Snapping turtle season/ species of special concern /proposed changes to acts

Hey everyone, sorry for the long post incoming

I'm sure most of you know about the proposed changes to small game and the Fish and Wildlife act, most of them seem to be part of the MNRF's big master plan to "simplify and streamline wildlife management", which to me sounds like "making things easier for us" but that's a different issue.
I wanted some input on snapping turtle hunting , specifically if anyone actually goes out and actively hunts these guys legally? The reason I say legally is because in 2012 4 hunters reportedly killed only 12 snapping turtles over the season, that really seems like a small number to me. They have also lowered the bag and possession rate for these guys.

Anyway I'm doing a policy project on the Species at Risk act and found these guys fall under both SARO and the Fish and wildlife act for hunting.
after doing a little more digging , the only reason these guys are listed as special concern is that they have very slow and quirky reproductive rates with very low adult recruitment, as part of their natural phenology.
So from what I see from this is that the populations are fine and stable right now and that snapping turtle hunting is sustainable as long as this low harvest rate continues?
I have seen petitions to stop the harvest of snapping turtles and bullfrogs but it doesn't really seem like there's proof that their population is in danger other than the fact that snapping turtles are a "species at risk".

So does anyone here actually hunt snapping turtles? if you have for a long time have you noticed any sudden decline in adults? any info on populations from people actually going out hunting would be greatly appreciated!

No hunting of snapping turtles or data to go along with your inquiry.................... but do see lots of them run over by cars.......

Maybe because our human population is growing and new subdivisions are being built all the time............. more are getting killed by cars then ever before?..... The government can't do anything about the cars, so they try and limit the harvest? Just a guess...

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Originally Posted by fratri

No hunting of snapping turtles or data to go along with your inquiry.................... but do see lots of them run over by cars.......

Maybe because our human population is growing and new subdivisions are being built all the time............. more are getting killed by cars then ever before?..... The government can't do anything about the cars, so they try and limit the harvest? Just a guess...

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Thats always ticked me off ! There's no excuse for hitting a turtle on a road...it's not like they "run" out in front of a car !!

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Thats always ticked me off ! There's no excuse for hitting a turtle on a road...it's not like they "run" out in front of a car !!

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Yes I hear you Rick but with your profession I'm sure you know how many people are driving around with their heads up their azzes..........it's just unreal.

I have stopped and moved many turtles off the road but I'm sure they just wander right back out.

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Originally Posted by fratri

No hunting of snapping turtles or data to go along with your inquiry.................... but do see lots of them run over by cars.......

Maybe because our human population is growing and new subdivisions are being built all the time............. more are getting killed by cars then ever before?..... The government can't do anything about the cars, so they try and limit the harvest? Just a guess...

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yea from my research on them the #1 threat to them is their habitat being turned into human habitat and #2 is road mortality..I know in guelph from all the fishing and hiking in the last 5 years or so I've only seen 2 big snapping turtles . I don't know if that's alot but 1 of them was right smack in the middle of a new subdivision in a storm drain.

Still lots in the Speed river system in Preston (Cambridge ) Area .
Glen

I always wondered why a season for them if they are a species of special concern. I will say I will see 50-75 every summer on the lakes I fish. I don't know anyone around me including avid hunters and trappers who have ever killed them for food. I hear they are quite good to eat but have no desire personally to kill one for food. I see lots every summer, however very few roads for them to have to cross, which is the main cause if their demise for all turtle species. Good luck with your project.


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Even though hey are on the "special concerns" species list along with spinys , that doesn't provide much protection.
Found one newly - killed by a train once. Eggs all over the place. Couldn't believe how many eggs there were. I buried them , but probably a futile exercise.

https://www.ontario.ca/environment-a...e?name=Turtles

Turtles, any species of turtle, should not be allowed to be harvested in this day and age. They are declining drastically world wide. They are ill equipped to deal with modern threats and pressures.

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Originally Posted by rfb

Turtles, any species of turtle, should not be allowed to be harvested in this day and age. They are declining drastically world wide. They are ill equipped to deal with modern threats and pressures.

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I agree with this. Look at what happened with the Galapagos turtles. Easily targeted species, slow reproduction and no defence against harvesting pressure.


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Originally Posted by rfb

Turtles, any species of turtle, should not be allowed to be harvested in this day and age. They are declining drastically world wide. They are ill equipped to deal with modern threats and pressures.

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I guess that you have never eaten "turtle " snapping turtles are excellent table fair, 3 different types of meat textures, and turtle soup. I would never decline if offered any , very tasty.

Without a real study it's hard to say. I see many turtles and nests well beaver trapping. Most folks never get near turtle habitat.

Do the same people who do not want anyone to hunt turtles because of their decline, say the same thing about moose? I take one snapping turtle a year for a feast, tastes great.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

I guess that you have never eaten "turtle " snapping turtles are excellent table fair, 3 different types of meat textures, and turtle soup. I would never decline if offered any , very tasty.

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So lets wipe out a species because it tastes great. What a marvelous and typical response.

And as far as taking a turtle here and there, its extremely difficult to replace breeding age animals in turtle species. Look up the Algonquin Park studies for reference. And while some populations may be still locally abundant the population trends overall are sharply down.

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Do the same people who do not want anyone to hunt turtles because of their decline, say the same thing about moose? I take one snapping turtle a year for a feast, tastes great.

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I like the discussion going on, thanks for everyone's input so far!
I've been doing some more research so for people who are interested:
1. The main cause of their mortality is by far road ways and habitat loss, not necessarily hunting.
2. That being said, globally turtles are getting rocked by climate change and human effects (pollution/ land usage) so as a whole they are not doing so well.
3. although there is no data on populations in Ontario it is PROVEN that animals with high juvenile death rates and long adult life spans will be severely impacted by the death of adults in the population, and that recovery for these types of populations is incredibly slow.

"that populations of species with high, stochastic juvenile mortality and long adult life spans may be decimated quickly byincreased mortality'of adult animals, particularly if numbers of juveniles and immigrants are low. Recovery of such populationsshould be very slow because of a lack of effective density-dependent response in reproduction and recruitment" -Brooks et a. 1990 "Effects of a sudden increase in natural mortality of adultson a population of the common snapping turtle (Chelydra serpentina)"

To me it seems pretty clear that if we want these guy around in the future we should take any and all action to stop the adults from dying.
I'll post my paper up in a google doc when I can, it's only about 2 pages long but illustrates many of the same points as above except it is more related to policy than the turtles themselves.

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[COLOR=#333333]So lets wipe out a species because it tastes great. What a marvelous and typical response.

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Where oh where , did I say lets wipe out a species because it tastes great ????

Myself , I have Never taken or killed a snapping turtle, "just said they taste great "having eaten them at friends that MAY take 1 a year .

Careful how you respond to posts.

Living in an area surrounded by large rivers, Grand and Speed , Nith, and many smaller rivers, and lakes and ponds all around, I see lots of SNAPPING TURTLES in the area, even in ponds on the Golf Courses of which there are lots all around the countryside.

They don't seem to be declining towards Eastern and Northern Ontario. Could this be more a Southern issue?

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Originally Posted by rfb

So lets wipe out a species because it tastes great. What a marvelous and typical response.

And as far as taking a turtle here and there, its extremely difficult to replace breeding age animals in turtle species. Look up the Algonquin Park studies for reference. And while some populations may be still locally abundant the population trends overall are sharply down.



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It is my uderstanding that they are included in the act because of the reasons stated however we don't really have any kind of firm numbers on them anywhere in the province which to me ought to be a major part of the consideration to list them as a SAR. I've heard survival rates as low as 4% but I've never seen any kind of population estimates or tracking.

Again in we have a policy change being requested without any kind of solid science basis.

Personally i I wouldn't ever eat snapping turtle because of the reportedly high levels of mercury, cadmium and other heavy metals they accumulate over their long lifespans. The bus I'd never hunt them.

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Originally Posted by duckslayer

I have stopped and moved many turtles off the road but I'm sure they just wander right back out.

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While we're on the subject, it's important to note that a turtle should never be turned around when one is trying to help it. If your going to help the turtle out of the road by moving it, make sure you move it in the direction of travel. Otherwise it will turn around and go back into the roadway.

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Originally Posted by awndray

While we're on the subject, it's important to note that a turtle should never be turned around when one is trying to help it. If your going to help the turtle out of the road by moving it, make sure you move it in the direction of travel. Otherwise it will turn around and go back into the roadway.

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Snapping turtles can make a mess, don't get bit or scratched, nasty.

The Turtles sometimes like it on the road, the hot road surface warms up their bodies, then they get flattened by somebody texting.

A turtle bit or scratch can be very bad. I have watch city folk stop and try moving them off the road by picking them up. Good way to get bit. Yes very good eating, not much better. If taken legally tree huggers should move on, but easy to make comments. I have never hunted them, but know people that do.

Unfortunately the ministry doesnt really have a clue about the numbers actually killed by hunters and the effects on the population.

The science is out there if you want to look. I pointed out Ronald Brooks Algonquin Park studies before.

But for some reason people think they have a right to harvest till the bitter end. Which is why wildlife is dissappearing at such an alarming rate.

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There is no reason to stop the limited harvest of turtles in southern Ontario. Thy have no facts to back up a ban. I trap beaver and talk to many farmers and there is no shortage of turtles. The harvest is very small and thy should have a reporting system put in place to get some real information before banning anything

Studies show that to wipe out a population of 200 healthy adults would take a harvest of two turtles per year. Thats death by car, predator or human harvest. Bag limit is what, two a day?

And for what exactly are we harvesting them. Theres no sport in it. Its harder to kill a chicken. Because theyre tasty? Hell, go eat a cheesecake.

But no, weve got a right to wipe out species because we can. No one can tell us we cant harvest a resource no matter what the consequences.

We deserve the world we're creating.

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Rfb it sounds like you have a little bit of a Bambi syndrome going on. Throwing out worldwide "facts" and random stats that don't really have any back. If we were talking about a lot of other species that are harvested in this province I might have your back. But when it comes to snappers I don't. I have seen declines in most other species that I have harvested but this is certainly not one of them. Nobody is going out and taking their limits and if they are it isn't hurting the population. To me it seems like you are getting caught up in the peta fear mongering that frankly needs to be shut down. I'll leave it at that.


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Harder to kill a chicken ....maybe , but I have had the decapitated head of a snapper try to bite me hours after it was removed, and the headless body crawled around for hours .

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Originally Posted by natehunter

Rfb it sounds like you have a little bit of a Bambi syndrome going on. Throwing out worldwide "facts" and random stats that don't really have any back. If we were talking about a lot of other species that are harvested in this province I might have your back. But when it comes to snappers I don't. I have seen declines in most other species that I have harvested but this is certainly not one of them. Nobody is going out and taking their limits and if they are it isn't hurting the population. To me it seems like you are getting caught up in the peta fear mongering that frankly needs to be shut down. I'll leave it at that.


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Tough to argue with people who deny science. And random observations by people who say that there are plenty of turtles left is kinda meaningless.

And I always love it when people go the whole character assaination route in a debate. " i don't agree with your point so youre a tree hugger or PETA supporter."

I mean really, how lazy do you have to be go that route. It negates anything valid you might have to say.

Have you actually read any of the studies out there? Or are you just talking out of your rear end.

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So, from a science based perspective, how many snappers are left in Ontario?

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Originally Posted by rfb

Tough to argue with people who deny science. And random observations by people who say that there are plenty of turtles left is kinda meaningless.

And I always love it when people go the whole character assaination route in a debate. " i don't agree with your point so youre a tree hugger or PETA supporter."

I mean really, how lazy do you have to be go that route. It negates anything valid you might have to say.

Have you actually read any of the studies out there? Or are you just talking out of your rear end.

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Wow....no character assassination in that post.


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I've never hunted them ...I also do not see a decline in the population. ..I see about the same amount of Snapping turtles every year..
In fact seen 1 on Saturday in the middle of a field that was absolutely massive. ...I would say probably the biggest I have ever seen.

Always had a soft spot for turtles... I'd shoot a dolphin before killing a turtle...

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Originally Posted by rfb

Studies show that to wipe out a population of 200 healthy adults would take a harvest of two turtles per year. Thats death by car, predator or human harvest. Bag limit is what, two a day?

And for what exactly are we harvesting them. Theres no sport in it. Its harder to kill a chicken. Because theyre tasty? Hell, go eat a cheesecake.

But no, weve got a right to wipe out species because we can. No one can tell us we cant harvest a resource no matter what the consequences.

We deserve the world we're creating.

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That's pretty funny stuff to be posting on a hunting and fishing web site.

The part of Ontario I'm familiar with has no shortage of snapping turtles - so there's no reason not to hunt them there.
A stringer of fish isn't safe anchored at the dock even during daylight hours.

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Originally Posted by rfb

Studies show that to wipe out a population of 200 healthy adults would take a harvest of two turtles per year. Thats death by car, predator or human harvest. Bag limit is what, two a day?

And for what exactly are we harvesting them. Theres no sport in it. Its harder to kill a chicken. Because theyre tasty? Hell, go eat a cheesecake.

But no, weve got a right to wipe out species because we can. No one can tell us we cant harvest a resource no matter what the consequences.

We deserve the world we're creating.

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200 turtles divided by 2 per year is 100 years. You're also forgetting that they do reproduce - even slowly.
I'm not sure what the study is - you didn't provide a link to it, but that seems a bit strange.

As far as sport and turtles not being hard to kill - that is *never* a consideration in setting seasons and limits.

As far as your later post about "character assassination" - well if you post peta-like opinions, you can expect the
obvious comparison to be made.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

That's pretty funny stuff to be posting on a hunting and fishing web site.

The part of Ontario I'm familiar with has no shortage of snapping turtles - so there's no reason not to hunt them there.
A stringer of fish isn't safe anchored at the dock even during daylight hours.

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Just because i like hunting and fishing doesnt mean that i don't think there are limits to species we should be allowed to harvest.

If you want to ignore the science so be it. Turtles can't withstand loses to the adult population.

And just because something is locally abundant doesnt mean much in the big picture.



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Originally Posted by rfb

Just because i like hunting and fishing doesnt mean that i don't think there are limits to species we should be allowed to harvest.

If you want to ignore the science so be it. Turtles can't withstand loses to the adult population.

And just because something is locally abundant doesnt mean much in the big picture.



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"ignoring science" seems to be the buzzword to label anyone who disagrees with you.

The study I read says nest destruction is the biggest problem for turtles.

Nest destruction is a normal part of their life cycle. That they can withstand. What they arent adapted for is significant loss of breeding adults. They arent designed for that.

All you have to do us look at the picture worldwide for chelonians. Its not pretty. In Ontario all species are listed at minimum as special concern.

Im all for hunting sustainable species. This Is not one of them.

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Originally Posted by rfb

Nest destruction is a normal part of their life cycle. That they can withstand. What they arent adapted for is significant loss of breeding adults. They arent designed for that.

All you have to do us look at the picture worldwide for chelonians. Its not pretty. In Ontario all species are listed at minimum as special concern.

Im all for hunting sustainable species. This Is not one of them.

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... "that's not what "science" says"

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

... "that's not what "science" says"

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From the "Species at Risk Public Registry" for Canada. Given all that do you really think we should still be harvesting. And please don't pick out the Otter predation and hold that up above all else. You can't separate one from another as far as causes go. PS, you are right about nest predation being an issue now with an increased number of skunks and racoons.

I'm all for hunting and fishing, just not for every species.

Most of the serious threats to Snapping Turtles in Canada are events that increase adult mortality. Legal and illegal harvesting of adults, persecution and road mortality are the most prominent causes of premature death in adult Snapping Turtles. Legal and illegal harvesting is an ongoing source of mortality for the Snapping Turtle. Although Ontario has tightened its hunting restrictions, the daily bag limit of two Snapping Turtles still seems to be too high for a single population. Commercial harvest of Snapping Turtles has been banned in Nova Scotia since September 2008, but personal harvest continues. There is no commercial harvest in Quebec or Ontario. A new, rapidly increasing and far more serious threat is the illegal wildlife trade. There is a highly organized trade in turtles for food, medicine, pets and trinkets. Systematic trapping of all turtle species, including Snapping Turtles, is increasing to meet overseas demand, particularly from China. Snapping Turtles are targeted for persecution because of their reputation for aggression, their large size and fearsome features, and their reputation as voracious predators of waterfowl and sport fish. Vandals also target Snapping Turtles for violent purposes. Snapping Turtles are most vulnerable to mortality from vehicular collisions during the reproductive season because females cross roads frequently in search of suitable nesting sites, but also because soft gravel road shoulders make attractive nesting sites. Another threat to roadside nests is routine road maintenance, such as gravelling and grading, which often destroy or seriously damage nests by exposing or crushing the eggs. Other long-term threats to the persistence of the Snapping turtle in Canada include ongoing loss of habitat and decreased reproductive success due to environmental contamination. Reduced hatching success and increased deformity rates in Snapping Turtles have been reported in a number of Ontario studies. Another major threat is unnaturally high rates of nest predation by large populations of Raccoons and other mammals. In Algonquin Provincial Park, for example, a large part of the decline observed in the adult Snapping Turtle population since the late 1980s was caused by predation by Otters, but an undetermined portion was derived from mortality from vehicles and perhaps from poaching. Other factors threatening the survival of the species include boat propeller strikes, “bycatch” from both sport and commercial fishing, dredging, road grading, water drawdowns and other practices.

Thy must have missed southern Ontario farm country in there study. We have way to many big turtles around here. Every creek and irrigation pond is full of them.

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Originally Posted by rfb

From the "Species at Risk Public Registry" for Canada. Given all that do you really think we should still be harvesting. And please don't pick out the Otter predation and hold that up above all else. You can't separate one from another as far as causes go. PS, you are right about nest predation being an issue now with an increased number of skunks and racoons.

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Lets not get the environment Canada species at risk "junk" confused with "science". That's just plain silly.

But if I did take one thing from their document it's
"Reliable population size estimates of Snapping Turtles are extremely difficult to obtain, even with 30+ years of census data. "

In plain English - "we don't know what we are talking about".

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Lets not get the environment Canada species at risk "junk" confused with "science". That's just plain silly.

But if I did take one thing from their document it's
"Reliable population size estimates of Snapping Turtles are extremely difficult to obtain, even with 30+ years of census data. "

In plain English - "we don't know what we are talking about".

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I give up. God forbid we take away the right to harvest something until its gone.

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Originally Posted by rfb

I give up. God forbid we take away the right to harvest something until its gone.

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What you don't seem to get is that they are nowhere near being gone...
...and if some people spent a little more time outdoors - they'd know that.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

What you don't seem to get is that they are nowhere near being gone...
...and if some people spent a little more time outdoors - they'd know that.

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If ignorance is bliss, you must be the happiest person alive.

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Originally Posted by rfb

If ignorance is bliss, you must be the happiest person alive.

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Do you ever get out into the country and actually see what is out there , or do you just repeat what others that only think they know about such things say.
Some people can walk in the forest, but never see the trees.

Pretty well any where I go I see snapping turtles, in the swampy areas, out at our club when I go to shoot, at the golf course, anywhere there are creeks or ponds I/we see snapping turtles or signs of, where they lay their eggs.
There is no shortage of them , only in some peoples minds and their short sightedness.

These are the same arguments Newfoundland cod fishermen made, right up to the day the stocks collapsed.

Then they blamed DFO.

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Originally Posted by dutchhunter

Thy must have missed southern Ontario farm country in there study. We have way to many big turtles around here. Every creek and irrigation pond is full of them.

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How do you know there are too many? Have they eradicated local, native, fish or amphibian populations?

Since they typically can't start breeding until their carapace is over 20cm long (just over a the width of a cinder-block) , seeing many big turtles would normally be a positive thing.

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Originally Posted by rfb

If ignorance is bliss, you must be the happiest person alive.

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You appear to be an expert on ignorance.

"It must be true - I read it on the internet!!!"

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Lets not get the environment Canada species at risk "junk" confused with "science". That's just plain silly.

But if I did take one thing from their document it's
"Reliable population size estimates of Snapping Turtles are extremely difficult to obtain, even with 30+ years of census data. "

In plain English - "we don't know what we are talking about".

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Like with many ecological assessments, the data available is used. There are next to no snapping turtle studies going on. Snapping turtle sightings are collected by Ontario Nature, but I don't know if they are used as input for any evaluations. The big project going on in Algonquin Park it probably the only real snapping turtle 'thing' happening in Ontario.

Otherwise, turtle counts are generally reported in surveys of Provincial and Federal parks, or possibly through joint ventures with the EPA. I know that numbers for Rondeau and Pelee have been submitted over the years when Government has paid for some related herpetological studies, but there is essentially no money given for studying snapping turtles in Ontario. The push to fund applied science over the last two Federal Governments also siphoned money away from these types of studies, intentional or not.

Mandatory harvest reporting has been in place since 2012, but I think is pretty much unenforceable. Just from people posting in this thread, we have directly and indirectly accounted for half of the reported turtle hunters from 2012. Yet, I indirectly know of at least three more people that harvest turtles regularly. I don't think the MNRF has any real idea of the number of turtles harvested under the fishing licence scheme, but maybe I'm wrong.

So, I agree that there are only gross estimates on the numbers in Ontario. The hazards of road mortality and habitat loss does not seem to be on the decrease, those that poach or otherwise harass the turtles have no incentive to change, so I guess this is at least a measure the MNRF can control with existing resources.

I also find it interesting that the OFAH has spoken out against hunting restrictions on the snapping turtles, but I see no evidence that they are asking for turtle information from their members, or supporting research on the topic.

Ha! I found an interview/info video with Dr. Ron Brooks talking about snapping turtles in general. It is a pretty good watch, I tried to ignore the music.

I did not know that the male has to be bigger than the female for breeding. Learn something new every day.

Ron looks like he has aged pretty well.
http://vimeo.com/70387448

https://vimeo.com/70387448