The ‘Pie Plate’ Grouping

I was cleaning out the freezer yesterday and found a Deer heart from a 4 point buck I shot back in 2015. So having just read a recent thread where the term “Pie Plate’ was used it got me to thinking, I wonder if guys realize how accurate that grouping really is.

So here it is….

A 2.5 yr old deer heart on a 10” pie plate;

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps5zbv0jfg.jpg

This is a 1” MOA dot, you can see how small an area that actually is in regards to the heart;

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...psn5g6v4sl.jpg

That is why when guys say 'Pie Plate' is good ...they aren't kidding.

I guess we've all become so used to using rests, 9x scopes and looking at pictures of the 'Bull's Eye' hits with pictures taken from 12" away, that we think that you 'need' to shoot MOA, but reality is even 5" grouping will still hit the heart.

Yes...we should strive to make the best shot possible, but a lot of hunters don't have the opportunity to shot often or desire to become 'snipers'. I know at my camp the pie plate fixed to the post at 50 yds is the benchmark :)

I remember years ago I when I first got my .45 Kentucky patch and ball ML, I posted a pic of the target panel after my first day shooting free hand. I was putting most of the shoots into the black 5’ circle, so I made the comment “at least they’re Pie Plate, good for hunting”. The usual keyboard experts didn't agree.

I still have that old target panel, cut to the size of the pie plate. This comparison of it to the same heart. Makes for a good visual. Easier to see that when the term ‘Pie Plate’ grouping is used, it is in fact kill shot. Especially for larger caliber bullets like a .303, .45 ball or shotgun slugs.


http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...psfdjcudhf.jpg



Back then, I posted that same target paper fixed to the side of my Doe decoy to show the relative size of the vitals on a deer and then put the decoy out at the 50 yd panel to show the actual visual distances to the target with open sights.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...pscc9e26ef.jpg

I can been seen, that the 'kill zone' of the vital area at 50 yds is quite large and a fairly easy to shot with even open sights.


http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps1754a52d.jpg

Something I recommend that all deer hunters try is get off the bench and shoot 3 rounds, standing off-hand, into a pie plate sized target at 100 yards. Trust me, it can be humbling. :ashamed:

Yes. Many people forget that you should always be the best shot you can be. By that I mean...try to have the best groups you can get....with arrow, bullet, or a musket ball. If you normally take shots on game at 100 yards with a rifle, get good out to 200 yards. You will have more confidence for the 100 yards, it may even feel like point blank range. In fact out to 200 yards you can setup most calibres to be point and shoot, because you will be "IN THE PIE PLATE".

So once you have the best groups you can get, just ask yourself if it passes the 6 inch circle test( the size of the bottom of your 10 inch pie plate). If so then you should be making humane kills on any thing bigger the a coyote( coyotes need the 4 inch plastic lid test).

I guess it all depends on how a grouping was obtained. If someone is shooting from a bench with a solid rest and is getting 4 or 5" groups at 100 yards, in my opinion, that is marginal for a 100 yard shot under "field" conditions (without a solid rest), because those groups will open up considerably under field or hunting conditions. If someone is getting that same group shooting offhand or with an improvised rest, I'd say that is pretty good!

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Originally Posted by rf2

I guess it all depends on how a grouping was obtained. If someone is shooting from a bench with a solid rest and is getting 4 or 5" groups at 100 yards, in my opinion, that is marginal for a 100 yard shot under "field" conditions (without a solid rest), because those groups will open up considerably under field or hunting conditions. If someone is getting that same group shooting offhand or with an improvised rest, I'd say that is pretty good!

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All the better reason to sight in off a bench and shoot in field conditions, learn your gun and shoot it, don't just sight it in every Oct for a 1 week season then leave it for the year.

If my gun my shooting "minute of pie plate" I wouldn't use it for hunting. Sure it may kill a deer every shot but that's not good enough for me. I like my guns shooting dead on where I aim....then when I miss I know it's my fault and not the gun..


See so many guys with poor shooting technique or just don't have their gun set up right and shoot a 8" group at 100 yards. "Good enough to kill a deer" then they pack it up and don't shoot again until an animal is in front of them. Then wonder why they wound game or miss. Blame it on the cartridge or bad scope.

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Originally Posted by SongDog

If my gun is shooting "minute of pie plate" I wouldn't use it for hunting. Sure it may kill a deer every shot but that's not good enough for me. I like my guns shooting dead on where I aim....then when I miss I know it's my fault and not the gun..


See so many guys with poor shooting technique or just don't have their gun set up right and shoot a 8" group at 100 yards. "Good enough to kill a deer" then they pack it up and don't shoot again until an animal is in front of them. Then wonder why they wound game or miss. Blame it on the cartridge or bad scope.

Piss me off and half the reason I hunt by myself most of the time.

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Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Fox

All the better reason to sight in off a bench and shoot in field conditions, learn your gun and shoot it, don't just sight it in every Oct for a 1 week season then leave it for the year.

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??????

I hate the pie plate analogy as it's only true for a perfect broadside shot. If the deer I'd quartering in any way that pie plate quickly becomes a tall oval.

I had a recent varmint rifle that would only shoot a 5 inch group from the bench. When I called Browning they said they only guarantee 5".

I sent it back at the speed of light. 5" grouping off the bench is a ridiculously poor group size for any use other than making noise.

Everyone should learn how to take an improvised rest. I've often seen shooters standing beside a tree or shooting above a log when they could have made a steady shot from a rest. Most of these hunters claim that they don't need the advantage, yet they still miss that killing shot.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I remember years ago I when I first got my .45 Kentucky patch and ball ML, I posted a pic of the target panel after my first day shooting free hand. I was putting most of the shoots into the black 5’ circle, so I made the comment “at least they’re Pie Plate, good for hunting”. The usual keyboard experts didn't agree.

I still have that old target panel, cut to the size of the pie plate. This comparison of it to the same heart. Makes for a good visual. Easier to see that when the term ‘Pie Plate’ grouping is used, it is in fact kill shot. Especially for larger caliber bullets like a .303, .45 ball or shotgun slugs.


http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...psfdjcudhf.jpg



Back then, I posted that same target paper fixed to the side of my Doe decoy to show the relative size of the vitals on a deer and then put the decoy out at the 50 yd panel to show the actual visual distances to the target with open sights.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...pscc9e26ef.jpg

I can been seen, that the 'kill zone' of the vital area at 50 yds is quite large and a fairly easy to shot with even open sights.


http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps1754a52d.jpg

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Really enjoyed the pics and post... Pretty cool to see
Thanks for sharing it-put things into perspective.

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Originally Posted by patvetzal

Everyone should learn how to take an improvised rest. I've often seen shooters standing beside a tree or shooting above a log when they could have made a steady shot from a rest. Most of these hunters claim that they don't need the advantage, yet they still miss that killing shot.

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When I started shooting, I seldom shot freehand. If there was a tree nearby I was using it. Somehow, I've quit doing that over the years and never thought twice about it. Good advice.

Exactly a rest makes a hell of a difference. Shoot as much as you can. You will only get better. I enjoy my time shooting.

Five inch group being good enough? - not in my opinion.

One thing with heavy recoil rifles - how you hold your rifle on a rest may/will affect your point of impact.

Re: the pie plate sized target - If guys can hit that shooting quickly - its good enough for me.

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Originally Posted by ninepointer

Something I recommend that all deer hunters try is get off the bench and shoot 3 rounds, standing off-hand, into a pie plate sized target at 100 yards. Trust me, it can be humbling. :ashamed:

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Each and every time I have folks out who are sighting in for hunting season. We start at 25M, out to 100M, and then once dialed in and confident that the rifle is doing it's job, I then take the shooters back to the 50, and make them shoot 3 shots, prone, kneeling / sitting, and off hand.....

If they're not shooting where they need to be we re-do the process beginning back at the 25, without the rest.

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Originally Posted by fratri

Really enjoyed the pics and post... Pretty cool to see
Thanks for sharing it-put things into perspective.

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X2 good posting!

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Five inch group being good enough? - not in my opinion.

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That's the 'inside the box' mindset. On that target panel, I don't see a 5" grouping.. I see 4 separate shots that all hit the 5" target. The black is the bull...not just the 1" center. That is the meaning behind the 'Pie Plate'.

In a hunting scenario it's the 1st shot that counts...so if you can hit the pie plate, it's good, you don't have to hit dead center of the heart, anywhere on it will kill the deer.

Here's another comparitive relationship pic; I use old propane tanks on the range because they, not only provide positive audio feedback (sound) of a hit, they also fairly closely represent the vital area of a deer as you can see.

If you look at the pic of the decoy at 50yds, you'll see my tanks on the left at 100 yd and one hanging on tripod by a bungy cord at 200 yds. I use these for visual and audio feedback when shooting. They are excellent targets for practice and fairly closely represent the 10" kill zone of a deer.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...psknbqrtli.jpg

Love the music in this video....lol
Audio and visual feedback that you are in the kill zone.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-3k7RLv5oI

Yes a theme song for sure...should be titled "Here Hold my Beer"

just a disclaimer....you can't blow up a propane tank by shooting them...unless you use incendiary rounds...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FHTXwpVMvs

About half the deer I have shot with a rifle or shotgun have been while resting my left elbow on my left knee while sitting on a camp chair, stool or permanent tree stand seat. Maybe a quarter were offhand and the rest were from shooting sticks or other positions, such as sitting on a chair but twisting sideways without a rest.

Pie plate accuracy would have been good enough for most, but not all.

I try to get my guns grouping as accurately as possible from the bench, but from most field positions (aside from shooting sticks or a prone backpack rest), I would be fine with 5" groups at 100 yards.

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Originally Posted by ninepointer

Something I recommend that all deer hunters try is get off the bench and shoot 3 rounds, standing off-hand, into a pie plate sized target at 100 yards. Trust me, it can be humbling. :ashamed:

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100% agree

Great post. The pie plate has been the standard for many years at my camp. I've seen many shooters satisfied with their capabilities get humbled in a hurry when you take away their 'lead sled' or other rest.

I don't spend time at shooting ranges, but I've never seen someone shoot MOA groups without a rest. If your hunting style involves scenarios where you might not have a rest, you need to know your capabilities without one. Most folks I hunt deer with don't use scopes and don't kill deer from fancy shooting benches. If you can shoot MOA accuracy in real hunting conditions, that's awesome. For the rest of us, the pie plate is still the benchmark!

you all may have figured out I like visual aids....habit after years of being an instructor.....LOL...

Which shot in this 5+" group will be fatal (stop the heart) the deer at 100 yds ?

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...psxi69mgmu.jpg

Are we to assume that the angle of the tack is also the trajectory of the projectile?

If so, then a shot in the right or left ventricle would be mush and so would the right and left atrium.
Not sure if the shot in the apex would cause the deer to die at 100 yards but it sure would be in extreme discomfort.

Of course, the ballistic shock and mushrooming bullet of a large caliber would prove fatal in most cases in any of those shots.

"Your mileage may vary"....lol

I would say or guess all of them would. I have no scientific proof but would guess any heart shot would bleed out within 100yards.
Enjoying the nice (civil) discussion.

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Originally Posted by impact

Of course, the ballistic shock and mushrooming bullet of a large caliber would prove fatal in most cases in any of those shots.

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LOL....the hydrostatic shock created by a soft lead .50 cal ML round puree's the whole heart...looks like Ketchup.

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Originally Posted by impact

If so, then a shot in the right or left ventricle would be mush and so would the right and left atrium.
Not sure if the shot in the apex would cause the deer to die at 100 yards but it sure would be in extreme discomfort.

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If I didn't know better I'd swear you knew something about the heart, like you did it for a living..imagine that...LOL....

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Originally Posted by MikePal

If I didn't know better I'd swear you knew something about the heart, like you did it for a living..imagine that...LOL....

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Shooting deer in the heart does not pay my bills but it is a passion...ROTFLMAO

I will have to try and remember that at the camp next year when somebody asks where did you shoot the deer....Well I was aiming for the left ventricle but the way it dropped I thought I hit the apex but turns out the bullet passed through the right atrium! LOL

You can kill a deer with a blunderbuss and a handful of rocks if you shoot them close enough, and if that was all I had and I needed to eat, I guess that would be adequate. All these pie plate pictures do is allow guys to think that mediocrity in killing is satisfactory. Why should you be satisfied with a rifle that shoots a grouping of 5-6 inches. There are very few modern rifles that can't be improved upon to at least shoot a 2 inch group, unless the barrels are shot out or something is grievously wrong. A gun that is capable of an accurate grouping from a bench will shoot accurately to point of aim off of the bench, or as accurately as the shooter can hold it steady. A rifle that sprays bullets unreliably might put your minute of pie plate bullet into the deer's foreleg when you where aiming for the chest in the hands of an unpracticed shooter under field conditions ( the same shooter likely to possess the pieplate gun). Even my rifled barrel shotgun will hold a 2 inch group at 100 yards from a bench, why would anyone satisfy themselves with less? It's been my experience that people that don't take the time or effort to improve the accuracy of their rifles, or improve their own shooting skills don't take the same care with the game they hunt! your mileage may vary!

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Originally Posted by diverduck

You can kill a deer with a blunderbuss and a handful of rocks if you shoot them close enough, and if that was all I had and I needed to eat, I guess that would be adequate. All these pie plate pictures do is allow guys to think that mediocrity in killing is satisfactory. Why should you be satisfied with a rifle that shoots a grouping of 5-6 inches. There are very few modern rifles that can't be improved upon to at least shoot a 2 inch group, unless the barrels are shot out or something is grievously wrong. A gun that is capable of an accurate grouping from a bench will shoot accurately to point of aim off of the bench, or as accurately as the shooter can hold it steady. A rifle that sprays bullets unreliably might put your minute of pie plate bullet into the deer's foreleg when you where aiming for the chest in the hands of an unpracticed shooter under field conditions ( the same shooter likely to possess the pieplate gun). Even my rifled barrel shotgun will hold a 2 inch group at 100 yards from a bench, why would anyone satisfy themselves with less? It's been my experience that people that don't take the time or effort to improve the accuracy of their rifles, or improve their own shooting skills don't take the same care with the game they hunt! your mileage may vary!

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Here is the other side of the coin, tons of guys can shoot dime sized 5 shot groups on the range at 100 yards but cannot hit a deer in the vitals at 50.

The pie plate is an ethical area to kill a deer in a very short period of time, if you hit that spot every single time then you will kill that deer every single time.

You are entirely missing the point of the post, he was not stating that pie plate is as good as your gun needs to be, it is that pie the pie plate size is a good representation of the vitals with some room and when shooting in field conditions hitting that pie plate is 100 acceptable to making a clean kill.

Nobody shoots 2" 200 yard groups standing free hand with the adrenaline of a buck coming out of the bush with a split second to take the shot, they are shooting for the vitals, not the hair behind the front shoulder or a black bullseye superimposed on the fur.

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Originally Posted by Fox

You are entirely missing the point of the post, he was not stating that pie plate is as good as your gun needs to be, it is that pie the pie plate size is a good representation of the vitals with some room and when shooting in field conditions hitting that pie plate is 100 acceptable to making a clean kill.

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Maybe Mike should clarify what he means, because I don't think that diverduck is entirely missing the point. Mike says:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I guess we've all become so used to using rests, 9x scopes and looking at pictures of the 'Bull's Eye' hits with pictures taken from 12" away, that we think that you 'need' to shoot MOA, but reality is even 5" grouping will still hit the heart.

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If Mike means that a 5" grouping off a bench with a proper rest is good enough, I would disagree, and diverduck's assessment seems correct to me. However, if he means that a 5" grouping off hand at 100 yards is good enough, I would agree. It is very difficult to shoot such a group offhand at 100 yards, and although I can shoot MOA groups off a bench, I doubt I could shoot a 5" group offhand at 100 yards. I doubt that many hunters could do so. That being said, I would hope that most people with a reasonable amount of shooting experience would recognize this and look for some sort of improvised rest to shoot at a deer at that distance. With a decently stable improvised rest, a 5" group at 100 yards is not difficult, assuming the gun shoots better than that off the bench. If all it can do under ideal conditions is 5" at 100 yards, well then you are SOL.

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Originally Posted by Fox

You are entirely missing the point of the post, he was not stating that pie plate is as good as your gun needs to be, it is that pie the pie plate size is a good representation of the vitals with some room and when shooting in field conditions hitting that pie plate is 100 acceptable to making a clean kill.

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Quoting MikePal

"[COLOR=#333333]That is why when guys say 'Pie Plate' is good ...they aren't kidding.

[COLOR=#333333]I guess we've all become so used to using rests, 9x scopes and looking at pictures of the 'Bull's Eye' hits with pictures taken from 12" away, that we think that you 'need' to shoot MOA, but reality is even 5" grouping will still hit the heart."


The above is a direct excerpt from Mike's original post. I don't think I've missed the point at all. He basically stated a 5 inch gun is good enough to take into the field because it will still hit the heart. I agree, in the hand of an excellent shot a gun that groups 5 inches is probably just fine. But most excellent shots won't own a gun that only does 5 inches unless its a collector piece, or has a great deal of sentimental value. Even an average shot such as myself, who spends a bit of time to be practiced in the art of killing game won't waste much time on a 5 inch gun. I'd much rather shoot a gun that does 1.5 inch because the technology is there, and it makes my average but practiced shooting under field conditions that much more accurate at the end of the day. Once again, it's been my experience that those satisfied with a gun that shoots a 5 inch group typically don't spend much time practicing with their guns, under range or field conditions, and that a more accurate firearm may help them to actually put the bullet in the pieplate when their adrenaline is pumping when the deer walks out, instead of blowing off a foreleg or putting one in the gut. I don't see the point in promoting mediocrity in hunting. The end game is killing, at least extend game animals the courtesy of doing it well.

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Originally Posted by diverduck

You can kill a deer with a blunderbuss and a handful of rocks if you shoot them close enough, and if that was all I had and I needed to eat, I guess that would be adequate. All these pie plate pictures do is allow guys to think that mediocrity in killing is satisfactory. Why should you be satisfied with a rifle that shoots a grouping of 5-6 inches. There are very few modern rifles that can't be improved upon to at least shoot a 2 inch group, unless the barrels are shot out or something is grievously wrong. A gun that is capable of an accurate grouping from a bench will shoot accurately to point of aim off of the bench, or as accurately as the shooter can hold it steady. A rifle that sprays bullets unreliably might put your minute of pie plate bullet into the deer's foreleg when you where aiming for the chest in the hands of an unpracticed shooter under field conditions ( the same shooter likely to possess the pieplate gun). Even my rifled barrel shotgun will hold a 2 inch group at 100 yards from a bench, why would anyone satisfy themselves with less? It's been my experience that people that don't take the time or effort to improve the accuracy of their rifles, or improve their own shooting skills don't take the same care with the game they hunt! your mileage may vary!

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You said it perfectly.

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Originally Posted by rf2

Maybe Mike should clarify what he means, because I don't think that diverduck is entirely missing the point. Mike says:


If Mike means that a 5" grouping off a bench with a proper rest is good enough, I would disagree, and diverduck's assessment seems correct to me. However, if he means that a 5" grouping off hand at 100 yards is good enough, I would agree. It is very difficult to shoot such a group offhand at 100 yards, and although I can shoot MOA groups off a bench, I doubt I could shoot a 5" group offhand at 100 yards. I doubt that many hunters could do so. That being said, I would hope that most people with a reasonable amount of shooting experience would recognize this and look for some sort of improvised rest to shoot at a deer at that distance. With a decently stable improvised rest, a 5" group at 100 yards is not difficult, assuming the gun shoots better than that off the bench. If all it can do under ideal conditions is 5" at 100 yards, well then you are SOL.

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If you are only shooting from a bench on that deer then 5in grouping off a bench would be quite fine.

If your gun groups 5" at 300 yards with a bipod would you be safe to use that bipod rested rifle for deer at 300 yards or do you need a rifle that shoots 1" at 300 yards to be acceptable?

If you are shooting off a bench and your sights and or fundamentals only allow a 5 inch groups @ 100 yds, one is better off finding a better gun or a load and spending one's money and trigger time improving one's shooting skills.

Shooting consistent 5" groups @ 100 yds is not equivalent in any measure with shooting the same grouping size @ 300 yds.
It is why shooting a 5" group offhand @ 100 yds is different than a 5" group off of a rest.

The results of poor marksmanship, a poor rifle and a poor load only gets worse at distance from muzzle.

A 5 " group off of a bipod@300 yds is equivalent to ~1.5@ 100 yds. 1" group @ 300 yds is equivalent to ~.3"@100 yds.

However, a 5" group@ 100 yds is equivalent to ~15" @ 300 yds, whether from a bench or off hand. That would miss many deer vital zone completely and many whole deer completely.

I think some of you guys are misunderstanding the idea I was trying convey. Fox seems to have a grasp of the concept.

The ‘Pie Plate'…is a 10” representation of the vitals and the pic, with the heart on a pie plate, is a visual aid to show why a shot inside the 10” vital area is fatal.

The tacks pinned into the heart illustrate that regardless of where you hit that heart…even 5” off dead centre ...it will be fatal. The point being, the amount of accuracy required to make a fatal shoot is not limited MOA accuracy.

The whole idea of this thread was to point out that shooting ‘Pie Plate’ is in fact as accurate and as fatal as MOA accuracy. A kill shot is a kill shot…no such thing as ‘more dead’.

As I said in my first post: “we should strive to make the best shot possible, but a lot of hunters don't have the opportunity to shot often or desire to become 'snipers'.”

To take what has been discussed and say :

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“All these pie plate pictures do is allow guys to think that mediocrity in killing is satisfactory. Why should you be satisfied with a rifle that shoots a grouping of 5-6 inches.”

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is reflective off not understanding what is trying to be conveyed.

As always, shot placement is paramount and the assumption is made that the shot is actually hitting the vital area on a deer. The discussion wasn’t meant to include all the 'what if' variables and scenarios of guys not being able to hit the vitals. I’m sure even the average guy can hit a ‘Pie Plate’ at 100 yds using a supported barrel.

Simply…if you can hit the vitals..inside the proverbial 10” Pie Plate…the shot will be fatal.

Know your limit and hunt within it!

Shooting MOA groups from your bench is great, but it doesn't mean squat unless you shoot deer from the same bench. Practice in real-world conditions to know how you shoot in real-world conditions. If you can consistently hit the pie plate without a rest at a given distance, you are good to shoot a deer at that distance.

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Originally Posted by skypilot

If you are shooting off a bench and your sights and or fundamentals only allow a 5 inch groups @ 100 yds, one is better off finding a better gun or a load and spending one's money and trigger time improving one's shooting skills.

Shooting consistent 5" groups @ 100 yds is not equivalent in any measure with shooting the same grouping size @ 300 yds.
It is why shooting a 5" group offhand @ 100 yds is different than a 5" group off of a rest.

The results of poor marksmanship, a poor rifle and a poor load only gets worse at distance from muzzle.

A 5 " group off of a bipod@300 yds is equivalent to ~1.5@ 100 yds. 1" group @ 300 yds is equivalent to ~.3"@100 yds.

However, a 5" group@ 100 yds is equivalent to ~15" @ 300 yds, whether from a bench or off hand. That would miss many deer vital zone completely and many whole deer completely.

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Again, totally missing the point of the thread and my comments. If 5" is a satisfactory 300 yard group for shooting a deer at 300 yards then a 5" group at 10 yards is a satisfactory group to kill that deer at 10 yards, plain and simple. Use whatever method you want, a running deer at 10 yards or a standing one at 300, you hit the pie plate and the deer is dead, period, end of story, who cares what the gun does off the bench.

I have said for years that if one wishes to be a better big game hunter, time spend chasing small game with a 22 or air rifle will improve your shooting. A small game hunter only has a 1 to 1 1/2 inch target most times. Every shot he takes has to be with in a one inch group at ranges from 25 to 75 or more yards.

But the fact remains if you set up your big game rifle for to smallest tightest groups you can shoot of the rest and still put a group in the five/six inch circle without a rest you will humanely take game.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

I have said for years that if one wishes to be a better big game hunter, time spend chasing small game with a 22 or air rifle will improve your shooting.

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Growing up on a farm, we used to use pettet guns with open sights to shot chickens and rats...you had to make head shots to kill them. Took a lot of skill and we honed it over the summer months.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Again, totally missing the point of the thread and my comments. If 5" is a satisfactory 300 yard group for shooting a deer at 300 yards then a 5" group at 10 yards is a satisfactory group to kill that deer at 10 yards, plain and simple. Use whatever method you want, a running deer at 10 yards or a standing one at 300, you hit the pie plate and the deer is dead, period, end of story, who cares what the gun does off the bench.

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You are simply stating again the vital zone area at 100 and 300 yds which nobody is really arguing. Having a gun and the ability to place a kill shot or shots of a said combo with 5" grouping capability IN that vital zone @100 under hunting condition is really the debate.

If you feel that is good enough for you give 'er.

If anything like a limb or branch obstructs any of your 5" vital zone or even the view of that zone, a 5" grouping combo of you and gun now presents an interesting dilemma.

I wish I had known you were so interested in 5" grouping rifles, I would have offered you the Browning before I sent it back.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Growing up on a farm, we used to use pettet guns with open sights to shot chickens and rats...you had to make head shots to kill them. Took a lot of skill and we honed it over the summer months.

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Great practice. I have sat many hours in the aisle of the barn waiting on the vet at night and shooting rats/mice with a 22 pistol.

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Originally Posted by skypilot

Having a gun and the ability to place a kill shot or shots of a said combo with 5" grouping capability IN that vital zone @100 under hunting condition is really the debate.

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You're still not grasping it..the target at 300yds is 10" ..a shot anywhere on the 'pie plate' is a kill shot..if you aim at dead centre and you bullet hits 5" away...it's still a kill shot...

Mike, if you are happy with a gun/human combo that shoots at best 5" groups off a rest that's ok.

My standards are higher.

If you can place 4or 5 in a 5" group @ 100yd off hand, that is ok with me also and decent shooting.

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Originally Posted by skypilot

If you can place 4or 5 in a 5" group @ 100yd off hand, that is ok with me also and decent shooting.

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We all agree on that and I think that was the original point of the thread. 5in off the bench and I would also sell the rifle to Fox. Lol. Just funnin with ya Fox.

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Originally Posted by Hunter John

We all agree on that and I think that was the original point of the thread. 5in off the bench and I would also sell the rifle to Fox. Lol. Just funnin with ya Fox.

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Sounds good to me.

I read once years ago if one could put around 6-8 in a pie plate off hand at 100m you were Olympic material with the proper further training.

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Originally Posted by skypilot

My standards are higher

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You and me both, but that's not the point...the common schlup who dusts off the rifle and walks out behind the camp and puts 3-4 rounds into a Pie Plate on a fence post 50 yds out and says 'good to go'...is not wrong....because if he hits it, he's 'Pie Plate' accurate and it represents a kill shot.

He doesn't have to put all 3-4 round withing an inch of center (our standard) .....he merely has to hit the vitals to kill the deer.

Remember, the mission for most hunters is to kill a deer not prove how close to the center of the heart they can hit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hunter John

We all agree on that and I think that was the original point of the thread. 5in off the bench and I would also sell the rifle to Fox. Lol. Just funnin with ya Fox.

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Ha ha ha, never hunted with anything that had a 5" 100 yard group but bench grouping has absolutely nothing to do with this thread at all, it has to do with the actual vitals of a deer at any range, any, not MOA, not at 100 yards, at any range if you hit the pie plate you will kill that deer.

If you can only hit that pie plate and 100 yards free hand and not at 200 yards free hand you should not in my opinion shoot at a deer free hand at 200 yards.

Another perfectly reasonable thread completely derailed for no reason.

If one has a rifle/skill that will only hit somewhere inside a pie plate @100 yds, that is evidently up to the individual.

Again, if anything, I mean anything like a limb/branch/another deer/ or the deer isn't perfectly still and in broad daylight and broadsided/etc. it is going to present an issue of hit probability. More so if the deer is running or you are shooting down at an angle from a 20 ft tree stand or uphill.

Most responsible, ethical hunters use a rest to evaluate the rifle's accuracy potential combined with there ability BEFORE they attempt to hunt or shoot a deer @ 100 yds. That is why the bench/rests were mentioned.

True a deer's vitals are the same size to infinity, however the accuracy of the gun/shooter combo and the ability to place that round on target every time is relevant.

If 5" @ 100 yds is acceptable, the Browning BAR Shortrac I sent back might have interested some.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Another perfectly reasonable thread completely derailed for no reason.

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What has been derailed? I see two different interpretations of accuracy. Two different schools of thought. Neither one are wrong. So far it's also been a reasonable discussion.

I honestly don't think there are two sides to this story. I think we all agree, but due to the idiosyncrasies of the internet we feel like we are arguing.

If you can get a 5" grouping under the circumstances you hunt in, you can ethically pull the trigger on a deer. The vitals are bigger.

Due to several disabilities, my dad can't do much better than a 5" grouping at 100 yds with a rest and a scope. He's still a young man, but his broken spine limiting his mobility and his poor eye sight combine to limit his abilities to shoot.

My father knows his abilities. In practical situations, he shoots at a maximum of about 70 yards, and always with a rest. He knows his limits and hunts within them.

Which of us will speak out to say he is not fit to hunt? Who wants to speak up to say the man who's spine was crushed in an accident limiting his shooting ability should not be allowed to hunt deer?

My bet is we all agree that a pie plate is good enough.

My shotguns with slugs and big bore rifle while shooting free hand get the pie plate test like MikePal alluded to because they're used as short range firearms,exclusively. The mediums (.243Win,.270Win and .30-06Sprg.) get bench ranged at 1MOA@200M because they're all used for long range across swamps and ponds and Hydro right-of-ways where 150-250M shots are the norm. With 10 guys and one adult Moose tag (if we're lucky) and Bullwinkle steps between two giant balsams across Dead Man's swamp at 200M and that's the only shot I'm likely to get and I want the bullet to go between rib 3 and 4,it'll go right where I put it. With smaller cals for Coyotes across pastures,guaranteed they won't get far,either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by benjhind

I honestly don't think there are two sides to this story. I think we all agree, but due to the idiosyncrasies of the internet we feel like we are arguing.

If you can get a 5" grouping under the circumstances you hunt in, you can ethically pull the trigger on a deer. The vitals are bigger.

Due to several disabilities, my dad can't do much better than a 5" grouping at 100 yds with a rest and a scope. He's still a young man, but his broken spine limiting his mobility and his poor eye sight combine to limit his abilities to shoot.

My father knows his abilities. In practical situations, he shoots at a maximum of about 70 yards, and always with a rest. He knows his limits and hunts within them.

Which of us will speak out to say he is not fit to hunt? Who wants to speak up to say the man who's spine was crushed in an accident limiting his shooting ability should not be allowed to hunt deer?

My bet is we all agree that a pie plate is good enough.

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I would agree and it's great that your Dad can still enjoy deer hunting after such an accident. Great post.

I don't get it???? Why in the world would anybody shoot "free hand "
when they have a sling to anchor the shot and the other arm for more support.

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Originally Posted by Greenhorn

I don't get it???? Why in the world would anybody shoot "free hand "
when they have a sling to anchor the shot and the other arm for more support.

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I sure hope you have hunted before making that comment.

The carry sling is not the same setup as the sling support for shooting.

"Free hand" shooting is the norm for many shooting situations, split second shooting situations where finding and setting up on a rest is impossible as well as wrapping your arm in a sling.

It is actually very easy to kill a deer with a free hand shot, that vital area is quiet large, do the same at the same range with a groundhog or a squirrel then you start running into more issues.

Bring your rifle over top of the target, use the weight of the gun to bring the sights into the vitals and squeeze.

I have never shot at a deer with a rest, never had that opportunity, always at the wrong spot or as I am going in to or out of the stand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greenhorn

I don't get it???? Why in the world would anybody shoot "free hand "
when they have a sling to anchor the shot and the other arm for more support.

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It happenened to me this year. I walked out of bush after I missed a buck because I hit a tree on a very difficult shot around the tree of my tree stand. Buck bounced out across field and halted after I made a noise. Thought this guy was gone for good. I had about a split second to make the shot and no time for a rest or screw with sling or anything else, just a proper form freehand.

He he dropped on the spot at 191 yards....

That is and probably will be the best shot I ever make on a deer.

Not optimal but perfectly doable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

It happenened to me this year. I walked out of bush after I missed a buck because I hit a tree on a very difficult shot around the tree of my tree stand. Buck bounced out across field and halted after I made a noise. Thought this guy was gone for good. I had about a split second to make the shot and no time for a rest or screw with sling or anything else, just a proper form freehand.

He he dropped on the spot at 191 yards....

That is and probably will be the best shot I ever make on a deer.

Not optimal but perfectly doable.

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You probably practice shooting stand and shooting quick too, it is all about practice.

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Originally Posted by Fox

I sure hope you have hunted before making that comment.

The carry sling is not the same setup as the sling support for shooting.

"Free hand" shooting is the norm for many shooting situations, split second shooting situations where finding and setting up on a rest is impossible as well as wrapping your arm in a sling.

It is actually very easy to kill a deer with a free hand shot, that vital area is quiet large, do the same at the same range with a groundhog or a squirrel then you start running into more issues.

Bring your rifle over top of the target, use the weight of the gun to bring the sights into the vitals and squeeze.

I have never shot at a deer with a rest, never had that opportunity, always at the wrong spot or as I am going in to or out of the stand.

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I guess it comes to experience. I,ve been hunting deer for 51 years. Kept records for 8 years and killed 48 deer in Ontario and Michigans. I never shoot at running deer ,I stop them with real deer sound from my voice. In the reserves, I was one of the top shooters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

It happenened to me this year. I walked out of bush after I missed a buck because I hit a tree on a very difficult shot around the tree of my tree stand. Buck bounced out across field and halted after I made a noise. Thought this guy was gone for good. I had about a split second to make the shot and no time for a rest or screw with sling or anything else, just a proper form freehand.

He he dropped on the spot at 191 yards....

That is and probably will be the best shot I ever make on a deer.

Not optimal but perfectly doable.

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any deer will drop when you hit them in the spline. So what your really saying is you were high.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greenhorn

I guess it comes to experience. I,ve been hunting deer for 51 years. Kept records for 8 years and killed 48 deer in Ontario and Michigans. I never shoot at running deer ,I stop them with real deer sound from my voice. In the reserves, I was one of the top shooters.

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This is quite amusing!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greenhorn

I guess it comes to experience. I,ve been hunting deer for 51 years. Kept records for 8 years and killed 48 deer in Ontario and Michigans. I never shoot at running deer ,I stop them with real deer sound from my voice. In the reserves, I was one of the top shooters.

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Good for you, does not mean a thing when you do not experience the same type of hunting situations. I have called at deer and they sped up. When walking back to the house or the camp and I see a deer I have a split second to get the sights on it and pull that trigger, it has nothing to do at all with a running deer, some areas are so tight that the deer takes a step and they are gone.

It only takes about 1/2 second to secure the sling for a better support. That's something to practise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greenhorn

any deer will drop when you hit them in the spline. So what your really saying is you were high.

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What an assumption!

Lol no it was a textbook quartering shot not in the spine. The second deer this year never took a step either, heart lacerated and lungs gone.

I'm no top shooter in any group but I can guarantee you the thousand(s) rounds/year I send down range keeps me basically competent.