Scarcity of Deer ???

I spoke with a fellow I've known for years, he told me that they found a coyote den on a farm back last spring.
They set up a camera close by to keep track of what was going on, they also changed the card weekly, so they would not get repeat pictures.
During the time the camera was set up and until they family moved to another den site, the pictures had shown that the adult coyotes had dragged in 11 , yes that is eleven different fawns to feed their pups.
At eleven fawns, that is "a lot " of deer taken out of the system.

Looks like there will have to be a lot more guys/gals out there hunting/shooting coyotes to help get the deer population back up on it's feet.

Our M.N.R.F will also have to look into this with more foresight/ openmindedness than they have , open up the coyote/wolf hunting in areas they have closed, and also " stop" with all the extra tags that have been available over the years, and also look into possibly shortening the lenght of the deer season .
Myself I see no reason to carry on with an archery season after the December shotgun/muzzle loader hunt, that is my opinion and there is no reason to starts arguements here on this forum about it. Open discussion yes but no arguements.

coyotes have there place but too many is bad news.

The deer population in 92 is in great shape.
If any cuts need to take place they would be best done to the gun hunt. Leave the archery season alone... :)

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Originally Posted by jaycee

I spoke with a fellow I've known for years, he told me that they found a coyote den on a farm back last spring.
They set up a camera close by to keep track of what was going on, they also changed the card weekly, so they would not get repeat pictures.
During the time the camera was set up and until they family moved to another den site, the pictures had shown that the adult coyotes had dragged in 11 , yes that is eleven different fawns to feed their pups.
At eleven fawns, that is "a lot " of deer taken out of the system.

Looks like there will have to be a lot more guys/gals out there hunting/shooting coyotes to help get the deer population back up on it's feet.

Our M.N.R.F will also have to look into this with more foresight/ openmindedness than they have , open up the coyote/wolf hunting in areas they have closed, and also " stop" with all the extra tags that have been available over the years, and also look into possibly shortening the lenght of the deer season .
Myself I see no reason to carry on with an archery season after the December shotgun/muzzle loader hunt, that is my opinion and there is no reason to starts arguements here on this forum about it. Open discussion yes but no arguements.

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Jaycee...that is an insane amount of fawns for one den in one portion of pup rearing season. Wow! How many pups were there and what was the duration in which 11 fawns were taken into the den? (Ask your friend next time you see him, please).
Agree that MNR should look into opening up coyote/wolf/ hybrid bans in wmu's.
I am glad you posted this, while scouting today I noticed a great deal less rabbit tracks and got to thinking about yotes myself.

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Originally Posted by bellerivercrossbowhunter

coyotes have there place but too many is bad news.

The deer population in 92 is in great shape.
If any cuts need to take place they would be best done to the gun hunt. Leave the archery season alone... :)

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Seeing that the gun hunt is only a week to two weeks long,what do you suggest?

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Originally Posted by jaycee

I spoke with a fellow I've known for years, he told me that they found a coyote den on a farm back last spring.
They set up a camera close by to keep track of what was going on, they also changed the card weekly, so they would not get repeat pictures.
During the time the camera was set up and until they family moved to another den site, the pictures had shown that the adult coyotes had dragged in 11 , yes that is eleven different fawns to feed their pups.
At eleven fawns, that is "a lot " of deer taken out of the system.

Looks like there will have to be a lot more guys/gals out there hunting/shooting coyotes to help get the deer population back up on it's feet.

Our M.N.R.F will also have to look into this with more foresight/ openmindedness than they have , open up the coyote/wolf hunting in areas they have closed, and also " stop" with all the extra tags that have been available over the years, and also look into possibly shortening the lenght of the deer season .
Myself I see no reason to carry on with an archery season after the December shotgun/muzzle loader hunt, that is my opinion and there is no reason to starts arguements here on this forum about it. Open discussion yes but no arguements.

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I agree with no extra tags. But I think most deer are taken during the controlled hunts and not many deer taken by archers especially in December. My thought would be to modify the shotgun season.

Just a thought, there's lots of ways to look at it.

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Originally Posted by fieldtrip

I agree with no extra tags. But I think most deer are taken during the controlled hunts and not many deer taken by archers especially in December. My thought would be to modify the shotgun season.

Just a thought, there's lots of ways to look at it.

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How do you "modify" a shotgun season? :confused:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

How do you "modify" a shotgun season? :confused:

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Oh boy....

The deer population is on the rebound here in eastern Ontario and the coyote population somewhat declining a bit. This is based on my field observations in the last few months. The coyotes always trail the deer and do take out the weak and vulnerable. They are no match for the strong and healthy otherwise we would no longer have a deer population. The key factor is snow depth in having the deer remain mobile and agile. Too deep and the coyotes have a feeding frenzy and lots of pups. Mother Nature taking care of her own in a never ending cycle.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

How do you "modify" a shotgun season? :confused:

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Very simple, only 3 days season, no party hunting, no pushing any bushes

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Originally Posted by fieldtrip

I agree with no extra tags. But I think most deer are taken during the controlled hunts and not many deer taken by archers especially in December. My thought would be to modify the shotgun season.

Just a thought, there's lots of ways to look at it.

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Not many taken by archers in Dec. , boy oh boy I can tell you a much different story, how about guys more than a dozen, that take their holidays the last two weeks of Dec. and really hit yarding areas hard !:madman:

In my wmu, the gunners kill the coyotes and I think they help keep their numbers in check, so basically I am thankful for the gunners and do not begrudge them their gun weeks. If the MNR yanks the bans in other wmu's, I can tell ya....it won't be bowhunters culling the yotes.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Not many taken by archers in Dec. , boy oh boy I can tell you a much different story, how about guys more than a dozen, that take their holidays the last two weeks of Dec. and really hit yarding areas hard !:madman:

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You betcha Jaycee!
I know 8 guys who put deer down in December....those guys put their time in, froze their gonads off and got big pay offs!
...however I would like to see the gunners have one of their weeks at the end of december...too chilly for me and my bow LOL ;) JK:)
On the flip side...I know other guys who tagged out gun week meanwhile these archers had to put in a lot more hours as it is more difficult to get a deer bowhunting due to distance etc.
I say leave the archery season alone and leave the gunners alone too.

Here we go with the blame game!!:sad::sad:

i think your friend should send those photos to the MNR

What we need is the MNR to spend some money on good science to get a handle on what and where the numbers actually are. Then based on the sound science make sound management decisions to best manage the population for whatever the goals may be. If that means cuts to whoever and wherever so be it. Most of the observations we as hunters make in the field, while valuable, are anecdotal for the most part. For example in 82a this year I saw more fawns, does and bucks than I have ever seen. Other guys a few concessions away didn't see squat - so who's opinion is valid? Who knows - we need a bunch of field experienced biologists on the ground and in the air to get a proper handle on things. Otherwise we are just guessing.

In some WMUs, I believe that the small game season extends past December, and thus for those wishing to hunt the coyotes, there is plenty of time to do so? Or am I wrong about this? Looks like I need to do some re-reading on those regs again.

I know that around Algonquin that the coyote/wolf season is more or less banned for now.

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Originally Posted by SaginMerusan

In some WMUs, I believe that the small game season extends past December, and thus for those wishing to hunt the coyotes, there is plenty of time to do so? Or am I wrong about this? Looks like I need to do some re-reading on those regs again.

I know that around Algonquin that the coyote/wolf season is more or less banned for now.

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Yotes are year round in some wmu's.
Get a small game tag and hunt yotes year round ;)
I see a new use for your rifle, Sagin ;)

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Originally Posted by fieldtrip

I agree with no extra tags. But I think most deer are taken during the controlled hunts and not many deer taken by archers especially in December. My thought would be to modify the shotgun season.

Just a thought, there's lots of ways to look at it.

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Originally Posted by skull

Very simple, only 3 days season, no party hunting, no pushing any bushes

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ROFLMFAO! Now,that's funny right there. You guys are just kiddin'.....right? :silly: Do either one of you hunt? :whacked:

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Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

I say leave the archery season alone and leave the gunners alone too.

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Originally Posted by jim

Here we go with the blame game!!:sad::sad:

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No kidding a Hunter's worst nightmare ...other hunters trying to restrict our hunting privileges.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Myself I see no reason to carry on with an archery season after the December shotgun/muzzle loader hunt, that is my opinion and there is no reason to starts arguements here on this forum about it. Open discussion yes but no arguements.

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Open discussion;...most of us have 1 tag...what's the difference to the deer population if I fill it in Oct or I fill it in Dec...???

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Open discussion;...what is the difference to the deer population if I have one tag and I fill it in Oct or I fill it in Dec...???

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My point exactly. Why restrict when I shoot my 1 and only deer? Not sure how that makes any sense whether its gun or bow... 1 deer=1 deer no matter how it dies.

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Originally Posted by bellerivercrossbowhunter

coyotes have there place but too many is bad news.

The deer population in 92 is in great shape.
If any cuts need to take place they would be best done to the gun hunt. Leave the archery season alone... :)

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How do you figure a non native species has a place
I'd rather have an extra tag or 2 over feeding a hungry coyote family

Dan

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Originally Posted by Species8472

What we need is the MNR to spend some money on good science to get a handle on what and where the numbers actually are. Then based on the sound science make sound management decisions to best manage the population for whatever the goals may be.

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This is what should be happening for all game species. Its not going to happen, but it should.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Open discussion;...most of us have 1 tag...what's the difference to the deer population if I fill it in Oct or I fill it in Dec...???

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I wonder how these guys would do back in the days of only cutting a few tracks in a week let alone only shooting 2 deer in a season.

I think people are way out to lunch, they blame the other guy for everything.

No pushed in a controlled hunt, then do we ban pushes for acrhery? No party hunting of any kind? What about crossbows, they are too easy to use, we should go back to traditional archery only but then we would have too many wounded deer, so 50 cal rifles only for deer.

It makes me shake my head every time.

We have very good deer populations in SW Ontario, Central and Eastern Ontario were too high for the carrying capacity for a long time and people started to shoot them as pests, hence why there were 5 extra tags in Eastern Ontario. The fact that the MNR is a couple years behind in adjusting the antlerless tag allocation makes more of a difference then 1 guy shooting 1 deer with 1 firearm (bow included).

If you want the population to "come back" stop shooting does and stop shooting more than 1, if you use a rifle, shotgun, bow, whatever.

If 18 guys go out for 1 week and shoot 18 deer you still have less pressure in the woods and less animals killed then if you have 10 bow hunters hunting all season and shooting 2 deer each.

It is unfortunate but these discussions always seem to end up following the same path. Populations and opportunities drop and everyone would like to see something done as long as it does not impact their hunt. I don't agree with everything the MNR does but trying to make us all happy while dealing with funding cuts etc must be extremely exasperating. There really are no easy answers.

With the amount of snow we already have and the amount predicted, every deer hunter should be out there this winter to get a few coyotes. Otherwise our deer population will be affected. (I can speak for WMU65)

We were out there Coyote hunting on Dec 26th and will be every weekend until March.

Its a bit far fetched, but if the MNR would grant an extra deer tag to every hunter who brings in 10 Yotes, predator control might be more effective.

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Originally Posted by Species8472

What we need is the MNR to spend some money on good science to get a handle on what and where the numbers actually are. Then based on the sound science make sound management decisions to best manage the population for whatever the goals may be. If that means cuts to whoever and wherever so be it. Most of the observations we as hunters make in the field, while valuable, are anecdotal for the most part. For example in 82a this year I saw more fawns, does and bucks than I have ever seen. Other guys a few concessions away didn't see squat - so who's opinion is valid? Who knows - we need a bunch of field experienced biologists on the ground and in the air to get a proper handle on things. Otherwise we are just guessing.

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I agree. Right now decisions are made using second hand info. The MNR need to get their boots dirty.

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Originally Posted by myot

How do you figure a non native species has a place
I'd rather have an extra tag or 2 over feeding a hungry coyote family

Dan

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Actually Coyotes are not 100% non-native... :)
What is the difference between a wolf and a coyote in Ontario?

Prior to the settlement of Ontario by Europeans, Ontario was home to grey wolves in the north, and eastern wolves in the south. However, eastern wolves struggled to survive heavy persecution and habitat loss associated with human settlement. Western coyotes, a species that fared much better in the disturbed landscape and consequently migrated eastward across Canada, bred with what remained of the eastern wolf population in southern Ontario and Quebec. Coyotes in eastern Canada are now called ‘eastern coyotes’ because they have a mixture of western coyote, wolf genes and even dog genes. This helps explain why eastern coyotes (a.k.a. “coywolves”,”brush wolves”, “Tweed wolves”) are larger than western coyotes, and why they are often confused with wolves.
Eastern wolves and eastern coyotes are physically indistinguishable – you can’t tell them apart without a genetic test. To conserve eastern wolves in and around Algonquin Provincial Park, it was necessary to enforce a hunting and trapping ban for both eastern wolves and eastern coyotes. Adding to the confusion is the fact that eastern coyotes and eastern wolves sometimes interbreed, particularly in areas where eastern wolves are harvest (sadly, this happens across much of their range). Given what we know about the eastern wolf’s low odds of surviving outside of areas protected from hunting, trapping and vehicle traffic, the vast majority of canids in the southern parts of our province are eastern coyotes.
Eastern coyotes are much better adapted to living in rural and urban areas, and there are even well-documented populations in Toronto and other heavily populated cities in southern Ontario. Typically, eastern coyotes consume a wide variety of food, including small mammals, insects, and berries. However, like wolves, coyotes depredate on livestock from time to time. Livestock depredation can be mitigated using a variety of non-invasive techniques. Finding the right combination of actions is case-specific – if you are a farmer, please click [COLOR=#885154]here for resources on coexisting with wolves and eastern coyotes. To learn more about eastern coyotes, please visit [COLOR=#885154]Coyote Watch Canada and [COLOR=#885154]Dr. Way’s Eastern Coyote Research.

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Originally Posted by 3Wheelerdude

Its a bit far fetched, but if the MNR would grant an extra deer tag to every hunter who brings in 10 Yotes, predator control might be more effective.

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It doesn't take much to get guys out Yote Hunting...for each confirmed kill, a local Gun shop offers a raffel/draw ticket on a new Rifle . Lots of guys enter and lots of yotes get killed. Everyones a winner !!

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Originally Posted by delmer

I agree. Right now decisions are made using second hand info. The MNR need to get their boots dirty.

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Ok...I've got one tag.. 34 yrs trad..if that's what you call it..archery under my belt. A crappy non ethical hunter is just that and equipment is not the issue a never was. Enough of that crap... then rifle guys nearby work just as hard as I do to fill a tag. I call shenanigans on 11 fawns...the numbers don't work out unless there is some crazy density going on there. Yah..yotes sure can be a pain in the rear end but winter ice and snow pack and starvation is far more of an issue for our herd. That's right our...archery xbow compound trad..rifle shotgun muzzleoader..... stop being divisive. Mnrf biggest error this past decade imho was multi tags...when we got hit with two crap winters right after the additional seals thing in eastern Ontario our deer count was way down.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

During the time the camera was set up and until they family moved to another den site, the pictures had shown that the adult coyotes had dragged in 11 , yes that is eleven different fawns to feed their pups.
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11 fawns!!! Hum...... :confused::confused::confused:

Attachment 34212Fox are taking many fawns also. I ran after the fox to get this shot.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

I spoke with a fellow I've known for years, he told me that they found a coyote den on a farm back last spring.
They set up a camera close by to keep track of what was going on, they also changed the card weekly, so they would not get repeat pictures.
During the time the camera was set up and until they family moved to another den site, the pictures had shown that the adult coyotes had dragged in 11 , yes that is eleven different fawns to feed their pups.
At eleven fawns, that is "a lot " of deer taken out of the system.

Looks like there will have to be a lot more guys/gals out there hunting/shooting coyotes to help get the deer population back up on it's feet.

Our M.N.R.F will also have to look into this with more foresight/ openmindedness than they have , open up the coyote/wolf hunting in areas they have closed, and also " stop" with all the extra tags that have been available over the years, and also look into possibly shortening the lenght of the deer season .
Myself I see no reason to carry on with an archery season after the December shotgun/muzzle loader hunt, that is my opinion and there is no reason to starts arguements here on this forum about it. Open discussion yes but no arguements.

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11 fawns seem like a lot but maybe this area holds a ton of deer?
I got to ask.....did your buddies notice less deer while hunting this year? or was just this an average deer hunting season for them? They notice 11 less fawns (camera pics this year) but maybe this is the norm and the deer herd in the area is still the same?
Basically I guess what I am asking is, did they notice less deer this year or same amount, what impact if any have those coyotes on the herd in the area-did they notice a difference in deer numbers-did their own deer kills average previous years (fill their tags)? I guess I got lots of questions...oh well.. :)

I'm a pretty simple guy.

All I know is that every deer those coyotes (invasive non native) is one less that has the potential to make it to next fall for us. If it's a mature doe there a multiplier factor there also when fawn are factored in. Those lost animals represent lost sustenance for us and lost revenues for the gov't.

Our forefathers and pioneers/farmers knew this too well because their lives depended on it. Large predators were heavily managed with bounties, poison etc.
Nowadays our lives do not depend on it and this is why our foot has come off the gas pedal with predator control.
There are more people now (sportsman & native) that still want their deer every year.
Sharing a large part of the resource with invasive scavengers is beginning to rear it's ugly head.

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Originally Posted by SK33T3R

Those lost animals represent lost sustenance for us and lost revenues for the gov't.

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Since we pay in advance for tags....the gov't really isn't out anything when hunters don't fill the tags...just saying :)

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Originally Posted by SK33T3R

Nowadays our lives do not depend on it and this is why our foot has come off the gas pedal with predator control.

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With fewer hunters and low 'success' rates (I think I read 30%) it does make one wonder if the MNR turns a blind eye towards predator control as they still need a method of control to keep deer numbers down. Those MWU's with extra tags are areas where they need to cull a greater number of deer and if hunters can't do it...then they have to rely on nature.

How many people have stopped trying to hunt Moose Mike? I imagine, the MNR (SPA) has lost a small chunk of coin due to decreased opportunity. However for me anyways, money while important ( see the hit to Northern Ontario following the Spring bear cancellation).

So many topics, so many common underlying themes. Whether it's dwindling Moose numbers here, Manitoba, Michigan, elsewhere. Whether it's dwindling Caribou here, in Quebec (hunts cancelled) and elsewhere.

Saw this yesterday. Fairly interesting read.
"Double Standard on Wolf hunting".
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/tra...408925965.html

Who knows how much of a dent Coyotes are really making. What we do know is that many species and not just Whitetails, have or are declining. As it pertains to South and Central Ontario where Yotes are exploding, habitat loss is exploding, some species seem to be disappearing, human encroachment is exploding and not just Urban Sprawl, in cottage country to.

One wonders why the MNR seems to be more interested in protecting predators, than many other species.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

I spoke with a fellow I've known for years, he told me that they found a coyote den on a farm back last spring.
They set up a camera close by to keep track of what was going on, they also changed the card weekly, so they would not get repeat pictures.
During the time the camera was set up and until they family moved to another den site, the pictures had shown that the adult coyotes had dragged in 11 , yes that is eleven different fawns to feed their pups.
At eleven fawns, that is "a lot " of deer taken out of the system.

Looks like there will have to be a lot more guys/gals out there hunting/shooting coyotes to help get the deer population back up on it's feet.

Our M.N.R.F will also have to look into this with more foresight/ openmindedness than they have , open up the coyote/wolf hunting in areas they have closed, and also " stop" with all the extra tags that have been available over the years, and also look into possibly shortening the lenght of the deer season .
Myself I see no reason to carry on with an archery season after the December shotgun/muzzle loader hunt, that is my opinion and there is no reason to starts arguements here on this forum about it. Open discussion yes but no arguements.

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Completely agree... a hunting buddy of mine and I are planning to get out to wack some coyotes shortly.

HERE'S FROM THE LINK FROM JBEN LIKE I SAID "I'm pretty simple" this is exactly what I mean
The double standard on wolf hunting

Wildlife management is a difficult issue, but the convoluted system must go

Of all the animal species that are hunted in Manitoba, none divides the public quite like the wolf.
Most people can easily wrap their heads around hunting for species such as whitetail deer or Canada goose, whose meat is eaten. However, many people have a harder time understanding why our province, or any other, allows hunting for wolves, whose meat is more-or-less inedible, unless you’re talking about the most basic, survive-while-lost-in-the-bush type of situation.

Wolf hunting and trapping does occur here in Manitoba, and has for a long time, just as it has in many other parts of North America and across the world. In fact, some provinces and states go a step further and actively cull populations of wolves and other predators. The furthest we’ve gone in Manitoba recently is to offer financial incentives to trappers to take more wolves off the landscape.
For those who ask why, consider this: We humans have an interesting relationship with our food, especially when it comes to competing for that food with other sentient creatures. There still exists a basic biological competition on earth for food resources, but it’s something many people living in First-World, urban conditions can often forget. That competition, however, remains a very real struggle for millions of people across the globe, including here in Canada.
At a recent meeting of the Beverly-Qamanirjuaq Caribou Management Board, some of the Dene and Inuit hunters and trappers on the board recounted tales of shooting 20 to 25 wolves in one morning, just to keep them off the dwindling caribou herds. In British Columbia, the government recently committed to increased predator control to help restore moose populations, citing a report that 45 per cent of B.C.’s moose are killed by predators such as wolves, bears and cougars, while only 18 per cent are killed by human hunters.
Wolves, of course, have a well-established place in the food chain, and are an iconic species of Canadian wildlife that should be cherished and their populations sustained. They enjoy an elevated position in the belief systems of many Indigenous cultures here in Canada and they have a special mystique that is recognized worldwide. But does that mean we should never hunt, trap or otherwise kill them?
How many Manitobans, for example, would think twice about a farmer shooting a wolf to protect his chickens or livestock?
A 2007 survey of Americans, conducted by Virginia-based Responsive Management, looked at public support for hunting "by motivation," including whether respondents supported hunting for various reasons such as harvesting meat, protecting humans from harm and animal population control.
The survey found that 71 per cent of Americans — whether they themselves hunted or not — supported the idea of allowing hunting "to protect property," while 81 per cent said they supported hunting "for wildlife management," and 83 per cent "for animal population control."
In the often fierce world of public opinion, that is substantial support. The numbers suggest that North American society generally accepts the notion of protecting our own food sources (chickens, cows, etc.) from predators, and that hunting is a publicly acceptable way of managing wildlife.
Here in Manitoba, that same support exists, because it plays out in the form of publicly funded provincial programs such as the problem predator removal program, and the wildlife damage compensation program for livestock predation. Livestock producers whose animals have been attacked by bears, cougars, wolves or coyotes can apply to the Manitoba Agricultural Services Corporation for compensation. Those same producers may also contact a licensed trapper "for assistance in dealing with the problem predator," according to the terms of Manitoba Sustainable Development’s problem predator removal program.
Both these programs are perfectly legitimate and ultimately necessary, in my opinion. As people who live in rural areas never forgot, wolves can be dangerous things that, at the very least, have the capacity to injure or kill wildlife, domestic animals and even humans. And when it comes to the predator successfully killing its prey, we’re willing to acknowledge the damage with compensation to farmers, and then take preventative measures to mitigate future kills.
So why don’t we, as a society, think the same way about protecting deer, moose, caribou, grouse and other wildlife from these same predators? Those wild animals are just as much "food" as cows and chickens, yet we don’t seem quite as willing to take the same measures to protect wild food sources.
No one is compensated in Manitoba when a wolf kills a moose or a deer, and people who want to hunt and trap wolves are met with an unnecessarily complicated licensing system and public sentiment that can be mixed at best. So why the double standard?
We already have a wolf hunting season in Manitoba — sort of. You can’t actually buy a wolf licence because none exists here, but hunters who are after deer, moose, bears or caribou are allowed to shoot a wolf if they see one. Manitobans (but no one else) can continue hunting wolves all winter, so long as they’re carrying one of those other big game licences. That’s our wolf-hunting system. The Manitoba Lodges and Outfitters Association has long been asking the province to simplify that convoluted system and establish a standalone wolf licence, and its own season to go with it.
Naysayers will say wolf hunters are only after a "trophy," but that is a common and tired debate for all hunted predator species, whether they’re wolves, grizzly bears or African lions. The fact is, wolves are just as capable of eating moose and caribou as they are cows or chickens, so let’s start wrapping our heads around that fact. Large scale predator culls are about as controversial as it gets in wildlife management, so here’s an idea: why don’t we Manitobans start by making life a little easier for those who are actually willing to buy a wolf licence and hunt them one at a time?
Paul Turenne is executive director of the Manitoba Lodges and Outfitters Association.

I believe Ontario is similar..."In British Columbia, the government recently committed to increased predator control to help restore moose populations, citing a report that 45 per cent of B.C.’s moose are killed by predators such as wolves, bears and cougars, while only 18 per cent are killed by human hunters"

Hunters can't be relied on, in of themselves, to cull Big Game numbers required by the MNR for their Management plan...so predators play a bigger role.

Do you think Mike that theres an over abundance, or even abundance of
Moose
Caribou
Whitetails
Grouse
Rabbits
Beaver
Fox
Others
In Ontario?

Laying off predators in Ontario ( Bears, Wolves, Coyotes, Fox) in order to allow them to pick up the slack where hunting isn't doing enough, makes sense if and only if, those prey species are A) over abundant and B) On the rise.

But what we have is the opposite:
Numerous prey species in decline(Moose certainly) or "struggling" ( WTs hence tags gutted) and disappearing ( Grouse, Rabbit etc in many area's)
Predators stable or on the rise.

Edit add
If you look at that article, and BC or Manitoba. They are expanding predator hunting because predators take more than humans and prey species are in decline.

The opposite of Ontario

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Originally Posted by jaycee

I spoke with a fellow I've known for years, he told me that they found a coyote den on a farm back last spring.
They set up a camera close by to keep track of what was going on, they also changed the card weekly, so they would not get repeat pictures.
During the time the camera was set up and until they family moved to another den site, the pictures had shown that the adult coyotes had dragged in 11 , yes that is eleven different fawns to feed their pups.
At eleven fawns, that is "a lot " of deer taken out of the system.

Looks like there will have to be a lot more guys/gals out there hunting/shooting coyotes to help get the deer population back up on it's feet.

Our M.N.R.F will also have to look into this with more foresight/ openmindedness than they have , open up the coyote/wolf hunting in areas they have closed, and also " stop" with all the extra tags that have been available over the years, and also look into possibly shortening the lenght of the deer season .
Myself I see no reason to carry on with an archery season after the December shotgun/muzzle loader hunt, that is my opinion and there is no reason to starts arguements here on this forum about it. Open discussion yes but no arguements.

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Can you get some pictures of the coyotes dragging the fawns back to the dawns and post them here... I can make sure they end up in the proper people's hands at MNR.

I like Monsters idea of putting the pictures that Jaycees friend has in the hands of the MNR.
Show them what is happening.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monster29/66

Can you get some pictures of the coyotes dragging the fawns back to the dawns and post them here... I can make sure they end up in the proper people's hands at MNR.

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I think that has already been done, but don't forget this happened way back last spring.

Jaycee... this goes hand in hand with what I've noticed around here for the past few years. Our deer sightings during the gun season have been way down. Those of us that hunt the archery season have not been seeing much either. However, we are still seeing sign in the usual places, not as much but enough to be encouraging.

My theory has been that it's because the one and a half year old deer are just not around like they used to be. As we all know, those are the deer that are generally seen or shot during the hunting season. The older, smarter deer are still around to leave sign, mostly at night, but the younger deer are largely missing from the population because they just aren't surviving as fawns. Trail camera pics (by those in the group that use them) seem to support this as well. Mostly older deer and mostly at night. We're also seeing more coyotes in places we've never seen them in the past.

I don't doubt for a second that those coyotes ate 11 fawns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

I think that has already been done, but don't forget this happened way back last spring.

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I have little doubt coyotes are having a negative impact on the deer, personally this year I killed 4 while out deer hunting and saw many on cam both in day and night.

We ran hounds the other day and two more bit the biscuit.

I do not believe yotes are the sole or primary reason populations are down.

Let's not forget we had back to back brutally cold winters with deep snow ( ideal conditions for yotes to kill deer ) and difficult winters for deer just to survive, especially if they were over populated as scarce food doesn't go far with more mouths to feed.

Herd numbers don't recover over in one season with the light winter we had i definately noticed more yote pups running around this year.

However at the end of the day most hunters still can only get one deer tag and I do applaud MNR for getting rid of the extra tags on the WMUs I hunt and restricting antler less deer tags.. I think the new reality is that although hunters are getting less tags they are still filling them.

I know of one group of 14 that filled their 14 tags on the shotgun hunt dogging small bushes I'm not sure that
Deer are that scarce.

They are however getting a lot smarter with the heavy pressure that occurs both by dogging and guys bow hunting three months of the year.

We will see what MNR does with the antler less deer draws this year and if less non antlered deer tags are issued my observation though is the deer herd in the WMUs I hunt is stable but slightly lower than what most hunters prefer.

We can all do our part by limiting harvest of mature does with fawns if your not happy with your local herd numbers and take out your lack of deer harvesting opportunities on the local gang of Coyotes.

My yote bait pile started Sunday. I've got 2 50 cal muzzleloaders with powder n bullets still in the bore from deer hunting..... I'm just too cheap to waste those loads on a target when I can put another big hole in a dirty ole yote. .

Ps i am convinced high numbers of turkeys in some areas are reducing the carrying capacity of the land for deer.

When 120 Turks move into a 15 acre cut corn field that is left not disced for the deer as a food source and start eating a cob a day minimum...

What is left for the deer that need that corn to fatten up for winter.

Its seems like there’s a whole legion of hunters out there who think that the deer numbers we experienced in the first decade of this millennium, and all the extra tags that came with it, are the norm. It is not, at least not in Ontario.

Yes deer numbers are still low in some areas, but are gradually rebounding in others. In much of southern & south-western Ontario the deer hunting is great.

The primary reason for the still low deer numbers in those parts of the province where I hunt are the back-to-back hard winters of 2013/14 and 2014/15. Those winters knocked the snot out of our deer population.

The years 2000-2012 were the modern “good ol’ days” of Ontario deer hunting, yet during the tail-end of that period many hunters were already seeing a downward trend. The abundant additional tags and antlerless validations were certainly working to bring the deer population down, as they were supposed to. But what puzzled many of us was that when deer numbers were back down to what most of us considered “normal levels”, the MNR still kept giving out extra and antlerless tags like beads at a Mardi Gras parade. So hunters kept filling additional tags and shooting every doe they saw because every hunter had an antlerless validation in his pocket.

Then the winter of 2013/14 hit and it was bad for the deer, but for reasons unknown we were still showered with tags & antlerless validations. Then the unthinkable happened and there was another bad winter in 2014/15. As a result the additional tags dried up somewhat, but many groups still had more antlerless validations than they knew what to do with. Its like there was a 3-year time-lag in MNR decision-making when it came to tags/validations. It was the worst possible combination, the MNR licensed us to shoot too many deer in general and too many does in particular, just as Mother Nature gave the herd a huge -kicking.

One relatively easy winter in 2015/16 does not instantly recover a deer herd. Deer still have to be conceived and grow. Yes coyotes take deer and by all means shoot every ‘yote you see, but they are not the main problem as far as our deer are concerned. Our deer are not in a crisis situation and the deer will come back to realistic normal levels, as long as the next few winters are not unusually harsh. At the same time I really hope that the MNR finds a way to be more responsive and timely in adjusting tag/validation numbers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ninepointer

Its seems like there’s a whole legion of hunters out there who think that the deer numbers we experienced in the first decade of this millennium, and all the extra tags that came with it, are the norm. It is not, at least not in Ontario.

Yes deer numbers are still low in some areas, but are gradually rebounding in others. In much of southern & south-western Ontario the deer hunting is great.

The primary reason for the still low deer numbers in those parts of the province where I hunt are the back-to-back hard winters of 2013/14 and 2014/15. Those winters knocked the snot out of our deer population.

The years 2000-2012 were the modern “good ol’ days” of Ontario deer hunting, yet during the tail-end of that period many hunters were already seeing a downward trend. The abundant additional tags and antlerless validations were certainly working to bring the deer population down, as they were supposed to. But what puzzled many of us was that when deer numbers were back down to what most of us considered “normal levels”, the MNR still kept giving out extra and antlerless tags like beads at a Mardi Gras parade. So hunters kept filling additional tags and shooting every doe they saw because every hunter had an antlerless validation in his pocket.

Then the winter of 2013/14 hit and it was bad for the deer, but for reasons unknown we were still showered with tags & antlerless validations. Then the unthinkable happened and there was another bad winter in 2014/15. As a result the additional tags dried up somewhat, but many groups still had more antlerless validations than they knew what to do with. Its like there was a 3-year time-lag in MNR decision-making when it came to tags/validations. It was the worst possible combination, the MNR licensed us to shoot too many deer in general and too many does in particular, just as Mother Nature gave the herd a huge -kicking.

One relatively easy winter in 2015/16 does not instantly recover a deer herd. Deer still have to be conceived and grow. Yes coyotes take deer and by all means shoot every ‘yote you see, but they are not the main problem as far as our deer are concerned. Our deer are not in a crisis situation and the deer will come back to realistic normal levels, as long as the next few winters are not unusually harsh. At the same time I really hope that the MNR finds a way to be more responsive and timely in adjusting tag/validation numbers.

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With all due respect, I don't buy the 2 harsh winters being the principal cause of the deer population decline.

I lived long enough to have experienced more severe winters of past - harsh winters were the norm - but the deer populations still did well and increased over those years.

There are many more factors at play here.

Yes- like coyotes abounding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Species8472

What we need is the MNR to spend some money on good science to get a handle on what and where the numbers actually are. Then based on the sound science make sound management decisions to best manage the population for whatever the goals may be. If that means cuts to whoever and wherever so be it. Most of the observations we as hunters make in the field, while valuable, are anecdotal for the most part. For example in 82a this year I saw more fawns, does and bucks than I have ever seen. Other guys a few concessions away didn't see squat - so who's opinion is valid? Who knows - we need a bunch of field experienced biologists on the ground and in the air to get a proper handle on things. Otherwise we are just guessing.

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They don't have the money and the resources, that's the sad part. MNR relies on hunter surveys and deer-vehicle collision numbers in S ONT. Hunters lie, collisions don't.
They also downplay the coyote role, I am not sure what's their agenda here....
I disagree with someone saying 'mother nature' will take care of the balance. This is extremely naive. Humans changed the balance forever. Besides, we don't want the deer to follow dinosaurs, do we ;) ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ahuntr300

With all due respect, I don't buy the 2 harsh winters being the principal cause of the deer population decline.

I lived long enough to have experienced more severe winters of past - harsh winters were the norm - but the deer populations still did well and increased over those years.

There are many more factors at play here.

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Then you'll know that Ontario's deer seemingly disappeared after the winter of 1958/59 (I wasn't around for that one) and again in 1971/72. Hard winters serve a double whammy: lots of deer die on the hoof and countless fawns are never born because a starving doe's body aborts the pregnancy even if the doe survives the winter.

When I was a kid growing up in Niagara in the early 1970's, if you so much as saw a set of deer tracks your whole family walked out to the back fourty to have a look. If you actually saw a live deer you phoned all your neighbours to tell them about it.

Other factors at play these days? Of course. Like I said, miscalculated management was one. We were allowed to shoot too many deer even after numbers were brought down to suitable winter range carrying capacity. Then the winters of 2013/14 & 2014/15 hit and the predators had an all-you-can-eat buffet. Snow was deep and deer were starving and weak. I live next to a deer yard and there were picked-over deer carcasses everywhere those winters. I shoot coyotes on sight, but canid predation is not big factor when other conditions are within the range of normal.

Don't lose your heads folks, Ontario is not in a deer crisis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninepointer

Then you'll know that Ontario's deer seemingly disappeared after the winter of 1958/59 (I wasn't around for that one) and again in 1971/72. Hard winters serve a double whammy: lots of deer die on the hoof and countless fawns are never born because a starving doe's body aborts the pregnancy even if the doe survives the winter.

When I was a kid growing up in Niagara in the early 1970's, if you so much as saw a set of deer tracks your whole family walked out to the back fourty to have a look. If you actually saw a live deer you phoned all your neighbours to tell them about it.

Other factors at play these days? Of course. Like I said, miscalculated management was one. We were allowed to shoot too many deer even after numbers were brought down to suitable winter range carrying capacity. Then the winters of 2013/14 & 2014/15 hit and the predators had an all-you-can-eat buffet. Snow was deep and deer were starving and weak. I live next to a deer yard and there were picked-over deer carcasses everywhere those winters. I shoot coyotes on sight, but canid predation is not big factor when other conditions are within the range of normal.

Don't lose your heads folks, Ontario is not in a deer crisis.

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This.

With some caveats.
The lodge I hunt at which is right in the heart of the Loring winter yards, has some old pics and lots of history. One pic from I think the 1940s has a group of hunters and their dogs. The meat pole behind them is stacked with deer. Lots of deer around back then in numbers Im not sure anyone has hung there in decades ( despite impressive years and the "so called glory years of 2000-2010).

So much depends on where exactly we are talking about. SW Ontario? IMO if you live and hunt there consider yourself lucky, you live in the land of plenty and easy street. Are predators a problem there ( likely the worst area for Coyotes, they are like fleas there). If predation was "the" problem...well SW Ontario's deer don't seem to be hurting...

Central Ontario?
Thats an entirely different region

Winters.
Can say that 2013 and 2014 took a toll on deer in 47. The guy that lives there, has two BMAs, was part of the old Loring winter feed program, who at one time would have hundreds of deer in his front yard ( literally). Has all kinds of first hand experience with finding 6-12 dead does in the spring, piled up under trees. Of the lack of fawns in the following years. Theres "word of mouth" of the MNR going in, in the spring and finding 30-40 Does piled up....... He's also seen the wolves and coyotes increasing in numbers, out on the ice.....

Not enough?
Algonquin park at one time was loaded with Whitetails. Lots written about the winters of 71/72, which came on the heels of winter yards being logged. They've never recovered. Are the wolves to blame? Hardly, but its like throwing fuel on a fire. And would seem as though the MNR hasn't learned from history or past mistakes.

For the record.
47 in 2 years went from almost 100% additional and 6,000 antler less to squat and slim to none.

We saw decent numbers this year (subjective term) and even better some fawns and for the first year in 3 years, we didn't see (or hear) the dogs. As with most things in life it's never one thing.

And with respect to "let nature handle it".
Impossible so long as we (man) are around. We're part of the equation and nature will never be able to establish a "balance" so long as we are around. By all means, cull man first or yourself then maybe nature will have a fighting chance...

Seen the urban sprawl through 73 the last few years?
Seen the changes to cottage country the last decade or two?
What do you think all that displacement and human encroachment is doing to small game, big game...
And Coyotes? Well they are incredibly adaptable..Doesnt seem to be affecting them in the slightest......

In the South part of 47, we would have 80 to 100 deer sightings in a week at camp. Then the winters of 13/14 and 14/15 hit. Now we see around 20 deer per week. We apply for doe tags, but we decided not to shoot them. The trapper in our area sledded around his grounds and found deer in neck deep snow. He cut some maples down for them.

Now down here in 90, we have a coyote group that consistently gets 50 plus yotes year hunting the same blocks. Do neighbouring yotes move into those blocks or do they just breed back that many every year?

Almost in line with us cramadog, and we hunt the migration (last week of archery).
2015 we saw I think a total of 6, hung 1.
During rifle which is just the resident deer, the guys that go for that hung 3

2014
Not much better. Saw less than 20.

2016
This year we were snake bitten. Not many chances, only 2 Doe tags for the group and passing on Does/fawns. We didn't hang any, but saw at least 60 (and fawns, the most important). Many years ago they'd see 300 and more for the week. During rifle (again just residents that time of year) they hung 1, saw 4.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cramadog2

In the South part of 47, we would have 80 to 100 deer sightings in a week at camp. Then the winters of 13/14 and 14/15 hit. Now we see around 20 deer per week. We apply for doe tags, but we decided not to shoot them. The trapper in our area sledded around his grounds and found deer in neck deep snow. He cut some maples down for them.

Now down here in 90, we have a coyote group that consistently gets 50 plus yotes year hunting the same blocks. Do neighbouring yotes move into those blocks or do they just breed back that many every year?

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Coyotes always go where the food is,deplete it and move on. Can you remember the last time you ever saw a starved to death Coyote carcass? Me,neither.

Quote:

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[COLOR=#333333]I do not believe yotes are the sole or primary reason populations are down.

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No where in my post did I ever say the above, I mentioned the number of fawns that those coyotes [on film ] had taken down as I thought that it was a high number, and those were the ones they had brought to just the one den site, then after a few weeks the coyote family moves to another den site till the pups are on their own.
In the mean time at the new site , how many more did they kill? without those fawns there will be no reproduction, as some would have twins in their prime years and that all adds up to a lot of missing deer in future years.
Yes I agree in some parts of Ontario, the deer are doing well, but in others they are dwindling drastically.

[COLOR=#333333] "When 120 Turks move into a 15 acre cut corn field that is left not disced for the deer as a food source and start eating a cob a day minimum...[COLOR=#333333]What is left for the deer that need that corn to fatten up for winter. "

I think you had better study up on the habits of deer and what they eat.

Deer survive mainly on browse, not corn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

The lodge I hunt at which is right in the heart of the Loring winter yards, has some old pics and lots of history. One pic from I think the 1940s has a group of hunters and their dogs. The meat pole behind them is stacked with deer.

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Ah... the 1940's. Some pics from our WMU 47 deer camp:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ps3ciyagu2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...pscvyjbu1d.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cramadog2

In the South part of 47, we would have 80 to 100 deer sightings in a week at camp. Then the winters of 13/14 and 14/15 hit. Now we see around 20 deer per week. We apply for doe tags, but we decided not to shoot them. The trapper in our area sledded around his grounds and found deer in neck deep snow. He cut some maples down for them.

Now down here in 90, we have a coyote group that consistently gets 50 plus yotes year hunting the same blocks. Do neighbouring yotes move into those blocks or do they just breed back that many every year?

---

A friend of mine has an 800 acre farm in 47 just below Arnstein, he spends a lot of time up there over the last few years, improving things.
His comment on the number of deer seen this year was 3 , thats it 3 deer seen where did they all go? as that has always been a prime deer area. the deer seen were all adults , no young ones of the year.
Lots of coyotes that no longer see the light of day, and quite a few bears, these predators must all be eating a lot of youg venison , as he says they are/were in good shape.

lol yep, like that. :)
The pic on the wall Im referring to has a group of guys and a stack hanging I have trouble wrapping my head around. :). The best part is in amongst all the guys with their rifles, and dogs is some guy holding a long bow. Can you imagine the deer being so thick that you could use a long bow during a push with dogs. :)

personally I think the biggest problem currently with many parts of Central Ontario is habitat loss, (sprawl) and human encroachment.I mean the Kawarthas and Muskokas compared to just 30 years ago.......... Then the winters of 13-14. In ways not unlike areas close to APP back in 71/72. The dogs are just making a bad situation, "worse".

When I look at the sprawl around here, and the dwindling numbers of all kinds of things. They have to go somewhere....
And we are creating anvils and steel traps. No way "nature" can balance things, not with us constantly and drastically altering nature and mucking with it. Look how much Barrie has grown in just the past 5 years. Their world (all kinds of prey species and not just WTs) is getting smaller and smaller. And Coyotes ( and wolves to I guess).........

With regard to what Ninepointer said:

Then the winter of 2013/14 hit and it was bad for the deer, but for reasons unknown we were still showered with tags & antlerless validations. Then the unthinkable happened and there was another bad winter in 2014/15. As a result the additional tags dried up somewhat

I think the answer to why there was no reduction in tags in 2014 was that there was a provincial election in late June 2014. Ministers would have been ordering the civil service that they didn't want any potentially negative messages or actions going out which might result in votes against reigning government.

I'm not railing against the Liberals. Mike Harris did the same thing when he closed the spring bear hunt. He was threatened by anti hunting forces just prior to an election and gave in to them. These actions by both parties are disgusting. Natural resources should be managed for the benefit of the natural resource first, then the public and never for the political party.

Can only guess at this, but if I'm the MNR and trying to manage a province as big as Ontario, with so many issues and problems (Moose, Walleye, Asian Carp, WTs, Rabbits, Coyotes, Wolves, and on and on and on) on a shoe string budget.

For Whitetails, I would monitor the winter yards. I don't know from how far deer migrate into the Loring Yards. From all over 47, I imagine and maybe beyond. But for a few months each year.........And also why when I hear word of month the MNR went in there in the spring of 14 and found 20, 30 does dead and piled up under trees........I don't apply as much salt as I might normally...

One day theres just the residents, the next poof thousands of deer concentrated in a small area, then as if on cue one morning in Feb/March poof they are all gone, back to wherever they came from. Would I think tell me, how the deer from a big chunk of central Ontario are faring............

When we arrived on the 8th, the migration had just started, deer were on the move. When the 3.5 day blizzard hit on Sun night it shut down until Wednesday night when the dam opened and they started pouring in from wherever they waited out the storm. Sadly that just left us basically 1 day to hunt.

I received an email from the people that live there. As I said, in years gone by they would be host to hundreds of deer over the winter.

Not 1 week after we left, they started showing up right in front of our cabin. Lol, Murphys Law.

http://jbenphotography.ca/img/s10/v102/p2162313383.jpg

If this were taken on Dec 15th, thats where we park our bikes and leave Bows.............
http://jbenphotography.ca/img/s11/v3/p2162313375.jpg

I imagine by now there are even more showing up in their yard every day.

[COLOR=#333333] "When 120 Turks move into a 15 acre cut corn field that is left not disced for the deer as a food source and start eating a cob a day minimum...[COLOR=#333333]What is left for the deer that need that corn to fatten up for winter. "

I think you had better study up on the habits of deer and what they eat.

Deer survive mainly on browse, not corn[/QUOTE]

Jaycee

Deer eat browse in the middle of winter when other food sources aren't available because they are buried under 2 feet of snow. That's is natures way of adapting to conditions. Tree branches have a habit of being above snow.

I know for a fact deer will winter beside a standing corn field if its available as we left a field for sileage behind my house 4 years ago and guess what.

The deer never went to the yard down the road that happens to be beside a 100 acre field that has been left standing for spring sileage for their dairy cattle . They stayed right in my managed forest browsing on buds and chewing kernels off corn from the standing corn.

You keep studying the Internet to hone your outdoor skills... I'll form my opinions based on what I see in the woods swamps and fields in my back yard.

What was the point of your thread to complain that MNR wasn't doing its job, deer were scarce and based on here say coyotes ate 9 fawns.. Why do you think I asked you to get pictures because I knew it was complete BS...


It sounds like you had a tough hunt and are looking to blame everyone or everything out of your control for it.

Ohh well study up on the Internet for next season or get out there kill some yotes, let some does walk and try and have a better season.

Ps have you watched turkeys eat the same buds off Trees that deer browse off... I HAVE.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monster29/66

[COLOR=#333333] "When 120 Turks move into a 15 acre cut corn field that is left not disced for the deer as a food source and start eating a cob a day minimum...[COLOR=#333333]What is left for the deer that need that corn to fatten up for winter. "

I think you had better study up on the habits of deer and what they eat.

Deer survive mainly on browse, not corn

---

Jaycee

Deer eat browse in the middle of winter when other food sources aren't available because they are buried under 2 feet of snow. That's is natures way of adapting to conditions. Tree branches have a habit of being above snow.

I know for a fact deer will winter beside a standing corn field if its available as we left a field for sileage behind my house 4 years ago and guess what.

The deer never went to the yard down the road that happens to be beside a 100 acre field that has been left standing for spring sileage for their dairy cattle . They stayed right in my managed forest browsing on buds and chewing kernels off corn from the standing corn.

You keep studying the Internet to hone your outdoor skills... I'll form my opinions based on what I see in the woods swamps and fields in my back yard.

What was the point of your thread to complain that MNR wasn't doing its job, deer were scarce and based on here say coyotes ate 9 fawns.. Why do you think I asked you to get pictures because I knew it was complete BS...


It sounds like you had a tough hunt and are looking to blame everyone or everything out of your control for it.

Ohh well study up on the Internet for next season or get out there kill some yotes, let some does walk and try and have a better season.

Ps have you watched turkeys eat the same buds off Trees that deer browse off... I HAVE.[/QUOTE]



You know absolutely nothing about me, I am not an internet type person, and I have not hunted this year due to knee replacement surgery.
I we live in the country, [40 years ] born and raised in the country, what I speak of is what I see right in our back yard, fields and the surrounding country, and from information from the surrounding farmers/landowners who are out there every day.
I have been hunting now for 60 years, which is most likely longer than you have been on this earth, and more than likely killed more deer than you have seen, by use of bow, shotgun, muzzleloader and rifle.
As I said when I speak I state what I see and have seen, other than what I was told about the pictures of coyotes dragging in fawns to feed their young, I posted that as info. as I thought the number was rather high, but they have/had the pictures to prove it.
You can have your own opinion, but you know what they say about opinions and certain body parts,"everyone has them."

Jaycee


Others have stated back to back severe winters are a contributing factor but you've dismissed that given some guy you know, has pics of 11 fawns being eaten by wile e coyote in a den.

Is this why the Road Runner cartoon was taken off air.

Ps if you've killed more deer than I've seen and let go..don't worry about coyotes... It's you sir that would of wiped out the deer herd.

Interesting.
Sometimes the world works in funny ways. Just what we are in part talking about.

1. MNR’s business has expanded to encompass new responsibilities, such as land useplanning in the Far North and the use of Crown land for green energy projects3. At the same time natural resource management is also becoming more challenging: Ontario’s population is growing, its climate is changing, human activities from both within and outside of Ontario continually alter our land and water systems, and patterns of resources are driven by global economic forces and societal trends. The conflicts and competinguses created by these pressures steadily increase and accumulate. "
   
   **********
   
   Funny no mention of utterly inadequate fundingis, just more and more responsibilities and demands on the MNRF. Nor how that same growing, ever expanding population that continually alters "nature" and thus "natural balance", doesn't help pay the cost.
   
   just anglers and hunters

**********
"Another example of how MNR has evolved a management system to consider thebroader-scale landscape is the creation of nine Cervid Ecological Zones as part ofOntario’s Cervid Ecological Framework9. For each zone, the Framework contains broadguidance about how Ontario’s cervid species (moose, deer, caribou and elk) should bemanaged in relation to each other across a given landscape. Cervid Ecological Zonesbuild from existing Wildlife Management Unit boundaries but incorporate additionalinformation about landscape-level climate and habitat variation from the ELC system,species distribution and species abundance. "
*************

Theres a boat load to read and digest and try to ascertain how changes might affect this or that. How changes (and what the changes are exactly) might affect all different synergies and relationships. Aka how a change to say um

Coyote/wolf management
Might impact small game, and or cervids in central Ontario (the issue really in this thread), or how various things ( the same but also habitat loss, urban sprawl) and even weather like a couple back to back killer winters, might combine to create problems.

https://dr6j45jk9xcmk.cloudfront.net...rod-101043.pdf

Which seems odd because everything we can see on the surface (aka recent changes) flies in the face of this so called broader landscape approach.


The EBR for small game/fur bearing changes from which the above is linked.
https://www.ebr.gov.on.ca/ERS-WEB-Ex...language=en%3f

I did read that in areas of high snow that the deer will eat the trees that they can reach because the snow is too deep for them to uncover food. That makes complete sense to me. Snow can wreck havoc on deer and they become stuck in areas of high snow....with no food, they die.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

I did read that in areas of high snow that the deer will eat the trees that they can reach because the snow is too deep for them to uncover food. That makes complete sense to me. Snow can wreck havoc on deer and they become stuck in areas of high snow....with no food, they die.

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Found this on a different site;
Diet[COLOR=#555555][edit[COLOR=#555555]]

[COLOR=#252525]White-tailed deer eat large amounts of food, commonly eating legumes and foraging on other plants, including shoots, leaves, cacti (in deserts), prairie forbs,^[25] and grasses. They also eat acorns, fruit, and corn. Their special stomachs allow them to eat some things humans cannot, such as mushrooms and poison ivy. Their diets vary by season according to availability of food sources. They also eat hay, grass, white clover, and other foods they can find in a farm yard. Though almost entirely herbivorous, white-tailed deer have been known to opportunistically feed on nesting songbirds, field mice, and birds trapped in mist nets, if the need arises.^[26]
[COLOR=#252525]The white-tailed deer is a ruminant, which means it has a four-chambered stomach. Each chamber has a different and specific function that allows the deer to eat a variety of different foods, digesting it at a later time in a safe area of cover. The stomach hosts a complex set of microbes that change as the deer's diet changes through the seasons. If the microbes necessary for digestion of a particular food (e.g., hay) are absent, it will not be ​digested.<sup>[27]

Hmm! makes me wounder how they survive anywhere north of Barrie , where there is very little to absolutely no corn grown at all.
The deer up at the camp above Dorset that we have killed, must have been actually starving as I have never seen corn growing there in the bush, yet these deer usually had large amounts of white fat on their bodies and seemed to be very healthy, very strange???</sup>

Its a little more than just available browse they can get to NAY. The Loring Yards are likely the most famous/storied in Ontario. One reason sooooooo many deer migrate there when the snow starts to fall is because its rich/thick with hemlock ( wide at the top) and that helps keep snow off the ground like an umbrella. We hunt the migration, are right smack dab in the middle of the yard and which means we hunt "the runways". In short trails the deer know are there despite the snow and use year after year, generation after generation. I imagine all the yards are much the same, places deer flock to, in order to survive the winter that have certain ecological/habitat features.. Depending on where in the province their need for yards may not be as great (aka S. Ontario).

A nice read on some of the history behind the Loring yards. And yep the MNR to knows all about it and why its such a good barometer.
http://www.northbaynipissing.com/new...-deer-country/

A little more that kind of looks at the habitat and run ways. And I think talks about the winter feeding program that was nixed around y2k.
http://www.steerto.com/?p=820

And finally a thread from the spring of 2014.
Page 2 has some interesting comments and dire predictions.
http://www.oodmag.com/community/show...d-Status/page2

This was good info from your link Jben.

"It is estimated the Loring area has a “carrying capacity” of between 8,000-10,000 deer. Using the idiom “in a nutshell” applies here. Deer migrate, from their summer range, into this wintering yard. Some deer will travel a distance of more than 100 kilometres, seeking refuge for the winter. The deer are attracted to the area for the winter shelter, found under the canopy of the towering hemlock forests. Ground snow depths are reduced under these protective conifers, making travel throughout the winter less demanding on the deer. There is more to understand."

The last link was sad :(:(:(...

Yeah the last link is kind of sad. Sad that many people who spend time in the bush knew in the spring of 2014....what was coming (without knowing the winter that was coming)...
And still it took another full year and the winter of 2014-5 before tags started being reduced (drastically). In the fall of 2015 anlterless validations were gutted as were additional. This past fall (2016) basically zero available and while there were a few anlterless, getting one of those, a person should have probably run out and bought a lottery ticket as well.

Ive spoken about the place we go to many times in many threads. How the guy that lives there and owns property has a couple BMAs, knows the land and bush like few others (his family has owned land in Golden Valley since the 60s or so ) I kind of laughed when that one link pretty much took me right to the door of the cabin and the old viewing platform. "guaranteed to see deer on the way".
lol, not any more............
/sigh

Most of the people that spend significant time in the Loring yards or live there year round. Saw the dead deer piled up under the trees ( The one writer in one link spoke of deer stepping off the runways to find browse and.....) in the spring of 2014 and knew not only had there been a big kill, and awful lot of fawns were going to be absorbed by starving Does. And lo and behold very, very few fawns were seen in the summer/fall of 2014.

Yeah obviously dogs (coyotes/wolves and maybe even bears) are putting a bite into them as well. Certainly not helping, hurting-making it worse. The same people that live there or spend a lot of time there have seen a very noticeable increase in the numbers of dogs. But they don't blame the dogs, though they might wonder why they are allowed to make a bad situation worse. Especially when everyone (except perhaps some beuracrats at QP) knows that things are a changing, constantly and very little of it for the better.

The MNR reacting to an event two years lateis a lot better than 30-40 years ago. The MNR didn't react to the winter/wolf kills from the early 1960's until the late 1970's. You've got to remember that the MNR has very few guys in the field and the guys in the office don't know too much. They react now largely to complaints from hunters and outdoorsmen's clubs.

It's good to see they are trying with the deer. (really trying to avoid bringing up the moose though).

Lol yeah.
hence why I try to include references to budgets, a huge landmass with not just 90 WMUs. Huge and many very different ecological/climate regions. If we lived anywhere but here, we'd be 3 or 4 different states (a lot easier to manage one smaller state, than 4-6) or 8-10 countries in Europe. A person can drive for 18hours in Europe and see 8 different countries. That won't get you out of Ontario, need 4-5more hours.....

Agree, reading some of the proposed changes (Cervid zones) is encouraging, but still as you said.
Dogs
Moose

makes zero sense

I'm surprised that some of you think that it's such an outrageous idea that a family of coyotes could eat 11 fawns in one spring.

Throw in an early winter with deep or crusty snow along with late-born fawns and it's another smorgasbord for the yotes.

Since 2010, with six of us hunting the firearms season and three of us hunting the archery season, we have collectively laid eyes upon exactly one live fawn. One. This was hunting in three different WMU'S in the Peterborough area on private and public land.


http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/big...ing-your-fawns

http://www.petersenshunting.com/pred...ing-your-deer/

Don't know.
I imagine if the MNR didn't know what Coyotes were capable of, or worded differently wanted to get a sense of just how big, or how small a dent they are making it would be easy enough for them to visit a couple dozen den sites from different areas ( Im sure the Coyotes in cities, don't have the same diet as Coyotes in Chatham, and the Coyotes in Chatham likely have a different diet than those in say Madoc)

And catalogue bones. Im thinking, maybe they have a decent idea.
*********

But heres a thought.
2013 was the winter of the ice storm. Our hunt that year, there wasn't a lot of snow but man was it cold. Mid December temps each day were -30 to start, warming up to a balmy -20. And it stayed that way pretty much right through to March. If I recall correctly the snow didn't let go until April, and we had snowfalls in May.

2014 winter came late.If I recall there was some snow on the ground mid December, but not enough to trigger the migration, or keep them on the run ways. That came well after the season closed,but it came.

If deer are starving,and suffering from the elements, are the dogs "really" faring that much better? I'm thinking they are pretty hungry too..........

So far, this year.Theres snow and lots of it, and all forecast have predicted a somewhat mild winter with a lot of snow, largely due to Lake effect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GW11

I'm surprised that some of you think that it's such an outrageous idea that a family of coyotes could eat 11 fawns in one spring.

Throw in an early winter with deep or crusty snow along with late-born fawns and it's another smorgasbord for the yotes.

Since 2010, with six of us hunting the firearms season and three of us hunting the archery season, we have collectively laid eyes upon exactly one live fawn. One. This was hunting in three different WMU'S in the Peterborough area on private and public land.
/

---

Are you sure your group knows the difference between a fawn and a young doe?
Because guess what, the deer you are seeing today were fawns in 2010, 2011, 2012....etc

Life expectancy of a deer is very short and the fawn grows up real quick almost looking like a small doe come November. The white spots are all gone.

https://www.uwsp.edu/wildlife/Ungula...e-History.aspx

Quote:

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Originally Posted by impact

Are you sure your group knows the difference between a fawn and a young doe?
Because guess what, the deer you are seeing today were fawns in 2010, 2011, 2012....etc

Life expectancy of a deer is very short and the fawn grows up real quick almost looking like a small doe come November. The white spots are all gone.

https://www.uwsp.edu/wildlife/Ungula...e-History.aspx

---

Respectfully speaking Impact, we didn't just start hunting in 2010. That was just the year that we noticed a big drop in fawn sightings. I graduated from Fish and Wildlife Technology in 1997 and have been deer hunting for 26 years.

Oh and speaking of "those deer we're seeing today"... we put in almost 300 man hours during the firearms season this fall and saw 4 deer in total. My Dad (retired) spent quite a bit of time in a treestand for the three months of archery season and didn't see a single deer. There's something not right here. On the bright side, he did get a few trail cam pics of twin fawns this December on a new-to-us property. Haven't seen them with my own eyes but they're the first "sightings" since the one I saw in 2011.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

Don't know.
I imagine if the MNR didn't know what Coyotes were capable of, or worded differently wanted to get a sense of just how big, or how small a dent they are making it would be easy enough for them to visit a couple dozen den sites from different areas ( Im sure the Coyotes in cities, don't have the same diet as Coyotes in Chatham, and the Coyotes in Chatham likely have a different diet than those in say Madoc)

And catalogue bones. Im thinking, maybe they have a decent idea.
*********

But heres a thought.
2013 was the winter of the ice storm. Our hunt that year, there wasn't a lot of snow but man was it cold. Mid December temps each day were -30 to start, warming up to a balmy -20. And it stayed that way pretty much right through to March. If I recall correctly the snow didn't let go until April, and we had snowfalls in May.

2014 winter came late.If I recall there was some snow on the ground mid December, but not enough to trigger the migration, or keep them on the run ways. That came well after the season closed,but it came.

If deer are starving,and suffering from the elements, are the dogs "really" faring that much better? I'm thinking they are pretty hungry too..........

So far, this year.Theres snow and lots of it, and all forecast have predicted a somewhat mild winter with a lot of snow, largely due to Lake effect.

---

You would think it would be easy enough, but I can't see the MNR spending much on studying the dynamics of the deer/coyote relationship when they can barely afford gas to patrol during hunting seasons.

As to the question of how coyotes really fare during tough conditions when deer are starving... I believe they fare quite well. Every deer that starves to death is a meal.

Coyotes always win.....
The coyotes will do well in good winters, lots of live food to eat and coyotes will do well in bad winters, lots of dead animals to eat... With coyotes it's always a win, win situation. With that said, I still don't think coyotes are the biggest problem.

I am no biologist and have no real sense how MNR gets their numbers or data for deer tag allocations but the winters down here have not been that tough at all. Lots of standing corn and farmers winter wheat to keep them going.... Still seeing plenty of deer and ironically very few coyotes....

Managing all those WMU's must be tough...

Deer eat a wide variety of food based on what's available.. Northern deer get mast from various nuts and buds
( white oak acorns ) from my experience, and yes they carry a lot of fat for winter from it.

Further north Thunder Bay, Kenora where agriculture farming is present in addition to big woods deer eat from both.

Are deer population high there YES.. I counted 59 deer one evening in a friends field. Do those areas have coyotes wolves and bears as predators YES, wolves don't just kill fawns either.

I don't believe the reduction in deer in certain parts of Ontario is due to any one thing but a combination of many factors, I don't think however it's a crisis and we will see what this winter holds.

If we recall high deer populations back 10 years ago followed 3 or 4 very mild winters where I parked my snowmobile and ice hut because of it and people believed in global warming.

And the coyote population will correct itself when mange strikes again.

I think you misunderstood what I was really "saying" Monster. Will reword it somewhat.

If the winter is bad enough that deer are having a hard time finding food and thus starving. If it's cold enough that their metabolism is very slow.....Are predators "really" faring any better?

Im thinking they too are having a harder time than normal and are hungry.............Which means that weak starving deer are looking really tasty. I don't know, am just guessing, that if I was a coyote during a harsh winter, Id
A) stand better chances of getting a deer meal than say a rabbit
B) Would like most creatures in nature, want to expend as little energy and calories for the most nutrition.

"do the math"
******

Re Crisis.
Does it really matter if that question is definitively answered?

What we do know, is that deer are down. In some areas maybe a little, maybe a lot.

I don't know, maybe just me but when I have what we called in our business a brushfire, we did things to make sure it didn't become a forest fire, and one thing we would never do is throw fuel on the fire.....

just saying.

IMO, bad winters are just one factor - as I said before, happened before and the deer herd weathered it just fine - actually grew, so what is different now for the last 10 to 15 years ?

Why is it that just south of the border in NY and Pennsylvania they still have tons of deer despite harsher winters than our own?

By the same token, coyotes have always been around - yes there may be more of them now because of the dog like protection they have enjoyed in recent years.

My opinion is that it comes down to management of the herd that is the problem. Doe tags too easy to get and multiple tags available for years - in many cases doe only. This had the desired effect of drastically reducing the herd.

The scarcity has been engineered by design IMO. For some reason, they do not want too large of a herd.

You must mean like the winter of 71/72 and the deer herds in (and around APP). They've never recovered, not even close.
*****

I'm not sure how much we can look at history,because at no time in history has the climate been changing nor the ecology as much as it "today". And I don't anybody that can predict the weather for this year, let alone the next 5-10-15. Let alone climate change and what that might do to habitat.

Consider central Ontario and the snow belt that starts around Parry Sound, south down the Bruce and SE across through Barrie/Simcoe into towards Lindsay ( North of Durham). For every inch or so Durham might get, the Snowbelt.......How much might that change one way or the other (lake effect)

Then
As I said.

Just look at the growth in the Muskokas/Kawarthas the past 15 years.
Or around the GTA, particularly now to the East and North East. (Orono is going to explode, PTBO) the wind farms are going in now and so much more.

10 years ago Barrie was still a sleepy little "cottage" town. Now it's the outer (if not Orilla) edge of the city. The projections for growth are somewhat insane.

Do agree that the protection predators have been and are getting (whether thats bears, wolves or Coyotes with different degrees of impact) makes a person shake their head. Like adding fuel to a small fire...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

You must mean like the winter of 71/72 and the deer herds in (and around APP). They've never recovered, not even close.
*****

I'm not sure how much we can look at history,because at no time in history has the climate been changing nor the ecology as much as it "today". And I don't anybody that can predict the weather for this year, let alone the next 5-10-15. Let alone climate change and what that might do to habitat.

Consider central Ontario and the snow belt that starts around Parry Sound, south down the Bruce and SE across through Barrie/Simcoe into towards Lindsay ( North of Durham). For every inch or so Durham might get, the Snowbelt.......How much might that change one way or the other (lake effect)

Then
As I said.

Just look at the growth in the Muskokas/Kawarthas the past 15 years.
Or around the GTA, particularly now to the East and North East. (Orono is going to explode, PTBO) the wind farms are going in now and so much more.

10 years ago Barrie was still a sleepy little "cottage" town. Now it's the outer (if not Orilla) edge of the city. The projections for growth are somewhat insane.

Do agree that the protection predators have been and are getting (whether thats bears, wolves or Coyotes with different degrees of impact) makes a person shake their head. Like adding fuel to a small fire...

---

Good point Jben - I agree, urban "sprawl" has put a lot of pressures on the deer in those areas.

So why would the MNR want to increase deer "hunting opportunities" in those areas by making doe tags easier to get and issuing multiple extra doe tags instead of doing the opposite. IMO this is to discourage hunting in those areas and to reduce deer / people related complaints like vehicle collisions

Lol, was just about to type an "addendum" because reading through my reply, gave me the impression it was "coming across wrong".

As many have said and "argued" it's very most likely a handful of things.
Tag allocations: We can speculate the possible reasons. We do know the MNR historically has been
Reactive, rather than proactive. I think the majority of people agree that the gutting of tags through Central Ontario was needed and a good thing. Prior to that, we can speculate they were issuing a ton of tags to.
A) Raise money
B) reduce herds
c) buy votes
d) who knows. :)

I am "hopeful' that for a change the MNR is becoming a little more "pro-active". The changes ( if a person can get through the buzz words and bafflegab) in the EBR might appear to reflect that. The parts that delve into "Cervid Zones" and other, might seem to suggest that.

First and foremost all wildlife will change as the "landscape" around them changes. Im sure when the ice age hit for example everything went south. In a nutshell, as the land, climate and habitat around them changes, so does carrying capacity.

Consider many of the main lakes in the Muskokas/Kawarthas. 10-15 years ago, cottages were still cottages and small sleepy towns were just that. Today, cottages are homes. Entire subdivisions with modern day homes are going in. From Sturgeon just north of Lindsay to Chemong and Buckhorn just NW of PTBO....Hows that effecting not only displacement but the water........Everything relies on water.

Snowbelt: and possibly the Morraine.
Snow pack determines the spring run off, determines how much water the aquifers get, determines the water going into creeks, and into lakes........

Who knows.........

The winter of 2017 is predicted to have a lot of snow (relative term). Largely due to "climate change". The Great Lakes are warmer, and as a result they are (were) predicted a lot of snowfall this winter. So far, they've been right and its only early January.....

Next year
10 years from now?

who the heck knows...

And we have all that urban Sprawl, especially now to the E and NE.

As the ecosystems change, carrying capacity will change. Maybe the next 5-10-20 years has the Lakes warming up and thus, the winters may be milder (gradually warming)....A lot more snow...Maybe tons more. Where will they go???

Don't know.
especially with all that urban growth occurring just below the "heart of Ontario"

I doubt anyone really knows

I don,t think the snow amount is a big deal for deer. When I came here in mid 70,s we had much more snow, that has been getting less and less every year. I would worry more about the heat and swamps drying and well,s drying out,all that took place this year in my zone. At the same time deer get a boost, farmers are planting more corn giving extra feed.It all balances out, but coyotes are a major problem and in my zone Moose who compete with deer for browse. I know it takes a lot of discipline but all of us hunters and especially veteran hunters who have taken a fair variety of deer need to be more selective and give deer a pass.I know that concept is particularly hard on those who have limited opportunities and limited places to hunt.

From page 7 Gilroy.

From a guy who maybe more than just an authority on the subject, given his work in the Loring yards and MNR.

He started in 1952 going were he was sent, including to forest fires in the Cochrane and Chapleau areas before finding a position closer to home after finishing Ranger School in 1959. The timing was important because the two following winters would be some of the most severe he would see in his lifetime and the province’s deer population, including the Argyle herd, was devastated.

“We had snow stations we would go check with four-foot stakes in the ground and I would have to put my ruler on top of the stake to get a depth measurement,” Bain said. Bain learned firsthand what a hard winter could do to a deer herd and remembers finding animals that had stepped off the trail looking for twigs and branches to chew on.“We just had snowshoes then, no snowmobiles, but I had seen where deer stepped off the trail to get something to eat and they died standing in the snow. They couldn’t move,” Bain said. The wildlife scientists at the time thought Ontario might lose 50,000 deer during the winter of 1961.“I think we lost way more,” Bain said, adding he believes the two winters combined to take out about two-thirds of the local herd."
http://www.northbaynipissing.com/new...-deer-country/

Have we had other years with lots of snow?
I'm sure we have. Who knows what other factors may, or may not have been present. Will they "survive". I'm sure they will, they always have. Will they bounce back? I'm sure they would eventually if there are no other contributing factors. They didn't following the winters of 71/72 in and around Algonquin where perhaps habitat loss at the time, and wolves......

See also Fenelons post on page 2 of the other link with respect to snow stations and the winter of 2013.

Look not saying a whole lot one way or the other, theres just way too many variables and unknowns ( mainly climate change and what will do) but also a lot of sprawl and human encroachment. More than ever in history.

What we can safely say is that their numbers in C Ontario are down (unless someone can produce evidence to the contrary). Deep snow and harsh winters can crush a herd. And theres hard evidence of that in the 50s, 70s, and 2013 14.Also from history it might seem its back to back harsh winters. Maybe other years have been bad, but the year right after?

We know the climate is changing, warming. This should reasonably change quite a few things and barring drastic warming, winters in C Ontario should still be below freezing, but if the Lakes warm a couple degrees. The Snow Belt could produce even more snow.

We also have dogs growing in numbers and being protected.

I don't know, but given I spent 20+ years in risk management, one basic thing.
Don't make things any worse, prevent bush fires from becoming forest fires, and don't do anything that could back fire large by throwing fuel on the fire.

In short during times of upheaval, change, uncertainty.
Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

For decades the mnr (including Bain) managed deer yards for wintering deer. They snowshoed, snowmobiled and during periods of heavy snow depths, bulldozed trails to make it easier for deer to travel and access for the purposes of the winter deer feeding program. Workers went in and cut trees to allow access to browse. In summer they went in and clear cut areas so new growth would generate providing browse for the deer.

These activities have stopped. The deer yards now grow naturally and I think are maturing to the point where they are very limiting in the amount of feed available to the large influx of deer that migrate into them because there is limited new undergrowth in mature forests. Add to that the practise of selective logging and quickly putting out forest fires and the forest is possibly overmaturing meaning less new growth for deer browse.

This all helps lead to the limiting of deer populations during periods of extreme winter conditions in my opinion. Along with the affect of predators, dogs at large, hunting, disease, loss of habitat due to human encroachment and road kill.....it's a tough life for the critters .today

Makes a lot of sense...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redd foxx

For decades the mnr (including Bain) managed deer yards for wintering deer. They snowshoed, snowmobiled and during periods of heavy snow depths, bulldozed trails to make it easier for deer to travel and access for the purposes of the winter deer feeding program. Workers went in and cut trees to allow access to browse. In summer they went in and clear cut areas so new growth would generate providing browse for the deer.

These activities have stopped. The deer yards now grow naturally and I think are maturing to the point where they are very limiting in the amount of feed available to the large influx of deer that migrate into them because there is limited new undergrowth in mature forests. Add to that the practise of selective logging and quickly putting out forest fires and the forest is possibly overmaturing meaning less new growth for deer browse.

This all helps lead to the limiting of deer populations during periods of extreme winter conditions in my opinion. Along with the affect of predators, dogs at large, hunting, disease, loss of habitat due to human encroachment and road kill.....it's a tough life for the critters .today

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redd foxx

For decades the mnr (including Bain) managed deer yards for wintering deer. They snowshoed, snowmobiled and during periods of heavy snow depths, bulldozed trails to make it easier for deer to travel and access for the purposes of the winter deer feeding program. Workers went in and cut trees to allow access to browse. In summer they went in and clear cut areas so new growth would generate providing browse for the deer.

These activities have stopped. The deer yards now grow naturally and I think are maturing to the point where they are very limiting in the amount of feed available to the large influx of deer that migrate into them because there is limited new undergrowth in mature forests. Add to that the practise of selective logging and quickly putting out forest fires and the forest is possibly overmaturing meaning less new growth for deer browse.

This all helps lead to the limiting of deer populations during periods of extreme winter conditions in my opinion. Along with the affect of predators, dogs at large, hunting, disease, loss of habitat due to human encroachment and road kill.....it's a tough life for the critters .today

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This ^^^^^ would be my take on the situation at large.

Attachment 34254Our deer are sleeping good tonight!!! Snared 7 wolves so far off just 2 pieces of private land.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Since we pay in advance for tags....the gov't really isn't out anything when hunters don't fill the tags...just saying :)



With fewer hunters and low 'success' rates (I think I read 30%) it does make one wonder if the MNR turns a blind eye towards predator control as they still need a method of control to keep deer numbers down. Those MWU's with extra tags are areas where they need to cull a greater number of deer and if hunters can't do it...then they have to rely on nature.

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I completely agree! I am one of those who wonder....

On another note, while deer numbers were soaring a few years back, the coyote population was in-check with Mange.

When I was a kid (30 years ago) and hunted 30% more than I do now, I recall rarely seen coyotes or tracks back then. Tons of snowshoes, and Jacks. Now in the same areas all I see is predators and evidence of their kills. I've hunted this area for years and every year I see more yotes.

Twelve years ago I've semi retired my hare hunting gear and purchased a very good varmint rifle.
I hunt them every chance I get. And I am successful in taking a few, but my son and I are only the few that keep the predator population in check.

More coyote hunters are needed.

The math is simple, less coyotes equals more game.

If that female yote was taken out the year before, that would be 11 fawns growing to be mature doe/bucks. Some of those fawns were does and could of produced more deer.

Now her pups will grow and take more deer/hares and other animals.

Instead of talking about cutting back the gun season for deer, let's do our part in limiting the amount of predators.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Attachment 34254Our deer are sleeping good tonight!!! Snared 7 so far off just 2 pieces of private land.

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Way to Go!

Thank You for contributing your efforts in deer management!

I hope they keep "taking a blind eye" to Coyote management. Southern Ontario farmers love us. Now,if we could just get the MNRF off this Algonquin Wolf bullshyte and reverse their banned hunting and trapping zone restrictions,we'd really be doing something about predator control.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redd foxx

For decades the mnr (including Bain) managed deer yards for wintering deer. They snowshoed, snowmobiled and during periods of heavy snow depths, bulldozed trails to make it easier for deer to travel and access for the purposes of the winter deer feeding program. Workers went in and cut trees to allow access to browse. In summer they went in and clear cut areas so new growth would generate providing browse for the deer.

These activities have stopped. The deer yards now grow naturally and I think are maturing to the point where they are very limiting in the amount of feed available to the large influx of deer that migrate into them because there is limited new undergrowth in mature forests. Add to that the practise of selective logging and quickly putting out forest fires and the forest is possibly overmaturing meaning less new growth for deer browse.

This all helps lead to the limiting of deer populations during periods of extreme winter conditions in my opinion. Along with the affect of predators, dogs at large, hunting, disease, loss of habitat due to human encroachment and road kill.....it's a tough life for the critters .today

---

This post does make a lot of sense but it only helps to explain the decline in deer that use big traditional yarding areas. What's happening to the rest of the population?

I'm convinced that my little corner of the province is currently experiencing the perfect blend of already reduced numbers from two or three years too many of additional tags, too many coyotes and just enough snow, freezing rain and crust during the winter to make life difficult for deer and easier for coyotes.

On the bright side, the coyote hunting should be great this winter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GW11

I'm convinced that my little corner of the province is currently experiencing the perfect blend of already reduced numbers from two or three years too many of additional tags, too many coyotes and just enough snow, freezing rain and crust during the winter to make life difficult for deer and easier for coyotes.

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I'm also convinced, the same is true in my little corner (Eastern Ont).

What is interesting is that when I sat and talked with guys from two different local camps this past season, these are 'brown are down" type camps that are looking to put deer on the pole, so they're not passing on any. But they all insist that they are not seeing deer in any great numbers. However, their camps success rates were in 35-40% range. These guys just don't seem to have adjusted their expectations of hunting since the years when we were grossly overrun with deer and the MNR had to cull them with consecutive years of 5-6 additional tags.

In my own camp, it was the same again this year, most of them weren't seeing deer....BUT what is perplexing is that I hunt in the same bush as them and I saw deer ever time I was out. My trail cams are full of pics of deer...the one below is a daytime pic with 4 deer in a single shot. I shot 3 deer this year and saw a whack more in the same bush that 5 other guys didn't shoot anything.

Scarcity of deer (in my area).....hardly...maybe to high expectations ???

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...psgxj66jtl.jpg

I might add...lots of yotes, but there has always been lots of yotes. My neighbour and I raised sheep here for 20 yrs...yotes have always been around. The numbers never seem to fluctuate much. They don't seem to affect the deer population overall, still lots of deer around. We had yotes here thru those years when the MNR were providing 5-6 additional tags. They had little affect on the overall population.

Had coyotes take down a small buck right in my yard a few years back....it ran to my barn for safety with 1/2 it's back side chewed off. I had to put it down.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...6/DSCF0023.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I might add...lots of yotes, but there has always been lots of yotes. My neighbour and I raised sheep here for 20 yrs...yotes have always been around. The numbers never seem to fluctuate much. They don't seem to affect the deer population overall, still lots of deer around. We had yotes here thru those years when the MNR were providing 5-6 additional tags. They had little affect on the overall population.

Had coytes take down a small buck right in my yard a few years back....it ran to my barn for safety with 1/2 it's back side chewed off. I had to put it down.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...6/DSCF0023.jpg

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It was an absolute rarity to see a coyote around here in the early 2000's. They've been steadily on the increase from then until now and deer have been on a steady decrease. Our deer numbers aren't what yours are in the East. My guess is they've bottomed out here and coyotes have about peaked. We should start to see that turn around now I hope.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I'm also convinced, the same is true in my little corner (Eastern Ont).

What is interesting is that when I sat and talked with guys from two different local camps this past season, these are 'brown are down" type camps that are looking to put deer on the pole, so they're not passing on any. But they all insist that they are not seeing deer in any great numbers. However, their camps success rates were in 35-40% range. These guys just don't seem to have adjusted their expectations of hunting since the years when we were grossly overrun with deer and the MNR had to cull them with consecutive years of 5-6 additional tags.

In my own camp, it was the same again this year, most of them weren't seeing deer....BUT what is perplexing is that I hunt in the same bush as them and I saw deer ever time I was out. My trail cams are full of pics of deer...the one below is a daytime pic with 4 deer in a single shot. I shot 3 deer this year and saw a whack more in the same bush that 5 other guys didn't shoot anything.

Scarcity of deer (in my area).....hardly...maybe to high expectations ???

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...psgxj66jtl.jpg

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Mike - are the other guys hunting over bait? That's one thing I've noticed with bait and trail cams. When you put out bait, you concentrate the deer in a small area - you'll see a lot of deer on your cameras, but if you go a couple of lots over, there are no deer/tracks at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

When you put out bait, you concentrate the deer in a small area - you'll see a lot of deer on your cameras, but if you go a couple of lots over, there are no deer/tracks at all.

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I have cameras that cover front to back on my 100 acres plus 2 cameras on joining properties (300+ acres) that we hunt. I only put bait down at 3 of them to capture who's who and pattern their travel. It's not uncommon to see the same deer at all 5 locations (over 1.5 miles coverage). Some set ups capture unique deer to the area along the river and some are unique on transition trails a mile away by the cash crop fields.

So the bait is really inconsequential, in that it's primarily just to get them to stop at a specific spot. The cams are set up at locations on transition trails from the river/bedding/corn&soya fields. As a camp we push/dog that entire area so the same deer I am capturing on the cams are the same deer that will be moved thru the entire area.

Two of the deer I shot this year at camp were at spots far from the trail cams, but one of the deer was a frequent visitor at one about 1/2 mile away. The 2nd one (one horn) was never captured on any of the cams in the area.

Why the guys don't see them, I don't know. It could be that they, like most guys at hunt camps do little to mask their scent or play the wind. Most of them don't sit for very long, in the stand at 3:30 and out at dark (5:00-5:15 ?) is common. Most sit in stands on fields that don't have deer come till last light, so if they get busted going in, there is no time to recover.

Lots of variables, but I KNOW the deer are there and most of WMU 66a has the same kind of Deer friendly habitat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Scarcity of deer (in my area).....hardly...maybe to high expectations ???

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The high deer numbers that people talk about is based on numbers higher than carrying capacity.

All of the hunters talking about too few deer should chat with some farmers who lost high percentages of crops to deer and to the people who hit them on Ontario roads.

We are probably pretty close to the proper deer numbers now in a lot of Ontario.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

We are probably pretty close to the proper deer numbers now in a lot of Ontario.

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Quote:

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This target comes from the province’s Cervid Ecological Framework;

When deer populations were at their peak in eastern Ontario, deer densities got as high as 12 to 14 deer/km2 in suitable habitat. The 2009 data shows that deer densities have declined to an average of 2.5 deer/km2 in the WMU’s in eastern Ontario. Our target population is from 5 to 8 deer/km2.

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At least in our area the allocation of additional seals has been curtailed for years (since about 2009).

Only recently have the 'antlerless' draws increased to 50% success rates. It would seem the MNR feels we are closer to the correct density in Eastern Ont.

The MNR biologists say 5-8 deer to a km2 or about 150 acres is desired. So in an ideal scenario, a hunt camp with 100 acres, it will have 5-6 deer.... and you only have Buck tags, you only have 2-3 deer (50/50 mix) to hunt. If your camp has 10 guys....not everyone will fill their tags that year.

Guys might complain that deer are scarce..but reality is, they are at the desired density. Back when Deer were 14/km2 and almost every one had a doe tag...all 14 guys could and in most cases did, fill their tags....BUT it was not a desired density and a cull was conducted. Now they complain that there are no deer...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

At least in our area the allocation of additional seals has been curtailed for years (since about 2009).

Only recently have the 'antlerless' draws increased to 50% success rates. It would seem the MNR feels we are closer to the correct density in Eastern Ont.

The MNR biologists say 5-8 deer to a km2 or about 150 acres is desired. So in an ideal scenario, a hunt camp with 100 acres, it will have 5-6 deer.... and you only have Buck tags, you only have 2-3 deer (50/50 mix) to hunt. If your camp has 10 guys....not everyone will fill their tags that year.

Guys might complain that deer are scarce..but reality is, they are at the desired density. Back when Deer were 14/km2 and almost every one had a doe tag...all 14 guys could and in most cases did, fill their tags....BUT it was not a desired density and a cull was conducted. Now they complain that there are no deer...

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15 years since the start of the really high numbers and about 10 since they were destroyed, that makes the majority of guys in their 20s starting out with too high or deer numbers, the bar was set way too high for them out of the gate.

I think we need to get more people into waterfowl hunting, every field should be taking out geese, there is a lot of action in that type of hunting, makes a quiet day in the deer blind welcome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

The high deer numbers that people talk about is based on numbers higher than carrying capacity.

All of the hunters talking about too few deer should chat with some farmers who lost high percentages of crops to deer and to the people who hit them on Ontario roads.

We are probably pretty close to the proper deer numbers now in a lot of Ontario.

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Would 3 deer hit on our local roads since last Oct , in your mind be considered a lot?
Those 3 deer are what the police and roads dept crews around here report.
So we either have a scarcity of deer in our area, confirmed by the local C.O. [very few sightings and road kills], or we have a lot of guys driving around and pouncing on all these road killed deer.

Definitely agree with you guys in that deer numbers are probably back to more normal numbers in much of the province. Yes, a good number of hunters out there now started during the "good old days" and can't accept the idea of one tag/one deer each. My own group has a couple of guys who started late, around 2000 when they were both 25, and they are absolutely flabbergasted at the current situation. They were spoiled from the start.

I believe there are some trouble spots though. Areas where numbers have dipped far below "normal", and I would say that the Peterborough area is definitely one of them. When a retired guy (my Dad) can spend the last couple of seasons in tree stands on multiple properties in multiple WMU'S, archery season included, and not even see a deer, there's a problem. We don't even see deer in the fields while driving the roads during prime time any more. This covers an area from Cavan/Millbrook over to Keene/Otonabee, up to Stoney Lake and back over to Selwyn/Buckhorn.

Over the past couple of years, people are beginning to complain on an almost monthly basis (letters in the paper, news stories, etc.) about coyotes living on golf courses, bike trails and small patches of green space within city limits. Yes, sometimes people need to realize that if they want their yard to back onto green space you have to accept what goes along with it, but this is a relatively new phenomenon here. Why? Because food is getting scarce outside the city and coyotes will hang around the easier pickings like domestic pets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Would 3 deer hit on our local roads since last Oct , in your mind be considered a lot?
Those 3 deer are what the police and roads dept crews around here report.
So we either have a scarcity of deer in our area, confirmed by the local C.O. [very few sightings and road kills], or we have a lot of guys driving around and pouncing on all these road killed deer.

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Where are you located?

There is still around 8000 vehicle-deer collisions in Ontario every year, those are the ones that are reported.

There are not as many but that is because the deer population is down from its high.

They had 5 extra tags in Eastern Ontario due to farmers complaints for deer eating all their crops. Near Lanark they actually had a Fathers Day hunt to try to reduce the numbers, is it better to have all the farmers crops eaten or to have the deer population at the proper carrying capacity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Would 3 deer hit on our local roads since last Oct , in your mind be considered a lot?
Those 3 deer are what the police and roads dept crews around here report.
So we either have a scarcity of deer in our area, confirmed by the local C.O. [very few sightings and road kills], or we have a lot of guys driving around and pouncing on all these road killed deer.

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Ottawa area - along the 417 deer road kills are almost non-existent compared to the mid 2000's when I'd see about one a week during spring/fall. It's rare to see deer standing in fields along the 417 during daylight hours - 10 years ago, seeing 10 or 20 was common. There are no doubt less deer around than 10 years ago - but were there too many back then?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

- but were there too many back then?

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that depends on your point of view ..LOL...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

that depends on your point of view ..LOL...

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...and your point of view depends on whether you are a hunter, a farmer, or a vehicle insurer...

It also depends on how long you've been hunting. If you started hunting in the early 2000's, its a disaster. If you hunted during the 1970's and 1980's, its still pretty good now.

One thing people need to remember is that you can't stockpile deer. When there's lots, if they aren't killed by hunters, they are not going to stay around forever - winter kill, coyotes, cars, CWD (hopefully not up here yet) - they are going to die.

Another thing is that what Ontario has done with deer management is not out of line with some other areas (Michigan, Pennsylvania).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

...and your point of view depends on whether you are a hunter, a farmer, or a vehicle insurer...

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or a husband who's wife travels the 416 at dawn and dusk to work...the less deer in the fields, the less I worry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

Where are you located?

There is still around 8000 vehicle-deer collisions in Ontario every year, those are the ones that are reported.

There are not as many but that is because the deer population is down from its high.

They had 5 extra tags in Eastern Ontario due to farmers complaints for deer eating all their crops. Near Lanark they actually had a Fathers Day hunt to try to reduce the numbers, is it better to have all the farmers crops eaten or to have the deer population at the proper carrying capacity.

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We are in the area of Hamilton,Guelph, Kitchener, Brantford, a once very deer rich area, an area where I would see quite a few road kills during the rut on my way too and from work.
We moved out here in 1977, and during the late 70's through the 80's and 90's used to see deer constantly, but not any more.

I didn't really find the time to hunt deer seriously until about 2005. I couldn't believe the deer numbers in the FErgus/Elora area. I've always hunted just not deer. What contributed to the abundance of deer 15 years ago? Soft winters, lack of tags ...?

Good article on the importance of coyote control during April and May when fawns are being born.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/...yote-save-fawn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DanO

Good article on the importance of coyote control during April and May when fawns are being born.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/...yote-save-fawn

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Unfortunately, as that article states, it has little overall effect:

Quote:

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Coyote removal doesn’t make much of a difference either. A three-year study in South Carolina found that coyote control efforts did boost whitetail fawn survival, but only slightly. Despite intense trapping pressure—coyotes were reduced by 78 percent each year, and at a rate of about four per square mile—their numbers rebounded to pre-trapping levels within just nine months. “About a third of the coyotes in our study areas are transient,” says University of Georgia professor Dr. Karl Miller. “If you shoot a resident coyote, a transient moves in and sets up his own territory pretty quickly.”

That’s not to say that shooting a coyote won’t save a few fawns. Of more importance is to shoot them at the right time of the year—where legal. Miller was involved in various studies that showed higher fawn survival rates in some study areas when management efforts were conducted just prior to the fawning season. However, coyote trapping didn’t help on other sites.

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Well, according to Parks Canada, a lack of predators has caused an over abundance of deer. They are doing a cull in Point Pelee Park. So it would follow that the inverse could be true in some situations - a lack of deer caused by an over abundance of predators.

"They say the population has boomed due to a lack of natural predators such as wolves, bears and cougars, an abundance of leaf canopy and mild winters."

http://www.cp24.com/news/deer-cull-to-begin-in-point-pelee-national-park-on-friday-1.3237230

I picked this info from another forum;
It seems that parts of the U.S. are also complaining about the scarcity of deer.

ILLINOISE, Pike county, once noted for high populations of big deer , now the lack of.
States of Iowa, New Jersey and Wisconsin also complaining about the lack of deer.
State of Michigan, surprisingly, many hunt clubs there have shut down the hunting this past season.

Also both Boone and Crockett, and Pope and Young have stated that in the last few years there have been fewer and fewer large [record book] deer entered into their books, and they are taking a very serious look into this problem.

Just throwing this out there - could there be some sort of unknown deer disease responsible or contributing to the scarcity?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by delmer

Well, according to Parks Canada, a lack of predators has caused an over abundance of deer. They are doing a cull in Point Pelee Park. So it would follow that the inverse could be true in some situations - a lack of deer caused by an over abundance of predators.

"They say the population has boomed due to a lack of natural predators such as wolves, bears and cougars, an abundance of leaf canopy and mild winters."

http://www.cp24.com/news/deer-cull-to-begin-in-point-pelee-national-park-on-friday-1.3237230

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Point Pelee Provincial Park , is relatively small and cannot support a lot of deer.

There has been a "cull hunt " going on there for several years, and has always caused bad feelings from the local hunters as they cannot participate.
The cull is carried out by some Park Officials, and mainly Native hunters from the area reserve, local hunters cannot even apply.

The same applies to Rondeau and Long Point Provincial Parks, when the deer get beyond the carrying capacity of these parks, they have a "cull hunt", Native hunters only.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

ILLINOISE, Pike county, once noted for high populations of big deer , now the lack of.
States of Iowa, New Jersey and Wisconsin also complaining about the lack of deer.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ahuntr300

Just throwing this out there - could there be some sort of unknown deer disease responsible or contributing to the scarcity?

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some reasons:

Quote:

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Illinois is hardly alone in the declining deer harvests across the Midwest over the past few years. Deer numbers have been down in several Midwest states, including Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Missouri, Ohio and both Dakotas. In some regions, winter mortality reduced deer numbers. In other cases, epizootic hemorrhagic disease (EHD) outbreaks across the Heartland continue to affect deer herds in localized locations.

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You have to read more into it than just to say they are 'scarce' , read the article below and get some insight as to why the 'harvest' numbers are down in those states....like this thread has pointed out...lots of reasons for decline, but like they found, the deer populations aren't in trouble and are where, for the most part they should be.

Quote:

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Since 1957, when the modern firearm deer-hunting season first opened, the Illinois deer herd progressively grew through the late 1990s to the point that deer exceeded the carrying capacity of the landscape. To reach management objectives, the IDNR began aggressively managing the deer herd by allocating more hunting opportunities and used hunters as a management tool, with a goal of thinning the deer herd.


The all-time high deer harvest in Illinois took place during the 2005-06 season when 201,209 deer were killed. Since that time, the annual deer harvest has declined as deer-management objectives have been reached. This past season, 20 counties were removed from the late season antlerless deer season.


Some counties are shifting from herd reduction to strategies that maintain or increase deer numbers.
During the 2015 late anterless deer season, 35 counties participated, down from 55 counties the year prior. Counties that are at or below individual population goals for two consecutive years may be removed.
According to the preliminary harvest data from the 2014-15 deer seasons in Illinois, hunting success this past season was very similar to the season prior, but on an overall downward trend. However, hunter success this past season was nearly 25 percent below the 2012 harvest numbers.


What goes unsaid however is that there are still large numbers of whitetail deer in the state, and many hunters were successful this past season. In fact, 51,830 deer were harvested over a three-day span during the first Illinois gun season this past fall. Regardless of whether deer numbers stabilize or even increase from the past few years, Illinois hunters will be able to find deer with a little bit of effort.

[COLOR=#000000]
Read more: http://www.gameandfishmag.com/foreca...#ixzz4VfRfMiLH

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Point Pelee Provincial Park , is relatively small and cannot support a lot of deer.

There has been a "cull hunt " going on there for several years, and has always caused bad feelings from the local hunters as they cannot participate.
The cull is carried out by some Park Officials, and mainly Native hunters from the area reserve, local hunters cannot even apply.

The same applies to Rondeau and Long Point Provincial Parks, when the deer get beyond the carrying capacity of these parks, they have a "cull hunt", Native hunters only.

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Sustenance hunting on First Nation Treaty Land...why would anyone have cause for 'hard feelings' ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ahuntr300

Just throwing this out there - could there be some sort of unknown deer disease responsible or contributing to the scarcity?

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Funny you bring that up. Jaycee mentioned the Hamilton area and I have been living and hunting in Ancaster for the last 14 years and the population is a fraction of what it was compared to just 4 years ago. About 6 years ago while on a February hike in the deer wood close to home I came across a freshly (still warm) aborted deer fetus. I took it home and placed it in a ziplock and put it in the freezer and contacted a biologist with the MNR at the university of Guelph and they wanted me to bring it in ASAP and I did.
Art Timmerman was his name and he was a nice gentleman and very happy that I contacted them and brought in the fetus. I asked that they keep me informed on what they found and he assured that he would.... Nothing but crickets, even after repeated phone calls and emails asking for an update.
I contacted a Veterinarian friend and he advised me that it is VERY rare for a deer to abort a fetus and said that a fetus would normally be re-absorbed into the deer's system if she was under stress from starvation or other factors. He suggested it could be Brucellosis , a disease that affects ungulates but he was not aware of it being found in Ontario except in a wild Bison herd in North western Ontario.
One of the main symptoms of Brucellosis is aborted fetuses and it could be transmitted to humans and I shouldn't of touched it without gloves. In humans it's called undulant fever and can be serious with no real cure but the MNR would still not respond to my requests for info. Any way I didn't contract it but still went for a blood test just to be safe.

Here are some pics from that day.

How I found it
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...aylor/deer.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...ylor/deer3.jpg

Its a boy

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...ylor/deer4.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...ylor/deer5.jpg

Not saying it is the case but if the local deer herd was infected with brucellosis and many does aborted fawns that could be an explanation for the low numbers around the Dundas valley ,Ancaster and Hamilton areas.
Having said that , the population was way to high and is likely closer to the proper carrying capacity and this will likely make for a healthier deer herd.

We found one just like that on a road after a doe had been hit by a car.she lived but dropped her baby on the road.looked just like the one you found

I was watching a few grouse eating crab-apple berries this morning at 7:30 all the while reading this thread. Smiled a bit as I saw movement in the brush just across the street and in front of my driveway. Sure enough it was a doe and her just about 2 fully grown fawns strolling the neighborhood. The mild spell brought them out from wherever they were and certainly do not appear to be yarding. Nice and healthy looking.

I have seen a lot of deer this season and so have others. The population appears to be at a sustainable / normal level based on what I am seeing in this part of the province.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hunter John

Funny you bring that up. Jaycee mentioned the Hamilton area and I have been living and hunting in Ancaster for the last 14 years and the population is a fraction of what it was compared to just 4 years ago. About 6 years ago while on a February hike in the deer wood close to home I came across a freshly (still warm) aborted deer fetus. I took it home and placed it in a ziplock and put it in the freezer and contacted a biologist with the MNR at the university of Guelph and they wanted me to bring it in ASAP and I did.
Art Timmerman was his name and he was a nice gentleman and very happy that I contacted them and brought in the fetus. I asked that they keep me informed on what they found and he assured that he would.... Nothing but crickets, even after repeated phone calls and emails asking for an update.
I contacted a Veterinarian friend and he advised me that it is VERY rare for a deer to abort a fetus and said that a fetus would normally be re-absorbed into the deer's system if she was under stress from starvation or other factors. He suggested it could be Brucellosis , a disease that affects ungulates but he was not aware of it being found in Ontario except in a wild Bison herd in North western Ontario.
One of the main symptoms of Brucellosis is aborted fetuses and it could be transmitted to humans and I shouldn't of touched it without gloves. In humans it's called undulant fever and can be serious with no real cure but the MNR would still not respond to my requests for info. Any way I didn't contract it but still went for a blood test just to be safe.

Here are some pics from that day.

How I found it
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...aylor/deer.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...ylor/deer3.jpg

Its a boy

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...ylor/deer4.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...ylor/deer5.jpg

Not saying it is the case but if the local deer herd was infected with brucellosis and many does aborted fawns that could be an explanation for the low numbers around the Dundas valley ,Ancaster and Hamilton areas.
Having said that , the population was way to high and is likely closer to the proper carrying capacity and this will likely make for a healthier deer herd.

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Wow.....Never seen one before...

good read
my group has noticed a decline in deer up north for the rifle hunt
down south the yotes are crazy there are packs of them and they are not shy
nothing like doing a deer hunt walking in nice and early just to get bullied buy a pack of yotes
the funny thing is when i try to hunt them they never break the bush line

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bellerivercrossbowhunter

coyotes have there place but too many is bad news.

The deer population in 92 is in great shape.
If any cuts need to take place they would be best done to the gun hunt. Leave the archery season alone... :)

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Coyote is an invasive species in Ontario. They do NOT have their place

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yedi

Coyote is an invasive species in Ontario. They do NOT have their place

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Well, get out there and hunt them! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Well, get out there and hunt them! :)

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I don't have the correct firearms unless i want to use my muzzle stuffer. I need to go get a nice little 223 or something

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yedi

I don't have the correct firearms unless i want to use my muzzle stuffer. I need to go get a nice little 223 or something

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

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Just have your mother in law come out with you, when she asks what their names are just tell her they are all named Ward. She will nag them to death.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yedi

I don't have the correct firearms unless i want to use my muzzle stuffer. I need to go get a nice little 223 or something

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

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Do you have a shotgun? That works.

I've lived here for 3 winters now. I haven't seen any deer during the winter except for yesterday. Five healthy looking deer crossed the road next to my house. I'm hoping the recent warm spell has helped the deer overwinter.

Reading an article in OOD last month that mentioned the best time to shoot coyotes if you really want to help newborn deer is during the spring. I do see the odd coyote while turkey hunting. Maybe its time to try out a turkey load on a coyote? The month of May is fawning time so shooting the local coyote might improve fawning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DanO

I've lived here for 3 winters now. I haven't seen any deer during the winter except for yesterday. Five healthy looking deer crossed the road next to my house. I'm hoping the recent warm spell has helped the deer overwinter.

Reading an article in OOD last month that mentioned the best time to shoot coyotes if you really want to help newborn deer is during the spring. I do see the odd coyote while turkey hunting. Maybe its time to try out a turkey load on a coyote? The month of May is fawning time so shooting the local coyote might improve fawning.

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Coyotes do not like 3.5 inch #5, Longbeard XR !!!!! Especially when they sneak up to my decoys !!!

I agree with that. A few have run into my 3 inch federal #5s over the years.