Printable View
Hey folks,
I live in a 1750 sq ft bungalow (with basement, double that). I am considering a generator for backup power during power outages. How large of a unit should I be considering in terms of maximum watts to operate my gas furnace, appliances such as a stove, microwave, fridge/freezer (including a small deep freezer) and my well pump?
what brands should I look at for reliability ease of use and fairly quiet operation?
Thanks!!
If you don't try running an electric stove, clothes dryer or a/c then 5000w continuous rating could work. You can get sizing guides on-line from manufacturer's sites. I assume you are thinking of a portable - if so you will need at transfer switch. Easiest to use with a portable is the Generlink which goes on your meter box.
Fuel is an issue with portables using gasoline. You can never seem to stockpile enough and when it's a big blackout you can't get any from gas stations.
If you have natural gas supply I recommend getting a permanent automatic generator. More $ but quieter, worry-free. That's what I switched to last year. Big enough to run everything in the house is 15,0000 W.
Kind of in the same boat Splaker. I think I want one just for emergency b/u, but first need to determine what I would want it for.
Seasonally:
Winter months Id likely be most concerned about heat and water pump.
Summer months Id be concerned about the freezer/fridge and water pump.
Shoulders less concerned about all except the pump.
If I we were without power for 3+ days in winter I could generate heat in the house by other means, whether thats the Propane stove, or a secondary heat source (adding a wood/propane fireplace). Not ideal but should be able to keep pipes from freezing. And if in summer "worst" case would be the loss of some frozen food.
The one thing I can't do a lot about is the pump so am thinking I might see if I can get and add a propane genny (maybe solar).
Permanent isn't really necessary. We lost power yesterday for 15 hours. That is the most I can recall since the ice storm of 2013. Rarely do we lose power for more than 3 hours. House got a bit chilly be we survived! The problem is water. Can't flush.. heat could also be a big issue if we lost power for more than 10 hours during really cold periods. We haven't had a winter this year so it wasn't too bad... Btw, we have a natural gas range so electric stove isn't an issue...
When I'm ready Im going to look hard at a Propane Genny. Im thinking it just needs to be able to run the pump, fridge. Depends on whether or not we pull the trigger on a secondary heat source by adding Propane fireplace ($5,000). There are some solar options out there as well and if we go that that route would just want a Genny ( or battery bank) that capable of running just the pump/fridge for a few days.
5k is plenty big, I have a 3k for emergency backup and it will run the furnace, fridge and freezer but admittedly we are on city water. Glad to have it but we've only needed it 2 or 3 times in 5 years, it was a $300 Champion from TSC. Generlink is a good idea but I think it requires your genny to be placed close to your meter ? Not great for everybody as they become hot items in an extended outage....
Security is an issue no matter what transfer switch you use to connect your portable. The noise will broadcast it's presence to everyone. Use a good lock and chain/cable.Quote:
Originally Posted by 73hunter
You can get propane generators by Champion. Propane doesn't go stale like gasoline. If you just want a stand-by for 24 hours or less then a few 20lb tanks will get you by.
In any case be careful about exhaust fumes getting into your house - don't run it in an attached garage. For insurance coverage and safety's sake have transfer switch installed by licenced electrician.
There is lots you can do with a 3,000 watt generator to survive for a few days. If you simply hook up a 120 volt cord to your furnace if on natural gas or propane you will have plenty of heat. It only takes a few amps of electricity. It will also run your sump pump and a few lights. All you need is a couple of 100 feet extension cords and power bars.
Cooking? You can do just about anything on a bar-b-q.
Most outages occur in colder temperatures so your food should keep. If not put it in plastic bins on the back deck. If it is summer than plug in your fridge instead of the furnace. Water is available for flushing toilets, cooking and drinking. Everyone has a 30 gallon reservoir called a hot water tank. Simply put a pail under the lower faucet and your good for a few days. You can even enjoy a sponge bath if you really feel like one...lol
Biggest problem with generators is gas consumption and ensuring that your stockpile on hand is kept fresh. With the few power outages we get in Ontario it is a challenge and like someone mentioned a nearby supply may not be available if it is a region wide event.
Years of camping, deer and moose camps have thought me that you can survive quite comfortably with very little electricity.
We had an outage in late December that lasted 8 hours. From 4pm until Midnight, outside temp was right around zero. By the time we went to sleep the house had dropped from 71 to 67. So not "too bad".
yep, years of camping....
I had my small 150 watt solar generator out and running two 3 watt led lanterns within minutes. Also kept our phones charged.
The camp stove made our tea and dinner (though we could have just as easily cooked on the propane stove).
Etc
We've since added a couple water containers to the cold cellar. The lack of water for those hours was very fortunate, made us realize it's the one thing we can't do a lot about.
Being on a propane furnace gives us a couple options. We have two, 500g tanks so would have "lots", for the furnace/stove. The lowest they've gotten before top up is 20%. So am thinking a "smallish" Propane Generator could fire the furnace, water pumps and sumps.plus I always have two 20g for the BBQ.
Thanks guys, will check the TSC when the time comes.
Don't forget if you're going to hook up the stove you'll need a genny that does both 240 and 120. Some deep well pumps also run on 240.
Yes, no doubt the generator noise will tell the whole neighbourhood that you have one, but I still feel much better running it in a fenced backyard or out the back of the garage...out of sight. Remember for a lot of people, the meter may be at the opposite end of the house, do you really want to drag a generator through the snow to run it ? And have to choose between dragging it out when you want to run it or leaving it out overnight ? Not me. If you have to pay an electrician anyway have a plug wired into the garage and run the genny in the most convenient spot
We have found that the first thing to look at is your water pump. Is it a 220v deep well pump or a 110 volt jet pump. Either one can run with a suitable 4kw genny IF they are converted to a plug in cord feed. Even my geothermal only needs 2.5 kW to run but we have wood heat with pumps and fans that take a lot less.
If you have toys like ATVs, sleds, boats, riding lawn mowers, etc then you can rotate your stockpile of gas as long as you have a place to store it. Most of our local stations have generator backup.
A few extension cords and power bars will let you plug in things like fridges, TV's and computers.
I do not know any furnaces that run off a 120VAC outlet, furnaces are hard wired into place, so in most cases you are SOL for your furnace unless you have things hooked up with a transfer switch.
A transfer switch will cost you about $1000 installed, maybe more, but then you can hook up your generator to your whole house if you have a 240VAC generator. I am looking into a genny like this, most likely going to have to get a 5500-7500W unit to get the 240VAC that I need.
There are other options, if I were to build a new rural home I would get a propane backup Generac generator installed on building, but then again I may also build off grid and not worry about their blackouts.
Let me clarify. You go to the on/off switch that all furnaces have installed. Undo the wires going to the furnace and pig tail in a 120 volt cord. Proceed and plug into the generator. Easy / peasy and sure beats freezing. A five minute job. Also, you are not introducing any current into the rest of the house distribution panel. Any handy man can do this and there is no law preventing a homeowner from doing this simple bypass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
PS: Did you know that if your furnace is red tagged by an HVAC company and the gas supply shut off you can turn it back on instead of freezing and get a second opinion. Just make sure that you have a working CO2 detector nearby to monitor the air quality.
Got this information from a licensed G1 tech. Prevents fraudulent repairs and bad purchases based on emotions.
Edit: A safety tip when running your generator. If you look closely on the unit you will find a grounding lug. Take the time to drive a stake in the ground and attach a good size wire. Otherwise you have a floating neutral and if you inadvertently get shocked by an appliance well you are now the path of least resistance. It can kill you!
Originally we had a sub panel and separate generator. It was a bit clumsy opening up certain identified circuits, We looked at a propane generac system but that was approx. 9k installed even though we are on natural gas. In the end we updated the generator with a 7800w model and a generlink at the smart meter.
Much simpler and effective for about $1800.
been twenty years or more but in one of my past lives as an electrician I used to disconnect the "hardwiring " from water pumps, furnaces and any other appliances and feed them from regular plug in cords. With the new style "rental" furnace scams it might be a questionable practice however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
All you had to do in a power outage was run an extension cord to the pump, furnace, etc and plug them in to the cord instead of the outlet on the wall....
Lots of great info in this thread! Been thinking of getting a generator.
Likewise, I have discovered that my cheap Champion 3500 watt generator will suffice. My first priority in an outage, is to make sure my sump pump has power. Secondly, in the winter, I need heat to keep things from freezing, and in the summer, need to keep things from thawing. My BBQ is only a couple steps outside my patio door, and is used year round. I keep extra tanks on hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by impact
I fill all my gas containers every fall, and add fuel stabilizer. If not needed for my generator, through the course of snowblowing, ATVing, and grass cutting, I use them up and refill.Quote:
Originally Posted by patvetzal
I have expanded upon this and installed an outlet and made an electrical adapter specifically for my furnace. As well, we have a gas fireplace on our main floor for heat.Quote:
Originally Posted by impact
Attachment 34596
I think a problem is that many people want to live their life with no interruption if the power fails. If you have no power, forget about the computer, the satellite tv, etc. and focus on what is needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by impact
Exactly......Quote:
Originally Posted by delmer
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...a/IMG_0618.jpg
In this day and age I would include our "smart phones" as critical. Have fun making a call for help (say for fire if your CO2 alarm goes off)........or a heart attack or slip and fall....
I believe in having options and not putting all eggs in one basket.
I have had the yeti years, and more than once have considered a bigger unit. I bring it with me anytime I'm in the bush for "this or that". I bring it to hunt camps, so i don't have to fire up the Genny at 4am for lights and wake other people up, etc, etc, etc. At 150 watts I have power to run 3 watt led lights for days from a full charge. I can charge multiple phones, or run something a little larger. Just depends on how many watts the something draws. if its trickle charging I can go days.............................................. ..........The largest unit (1,250watts, they claim can power a fridge).....
http://www.goalzero.com
Re "furnace".
Being the son of a firefighter, I learned many years ago not to muck around more than I have to with wiring.
How much would it cost to have that set up to switch over. Well at the very least I'd need a large generator.
$3,000 gets us a Propane fireplace that doesn't need power with more than enough BTU to the house comfortable, and $4,000 a wood or pellet stove ( problem for us is clearance and venting)....Then another $1,000-$2,000 in finishing work be it a mantel or other.....
So at least for me/us.
Water pump is the critical. Our sumps (we have 2 for redundancy) are important but less so for us given a couple things.
Definitely worth picking up a generator, just a question of how large and what do you want (need) it to run. I keep around 30L of gas that I use in various things. In winter my snowblower is a pig, so no worries about it going stale. But if its been a while since Ive had to replenish my gas, I just pour whatever is in storage into my vehicle, then go get more........
If we think back to the blackout of 2004. How long did gas stations last......hours.
So besides not being reliable during an extended outage, if it comes to that. I'd prefer to keep my 30L for my vehicles, incase of emergency and not using it to power a few lights or something thats not critical.
If you have natural gas, you might want to look into Generac whole house systems. Once set up they automatically kick in and you wont even notice the power went out. If installed properly (by qualified electrician), they have disconnect boxes between supplier and system and fully automated.
If no natural gas, then go with a 5K genny. The easiest way to figure out your draw (amp ratings) is to read the electrical tag with each appliance. Furnace, Pumps, fridge ect. You have to remember that not all will run at the same time. Also, each appliance a starting surge rating, especially the well pumps and sump pumps. If you can figure out those loads (Amps), it will help you size a generator for your needs.
Most well/sump pumps have a shut off switch or plug. In times of outages, you can manually cycle these on and off as needed until power returns.
In this current high energy prices I have been providing advice to rural power consumers with NG/LPG about reducing cost and installing a whole house geny with a battery bank to supplement continues low draw usage. What that means is using a genny to charge a battery bank (2200 APH average), that provides daily power needs. You only run the genny to charge battery bank or during high power needs.
The cost benefits to rural users is very attractive right now, especially for those NG on property.
Wish we had NG here M. Would make things so much easier and cheaper. Instead I'm looking to solar and batter banks more and more.
Yes, because the lights on in a dark neighborhood wouldn't do that........:tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by pinepointer
I've got a Champion 5Kw genny at the house. Now to be fair, we have a NG dryer, and stove, so our electricity usuage is already pretty low, but it has never had an issue.
I start it 2x per year, and run it up to temp. I also make sure the tank is kept full, and a liberal amount of Sea Foam is always applied. Two pull start, every time.
I have to go with the assumption that nobody knows what they are doing and they cannot do things safely, that is the default.Quote:
Originally Posted by impact
If you do what you are saying and it is someone who has no knowledge and burns down their house due to an electrical problem then they are SOL for insurance.
I told my wife that if the power goes out we will just drain the water, turn off the breakers and leave, in the winter the only thing that can break are water pipes and with no water we have no problems.
The bigger issue is the ton of extension cords to all areas of the house for critical components but anything over 2500W will get you by, 5000W is ideal and 7500W is the max for most house transfer switches.
You can also look at a UPS system for your furnace and any other critical components, they will kick on automatically and just need to be sized to your component and the batteries will only give you so much time.
Line052, I would be worried about the natural gas supply in a large scale outage, they have backups for pumps but nothing is perfect. If you are oil or propane the Generac automatic generators are great, you would not really know you ran out of power but they are not portable and not cheap.
LOL. That right there...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
In a previous life when I did renovations for a lot of folks, most of my work was doing plumbing. I'd see some of the electrical work done by owners, and it was scary. I'd often offer to have a look, or make recommendations for an electrician. The owner would usually refuse, and say it was ok, and that they didn't mind electrical, but plumbing was beyond their abilities.
LOL, electrical screw up, people get hurt, people die, houses burn; ..........Plumbing screw up, where's the shut off, and hand me the shop vac / mop.....
I don't mind doing some plumbing. Its really hard to screw that up large. Some wiring I'll do, however I know my limits. Things are a lot better these days, but the most common cause of house fires..........
If you want "eye" openers talk to any fire fighters you know.
People thinking they know what they are doing.
I have a master electrician in the family, and on occasion have had to call him. There has been an occasion where even he was stumped for a few moments and ultimately advised me to wait until he could get out, test a few things, figure out what the electrician that ran the wiring when the house was built did.
Don't get it myself.
It's like many things. There are some things I need a mechanic for. Some things I need an accountant for, some things I need a FA for, etc.
nothing can ruin your life like thinking your qualified to major or complex wiring.
Is $100 or $200 even as much as a deductible?
JBEN email me at [email protected]. I have been giving presentation on going off the grid, A Practical Guide. Feel free to ask any questions and I will email you powerpoint presentation. 45 Slides. I would suggest you join Living off the Grid on Facebook that I am an ADMIN in/for.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
My neighbor has a large stationary generator that provides whole house power, (his hot tub even stays powered!). Every Thursday afternoon it automatically starts and runs for 30 minutes as part of a maintenance cycle. I believe it is on a 2 or 3 minute delay to start after power goes out.Quote:
Originally Posted by line052
Will do M. Once I have a steady source of income again, we have plans for a few things, until then a little here and a little there. Have a friend that recently moved out of the city and he to, is planning over some years to eventually be entirely off grid and/or mainly self sufficient. He's looking at building battery banks as one way to get there.
Re electrical.
If you know what your doing, great. But even then Id be careful if you don't know what someone did 20 years ago, or 40 years or the last guy that owned the house that tried to save a few bucks............
Isn't that why you hire an inspector to go over the home before purchase?Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
After you move in it then becomes your very own fxxx-up's.....lol
As for myself, I regularly work with 150KV / 80 KW generators, yes that is 150,000 volts with 80,000 watts.
Now you know how much power is required for an x-ray to penetrate the chest of a large man.
120 volts is just a tickle....lol
Ha ha ha ha, sorry but inspectors cannot even take a panel off to see if there is aluminum wiring, it is dumb.Quote:
Originally Posted by impact
All of the stuff I have found in my house after paying for an inspector, they did nothing for me except tell me that my roof was ok and that I did not have vermiculite in my attic, that is all.
lmao Impact.
When we were house shopping we looked at ( bid on one) two houses that had aluminum wiring. Had the family member thats a ME come back for a return showing before the bidding war on the Monday. Luckily a good chunk of the basement was unfinished and he could see a lot. He felt we'd be ok getting it, but until and unless we wanted to rip down a lot of dry wall on the main floor....who knows what some pervious owner did.................Most people these days still insert copper wire into the female on light and recepticle outlets rather than do it properly and use the screws.....
Place we bought we used a company out of Peterborough to do the inspection ( lets not forget the vast majority these days sell and buy without inspections) . Rather than just one or two guys that advertise being "inspectors", this company sends an army of tradesmen.
We showed up at 8:45
At 9:00 we had
1 plumber
1 carpenter
1 HVAC
1 general contractor
1 water ( water system, well and septic)
1 Master Electrician
Going through the house like an army of ants. My agent whom I trust implicitly was even impressed and Im guessing she's seen everything....
I am actually surprised you were allowed to do this, I was told they could not take anything apart, mind you I had a septic inspection and I should have checked the well before buying as well but it is safe to drink, just crappy regeneration rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
Not sure of all the rules Fox, but yeah those guys did everything they could within the rules.
All taps were tested, water samples taken. The front yard dug up, sceptic checked careful including flow rate. Well and water system tested.
The Carpenter and general guy checked the bones and roof/attic as well as a couple other things.
The electrical not sure exactly what the Master Electrician was doing the whole time, I was mostly sticking near the water guys and HVAC because they were on forced air electric and I was swapping that out to Propane so wanted to ensure there were going to be no "hiccups" with the gas lines, the electrical or duct work.
so back to backup generators....
what "could" be done, although perhaps not legal is install a 240V twist-lock plug in your garage and use it to backfeed your panel, and have an electrician make you up a double-male ended extension cord.....this can be really unsafe if the wrong person tried to use it, but perfectly safe if the proper steps are taken, one of the most important steps being to LOCK OUT THE MAIN BREAKER to avoid back-feeding the power grid.
some will criticize this but it can be done safely
Not going to confirm, nor deny that....but it is what happens in a few cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by 73hunter
Of course creating a male-to-male cord is strictly verboten as far as code goes.....but it's not terribly difficult.
Can things like this be done, yes, but you have a lot of chances to screw things up and cost a lot of money in the process, at minimum.Quote:
Originally Posted by 73hunter
There are male outlets used in the RV world, I believe they have these in 240 VAC twist lock as well as 120 VAC, so then you would not need a male to male extension cord but the worry of back feeding the power grid is a very significant one.
Back feeding the grid is dangerous, but if locking out the main breaker makes it safe for an electrician to work on the house wiring when the other side (grid) is energized, then the reverse should also be considered safe. The big IF is remembering to lock it out, which is why following a written procedure is important.
"LOCK OUT / TAG OUT" is our mantra.
I did my yearly refresher safety course last week.
I am thinking about the people beyond line of sight that would come looking for the source....
Ever had someone cut off your lock? My brother has, he lost it.Quote:
Originally Posted by impact
One of our crews had the factory owners son come in one hot weekend and wanted his AC working so he cut the lock and threw the switch. Just lucky the fuses had been pulled as well .Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I have multiple panels and swung all crucial circuits onto one so it could be locked off before backfeeding it with the genny. The other panels were left on so we could tell when the power was restored. Probably been five years since I bothered with the big genny. The last planned outage it was propane lantern and BBQ....
During a major outage in Oshawa area my son ran an old Chevelle to keep his UPS running. Most of his lighting was either curly tube or LED. All his neighbours were stopping in for hot coffee and news updates...
Unauthorized removal of a lockout devise by someone other than the device's owner will get you fired where I work. There is a protocol involved to remove someone else's lock, and it involves approval from several people. In this case, bureaucracy is good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
These are my lock out / tag out tools. Due to the high KV I work with it is mandatory that there is a disconnect in the same room as the generator. I also carry a big stick should anyone dare to break the protocol....;)
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...a/IMG_0620.jpg
So basically what you guys are saying is.
If unsure about the wiring in the house, which creates this crazy birds nest at the one or two panels. if unsure if theres aluminum wiring in a 30 year old house (back when it was code) If unsure what current building codes are (which would negate your insurance ), if unsure what we are talking about, how to do it safely (and within code).
Figure out what you need to run and run that from a Generator. Considering how many people run pool pumps off extension cords, or other high draw tools and don't know why the code for a GFI is 5feet?
Hire someone that does, if you want to do much more than plug a couple things into one.
:)
I have 60 amp 120/240V subpanel with all mission critical circuits on it. That panel can be fed from either a generator or the utility.
Switch over is a manual operation. The 200 amp building disconnect is connected by a steel bar to the generator disconnect so that it is physically impossible for both to be in the "on" position at the same time. As long as that bar is in place it is not possible to back feed. Only real disadvantage is you can't tell when the power is restored. You have to physically switch back to the utility a couple times a day to check.
Generator feed is a 4 prong 120/240 Hubbel style connector on a cord located in a PVC weather proof box on the side of the house.
In the last 10 years we have used it 4 times. Twice for outages of 7 days and twice for outages of 2-3 days.
Both of the 7 day outages were due to ice storms in the last 3 years.
I didn't see anywhere in this thread mention of the system for a generator hookup where you have an electrician meet up with a Hydro worker at your house, they disconnect your power and remove the meter head, the electrician adds a small ring behind the meter to which you can plug your genny in when you have a power failure, and Hydro reinstalls their meter head. It all takes just a few minutes, and when the power does go out and come back on, if you are running a genny there is no problem with backfeeeding. I believe the cost is well under$2k and the good part is it is an approved alteration, not some fly by the seat of your pants job cause you are out of power .
John
I'm sure you can get a properly installed transfer switch for much less than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjyb
That is the way it's done at the farmQuote:
Originally Posted by patvetzal
Right on!
Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
It's called a GenerLink. I used one to connect my portable generator and it worked well as long as you had enough gasoline to fuel the generator. Close to about $1k plus installation. Traded it in when I bought a permanent natural gas stand-by generator from Port Electric in Port Perry, who sells and installs both systems.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjyb
Good Chilly Sunday Morning, think this topic has been discussed before but for anyone wanting a Generator package check out the TSC Stores, they carry Generac and sell them cheaper than the dealers can buy them. Volume buying I'm sure and some models came with the automatic transfer switch. if you have natural gas or a big propane tank get them so they can hook-up to those sources.
About Generacs, look twice before you buy. We have a 11K natural gas unit at work that lasted a measly 3 years. Of that time it had maybe 50 hours of real use. It crapped out last monday during a power outage. Mechanic came by and said it was fried. Personally I'd rather go with a Honda or Yamaha home unit.
A friend of mine is on his 3rd Generac generator in as many years, he runs them on propane to power his Maple Syrup operation in the bush, this last one just packed it in last week and he is getting another. Fortunately they have been covered by warranty and replaced by it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman
The units are large I believe they are around 10 K.
When they are running , they are great , provide all the electricity he needs for lights, pump in his filtration system and his Reverse Osmosis system, but for some reason or other it is the computer that packs it in.