000 as a family, duo income, the statistical middle. Don't have great benefits or Pensions and don't have job security. Tens and tens and tens of thousands of them who have and are losing jobs.

And before anyone says it.
My Father was a FF, gave his life in the line. (job related cancer)

Curious Fox.
How many paramedics die of a handful of job related cancers?
Fall through roofs and break bones?
Suck in lungfuls of ammonia ( back in the day he was known as a smoke eater)
and on
and on
and on

The issue for most people isn't are they well paid or deserve it. Pretty sure everybody agrees FF should be well paid. It's the business model that is questioned. Paying guys to sleep is hard to understand. I know a couple FF and they both have second careers. One is an electrician. How many people gave enough time off to have another business on the side? Again this isn't about should they be paid well or are they brave and necessary.

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Originally Posted by JBen

Curious Fox.
How many paramedics die of a handful of job related cancers?
Fall through roofs and break bones?
Suck in lungfuls of ammonia ( back in the day he was known as a smoke eater)
and on
and on
and on

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Read up on PTSD and paramedics, look at the number that commit suicide due to the crap that they see, way more than military personal, it is very sad and PTSD in the medical field is very close to me.

They are also Northern Ontario paramedics, more calls, further to go, less people to cover the area, like I said, the union strength is not the same. You cannot compare all paramedics in Ontario as they do not all fall into the same groups, for instance, in a Northern Ontario city vs 40min outside of that city, same wage but significantly less calls on the same time scale with much more scheduled system rather than essentially forced overtime (due to calls) that occur within the city.

It is not the fault of the fire fighters at all, they deserve what they get but the paramedics are not being recognized and compensated as such. Do you know that it was just this past year that they finally recognized PTSD as a workplace issue for paramedics, they deal with more and see more than police and military but it was not recognized until this year.

As far as the FD model, I believe most cities around here have found a way around the expensive salaries. (Keep in mind most cities around here are between 10k and 60k population.)

- They hire only enough full times to bring the trucks to the call. So lets say station A as a Rescue and a Pumper, then only 2 FF would be paid to sleep at the station. The rest of the FF are 'volunteers' and would respond directly at the address paged.
This limits the amount paid in salary and so far the response time and amount of FF available has been great.

Paramedics are with CUPE right ? Plus have their own association ?
Please explain your reference to "seeing more ,and dealing with more" then Police or Military .

Are you suggesting FFs don't have to live with nightmares? I always knew when my dad had a bad shift. If he didn't stumble into the house in a drunken stupor, I found him passed out in the car in front of the house. Sometimes he would open up and talk about a child's skin flowing through his fingers like hot wax. Or the times they would use spoons to pick up the prices from jumpers, the car wrecks that.......floaters whose bloated bodies would fall apart at the touch..

FFers are usually/often the first on scene due to training, equipment, other.
Think about that.

those injuries are just a few he came home with, including the day he rushed into a building without breathing apparatus and suck in lungful a of ammonia (he'd probably be disciplined for that today, lol) but they all happened and more, like the time he was on the back of the truck, and thrown into a wall crushing his hip, and more. Granted that was back in the day, when equipment wasn't what it is today, protocols weren't what they are today. That doesn't lessen the risk much.
i should dig out some old pictures.


The grass is always yellower Fox.
My father died when I was 20. I still remember a big portion of the TFD turning out. That said, I personally know more guys in my industry that died in their 40s from heart attacks and stress. And I know a ton of FFs and cops. It's part of the family and "extended" family.... Maybe PM are getting the short end, don't know. Do know you can't compare what they do to what FF do. Heck, let's compare a PM to some guy in Afghanistan this x-mas....


anything, be it a house, be it a car/boat, be it a person in a field. Is only "worth" what the "buyer" can afford. Wouldn't it be great if every cop, FF, PM could start at 150k or 200k. Their jobs........I'd be all over that.

Can "we" afford it?
*******
/looks at the middle class. The tax base, the most important part. How's it's been shrinking for decades, and for the last 8 years has been getting

crushed.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Compare pay vs work between the two, the firefighters union is strong and the paramedic union is not, the paramedics get paid a fraction of what the fire fighters do and they are much busier on an identical shift. Fire fighters also get paid for overnight on call shifts no matter if there is work to be done or not, this sort of thing does not happen for a paramedic, they are busy and not compensated the same way as the fire fighters are.

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Fox! The paramedics in your family are obviously grown adults, if they don't like the remuneration that they are getting, they have the option of "quitting " and let someone else have the job who will appreciate it.
There is no need for you to speak up for them on this forum , and we shouldn't be constantly be listening to your whining!
I didn't start this thread to have you or anyone start whining about pay inequities between the different emergency services.
If you cannot stick with the original intent of the thread, stay out of it, most of us here are tired of guys like you derailing threads for your own agenda

You should stick with raising rabbits , and have you family paramedics take up their grievance about pay issues with whomever they work for.

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Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

I remember years ago there was a FF who lost his life going down a "tunnel" in the Grand River to get a young boy. It happened in the dam wall, I believe. The tunnel is in the dam wall, the kids would go zipping down that tunnel. A tree was blocking the exit.
Sorry if I am not using the correct terms or the exact details correctly but I do remember crying because when they hauled the lifeless FF up, his arms were wrapped around somebodys dead child.
There is a monument there now and the "tunnel" was fixed so that kids can't access it anymore.

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The tunnel, is called a sluice:[COLOR=#3B3E41]a[COLOR=#3B3E41][COLOR=#3B3E41]:[COLOR=#3B3E41] a stream flowing through a floodgate[COLOR=#3B3E41]b : a channel to drain or carry off surplus water

Correction , it wasn't a FF , it was a Police Officer , Const DAVID Nicholson , a police diver.
This happened when I was on my days off, at that same incident , we almost lost a firefighter as well, the guys on the lifeline were very fast fortunately at pulling him out when he jerked his life/signal rope that he was in trouble as he felt himself being pulled into the sluiceway.
Spent many hours there watching this whole incident,

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Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

Yes Jaycee...wasn't the water moving too fast and the current too strong to be able to pull the firefighter who lost his life back up and he was tangled in the tree, holding the boy?
That was soooo sad:(:(:(
The entire city cried.

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I edited my post as you were typing , It was a Police Officer that lost his life , the current in the sluiceway was so strong that the harness on cost Nicholson's safety vest actually broke, his safety line held , but the men could not pull him up against the force of the water.
His safety line was then attached to the fire depts, aerial ladder to try and hoist him out , the rope held but his harness failed , sadly , unfortunately.
This should not have happened , the boy had already been under water , some say for up to 30 to 40 minutes, it should have gone down as a body recovery and not a rescue.
A lot of lessons were learned at this very unfortunate incident.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

I edited my post as you were typing , It was a Police Officer that lost his life , the current in the sluiceway was so strong that the harness on cost Nicholson's safety vest actually broke, his safety line held , but the men could not pull him up against the force of the water.
His safety line was then attached to the fire depts, aerial ladder to try and hoist him out , the rope held but his harness failed , sadly , unfortunately.
This should not have happened , the boy had already been under water , some say for up to 30 to 40 minutes, it should have gone down as a body recovery and not a rescue.
A lot of lessons were learned at this very unfortunate incident.

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I remember that event. There was If I remember the news correctly something of a big issue about him being told he had to go, even though there was no safety/backup diver, and that there was as you say no chance of a "rescue"?

Maybe this will put at least a couple things into perspective. Don't take it as gospel, that's not the aim/goal. It might though surprise some.

Since inception around 1850. 250 TFD men have lost their lives. TPS 40

Times are different, there's fewer fires and really FFers are these days just glorified medical responders? While the mean streets of Toronto have gotten so much more dangerous?

TPS fatalities since 2000: Two
TFd fatalities since 2000: I stopped counting after 60

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/honour_roll/

http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/co...0071d60f89RCRD


It doesn't matter what field your in. There's "yellow" grass. Trying to compare 1 field against another is an effort in futility.
Different realities, different responsibilities. I've never understood how anyone can say well they get X so I should get X+ or X-. Maybe PMs are getting shafted and aren't compd for their yellow grass. Great lets give them all another 20k. Then someone else is going feel like they are short changed because like paramedics they to...have to deal with .

what about nurses in ERs or burn units who have to somehow cope with that. See the families as they break down looking at broken or dead children.
and on
and on
and on

might explain a few things "cough", but this isn't about that

Now that this has pardon the word play died down.
A couple pics for Jaycee and for the FFers that PMd me. Shame I felt I had to link the honour rolls to put some things into perspective.

By gone era's
One is a pic of my father in his kit, "safety equipment". One is a pic of something I've kept with me for 30+ years. Something my father got and received shortly before his death. Back in the day they were positioned all over city streets, and when pulled a bell would ring. These days, it rings his badge number.

http://jbenphotography.ca/img/s4/v9/p2151131836-4.jpg

Right corner of the garden
http://jbenphotography.ca/img/s10/v98/p2151131830-5.jpg

Tonight and tomorrow, there are going to be all kinds of families celebrating Christmas with their families.
There are also going to be all kinds of dads ( and moms these days) reporting to their halls and precincts ( No offence to the paramedics out there) for their shifts and answering the call. Whose families will be waiting for them to get home so they to can open presents, spend Christmas day together. Hopefully they all go home after their shift.

Money, corporate ladders, or time off, or getting paid to sleep counts for shyte in this life.

Great pictures, that's an old one. I see some leather helmets there.

If my memory is correct the pic of the crew was taken at the Exhibition grounds hall, but I question that due the soot on their faces. That posting was in someways considered a bit of lark. Not bad eh, getting paid to be part of merriment, watch all the scantily clad young women walking by, coming into the station hall. Guys would get posted there during the Ex, then go back to their halls once it shut down.

I was there in the hall, with the crew, the night the Alice Cooper riot broke out. Was driven by one of the guys out of the grounds through the utter chaos, to safety while all the other guys answered the call. They are after all the

first responders.

leather helmets.
Lol yup, I have more pics.My sister kept his hat and badge, I kept the alarm he received that the guys also modified to ring his badge number. Lots of memories of the good the bad and the ugly. But thats all Ive had for 30 years....

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Originally Posted by JBen

http://jbenphotography.ca/img/s4/v9/p2151131836-4.jpg

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John,

Of all the impressive pictures you have posted over the years - this one is the best. Merry Xmas.