Fed Issue #30 - Another broken promise: Tax cuts for the middle class

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opini...ticle33983657/

Another broken promise: Tax cuts for the middle class


When a government breaks an election promise it usually attracts a fair bit of controversy. Witness the hubbub in the aftermath of the Trudeau Liberals abandoning electoral reform. With the federal budget coming soon, it is also worth recalling that the Liberals promised to run deficits of no more than $10-billion for a maximum of three years, but the government’s latest projections peg its annual deficits at almost $30-billion with no timeline for returning to a balanced budget.


While these broken promises have garnered some attention, yet another broken promise has managed to fly under the radar. The Liberals campaigned on the promise to cut taxes for Canada’s middle class. Yet since forming government, they have announced several tax hikes and more may be on the way.


The latest potential tax hike could be higher user fees for a range of federal services (including fish licenses, campsites and passports). That’s according to a CBC report that suggests the federal government is eyeing an increase to these fees. If implemented, this would be the latest in the government’s onslaught of tax increases on Canadians.


Let’s take stock of the tax increases announced to date.

First there was the new top personal-income-tax rate on highly skilled and educated workers – now 33 per cent, up from 29 per cent. This tax hike will discourage economic activity and make it more difficult for Canada to attract and retain knowledge-based workers.

Of course, the government reduced the second-lowest personal-income-tax rate from 22 per cent to 20.5 per cent, but that reduction is being completely wiped out by the higher payroll taxes working Canadians will have to pay for expansion of the Canada Pension Plan – a combined 2 per cent hike on eligible earnings up to the current limit and an additional 8 per cent above, up to a maximum.

Keep in mind that Canadians with incomes below $45,000 will be particularly hard hit, as they will not receive any benefit from the income-tax-rate reduction but they will have to pay higher payroll taxes.



And let’s not forget about the widely-used tax credits that the government is eliminating. This includes income splitting for couples with children, the Children’s Fitness Tax Credit, the Children’s Arts Tax Credit, the Education Tax Credit and the Textbook Tax Credit (other tax credits may be on the chopping block, too, as the government wraps up its review of the tax code). While tax credits create distortions with little economic gain and require higher marginal rates, Canadians who use these credits will see their total tax bill rise from their elimination.
A more subtle tax hike came from the government scaling back the maximum amount Canadians can contribute each year to their Tax-Free Savings Accounts (now $5,500, down from $10,000). This reduction in contribution room is effectively a tax hike for those who are unable to shelter additional investments from taxation.

And then there’s Ottawa’s plan to impose carbon pricing on all the provinces, with the rate for each tonne reaching $50. This tax will directly raise the cost of many consumer goods including gasoline and natural gas, and indirectly for many others due to higher production and transportation costs.

All of this doesn’t even begin to account for the potential for higher taxes to service and repay the substantial run up in federal debt that has taken place already and that is planned for the future.

Taken together, it’s clear that the Trudeau government is breaking yet another campaign promise. So much for cutting taxes on middle-class Canadians.

I know this may not be popular but I actually don't mind some of the changes.

The first question that needs to be asked is who is the middle class . The segment of society thats shrinking, disappearing ( No-one argues this).

The second question is what's happening to them. Is a greater percentage becoming upper middle class/wealthy, or is the greater percentage becoming a "have not". I personally feel far too many are becoming have nots, and this is supported by the fact that so many Canadians are savings less, going into debt more. So many Canadians do not have enough to retire, especially those without Pensions. In short, the greatest chunk of society is paying the way so that smaller blocks live well, working hard so others don't to..........

But just who is the middle class..................If and when you look at the numbers ( and they rarely tell the whole story) it's people that earn around $45,000 or $75,000 duo.....The reality is most people who think of themselves as "middle class" aren't, and often are upper MC, or "Well Off" ( also subjective these days, but thats a different topic)...

By the numbers.
Bumping the highest tax bracket to 33%. I don't think this is all that bad. Your talking about a moderate increase that will affect the top 10% of the population. Those that earn over $200,000, and it only impacts the income that's over 200,000. In effect if someone grosses 225,000, they are paying an additional 4% on $25,000. Here's a fiddle....

Dropping the marginal rate to 20.5% from 22.5% for those that earn $45,000 to $92,000.
Clearly aimed at the upper middle class, mainly the Liberals Vote base in cities...............Not necessarily a bad thing but someone who earns say 75,000 ( double the mean duo) to $90,000 is clearly not Middle class. If its a couple pulling in 150,000-180,000 they are far and away better off than the statistical mean.......
And this is before considering any other benefits, be they Pensions or other.....................

This is also the same group of people who likely receive the most benefit from many of the tax credits our current (and past) Tax code "helps".In essence: Income splitting, many child care credits such as sport/summer camps, etc, etc, etc.

Who is most able to take advantage, legally avoid taxes and spend say $15,000 a year (between sports, camps, etc, etc) on their children.A couple that earns say 140,000 a year, or a couple that earns say 80,000 and who can't save for retirement and are getting pummelled because the well off think life is rough.................


Think of it this way.
Who gets the most benefit from RSPs.
Someone who pays 30% income tax all their life, then pays 20.5% in retirement on the money socked away..
Someone who pays 20.5% income tax all their life, then pays 20.5% in retirement.............
Now couple this by comparing those with and those without Pensions.
Person A) Grosses 75,000-90,000 and has a Pension. Has money every year for an RSP contribution
Person B) Grosses 50,000 and no Pension, and has little to no money for a contribution. Not that it would do them any good whatsoever in the first place, but we can ignore that for this illustration....

Talk about robbing Peter (Person B) to save Paul (person A).......

ditto TFSa
Ifs you think couples that gross less than say 100,000 can find 5,000 a year to put into a TFSA..Well I might question what planet we are living on. Again, these aren't "bad" things, and its arguable these days just how "well off" the "well off" are...But no matter what conclusion is arrived at. They are still far, far better off than the

Middle class.
That big chunk of society that is having it's back broken helping to pay for everything, yet gets almost nothing in return...

***********************

The biggest problem "really" is our tiered tax system, maybe one day we will move to a flat tax rate, or at the least just two, maybe three tiers...And leave the rest to consumption taxes. Those that earn a lot more, spend a lot more.........

Should add.
Completely agree with the overarching tone/theme. Aka broken promises, tax and spend and big deficits.
But who votes for this in the first place, currently and historically. Using a broad brush and painting them all the same.

The well off in cities........

I am of the opinion that this "us" and "them" on tax brackets is nothing more than the lefts divisiveness to justify taking more from all in the end. Canadians don't pay just Federal taxes and with the HST, soon to be added benefits taxes, carbon taxes etc. it is killing the economy and Canada. To look at it different, a person works from January to May before they start to keep any of their money, then the HST and Province and city take over and we are looking at July or August.

As for the RRSP and TFSA .... don't drink the media's kool-aid on their "alternative facts", study after study has shown that people retiring (packages etc.) and saving for their children's education use TFSA's and here is an article. You are assuming alot in some of your statements, let's say Person B has managed to pay off their condo/house, the car is paid for (didn't go doing something stupid like buying/leasing a new one every 3 years) etc, if their spouse was of near or comparable income and used the same philosophy and saved for their kids education, they could easily have money for a TFSA or RRSP.

Let's look at who is using it and just their income brackets.

http://business.financialpost.com/pe...-walks-of-life
In the income category of $20,000 to $24,999, 124,150 Canadians had maxed out their limit, which was about 17 per cent of all account holders at that income level.

On the other end of the spectrum, 97,630 people in the $150,000 to $249,999 category had maxed out their contributions as of 2013, which was close to 32 per cent of people in that income category.


*** NOTE: MORE in the lower income than the highest income group, perhaps those retiring?


The CRA stats show 267,000 Canadians who make less than $20,000 had contributed the maximum and 1.1 million Canadians making less than $60,000 were also contributing the maximum to their TFSA

** Note: that would be 1.3M Canadians with incomes less than $60,000... TFSA's maxes are only for the rich is just more Liebral fiction, the reduction to me looks nothing more than screw those saving.... essentially anti-austerity.

I might counter that's it's you drinking the cool aid Mosquito.

1) income category 20-25k. How many of these people are young, say 20 somethings living at home...........for but one example. Not sure where you live but if someone grosses say 25,000. Maxing a TFSA means having a disposable income that equates to 20% of their total gross. I don't know many people who have real life constraints like bills and what not, who can take 5,000 of their pre tax dollars.........


2) Yes there are "more" people, but did you somehow miss the smaller percentage, the substantially smaller percentage? 17% versus 32%. So of the two groups. While there might be more ( perhaps because there are simply more people reporting incomes of 25k, than 150k) the tale is in the percentages. 32% of people who are well off were able to max, versus only 17% of low income earners........

3) The article does mention, but you missed it somehow? Is that RSPs do nothing for those in the lower brackets. So their one and only option if they have money to sock away is a TFSA. So lets assume the numbers of people in each group are equal ( they aren't, not by a long shot). In the higher group, they might be able to find enough money to
A) pay down the mortgage
B) Contribute to an RSP (and reduce their income level, so they pay less tax)
C) And contribute to a TFSA.

Whereas someone who grosses far less, might only do one and given B does jack didly for them......

Might that explain why "more" max a tfsa, than those in the higher groups but not lets not forget its still a far greater smaller percentage. Only 17% vs 32% ( Who probably also do all they can to reduce their income first)......

Seriously, pause and think about what the numbers are really saying.
32% of that small segment of the population that grosses 150,000 to 250,000 max their TFSAs......and likely a lot more ( RSPs, RESPs, and more they can do).......
17% of that very large percentage of the population ( which would also include students, young people and seniors) who would derive NO BENEFIT from an RSP....
So you tell me, who is benefitting the most....


PS
100,000 people in the 150k-250k bracket or about 32%. So that says theres roughly 300,000 in Canada in that bracket. How many in the Canadian workforce?

At the end of the day.
"Canada’s household saving rate eased to a near five-year low of 3.6 per cent in the fourth quarter of 2014, the third-straight quarterly decline, Statistics Canada said Tuesday.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/household-saving-rate-nears-five-year-low-as-financial-risks-increase/article23274104/

And this
Close to half of Canadians would have a tough time paying bills if their paycheque came even just one week late, according to the Canadian Payroll Association's 2015 survey.The survey also showed that although more of us say we are trying to save, fewer are able to actually do so.Hard to believe that early in the 1980s, Canadians saved twice as much as Americans — an astonishing 20 per cent of our disposable income in 1982. Nowadays we save less than our southern neighbours.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/savings-decline-canada-1.3403923

And this
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ticle28761394/

And so many others..
Like paying more in taxes than we spend on housing food and clothing

Many others that show many things, the gist of which is.
The combined impact of stagnant wages
AND
High Taxation

Since the 1960s, has and is kneecapping the "average" Canadians ability to live/save.
And the reality is, for most people taking "advantage" of numerous ways to reduce their taxes.......Well first you need "$$".....And the more you have thee more you can do..The "middle class"?

not so much

They dont need all that money.

Just wanted to add, that on the whole I agree with the tone. But it's when we look at who gets "breaks" and who doesn't".
Sure its possible for someone that grosses say 45,000 to max their TFSA. Any financial advisor that barely passed their qualifying exams would counsel such a person to utilize an TFSA..Becuase, there is literally no benefit to doing anything else.

But at the end of they day per se, given everything we know about soaring cost of living, soaring taxation, various trends. Only 30 years ago, the masses were able to save 20% of their disposable income.........Today......Given all know about Pensions and what not..........

About the middle class shrinking and more.

Its not people grossing 100,000 a year that need more help...Say like Ms Wynne subsidizing toy cars for them ($15,000 each).....that need it.
Its the people in those middle areas who are getting bent.

Carbon taxes?
Take 2 people, each use the same amount of fuel each year. And so lets say it cost them both an extra $1,000 per yer.
$1,000 in additional tax is what percentage of $100,000
$1,000 in additional tax is what percentage of $50,000

Who is paying more of their "fair share"? The person that pays an additional 1% and is well off or the person thats solidly middle class and its another 2%

And who is more likely to have 10,000 for a TFSA?

Things aren't far from self adjusting.

Trudeau survived his Washington trip, that is about the most optimistic thing that can be said. Sort of like a 1st quarter hockey game.

Population is no longer "driving" home pricing and real estate prices are even falling in Vancouver. THAT IS A PROBLEM. Speculation is now driving it. THAT IS A PROBLEM.

Canada GDP= Trade, real estate, health care.

Trade no longer looks solid, real estate is teetering on population vs speculation and healthcare is higher in Ontario than anywhere in Canada by a vast amount, companies are leaving Canada and job increases are largely part time.

Canada NATO contribution .98 vs required 2% . That likely won't last.

Yes, the middle class has and will take the brunt of all of the above on top of the current idiotic PM's policies.

Now for the upside....Good thing he's good looking because an ugly PM could never sell this stupid chit to the masses.

Well, would it be fair to suggest Skypilot that for the most part, Canada has been a Liberal country for the past 50 years?

There are so many parallels between the States and Trump, and Canada and where we are heading it's "scary". The "left" or Liberals like to pretend ( in the case of politicians and Unions) or believe ( the electorate) that they are the "champions" of the middle and less fortunate. Yet oddly, despite 50-60 years of predominantly Left/Liberal rule, tax and spend policies, the statistics and trends and show the opposite. That it's the middle class being brought down.............

Another clear as day trend.
For decades, the "peons" have turned to home equity, as their saving grace. And as the years have gone by, its become the only "form" of savings. See above statics. Id really like to know how someone grossing say 50k can manage to pay the bills, pay down debt, and scrape some money together each year, especially when there are studies out there that report the average Canadian, not the high earners or low earners. The average is losing more to taxation, than they spend on housing/food/clothing....50 years ago, about 20 years before the typical Canadian could save 20% of their income....it was the opposite....

More and more people have less saved, but more home equity. You'd think having witnessed the crash is the US............Again, something that gutted the US middle class...The mid west and rust belt....

Im not a "Trump" fan, but history is utterly rife with examples of the working class, eventually rising up against the privileged. Suppose if theres a saving grace we are now civilized and don't behead the privileged anymore, whether it's the Roman Empire, Marie Antoinette, the Bolsheviks and Czars.

At some point, hopefully (or not and things will just have to implode like they are in the US). Or like here in Ontario where the divide between urban Ontario ( the haves) and rural/Northern Ontario (the have nots), where so many job losses have occurred and more...More of the privileged will come to realize that one great big segment of the public is getting bent....Those very people "everyone" seems so concerned about...

And as for our tax code, there is virtually no argument that it favours those with more in the case of credits and what not, and in many cases hits those with the least hardest. Things like Carbon Taxes...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

Well, would it be fair to suggest Skypilot that for the most part, Canada has been a Liberal country for the past 50 years?

There are so many parallels between the States and Trump, and Canada and where we are heading it's "scary". The "left" or Liberals like to pretend ( in the case of politicians and Unions) or believe ( the electorate) that they are the "champions" of the middle and less fortunate. Yet oddly, despite 50-60 years of predominantly Left/Liberal rule, tax and spend policies, the statistics and trends and show the opposite. That it's the middle class being brought down.............

Another clear as day trend.
For decades, the "peons" have turned to home equity, as their saving grace. And as the years have gone by, its become the only "form" of savings. See above statics. Id really like to know how someone grossing say 50k can manage to pay the bills, pay down debt, and scrape some money together each year, especially when there are studies out there that report the average Canadian, not the high earners or low earners. The average is losing more to taxation, than they spend on housing/food/clothing....50 years ago, about 20 years before the typical Canadian could save 20% of their income....it was the opposite....

More and more people have less saved, but more home equity. You'd think having witnessed the crash is the US............Again, something that gutted the US middle class...The mid west and rust belt....

Im not a "Trump" fan, but history is utterly rife with examples of the working class, eventually rising up against the privileged. Suppose if theres a saving grace we are now civilized and don't behead the privileged anymore, whether it's the Roman Empire, Marie Antoinette, the Bolsheviks and Czars.

At some point, hopefully (or not and things will just have to implode like they are in the US). Or like here in Ontario where the divide between urban Ontario ( the haves) and rural/Northern Ontario (the have nots), where so many job losses have occurred and more...More of the privileged will come to realize that one great big segment of the public is getting bent....Those very people "everyone" seems so concerned about...

And as for our tax code, there is virtually no argument that it favours those with more in the case of credits and what not, and in many cases hits those with the least hardest. Things like Carbon Taxes...

---

True.

In the US, it is loosely somewhat like Mike Harris in Canada in that now there has to be an adjustment after the foolishness of liberal policies for at least the last 8 years.

The forgotten middle class in the US has revolted and said enough to the liberal special interest to the detriment of the mainstream American.

The glaring fact is that service economies gut the middle class whom are the main tax revenue base and pursuing that agenda is economic suicide. Couple that with a imminent housing bubble, economist wondering what is keeping the loonie up, NATO adjustments a real possibility for the first time, US/Canada trade adjustments looming, it looks bad and when looking at the current liberal leadership, it looks potentially catastrophic.

It is the beginning of a perfect storm and anyone that deals in investing KNOWS the cycle/wave and the historical evidence of that in around 3 year cycles. That is bad enough when all else is equal or relatively stable between the two countries.

With polar opposites In the PMO and White House that wave has the potential to be exceptionally worse especially considering the current economies, refugee policies, NATO payments, and NAFTA "what ifs."

Look who is sitting off our Delaware coast as I type this. Is your Arctic next. Got the military to address that?

People need to wake up shake that BS sunny ways attitude and get a dose of reality.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

I might counter that's it's you drinking the cool aid Mosquito.

1) income category 20-25k. How many of these people are young, say 20 somethings living at home...........for but one example. Not sure where you live but if someone grosses say 25,000. Maxing a TFSA means having a disposable income that equates to 20% of their total gross. I don't know many people who have real life constraints like bills and what not, who can take 5,000 of their pre tax dollars.........


2) Yes there are "more" people, but did you somehow miss the smaller percentage, the substantially smaller percentage? 17% versus 32%. So of the two groups. While there might be more ( perhaps because there are simply more people reporting incomes of 25k, than 150k) the tale is in the percentages. 32% of people who are well off were able to max, versus only 17% of low income earners........

3) The article does mention, but you missed it somehow? Is that RSPs do nothing for those in the lower brackets. So their one and only option if they have money to sock away is a TFSA. So lets assume the numbers of people in each group are equal ( they aren't, not by a long shot). In the higher group, they might be able to find enough money to
A) pay down the mortgage
B) Contribute to an RSP (and reduce their income level, so they pay less tax)
C) And contribute to a TFSA.

Whereas someone who grosses far less, might only do one and given B does jack didly for them......

Might that explain why "more" max a tfsa, than those in the higher groups but not lets not forget its still a far greater smaller percentage. Only 17% vs 32% ( Who probably also do all they can to reduce their income first)......

Seriously, pause and think about what the numbers are really saying.
32% of that small segment of the population that grosses 150,000 to 250,000 max their TFSAs......and likely a lot more ( RSPs, RESPs, and more they can do).......
17% of that very large percentage of the population ( which would also include students, young people and seniors) who would derive NO BENEFIT from an RSP....
So you tell me, who is benefitting the most....


PS
100,000 people in the 150k-250k bracket or about 32%. So that says theres roughly 300,000 in Canada in that bracket. How many in the Canadian workforce?

At the end of the day.
"Canada’s household saving rate eased to a near five-year low of 3.6 per cent in the fourth quarter of 2014, the third-straight quarterly decline, Statistics Canada said Tuesday.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/household-saving-rate-nears-five-year-low-as-financial-risks-increase/article23274104/

And this
Close to half of Canadians would have a tough time paying bills if their paycheque came even just one week late, according to the Canadian Payroll Association's 2015 survey.The survey also showed that although more of us say we are trying to save, fewer are able to actually do so.Hard to believe that early in the 1980s, Canadians saved twice as much as Americans — an astonishing 20 per cent of our disposable income in 1982. Nowadays we save less than our southern neighbours.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/savings-decline-canada-1.3403923

And this
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ticle28761394/

And so many others..
Like paying more in taxes than we spend on housing food and clothing

Many others that show many things, the gist of which is.
The combined impact of stagnant wages
AND
High Taxation

Since the 1960s, has and is kneecapping the "average" Canadians ability to live/save.
And the reality is, for most people taking "advantage" of numerous ways to reduce their taxes.......Well first you need "$$".....And the more you have thee more you can do..The "middle class"?

not so much

---

No Kool-aid for me, I prefer stats and studies not from CBC but as for:

1) Young people starting out, living at their parents saving for education, house etc.. people retiring, perhaps in a senior residence or with family, handicapped on disability in hospital, shared accommodations... etc. There are many scenarios were a low income person might have ample funds to save for their future.... which the Libs reduced their ability to save without being gouged.

2) Of course, but 17% of a larger group of people is still more individuals.... your point being?

3) The best returns on investment are A and C, even with the reduced income


The Libs have reduced the ability of Canadians to save in lowering the TFSA limit simply because they want to take more money from all groups and see that money in people's pockets as "lost gov't revenue" ....

How can Canadian's save with the fulltime job losses (especially in AB and ON), rollbacks of tax credits (kids sports/arts, income splitting..) and more taxes on their savings (reduced TFSA and banks only giving < 1% interest), utility rates and local tax increases, carbon taxes on transportation.....?

I have to spend the time sometime to find the report talking about how many changes wage classes each year, those in any group can change by a significant percentage. In AB and ON for example many in the $100,000+ range many may be lower income now and those starting out no longer in lower or even middle but upper now. Just look in Ontario we see the starting is about $35K for the starting, the average high school teacher making almost $60K and the senior HS teachers are getting over $95.... or more. So in one group we see all income levels based on experience.

The Conservatives reduced taxes saving billions for the people but the Libs see it as "lost gov't revenue" and now they are in power we continue to see them taking from all Canadians! ... and spending it on things most Canadian's would call wasted.

Twist words much Mosquito because it doesn't fit your narrative?

You said, "More people in the low income groups are able to max TFSAs than those who earn 150k-200k" as though its some kind of revolution without really exploring, why that might be .

I said, and Ive said this more than once, is that I agree with "some" changes. One of which, is small changes to tax code that do in fact, do little for low income earners, and or the middle class. Seriously, how you can continue to argue this is beyond me. Do you think the "middle class" is someone that earns 75,000 or 80,000? Or someone that earns the same and has a Pension? You know, the kind of people who could potentially max out a TFSA?

Re 17% of a group versus 32% of a group.
/whoosh.

and by the way Mosquito, its far more than just the cbc....

Im not sure where the "disconnect" is, because on one hand you seem to be agreeing that the middle class is getting kneecapped, yet on the other are moaning about changes that really do nothing for them. Do you really think someone that earns 50k has
5,000 so little Johnny can play hockey
4,000 so little Susie can be a gymnast
2,000 for the RESPs
17,000 for an RSP ( not that it does them any good, saves them any money anyways, the tax is deferred only, do you know what that means?)
10,000 for a TFSA
10,000 for paying down debt (over and above mortgage payments).

Hmmm, 43,000 so far. Thats far more than they are left after income taxes, let alone, you know
bills.

income splitting?
please explain how two people that are middle class benefit from that. If 2 people earn 60k theres zero benefit. If one partner earns say 120,000...........
*****

But someone that earns say 100,000k or a couple that combined earn say 125,000 and more?

So if your going to give someone a cup of coffee these days. Would you give it to people already have it "relatively" good, or those who statistics say are getting kneecapped

And for the record.
There is utterly no difference with respect to "investment return" between a TFSA or RSP. None. Its six of one, half dozen of another.
RSP is pre tax dollars
TFSA is after tax dollars.

If I pay you $100. If you direct it to an RSP, theres $100 tax to be paid later. If is taxed first (say 30%) theres $70 in the TFSA.
Doesn't matter what you invest in. If in 10 years it doubles.

RSP:$200
TFSA: $140
Lets say you withdraw the money and its now in your pocket.
TFSA:$140
RSP: $200 x .70 ( or whats 30% tax of 200?)

oh yeah
$140

The advantages to contributing money to one or the other depends entirely on other things.
primarily what tax bracket are you in. If your in a high tax bracket you defer 30% tax to a later date, in theory when you retired and subject to 20% income tax. Thats a significant difference.

But if your the middle class there is no "advantage", and so a TFSA makes more sense. Also because for people who aren't so fortunate to be well off....Life happens, and we can get hit by unexpected things and need 20, 30, 40 grand. If its in a RSP its taxed (often higher than the rate your originally deferred) if its in an TFSA theres no "penalty" for withdrawing, and because most real people don't have 10,20,30 grand laying around...

No need to use a credit line either.
Anyone thats taken rudimentary financial planning courses can tell you that.
/hint


In the future, you might want to be careful when your accuse people are drinking the Kool aid.
The point being after decades of this that and the other of trying to help people with high taxation, is that really, it benefits the well off more than it does those who are truly struggling...aka the middle class that can't save...are going into debt at record levels as well......Gee I wonder why..

And isn't this timely. In the news today.

Its not about Left vs Right, its a class war brewing....And its the middle class getting bent sick of the privileged......
http://www.newswire.ca/news-releases...613678663.html

And I might add, the SUN (not the CBC)....is running it.

OK, let's try some investment realities, it is very surprising how high the percentage of low income max it out .....but not so much for those with incomes over $125K+ will be looking at investment in a company, debt elimination, lifestyle or higher yield investments. Property for example, I was talking to a real estate agent I know today and in the GTA area many houses are going for 20 or more % above asking and many are being used for investment rental properties... where if you invested in a good property the rental income will cover the majority of the costs and there is the continued increase in property values.
(ex https://www.inbrampton.com/brampton-...le-bidding-war
Chinguacousy and Bovaird Drive West area attracted a stunning 532 viewings and generated 82 offers. The home sold on Feb. 2 for $756,000—$206,000 over asking.

According to the CBC, the house was on the market for eight days.)



A couple of articles on using TFSA's
http://www.moneysense.ca/save/invest...st-not-wisely/
http://business.financialpost.com/pe...vs-tfsa-battle


Now as for the kool-aid.... when a person is loosing 10 or 20 or more % of their income to the government than someone else it is ridiculous to say they are benefiting more! theRebel does a fairly good job of covering the "fair share"
http://www.therebel.media/do_canada_...share_in_taxes


Now as for the Class war .... it is just what the left seems to be pushing to create, from your article..


Emerging Canadian Concerns & Fears

• 1 in 2 people agree that an influx of people from other countries is damaging Canada's economy and national culture.
  ** Libs wanting to increase it more....
• 40% of Canadians agree they are denied access to education and opportunities to get ahead.
  ** Are they willing to work for it though... ask any employer about lazy, job jumpers etc.
• 80% of people think the elites who run institutions are out of touch with regular people. ** evidences suggest they are right
• 61% of people do not have confidence that Canada's leaders will be able to successfully address Canada's challenges. ** Trudeau, Wynne, Notley .... evidence suggests they are right
• 2 in 5 say Canada shouldn't enter into free trade agreements because they hurt Canadian workers. ** majority see opportunity in free trade, not sure the demographic on this
• 69% say we need to prioritize Canadian interests over the rest of the world. ** If you can't take care of your own, how much help can you really be
• 69% agree government should protect jobs and local industries even if it means the economy grows more slowly. ** YES! Libs seem oblivious like Wynne building a ferry in Chile while a company 25 miles away builds comparable boats and wasn't allowed to bid.
• Issue: Corruption (52% concerned, 23% fearful) ** Libs (pay for access, .....)
• Issue: Globalization (67% concerned, 30% fearful) ** Libs/Soros ...... enough said there
• Issue: Eroding Social Values (54% concerned, 25% fearful) ** takes FROM charities, pot smoker, admirer of dictators as PM ... enough said there
• Issue: Immigration (52% concerned, 28% fearful) ** Too many, not willing to check properly...
• Issue: Pace of Innovation (53% concerned, 23% fearful) ** It is getting too integrated and increasing in vulnerability, at some point a solar flare, hacker, coding error etc. is going to really f*** us up!

You present those % as facts, from where?

Globe and Mail, CNW, Calgary Sun, yahoo.com news, newswire.ca at a quick glance.

So much I could say, will just say.
TFSAs. Read the 2nd link. For the most part everything I've said.

However at the end of the day. If someone doesn't know what an ETF is ( do you) or why they are good investment vehicles over say MFs ( do you know what a MER is?). That will hold true no matter where they have their money in a TFSA or RSP... The same person that doesn't know the difference between an ETF and MF is the same person who will miss "better investment decisions".....regardless of where the money is parked.
For all intents and purposes there is no difference. The writer in the first article didn't discuss options either, or shorting,. or Puts and Calls, and many other vehicles that can be held in both. Most people, don't even realize that the tax treatment for dividends is different than the tax treatment of Interest. Whats the difference Mosquito?

Or frankly whats the difference between an ETF and a MF ( you can invest in both in both TFSAs and RSPs). In fact if your sophisticated enough you can even utilize options and strategies like covered calls in RSPs. That entails a certain level of risk tolerance though not commonly found. Do you know how risk tolerance is defined? And did you know that one finding in various studies shows that for Canadians, the "better" off they are, the more tolerant of risk they are. At the end of the day if a millionaire loses 25% its no different really than someone with 50,000 total who loses 25%. So if your wondering why so many play it safe with their meagre savings..........

Point being, the vast majority of people are not aware, period of the differences, nor why one or the other might be a better choice. At the end of the day as I tried to illustrate there is really no benefit, no inherent "investment return" advantage to either. There is certainly a big advantage to deferring the tax when your in a high bracket to the day when your in a low bracket....But those in the middle.

Using the changes.
People earning 45-90k can defer 20.5% to the day they retire, when guess what they are going to pay 20.5%.....On every dollar above 45k...No bloody wonder people have finally sized up....Its really only benefit to the well off......And on the off chance your able to sock away money young when your in a 20% bracket, but if life happens and you need to withdraw funds.....maybe your 40 something and who the heck knows....Well now your paying more tax, than you originally deferred.......

Re the last paragraph, theres something your missing.
Many of the things your bolding, many accused Harper of to...Food for thought. There are reasons so many people didn't trust him, and instead voted for a popular (abeit naive no substance dreamer)...Did you miss the parts that said the masses are sick of the "elitist", translation the privileged. Be they Harpers back room buddies that he pandered to, be they the CEOs of companies be they the well off getting so many tax breaks, despite all being heavily taxed.

Trying to stay somewhat on point, which was (is) the way our tax system and all those credits your moaning about...Somebodies paying for all that and by now I hope you can guess who it is. If you truly think or thought Harper was in touch with the working class and just who they are, not sure what to say to that...

Perhaps you should read this.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle26431270/

And pause long enough to wonder why so many were sick and tired of Harper to, so much so they voted for a buffoon kind of like so many just did the same south of us. Tired of things like income splitting helping the well off, the middle class.....Not so much...Boosting TFSAs ( while nice ) if you live in the real world........

As Skypilot rightly pointed out. Everyone fighting for scraps, meanwhile forgetting the middle class exist.

An excerpt from that link. AKA WHEN HARPER WAS IN POWER.

[b]A 2013 internal government document, entitled “What We Know about the Middle Class in Canada,”[COLOR=#111111] draws the lines more precisely, deeming the middle class as those whose after-tax income falls between 75 per cent and 150 per cent of the national median – which, using 2012 figures, would include any family taking home $54,150 to $108,300 a year.

“Family,” however, is a catch-all demographic that includes couples of all ages, with or without children, single or double-earners, and single parents. Single people are excluded entirely – one of the fastest growing groups in Canada and a big chunk of the middle class – whose income, using the same government calculation above, would fall between $21,150 and $42,300.


Who did Harper try to woo?
Would love to know how someone earning 40,000 gets any benefit what so ever from "income" splitting....lmao even if its two people earring in the means of say 80k combined......

Or having 10,000 to max TFSAs when its a known fact, that the vast majority are going deeper and deeper into debt (in many cases trying to make ends meet), and don't have near enough saved.

Also from the link the average net worth is 200,000k
If you need to live 25 years after retirement and CPP/OAS might get you 10-15k a year.
How far do you think 200,000k will go ( and do note also in that link for the peons, the vast ,majority most of that is from their home equity)...need somewhere to live........

Probably an over simplification but if government at any level were better administrators and money managers this argument would be a moot point

Haha. Brevity has its place nor are you wrong. Harper was good, I voted for him. That doesn't change things, doesn't change that he like any of them pandered to the privileged. Had his companies and CEOs and backroom deals, no differently than Ms Wynne.....

Recently, in the Kevin O'Leary thread I think, I linked a very good article that spoke about Trumps popularity, why he is in the White House, The Americans working class and the growing ( can't think of right word) anger towards the "privileged". Largely white collar professionals in cities.

Trumps not Right Wing, he's anti establishment, going to drain the swamp, "make America great again". What? People think it's only Obama the American middle class, those people in the rust belt, the mid west have seriously had enough of????? Its the left wing wing that millions of working class Britons have seriously had enough of?
Yeah they are a good chunk of it..........

Read this one to. Even though its specific to the US, pay attention to how similar things are here. The middle class today, still earns less than they did in the 70s...Thats not big government....thats corporate greed as the left likes to moan about, and CEOs and. And thats not the only mirrored trend.
http://origin-www.bloombergview.com/...s-middle-class

Read the study by Edelman released yesterday....
Note the "resentment" towards....the upper quintile. Not the left, not the right, the upper 20%

Now read this one again.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle26431270/

Earlier Mosquito you made some comment ( aside from say I drink Kool aid )about it being ridiculous that people who pay 20% more in tax ( they don't) benefit more..But they can certainly take advantage of a slew of loopholes and advantages in tax code that the peons ( sorry that was the term in Marie Antoinettes day) the working class can't. RSPs, TFSAs, RESPs, more are also just the tip of the iceberg..........

From the Globe article, Stats Canada ( going to try and discredit them now to?) and the Harper govt.
But the sun is not shining on everyone equally. According to a recent analysis for the University of Calgary’s School for Public Policy conducted by former Statistic Canada economists Philip Cross and Munir Sheikh, lumping middle-class factory workers together with middle-class teachers – as politicians are wont to do – “obscures the truth about which members of that group are struggling to keep up.”

By every measure – assets, income and the share of earnings – the wealthiest Canadians have done better, while those in lower income brackets have fared significantly less well. This pattern also holds true within the middle class, where the gap between the top and bottom has widened.
In fact, that 2013 internal government memo (leaked from Employment and Social Development Canada) was downright gloomy. It described a middle class that was shrinking and falling deeper into debt, and “increasingly vulnerable to financial shocks.”

The middle class is not I suspect who you think it is.
Think about the G20...........
And Marie Anoinette

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

< snip >

Ifs you think couples that gross less than say 100,000 can find 5,000 a year to put into a TFSA..Well I might question what planet we are living on. Again, these aren't "bad" things, and its arguable these days just how "well off" the "well off" are...But no matter what conclusion is arrived at. They are still far, far better off than the

Middle class.
That big chunk of society that is having it's back broken helping to pay for everything, yet gets almost nothing in return...

***********************

The biggest problem "really" is our tiered tax system, maybe one day we will move to a flat tax rate, or at the least just two, maybe three tiers...And leave the rest to consumption taxes. Those that earn a lot more, spend a lot more.........

Should add.
Completely agree with the overarching tone/theme. Aka broken promises, tax and spend and big deficits.
But who votes for this in the first place, currently and historically. Using a broad brush and painting them all the same.

The well off in cities........

---

I agree with most of what you've said here. I would like to add though, I don't believe the biggest problem is the tax system. Yes it's a serious problem, but I believe consumerism is. Of course that's a conversation for another topic, but it ties in well with your comment about a couple who earns less than $100K. If they can't afford $5K per year for some savings, then it's probably time for them to read a book, get some free counselling and learn budgeting 101. Mind you, you didn't specify the lower end of that scale, but the same principle applies.

That factors in as well Awndray, not disputing that.
Questions.
How much does it cost to go to University these days. How many tens and tens of thousands of young people are spending tens and tens of thousands on post secondary, only to leave with worthless pieces of paper and can't find work......

Will admit, that at times blaming people for some things gets my back up a little. One I came from the "wrong side of the tracks", was lucky where many others weren't. The disadvantages and hurdles many people face are real.

Re Cant find 5k for savings.
Again, look at the statistical mean. For single person, thats $40,000 to $45,000. I can tell you thats roughly what financial advisors earn. People who spend a few years in University, then once they get their foot in the door are required to continue to add their qualifications. Im 52 and Im still taking advanced courses........................Have likely by now spent way more time educating my self, than all Teachers ( who like to say they deserve double the mean and insane benefits because they go to school).......

Now consider, or add, or what ever we want to label it. This emerging trend.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/men-bo...hind-1.3962316

What, people caught in that...ironically working class men who might be 30, 40, 50 should go back to school and spend how money and how many years on a wish and prayer?

Agree, that our tax system is not the "biggest" problem, but it is a big one. Don't forget I spent 20+ years working for a company that was all about helping both people and companies, legally avoid taxes or shelter money. The stuff many hollywood movies are about. Ironic in the end, that all our heads rolled because a few people in Germany bent some tax law and the Germans claimed it was tax evasion and money laundering, then seized the Company.....

Legally avoid taxes or shelter money says it all. Maybe if we closed loopholes that only the wealthy can afford to take advantage of, there would be a more level playing field, and 'fair share' may mean something. Why should there be shelters or loopholes to avoid your fair share of taxes at all? Why,because it benefits those who make the rules!

Oh and one thing that leaps out in that latest trend. The way they are quick to "blame men". Hmm, last I checked a lot of industries, if your a white male, you need not apply. How many young men do I know that have spent years trying to land jobs in policing............

or Conversely, if there are industries where "men" are under represented. They blame the "wage gap" ( Do note theres no denying it exist). So is the solution then if we need/want more male PSWs, RPNs, Teachers etc. We tell all the 20-30 something females coming out of school, don't bother applying...We only want to see applications from men?

Given Mosquito likes "real" life examples. Heres one.
Male family member. He's in his late 20s. Spent years in Teachers college. Came out and couldn't find work. I know a lot of teachers and he would have been a great one. Gave up..........A year ago got a job through a friend as a

Glazier.
Exactly the kind of career that article is talking about. A dying job, breaks his back working long hours and Im guessing grosses around the mean.

The future doesn't look to bright.
Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Legally avoid taxes or shelter money says it all. Maybe if we closed loopholes that only the wealthy can afford to take advantage of, there would be a more level playing field, and 'fair share' may mean something. Why should there be shelters or loopholes to avoid your fair share of taxes at all? Why,because it benefits those who make the rules!

---

What shelters and loop holes? TFSAs? RRSPs? RESPs?

RESPs aren't a big loop hole. Tax is still paid on both the grant and the gain. The only break is the parent saves the money (taxed) and the student pays the tax on the grant and gain.

RRSPs? They're still taxed. Anyone picking on RRSPs as a loop hole probably has a big fat government pension that is indexed to inflation.

RESPs - Its a loophole sure, but you're not going to save the countries finances by closing it.

The countries financial problems are not with the money the government isn't collecting because of loopholes. Its with what the government does with the money it does collect. Anyone that doesn't get that probably should stay out of complicated threads like this.

...and I'm not a buddy of JBen's... but if you're arguing with him on financial issues - even without knowing what they are - It's pretty safe to say you're probably wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Legally avoid taxes or shelter money says it all. Maybe if we closed loopholes that only the wealthy can afford to take advantage of, there would be a more level playing field, and 'fair share' may mean something. Why should there be shelters or loopholes to avoid your fair share of taxes at all? Why,because it benefits those who make the rules!

---

You know I've never totally disagreed with you G. Where we differ, is like most on the left ( See the US for example) you "blame" solely "corporate greed". Ive said it time and time again. Its both.......stagnant wages and taxation (see 2 or 3 of the links Ive supplied). Its not hard to see "the problem". The middle class has been stagnant since around the 70s........at the same time, taxation, the size and cost of government have exploded.
See PET.............How many times have I said the rich are still the rich, the poor are still the poor.
The middle class down and like any teeter when one thing goes down, another goes up.

And now these days so many tax credits, a god awful amount of them. Some benefit this group, some that group, more that group, still more that. And almost none that the working class, nor much else ( in essence)...Look at Ontario for gods sakes. Tens, hundreds of thousands of good, jobs....gone. By far the vast majority outside the land of plenty ( the GTA).....Whats Wynne done for those people........

You will blame the 1%.
In Canada thats anyone approaching gross annual of 200,000.......

100,000 puts you in the top 20%

We all know the 80-20 rules right?
****

I am all about helping people reduce their tax loads. People on the right might be quick to raise those Fraser studies that show the average person pays more to taxation than they spend on housing/food/clothing........43% these days and thats the typical family..I figure by the time I included everything I was just over 50%...........But I made good coin, was able to take advantage of many things.........

What can the truly well off do?
lol, where can I start and where can I end...........

I am in favour of a flat tax rate, or as mentioned something thats both fewer brackets, and tighter together. Then let all the various fee's, sin taxes, consumption taxes take care of the rest, and if needed raise them. Get rid of all the credits and non sense they have brought in to woo some votes.

Anyone that thinks the typical family can sock money into
RSPs
TFSAs
RESPs
afford hockey, and gymnastics and summer camps and more
And take advantage of just some of the credits, or deductions. That Harper was using to woo the privileged (aka the upper quintiles)

don't know what to say

Again, I agree with what you're saying. But you also brought up the subject of post-secondary education and the astronomical costs associated to it. That too, in my opinion is a subject for another thread. The push for university education in this country in the last couple of decades has been one of the best scams pulled by our governments. That one needs a 4 year degree to obtain a decent wage is a fallacy. We all know this. Yet we have an educated generation of largely unemployed or underemployed debt-holders. It's shameful.

Yes W-R I agree I can't argue with JB on this topic. I mean no shelters at all, no RSP's, no TFSA, no RESP, none nada zilch. No deferring taxes at all. You make this much, then you pay this much.... period. What you do with the remaining money after your bill is paid is up to you. But allow nothing that will enable you to reduce what has been determined to be your 'fair share'.

lol.
please, I am by no means an "expert". if I was Id be on an island somewhere near the equator drinking beer, and Pina Coladas while fishing for Permit and Tarpon. Just keeping it "real".
***
Argue away, where we run into trouble is when we say things like, "your drinking the kool Aid" simply because one person has a different perspective.....

JBen I've known several REAL life examples of teachers that couldn't find work, many because they wouldn't move to an area that didn't have a surplus, several that spent their time teaching anything but their major. A one or two off does not speak for all Canadians any more than the 1 or 2 lotto winners do each week.

As for the TFSA .... back to the old article ..... the source for their report is the CRA.
http://business.financialpost.com/pe...-walks-of-life

Now as for taxes not being the biggest problem ....
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle19999873/
Canadians spend more on taxes than on food, clothes and housing, study finds
The average family, according to the group, brought in $77,381 in 2013, paying out 41.8 per cent of that in total tax, and 36.1 per cent on necessities such as food, clothes and housing.


Compare that to 1961, when the numbers were $5,000, 33.5 per cent and 56.5 per cent, respectively.
The Fraser Institute calculates that total taxes for the average family have surged 1,832 per cent since 1962, compared to 1,375 per cent for shelter, 620 per cent for clothes and 546 per cent for food.


and that obviously has gone up under the Liberals and to back it up we see just the income taxes alone for the $80,000 family at 18%
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...il130g-eng.htm

and when you add on HST, tax peoples savings and investments, take away taxes when they need retirement money (RRSP) .... then it is clear that the TFSA is an interference with the gov't agenda of bleeding people dry (hence the CD Howe recommendation for a cap) and the LIEbral's reducing the limit. The gov't sees that money as theirs to take taxes from (ignoring the fact those funds when spent will be taxed) to the detriment of people's opportunity to save.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

lol.
please, I am by no means an "expert". if I was Id be on an island somewhere near the equator drinking beer, and Pina Coladas while fishing for Permit and Tarpon. Just keeping it "real".
***
Argue away, where we run into trouble is when we say things like, "your drinking the kool Aid" simply because one person has a different perspective.....

---

and I stand by the kool-aid statement if you can honestly say you don't think all income brackets are paying their fair share, heck the Liberals just jacked up the upper tax bracket again. Some defer taxes and use their brains instead of just blindly ignoring the ways to save but that just shows they are earning it rather than clueless spending. I go back to theRebel's little simplified report.

http://www.therebel.media/do_canada_...share_in_taxes

The one example of someone not paying their fair share would be a trust fund individual that takes money from charities to speak there and has taxpayers pay for his two nannies .....

Where did I say all brackets aren't paying their "fair share". If I did it would have been sarcasm. Have I not repeatedly said everyone is taxed too much?
What I have said, repeatedly. Is that the tax code ( and in this case we are talking about credits, deductions etc) is that not all benefit from them, not remotely...
What I have said, repeatedly, and tried to illustrate, I hope by now somewhat conclusively, both in realistic terms ( aka real life) and supported by numerous things.

Take just this quote from the one globe article.
[i]But the sun is not shining on everyone equally. According to a recent analysis for the University of Calgary’s School for Public Policy conducted by former Statistic Canada economists Philip Cross and Munir Sheikh, lumping middle-class factory workers together with middle-class teachers – as politicians are wont to do – “obscures the truth about which members of that group are struggling to keep up.”

By every measure – assets, income and the share of earnings – the wealthiest Canadians have done better, while those in lower income brackets have fared significantly less well. This pattern also holds true within the middle class, where the gap between the top and bottom has widened. In fact, that 2013 internal government memo (leaked from Employment and Social Development Canada) was downright gloomy. It described a middle class that was shrinking and falling deeper into debt, and “increasingly vulnerable to financial shocks.”[i]

Care to explain? How it is, if all are treated equally those working class stiffs are falling further and further and further behind. While both the rich get wealthier, the the upper middle class/well off leave them in their dust. And do note its not just the CBC. Its Statistics Canada, leaked Harper era government memos, more.........Further it's not just here....

Which not only heavily supports the things Im trying to illustrate, is directly contradictory to the things your saying ( in essence ). Do note, also. That literally every party, every level of government while their solutions might be different and what they think is the "right thing" they are in unanimous agreement. The "middle class" is taking it on the chin. In short ( for lack of better words) they are all "concerned" about CPP/OAS, about giving people tax breaks. Have been for decades.............
See also Ms Wynne and ORPP

It's funny I do actually try to keep things "short", haven't figured out how. :)
Im not arguing the others things you might notice, because for all intents and purposes I agree, and I "repeat" things because its staying on "topic" or on point, trying not to stray too far off the main theme......

As I said from the get go re TFSAs.
What do you think I tell every young person who wonders what their best option might be if they manage to find a few dollars to save.....
What do you think I tell someone who earns say 90,000 what to do....

If you want to make the argument that they aren't just for the rich, I'll agree.......Im not going to contradict myself, nor contradict the advice I give people.
Your missing or glossing over the (searches for right words)...the various reasons why people are utilizing them.

But again, if you really think that the typical person has 10,000 to put into them. Read the article your linking. It says it in black and white, they don't. Further the article your linking also clearly states that theres a wide in the percentages.

And they certainly don't have the money to max a TFSA, pay down debt, put money into RESPs ( Harper wanted to increase that as well), etc, etc. Like everyone else they are taxed to the teeth, and things are getting harder and harder...For gods sakes, here in Ontario alone we have people, you know working class people having to choose between Hydro...........or Food
And you think they are capable of putting 10,000 into a TFSA...........or that income splitting is of any use what so ever to them????

You know in the last 40 years, the growth in one part of my industry alone should be enough. Years ago people (those that were capable) went to a stock broker. These days, by far the biggest components are Estate Planning, Retirement Planning, Tax reduction..........(also lately various forms of Insurance mainly critical illness/disability).

/wonders how many people can afford critical illness insurance.
Do you know that these days 95% of people survive heart attacks...years ago people died, families collected life insurance. These days, instead they are off works months and months......with bills to pay..................

Another True Story.
Back in November a guy suffered a brain aneurism, was clinically dead ( aka non responsive) when he was found. Somehow paramedics brought him back. Not sure what that means for the family, the brain damage etc, he will never recover, never go back to work, and will require care the rest of his life....

I just don't know how to "get it across", that people who what we might call your typical working stiff are in fact, the ones getting bent. Despite so much "evidence", that if you "really think someone that earns 50k and is a typical working stiff has the money after taxes, after life (bills etc) to put 10g into a TFSA each year.....

Well I guess theres no need for tax planning, retirement planning, estate planning, business succession planning ( say a family business from parents to children), no need for all the worries and concerns about millions of Canadians who don't have enough saved, or CPP or OAS, or legacy cost at the government level and so many other things I could mention.

but I do try or would like to keep these short
:)

Oh and one last thing. While I do read the Sun from time to time, you do know the Rebel is um..............
No better than the CBC
:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Yes W-R I agree I can't argue with JB on this topic. I mean no shelters at all, no RSP's, no TFSA, no RESP, none nada zilch. No deferring taxes at all. You make this much, then you pay this much.... period. What you do with the remaining money after your bill is paid is up to you. But allow nothing that will enable you to reduce what has been determined to be your 'fair share'.

---

This would mean taxing public servants on their pension as it accrues during their working years, decades before they're collecting it.
It would pretty much mean the end of anyone in the PS retiring before age 65.
How are you going to sell that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by awndray

Again, I agree with what you're saying. But you also brought up the subject of post-secondary education and the astronomical costs associated to it. That too, in my opinion is a subject for another thread. The push for university education in this country in the last couple of decades has been one of the best scams pulled by our governments. That one needs a 4 year degree to obtain a decent wage is a fallacy. We all know this. Yet we have an educated generation of largely unemployed or underemployed debt-holders. It's shameful.

---

It's not just the government - its industry too. Why hire someone with an engineering degree when you can get someone with a masters for the same price. Couldn't find a (suitable) job when she graduated with a B. Eng in biomedical science. Went back for her masters and was offered a job literally 10 minutes after her thesis defence.

It's what I call "education inflation". and I don't have an answer for it other than to tell people that the problem is not lack of education, its a lack of jobs. There is a fixed number of jobs and the best educated will get them. So people go and over-educate to be at the top of the heap. That works for individuals, but it is very, very bad for the herd.

Just one wee "clarification" Werner.
PS servants are to a degree taxed on their DBPs. The amount contributed is also "clawed back" against RSP contribution room. But, as you said.
Its a lot easier to max an RSP contribution, and or a TFSA or RESPs or all three, when the working stiffs are funding that pension......Or rather you have that behind you. Frees up a ton of money to
Pay down the mortgage
Sock away
Pay off the car loans
etc.

So yup, would tend to agree that that in an ideal world, if the working stiffs and better off can't take advantage of various tax breaks, that to........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by werner.reiche

It's not just the government - its industry too. Why hire someone with an engineering degree when you can get someone with a masters for the same price. Couldn't find a (suitable) job when she graduated with a B. Eng in biomedical science. Went back for her masters and was offered a job literally 10 minutes after her thesis defence.

It's what I call "education inflation". and I don't have an answer for it other than to tell people that the problem is not lack of education, its a lack of jobs. There is a fixed number of jobs and the best educated will get them. So people go and over-educate to be at the top of the heap. That works for individuals, but it is very, very bad for the herd.

---

Absolutely. Completely agreed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by awndray

Again, I agree with what you're saying. But you also brought up the subject of post-secondary education and the astronomical costs associated to it. That too, in my opinion is a subject for another thread. The push for university education in this country in the last couple of decades has been one of the best scams pulled by our governments. That one needs a 4 year degree to obtain a decent wage is a fallacy. We all know this. Yet we have an educated generation of largely unemployed or underemployed debt-holders. It's shameful.

---

The unions have a large part to do with it as well. They push their members to obtain more education so that they can negotiate more pay. The public sector is horrible for that as they are all now deemed to be "professionals". It really irks me when I see some doing menial jobs for big pay because their collective agreement lumps them all in there.

Example: My daughter is an RPN. She now wants to be an RN. This is now a bachelors degree. Back to university for the next 4 years. Zero credit for her current license. A couple of decades ago it was a simple extra year in college. The work has not changed but the money scam has for sure.
The bulk of the knowledge is still obtained as a hands on experience. Something a school can never teach no matter the profession. Give me all the theory you want but until I can put some of it in practice then forget about it. I have always been a strong advocate of colleges but unfortunately they are now in bed with the universities.

Oops, JB you dissed the 'rebel' , now mosq. is probably melting his keyboard with the speed of his fingers. I made that mistake before, and was the brunt of his wrath. LOL.

And yet Impact.
The province ( or rather different jurisdictions) are letting RNs go, by the thousands and hiring RPNs.........if that trend continues. she might want to stay a RPN, save the money, the schooling, be a mom, spend time with her kids, etc....

Back to the family member that couldn't get hired on as a teacher, and instead became a tradesman....An industry that would seem to be bad for males......His wife is an RPN. She makes really good money, ( I think close $40/hr which is about double the mean) but has to pull double duty at a couple different hospitals, works ungodly hours.....

Impact , do you really think that nursing has not changed over the years? You had better talk to your daughter about that. The duties and responsibilities are much different between a RPN and a RN and so is their knowledge. Yes I want a nurse that has a degree, in that operating room, not one with a diploma.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Impact , do you really think that nursing has not changed over the years? You had better talk to your daughter about that. The duties and responsibilities are much different between a RPN and a RN and so is their knowledge. Yes I want a nurse that has a degree, in that operating room, not one with a diploma.

---

Being one that works in the health care industry I am more than able to speak on the subject. And your credentials are???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

And yet Impact.
The province ( or rather different jurisdictions) are letting RNs go, by the thousands and hiring RPNs.........if that trend continues. she might want to stay a RPN, save the money, the schooling, be a mom, spend time with her kids, etc....

.

---

Tried to tell her but won't listen...lol
FYI, on average an RPN makes $30/hr and RN about $42/hr so a difference of about $24K a year.
The RN is also now more focused on the admin portion of the job whereas RPN do grunt work.
The RN still has an opportunity in areas such as OR and Emerg if that is what they wish to do but the Bachelor's degree buys them "Admin" rights.

Impact....I worked 35 years in the heath care field, LTC , nurses in the family, and my son is a Phd. medical researcher as well. At work I dealt with PSW's, RPN's and RN's, all day every day. Their knowledge and expertise are very different, hence the wage gap. No RPN's in surgery, in fact a RPN is not even allowed to give an injection.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Impact....I worked 35 years in the heath care field, LTC , nurses in the family as well. At work I dealt with PSW's, RPN's and RN's, all day every day. Their knowledge and expertise are very different, hence the wage gap. No RPN's in surgery!

---

Don't know which 3rd world country you worked in but here are today's job postings for RPN's in OR....

https://ca.indeed.com/Registered-Pra...ting-Room-jobs

I retired 5 years ago so I guess that much has changed , but I want a nurse with a degree in surgery with me. As far a working for a third world country, that is wrong I worked for and in the City of Toronto . Ha ha I know the third world jokes that go with that admission, so don't bother I have heard-lived them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

I retired 5 years ago so I guess that much has changed , but I want a nurse with a degree in surgery with me. As far a working for a third world country, that is wrong I worked for and in the City of Toronto . Ha ha I know the third world jokes that go with that admission, so don't bother I have heard-lived them.

---

To each his own! I would much rather have a person with "Practical" experience work on me than one that has practiced on a piece of paper.
See what I did there...lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by impact

To each his own! I would much rather have a person with "Practical" experience work on me than one that has practiced on a piece of paper.
See what I did there...lol

---

Haha, welcome to "my world".
Spend years getting various qualifications ( which don't pay me 1 more cent), just something those in my field are required to do, because we "serve the public".

Have it drilled into our heads nine ways to sunday that it's about doing the best we can Johnny Q, be "professionals". It's not about anything other than helping save for retirement, or teach them about the differences between TFSAs and RSPs, or ETFs ( a Mutual fund) and Mutual Funds, and ETFs are a better choice, no MER ( Management Expense ratio aka sales commission in essence). and on and on and on and on.

Go read job postings for banks. They don't want professionals, they want fresh kids out of school without lick of real world experience and they don't care what these kids know or don't know about financial advice, don't care that they will be trying to help real people, with real life problems be it divorce, be it medical expenses/concerns, be it how the hell they can manage to squirrel 20,000 to help their kids with University, and squirrel 20,000 because their car is falling apart, and so many other things..let alone winning the game of life and one day retiring...

...they want to know you can sell them swamp land in Florida.Want to know you have proven sales records.......Oh and about all that knowledge and expertise and real "hands on experience".they say is or so important....Dont worry about it.

I go into banks sometimes ( was actually in one a couple weeks ago because my GF was wondering what to do with what little she has managed to squirrel away) and I walked her through many things and she needed to stop the automatic contributions to her RSP, and instead direct it to a TFSA ( and not invest it in MFs, but rather ETFs).
I like having a blank stare on my face when I listen to these 25-32 year olds counsel her on life.

Heres one, its not as bad as some others I've seen. and will guess/suggest it pays right around the mean. Low 40s
https://cibc.taleo.net/careersection...9&src=JB-10304

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by impact

To each his own! I would much rather have a person with "Practical" experience work on me than one that has practiced on a piece of paper.
See what I did there...lol

---

I want a nurse with a degree AND practical experience. Rather than a nurse with a diploma and practical experience.

So according to some 40 grand a year makes them part of the have nots. Yet they are going to advise some of the haves (people with money to save-hide), what to do with their money...seems strange. LOL

Not sure whats "strange" about it G. Will use bullits.
~"have nots". Have you not been reading the press the past 15 years? A couple of the articles I've linked? I guess I can understand why you think it's strange, given most of the people in real need of "help", you never had to walk in their shoes. Earned more than the mean though certainly not enough to be "upper middle class". Had a tax payer funded pension. The fact you retired early, still escapes you doesn't it? See me, I don't consider it strange. Perspective. Oh and your pension?
Guess who takes of it for you, works hard so you don't have to. People like me. So whether you come "in my door" for investment advice or not, your still getting it.

Free

But theres also these days.
Tax law
Estate planning
Wealth management
Retirement planning
Real need for different kinds of Insurance especially disability/critical illness....but becareful theres also having too much Insurance......

Fact is, most FAs usually specialize in one area or another. They might be accountants with tax specializations, they might be lawyers maybe family law or insurance liscenced, or investments specialist ( IAs...Investment Advisors). But most are a little of everything. And they likely get paid less than you did and likely don't have a pension paid for by "someone else"..

Read that job posting by CIBC.....And thats just the beginning.....

How many people do you personally know who can
Talk to you about family law
Tax law, tax returns, more
Estate Planning
Retirement planning
and more.

And as Mosquito rightly pointed out, linked.
The vast majority of people don't really know. Oh they might know enough to do their own tax returns. But plan their estates. Amongst other things make sure they don't get raped by taxation?
What probate is
Capital gains taxes and taxation
RSPs, TFSAs, ETF, MFs, what risk is (what it really is)
And yes for some, how to budget to.

When was any of that taught to kids in high school.....

Back on topic which unsurprisingly has touched on a number of different things now, be it how society has placed so much emphasis on paper, its creating big problems, for lots...in different ways, but started off with a fairly straightforward the woking class is taking it on the chin, and the reality is, most can't take advantages of things....but even those who can. So yes, we have or are creating new classes if you will. or if you prefer it worded differently, we are driving the working class to their knees. But even for those somewhat better off.....

Whats the different between the way dividends are taxed, and interest is taxed....


holy crap, there are thousands and thousands and thousands of just
Tax lawyers these days. needed to unravel the thousands of pages of tax law.
:)

Maybe JB that is why I trust my accountant about what to do with my money, rather than someone who works for the bank, and has a vested interest in what I do with that money. I am one that believes, the more education you have, the better it is for your future, so yes, some pieces of paper ( degree), are worth more than others ( diploma).

Well we are venturing down a related branch again
:)

Cant say I disagree, but as Impact as rightly pointed out..Or as Werner rightly pointed with the post about what he calls "education inflation". Do you think a world where everyone is white collar and or in PS is a good thing?

There are also studies out there that are looking hard at how technology is going to have big impacts. Bigger than it already is, and more and more people out of work. Or spend years in school for worthless pieces of paper.

See the article I linked about "traditional male roles/industries".
Impacts daughter is in someways a bit of a victim. Shall we as I said, put the brakes on hiring more female RPNS/RNs because a shyte ton of men are losing jobs, and don't seem to gravitating towards more traditional "female" industries....You know, do the same kinds of things that at least in part are creating the problems......

Do note, Ms Wynne want to ensure University is free for kids whose parents gross less than 45. I got no arguments, especially having spent so much time in regent park growing up.

What about those in the middle class, helping to pay for it. And certainly don't have that much spare money laying around to send their own kids to University....and certainly don't have that much spare cash to down debt ( have you forgotten just how big that problem is) and sock money into RSPs/TFSAs......let alone the 3rd and almost always not even on the table for them

RESPs.

And lastly as I tried to say.
ok great you think thats the answer.
Funny you wouldn't talk to a 28yr old kids about your finances......yourself.....
Now imagine being a mom/dad going through divorce and all that means.
and talking to a highly "educated" kids about life.

In this day and age, my sons aged 26 and 31 know more about some things in life than I do. As far as I am concerned age, has little to do about how much you know about SOME things. Education is different, I would trust the opinion of someone with a degree over someone with similar practical experience and a diploma.

intellect in no way = wisdom and therein lies much of the problem. Wisdom is not available in Colleges and Universities, quite the opposite.

Back on topic....We should not allow any elections until the days after Income Tax day Apr. 30th.

That would solve a lot of issues with electing fiscal imbeciles, tax and spend political parties and cap and trade fools.

Agreed there is a difference between wisdom and knowledge. Wisdom comes from experience and you can't teach that in school. They are not mutually exclusive.

And yet G, you yourself won't go into a bank and get life/financial/tax advice..refuse to use those pimply faced highly educated peons who gross 40, 45, maybe 50k.....

Out of curiosity. Up to you if you answer or not.
1) How much do you pay your accountant. I pay mine $400 to make sure CRA never comes after me.
2) Are you aware ( Im sure you are) thats a credit on your return.

Now imagine you, your life. Don't forget I've been to your former employer, we both know what often happens to um, a good chunk of people who don't have enough.........

Forget all the advantages your pension grant you simply for showing up to work each day. Think about your life ( try to factor in things like inflation and other things like um, gee I don't know)
a) hows much fees for your plate renewals have gone up ( if not aware they've doubled in 5 years)
b) Hundreds of thousands of just ordinary people like yourself that yes, are having to choose between Hydro and food.

Do you think they have $400 each year to ensure they squeeze every last penny they can back....like you do.

Have $2,000 for someone like me to do a very basic rudimentary budget and short term ( 5 years) financial plan? Maybe they are your sons, or kind of like your sons. Things are tough but they are managing/getting by...your investment "advice" comes free. Very smart, very capable people take care of your pension for you...paid for by....


And they want children in the few years
would like to somehow find the 80,000 or so they need for a down payment on a war time bungalow..Nothing grand, just a place to hang their hat.
Oh, and because they want children
They want wills and to think about different kinds of Insurance and estate planning.

And have we talked about RSPs/TSFAs yet and the kinds of things people who maybe they to are feeling the pinch these days, and maybe they aren't in the sunshine/sunny days......

Not so strange after all, that yes people who are, I don't know what label to attach to them..."Well off", better off get alls kinds of um, help.
Those just a little further behind, facing further and further into debt, finding it harder and harder to find a few grand each year......

Me, i got no issues with trying to help people, we are taxed to the teeth. Somehow its always the working class that pays the prices, and is forgotten about.........

And yeah, we are seeing the signs of revolt...

And one last question.
You managed a pretty good life. Certainly not rich but a good solid life.
Did you spend 4 years in University? Maybe 40grand?
Do your former employers really only hire pedigreed people now?

JB without particulars I pay about that amount for my accountant services. About my former employer, I will tell you the amount of money you have does not determine if you end up there, but the amount of care needed. We had people with millions in the same room with those who only have OAP. Lets say it cost 2500.00 a month for a semi-private room. If your OA pension does not cover that amount ( it doesn't), and you have no assets the provincial government makes up the difference. If you try to take advantage of that and give away all your money to friends or family before you enter , that will not work because the gov. can go back three years to see who has that money, and can make them pay the difference the OAP does not cover. If you have no money of your own the gov. will also give you 140.00 a month to cover incidentals. Yes in Ontario the rich and poor get the same care, if you need it when you become infirm. Now the really really rich can drop 200 thousand a year for private nursing around the clock but we never saw that 1% in a home. Many famous and wealthy people ( the stories I could tell), spend their last days in government run long term care, because that the the best place for the care they need. No uni. for me, 3 colleges though. Yes you have a better chance of landing a job with a few letters behind your name.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Agreed there is a difference between wisdom and knowledge. Wisdom comes from experience and you can't teach that in school. They are not mutually exclusive.

---

Bottom line is that people assume attending/graduating College or University creates wisdom, knowledge and thinking. The fundamental flaw in that assumption is that not only can't graduates think, they haven't a clue what thinking is and confuse it with feeling. Look at the abortion of Prov. green energy and carbon tax, no real intelligent thought, just feeling and emotion. Now the chosen few make money while companies leave over costs and residents suffer.

Just heard Mattis announce that all Nato members have until the end of the year to meet the 2% GDP minimum that has been the norm since inception.

You know, I knew the answers to those questions before I asked them. That's one thing I do, after all these years Im still not sure if it's a good personality trait or not. ;) I ask questions. Often not "seeking answers". I wasn't really referring to any distinctions between those who end up there. But was referring to those who end up there without the money or assets/net worth...

$2,500 a month for a semi private room...remind us all about those under your care that spit in peoples faces, rant like mad lunatics and more.......I won't bother with inflation, Present Values, rates of return etc. Just basic simple
$2,500 X 12 X 25.........Would you wish that life on anyone?
And thats just a semi private room....
How much does it cost for um say, something a little upscale?
Would $4,000 a month sound about right?

And if you had to pull a number out of your hat, what do you think it cost the province...aka us... to care for those people who don't have 12 x $2,500 X 25......Maybe the father of those kids I know whose dad had an aneurysm and no disability Insurance..years ago he have simply remained dead.....good thing he atlas had the foresight to talk to someone about power of attorney and more ( like DNRs) .and nowhere near enough banked. He would be one of those working class stiffs.....

I can guarantee he never had the $ to well numerous things........................
re quotes that paragraph from the globe article about the "middle class" what's occurring, has been occurring for a long time.
and we can include as they are related "branches" off the same trunk, the parts delving into University degrees, a number of different industries, etc.

Cant wait for this years budgets, both provincial and federal.
Im sure Ms Wynne will try to wax eloquent about a number of things. Some things on the surface I might even agree with in some parts. Say for example 20% rebates for rural ontarians but no-one else, bout "damn time". Yes we all know it just means she will raise taxes elsewhere........Heck I even think its way past time she ( we) subsidize the cost of trying to get Nat Gas to more people. Shame she's only throwing 100,000 million at that, and best case scenario though Im no expert, it might be 10-20 years before those help arrives...........

But wow, we have the money to subsidize electric cars...what do they go for? $70,000 a piece by $15,000 each..
and um does anyone here think its the working class that will take advantage of that?

Regardless, if the ridiculous trudeau immigration/refugee policy isn't stopped there will be a very large under class that will include what was previously and once known as the Canadian middle class.

"Agreed R"

As I said, way back. I agree with "some" (aka it would be great to up the max TFSAs) but really it helps the wrong target as usual. Reducing the marginal rate to 20.5 does help the right target more. (Aka those that gross 45,000-75,00). Without splitting hairs "6 of one, half dozen of another" but one helps those who are really struggling a little bit more.

By no means does that mean I agree with everything, or as I said in the "whole" I don't totally agree with "mosquito"...

really, it comes down to "priorities". Just as the working stiffs have to prioritize what's more important to them. Put 5,000 aside for a TFSA/RSP, OR put that very hard to squirrel 5,000 if they can actually save that much, against their mortgage/Credit Line, OR simply bank it for a rainy day, say incase their 10 years old car dies.

as an aside the rule of thumb is everyone should have 3 months salary set aside for "rainy days"...
lol, that's not easy for people who gross far more than 50k............

we can only discuss the options, in the end they have to decide what's more important.

Kind of like our governments. Except their decisions are rarely about "what's more important" but rather "what will gain them some votes".....
And that goes for all.

so much has been written about the middle class, Boomers, record debt levels, more, jobs various industries.......The cost of post, and worthless pieces of paper...........

I guess giving ABC a cup of coffee ( like 15 grand for a toy car, or couples that gross north of 150k- 200k income splitting) is more important than the millions of hard working people and the elephant in the room, and or something better to look forward to than a semi-private room at Gs old place. And if people want to say " well then the working stiffs should be a little better with their money"....Um, shouldn't a couple that gross 125k..............Or I could name so much...Like people that gross 100k, and have DBPs.......

Trudea and Wynne want to enhance CPP because the vast majority don't have pensions, and aren't taken care of the way we take care of so many others. Ok great. A lot of people are going to need it.

2500 x 12 x 25

but maybe if they all examined why people can't save first..............

Priorites
and as the U.S. Rust belt/mid west clearly demonstrates. Well those working stiffs just aren't.......

Cant help myself.

In everyones favourite sensationalist rag today. Yes its a re-hash of the same report, just reworded (written for their readers....most media write for those with grade 10 English) and do note, they to are amongst the "institutions" few trust anymore.

Does anyone see the SUN, who by far is the most biased out there ( though every now and they unlike most others they call spades spades), saying the common man is sick of "Liberals", or that Harper and Cons aren't included? So just as we might ask who "are the middle class" these days, who are the "privaleged"

Well it's not hard to see who is low on the priority list and who usually always gets attention. Its not hard to see who is the upper 20% ( the haves) and whose seriously struggling..... Its kind of like or similar to every saying how important the planet is and we need to do more...Yet when it comes to decide where to direct ever dwindling money, funny, the MNRF/MoE are at the bottom of the food chain.

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/15...canadas-elites

Boy ..... I have no idea where to start or not with where this thread has gone .....

I guess I will wander into the education part, many would be much farther ahead if they just read "The Wealthy Barber" (there is a new updated version out I saw awhile ago).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

Cant help myself.

In everyones favourite sensationalist rag today. Yes its a re-hash of the same report, just reworded (written for their readers....most media write for those with grade 10 English) and do note, they to are amongst the "institutions" few trust anymore.

Does anyone see the SUN, who by far is the most biased out there ( though every now and they unlike most others they call spades spades), saying the common man is sick of "Liberals", or that Harper and Cons aren't included? So just as we might ask who "are the middle class" these days, who are the "privaleged"

Well it's not hard to see who is low on the priority list and who usually always gets attention. Its not hard to see who is the upper 20% ( the haves) and whose seriously struggling..... Its kind of like or similar to every saying how important the planet is and we need to do more...Yet when it comes to decide where to direct ever dwindling money, funny, the MNRF/MoE are at the bottom of the food chain.

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/15...canadas-elites

---

TFSA is not well used.
http://www.moneysense.ca/save/invest...st-not-wisely/
http://www.rbcroyalbank.com/tfsa/tfsa-waystouse.html

The political elites are the biggest consumers of their own kool-aid (I glanced back and may owe JBen a bit of an apology, trying to do too many things at one time and not reading careful enough.... or after reading I may choose to argue more on some of the needles in the haystack :silly: ) when it comes to their policies and they deliberately are trying to create divisiveness for their own gain. Middle Income vs Upper vs Low income, East Vs West, French vs English ...... all while dumping perhaps 100,000 (the increase not the usual amount) under educated new immigrants/refugees into the overloaded system and into Canada's economy and many onto the welfare roles.

Ex. Quebec own's Canada and are best politicians (Empirically false B.S. from Justin Truedope! Quebec is equalization charity case each and every year)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA1yCIHMJwY

MNR doesn't even rank up there high enough to keep the minimum they are entitled to. (Missing $70,000,000)
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...lers-disappear


The budget is just one of many nightmares I see rolling in soon from the Liberals.

My $.05 ..... I have to get back to T4's (already did mine, yuck, 1/2 of what it was 4 years ago, I'm back in the Middle again) and financial projections .... (I hate this time of year) .... time to put Thousand Foot Crutch on and focus ....:shades:

Bah.
After 30 years on Bay Street, you don't survive there if you don't have thick skin. Doesn't mean I won't "bite back".

Wealthy Barber. yep a good read.
So is.
https://www.amazon.ca/When-Genius-Fa.../dp/0375758259

Mosquito.
One of the reasons I keep asking the question "who is the middle class". While I believe we can certainly quantify it these days, because there is absolutely no arguing that segment is both shrinking and taking it on the chin, isn't it in essence more of subjective thing, that describes a large segment of society and what they aspire to?........In a couple of the links I provided, it goes into that. An astonishing number of American Millionaires define themselves as "middle class"...Or as the poet Whitman quoted............


"Statistically" the most common measure is the statistical mean. Averages distort numbers, and "net worth" is very misleading.
My income isn't even close to half of what it was 8 years ago, let alone 2 years ago. Ask me if I care. Im out of the insanity and bs which includes the rat race and trappings of modern day life.

What follows is far more subjective, "arguable", and I hope some latitude is given where something might not be phrased oh so perfectly.

I would, yes I certainly would say that amongst other things we have "killed the American Dream". The aspirations of the middle class who typically don't give 2 shytes about big monster homes in the burbs, corporate ladders, and prefer a "simpler life". Don't want to feel as though they have to have 3 letters behind their names to have good, solid, lives...........Dont care if when they retire (if its actually within reach for many these days ) if they are travelling the world, they just hope they don't end up in a semi private room in a home.....and more I might add/say

Really, not unlike the peons from a couple hundred years ago, in Maries day when the ruling class.......

Libs have defined middle class as having the capacity to provide decent housing, quality of life, and a good education for their families, while saving for a dignified retirement.

The libs consider that the above can all be achieved anywhere from $44,700 to $89,401.

I don't see that happening nor do I see that as realistic in today's economy.

Generally govs take somewhere like 75% and 150% of the mean income to determine the middle.
Sometimes net worth is used as many taxpayers have equity in homes, however as home prices explode less can afford that potential equity asset. That fact coupled with less jobs push people out of the middle AND even make the poor poorer and even more worse off.

In times like today, companies that make money hold it until they see what Jr. does and what effect looming trade variables will have on their bottom line so in reality they "make money" and horde capital to the further deyriment of hiring and raises. They take capital but release none, not a good sign for economic growth.

• Save for Retirement
  If you have maximized your Registered Retirement Savings Plan (RRSP) contribution room, use a TFSA to complement your RRSP. A TFSA gives you a second source of funds in retirement that you can withdraw at any time without tax consequences. You can also earn tax-free returns even if you don’t have the earned income required to make an RRSP contribution. And you can contribute at any age once you become an adult.
  ****************
  Had a moment to read the 2 links.
  Maxing an RSP in any given year will mean having 18% of your gross income under your mattress. In "real" terms for someone that earns 50,000. That means sitting on $9,000. In real terms, that means having probably somewhere around 50% of all possible disposable income ( after taxes and bills). Aka of the roughly $20,000 that goes to discretionary spending, your earmarking HALF to savings. The last year my daughter was in Gynmanstics not counting travel/lodging expenses for ourselves I think the cost was $5,000. Heck, it cost $16,000 for both of them to get braces years ago.........
  
  
  What percentage of people ( I truly don't know and kind of wish when people aka writers and banks put this stuff together they included the "whole picture") are really ever able to max their RSPs. Any unused room also carries forward......
  
  So I wonder, just who the RBC is "speaking to" when they say. Wow, did you know that if you max your RSP ( say $20,000) and defer 30% of the income taxes, you can also sock even more into a TFSA if you haven't also maxed your RESP? :) Consider just this. When you get your tax return in May having deferred 30% of $20,000 ( roughly 6,500) you can now max your TFSA for that calendar year....omg look at you go.........
  
  Words can be a little tricky.
  Growth in your RSP is "tax free" to. If you make it to retirement, then and only then is it taxed. There no capital gains tax, theres no tax on the dividends, theres no tax on the interest. It to, just like the money in a TFSA grows tax free and compounds. I forget the exact rate but the effective tax on dividends is around 16% and Interest 22%. That to isn't taxed until in theory and hopefully many years later when depending on various things your annual income will be somewhere between $45,000 and $90,000 and subject to 20.5% fed income tax...
  
  Again simply to "illustrate" and this is not entirely dead on accurate either
  You have $1,000 you can direct to an RSP and get $300 back right then and there, you can direct it to a TFSA.
  
  Two different people go each way. They both buy X and it cost them $10/share. It yields in dividends 5% and does so for 10 years and over the 10 years it doubles from $10/share to $20/share when at age 65 and take the cash to go on a trip to sunny Florida to celebrate winning at the game of life.
  
  In the RSP
  $1,000 worth of X is now $2,000.
  10 years of dividends yielding 5%/year has accumulated $500
  $2,500
  Its taxed at 20% or $500 goes to the government leaving that person.
  $2,000 ( plus the $300 they got back in year 1)
  $2,300
  
  In the TFSA
  $1,000 worth of X is now worth $2,000
  10 years of 5% yield dividends has accumulated $500
  $2,500
  
  What did you do with the $300 you got back 10 years ago.
  Did you use that to buy your child some much needed hockey equipment?
  Did you invest it in stock X where it to doubled to 600 and you received $150 more in dividends for a total amount of $750
  
  Was that in an unregistered account?
  Capital gains tax applies to 50% of the gain and the dividends are taxed at 16%
  
  Was it in a TFSA where its sheltered.
  
  Person one goes to Florida with $3,050
  Person two goes to Florida with $2,500
  
  Are we absolutely certain TFSAs are better than RSPs?
  Answer
  Depends

The libs consider that the above can all be achieved anywhere from $44,700 to $89,401.

And we will tell you that in order to have a similar lifestyle, not the same but similar. You want 70-75% of your annual income during your working years.

So lets assume your a working stiff with no Pension. I am going to ignore CPP/OAS, I am going to ignore inflation.

75% of $60,000. Your target is $45,000 of income a year during retirement.
How long do you hope to live before its gone? Statistics tells us men are living 22 years, women 25 years.
Whats a reasonable rate of return? Well depends on your risk tolerance. What is that? Thats a different long discussion, not what most think it is.

Lets use 4% so you aren't losing ground to inflation.

How much do want in the bank the day you retire?
$702,993.59

or you could just rent a room where G used to work because the cost is about the same.

Next logical question...OMGF!! how, how the hell can we save that much....How, how can we possibly. When Im taxed up the ying yang taking care of everyone and everything else....
BNS says "Don't worry your richer than you think you are.
:)

How much do you have in the bank now?
How many years are we talking about before you hope to retire
Lets have a look at your budget, lets have a look at your income, taxes..literally Im asking you to tell me everything about your life. Divorced?
Alimony payments?
What other goals in life do you have. Would you like a vacation every 5 years or so?
How are your parents? Do you want to care of them in their golden years? Will you need to??

Whew, you have some savings, you have some home equity your jobs secure.
What? What do you mean your afraid things are on thin ice.....Well we can help there to.

but honestly don't worry.
Theres 20 years until you hope to retire and now that the kids are off to University getting their pedigrees so they to can join the Burgois, its ok.

You've got 60,000 saved. You just need to come up with another 650,000
Easy peasy.
For the next 20 years you just have to save $21,828 each year.
oops sorry, don't worry. CPP and OAS are going to help.
Based on your years in Canada, and contributing to society etc combined they will get you about
$12,000 a year. So we really don't need to find $650,000, nor save $22,000 a year.

You really only need to find a source of about 30,000 year in your golden years.
:)

Is it really that bad....No.
However......

Jben, your analysis and figures are pretty well accurate. Financial planning is very important and people nowadays throw it out like four sails to the wind. The mentality is spend today, enjoy life and the government will take care of us when the need arises. That is a serious problem living in a welfare socialist state. The bubble will burst simply because we have over extended ourselves. I was fortunate enough to marry a great gal 32 years ago who signs her name with the credentials CPA. I would not even know how to fill out a simple tax return but fortunately she has guided our modest life pretty darn close to retirement now. The planning started 3 decades ago. Food for thought!

I /like

hehe (designations).
Dont get me "wrong" but really, speaking in generalist terms, they like many things are devalued. Dont mean what they used to. And oddly enough the paper cost ( if not social cost) hes as Werner said inflated (grossly).

True Story. Just happened this morning. My GF, my sister could verify any of this.
Find out my 24 year old niece (great young girl) is shortlisted for being hired as a financial advisor. I had to use great care initially with my sister to ensure she understoood I wasn't slagging her daughter/my niece. Thankfully my sister being being a couple years older than I, completely understood. What does she know about "life", about divorce, about being a parent and now huge bills for a child...for life....or "getting your affair in order" and so many more thing....Maybe a child/spouse get into a car accident and it's life altering....

about budgeting ( she's just moving out on her own now), the cost of food, insurance, the myriad of investment vehicles, the options out there. For some X will be the "right choice", for Y, and so much more...
What was 1 part of the process...give us 50 names of people you know and do a market analysis. Go read some of the job postings I linked Over and over you will see " increase share of the wallet".

Translation, ok we have their day to day banking, maybe you've talked to them about credit and many types of credit, pros cons, why this or that might be right for them (and in many cases it is)...We want more of the wallet, get them to buy Life Insurance from us, we dont care if they already have enough and the extra premiums....wallet share...

I know a lot about tax law, know quite a bit about family law, estate planning and even some more trickier stuff about small business, succession planning, laws and tax treatment for sole proprietary and more......
Doesnt mean Im a CPA or CFA, or a family lawyer

/sigh

hopefully by the time we are worm food, some things will straighten out

Jr blames global corporate elites for public anger over things like economy, says [COLOR=#191919]"It's time to pay a living wage, to pay your taxes, and to give your workers the benefits – and peace of mind – that come with stable, full-time contracts."

Gee Jr, can you say Crown Corps, Green energy BS, International funding, and Carbon Tax.

Lecture much? How about you pay your NATO tab? I am weary of paying for you and your children's protection as he shruuged and told Merkel there are other ways to measure NATO contribution.

You just can't make up this kind of political stupidity.

#clueless
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/trudeau-merkel-germany-nato-spending/article34065401/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&

I was watching news feeds from Europe,tonight,where JT was speaking to E C members about CETA and NATO commitments etc. and he actually didn't sound too bad according to Mrs Trimmer. Then,I thought,it's really easy to appear to be a decent,knowledgable guy when you're preaching to the choir of dedicated leftist government reps from European countries who have quite clearly drank too much left wing Kool-Aid. CTVNews actually reported that some Euros called him a handsome Canadian Kennedy. JEEZUS,I fackin' near lost it,then.

The way I see it we are doomed to years of Trudough. He is a global celebrity and has Canadians duped. Scary that eh. What we need to do now is work on getting Wynne either thrown in jail or out of office. The Provincial Libranos will screw you children and grandchildren like nothing else. They truly are a menace to our future well being. The hydro sale alone will permanently hurt everybody's standard of living now. It can't be reversed. A new government can kill the carbon tax fraud though.

The Hydro sale can be reversed. Just means the province has to buy the shares back on the open market at whatever the market price is.<br><br>but yep.&nbsp;<br>Another indication just how screwed up things are.<br><br>thousands and thousands of GTA ERs losing their Shute over Trump. Marching, filling social media.<br><br>meanwhile in their own backyard.<br>/crickets

Sell the Hydro to private corporation(s), set up a Public Utility Commission to police and set max hydro profits at 9-14% and never look back.

The PUC determines what the revenue rate for each Power Company should be for the value of their assets, equity financing , cost of debt, and administrating /operating expenses.

The PUC also looks at and approves a Corporation's power generating/supply plan to an area and only approves their entry into that area when their service, revenue and costs balance reasonable ROE and consumer affordability.

Get the government out of your lives at any and every opportunity as much as possible or at least to a manageable level of a handful of utility commissioners on a PUC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skypilot

Sell the Hydro to private corporation(s), set up a Public Utility Commission to police and set max hydro profits at 9-14% and never look back.

The PUC determines what the revenue rate for each Power Company should be for the value of their assets, equity financing , cost of debt, and administrating /operating expenses.

The PUC also looks at and approves a Corporation's power generating/supply plan to an area and only approves their entry into that area when their service, revenue and costs balance reasonable ROE and consumer affordability.

Get the government out of your lives at any and every opportunity as much as possible or at least to a manageable level of a handful of utility commissioners on a PUC.

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i just can't trust this government to enter into contracts/arrangements with private companies. I see nothing but secret bribes and corruption coming of it. The last thing we need is another corrupt source of re-election funding for Wynne. She already has OPSEU and the teachers guaranteeing her campaign finances.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by terrym

i just can't trust this government to enter into contracts/arrangements with private companies. I see nothing but secret bribes and corruption coming of it. The last thing we need is another corrupt source of re-election funding for Wynne. She already has OPSEU and the teachers guaranteeing her campaign finances.

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I can't argue with that Terry. When it gets as bad as the voters have allowed it to get here in Moronto, Bantario, it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy of self induced fornication.

Normally, a Federal oversight commission could repair the Prov. corruption wrt critical infrastructure but with PM Compulsive Spender in Ottawa, no realistic help there.