Loaded Firearm or not?

Tried searching the forum without any luck.

Can someone give me a definite if you remove the primer, percussion cap or flint but have charge and bullet in the barrel will the CO still consider the Firearm is loaded?

I awared about the article back in 2014 here:

https://www.oodmag.com/hunting/must-...oader-hunters/


But say if you are finished your day hunting and leaving your stand after legal hours how can you possible walk out the bush without go through all the trouble to deactivate the charger and clear the barrel?

How you guys overcome this in terms of doing it safely while comply with the law?

Thank you

From the Firearms Act:

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Def; unloaded, in respect of a firearm, means that any propellant, projectile or cartridge that can be discharged from the firearm is not contained in the breech or firing chamber of the firearm nor in the cartridge magazine attached to or inserted into the firearm.

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So in regard to ML...removing the primer does not make the ML unloaded....the projectile has to be removed.

So, the letter of the law is: you have to discharge prior to last light or remove the projectile without firing the ML before you encase it.

I'm not aware of the law ever been tested in the court of law....I'm hoping common sense would prevail.

Page 86 in the Ontario Hunting Regs says other wise :
MUZZLE-LOADING GUN :
A gun that is loaded through the muzzle . A percussion muzzle-loading gun is considered to be loaded if there is a charge of powder and a projectile in the barrel and a percussion cap on the nipple .
Glen

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Originally Posted by MikePal

From the Firearms Act:

So in regard to ML...removing the primer does not make the ML unloaded....the projectile has to be removed.

So, the letter of the law is: you have to discharge prior to last light or remove the projectile without firing the ML before you encase it.

I'm not aware of the law ever been tested in the court of law....I'm hoping common sense would prevail.

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This concerns loaded firearms in relation to criminal code offences etc. The OP is with respect to the meaning of "loaded", for the purposes of hunting regulations. Under the FWCA, a muzzle loader is loaded when a charge, projectile AND a cap or source of ignition is present.
Taking the cap or primer off the gun renders the firearm "unloaded" for the purposes of the regs..

Take the cap out and it's unloaded. Still needs to be incased.

Thank you gentlemen for all the input.

This is what I copied from the hunting regulation:

[COLOR="#0000CD"][COLOR="#0000CD"][COLOR="#0000CD"][COLOR="#0000CD"][COLOR="#0000CD"][COLOR="#0000CD"]A muzzle-loading gun is a gun that is loaded through the muzzle. A percussion muzzle-loading gun is considered to be loaded if there is a charge of powder and a projectile in the barrel and a percussion cap on the nipple. A flint-lock muzzle-loading gun is considered to be loaded if there is a charge of powder and a projectile in the barrel and the vent is unplugged. An electronic muzzle-loading gun is considered to be loaded if there is a projectile in the barrel. Under federal regulations pertaining to storage
and transport of firearms, a muzzle-loading gun is not unloaded
unless any propellant, projectile or cartridge has been removed
from the breech or firing chamber. There is an exemption on
transport restrictions when traveling between hunting sites.

I understand if you removed the percussion cap the Firearm is consider unload under fish and wildlife act under hunting but what about the modern ML like the Remmy and Savage?

Also what you guys do to cover yourself under the firearms act because if the powder and projectile is still inside the barrel?

I just want to be safe and cover myself because my normal spot is about 2 hours drive from home and it's not practical to discharge or deactivate the load after each hunt.

Thank you

Your better off to shoot or unload before your next hunt because the power picks up moister which will cause a hang or miss fire.

As spcamno quoted...you have to remember that the Firearms Act trumps the Hunting regs if it comes to charges being laid in accordance with the 'Storage and Transport' laws.

I have for years worked under the auspice of the Hunting Regs, ie; using the "AND" word in it's definition of loaded . ergo..I remove the primer rendering the gun unloaded and leave the projectile in the barrel while hunting during the ML week.

However I was informed that it is the Firearms Act that covers the laws of 'Transport and Storage'..ie once you have gotten home. Therefore the definition 'unloaded' in the act is the legal requirement and it requires you to remove the projectile from the chamber.

The legal argument could be made that if they allow you to remove the primer to take the gun into your truck to go from one spot to another while hunting...and that is considered 'unloaded' ....what has changed at the end of the day when you take the gun home.

Like I said. I haven't heard of this being challenged in court, so until then....hope you don't need a lawyer to find out the answer to your question.

Interesting! For a flintlock, how do you "plug the vent"?? I would imagine removing the flint would suffice but if challenged in court, any source of spark (camp fire or cigarette) has the potential to set off a charge. Just a thought. As Mikepal said, lets hope common sense prevails..........................Daniel

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Originally Posted by boogaloo

Interesting! For a flintlock, how do you "plug the vent"??

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I do believe the requirement is for a sliver of handcrafted Canadian Hardwood, honed to the demanding specs to perfectly seal the vent against any incursions. ..but I think a toothpick is also acceptable :)

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Originally Posted by MikePal

As spcamno quoted...you have to remember that the Firearms Act trumps the Hunting regs if it comes to charges being laid in accordance with the 'Storage and Transport' laws.

I have for years worked under the auspice of the Hunting Regs, ie; using the "AND" word in it's definition of loaded . ergo..I remove the primer rendering the gun unloaded and leave the projectile in the barrel while hunting during the ML week.

However I was informed that it is the Firearms Act that covers the laws of 'Transport and Storage'..ie once you have gotten home. Therefore the definition 'unloaded' in the act is the legal requirement and it requires you to remove the projectile from the chamber.

The legal argument could be made that if they allow you to remove the primer to take the gun into your truck to go from one spot to another while hunting...and that is considered 'unloaded' ....what has changed at the end of the day when you take the gun home.

Like I said. I haven't heard of this being challenged in court, so until then....hope you don't need a lawyer to find out the answer to your question.

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In regards to your second-last paragraph, what has changed is that you are no longer hunting.

The exemption in the transport regulations explicitly applies when transporting between hunting sites. Travelling home at night would not seem to fit that description, so it would seem the exemption does not apply, and the muzzleloader should be unloaded.

Likely it would have to be unloaded for overnight storage at home anyway, unless you are headed to a hunt camp in the 'wilderness', or you live in a location where you are already legally allowed to have a loaded firearm for pest/animal control temporarily stored in your house.

I think, like the target shooting from the boat issue, that it would be up to the CO/OPP/RCMP officer's discretion at the time, and, like you said, maybe the courts for a true answer.

That's how I read it anyways.

You people are over analyzing this one......... No percussion cap or primer in the barrel the gun is unloaded.....period. You can have a charge and projectile in the barrel no problem.
If a CO checks me I'm legal.
Hunting regs are already complex enough without trying to make them more difficult. Give your head a shake!!

Willy

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Originally Posted by willy9889

You people are over analyzing this one......... No percussion cap or primer in the barrel the gun is unloaded.....period. You can have a charge and projectile in the barrel no problem.
If a CO checks me I'm legal.
Hunting regs are already complex enough without trying to make them more difficult. Give your head a shake!!

Willy

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You are correct, in the context of hunting. Once you are no longer hunting, but transporting or storing your firearm, it must be unloaded as Mike and others have said. Firearms Act trumps FWCA....

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Originally Posted by willy9889

You people are over analyzing this one......... No percussion cap or primer in the barrel the gun is unloaded.....period. You can have a charge and projectile in the barrel no problem.
If a CO checks me I'm legal.
Hunting regs are already complex enough without trying to make them more difficult. Give your head a shake!!

Willy

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By-law, Provincial hunting, Federal firearms, etc, etc, etc, there are many different levels of law that all seem to build in a different set of rules that do not always coincide, even though a CO may say you are legal does not mean you are not going against a lot of other laws.

I know bugger all about M/L's,but,under what circumstances could one discharge without a cap on the nipple? Is there a possibility a rifle could discharge from an external source,either in transit or in storage at home?

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Is there a possibility a rifle could discharge from an external source,either in transit or in storage at home?

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Nope...when you take the primer out it's equivalent to carrying a Rifle Cartridge...bullet/powder /casing....hanlde it like you would basic ammunition.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

I know bugger all about M/L's,but,under what circumstances could one discharge without a cap on the nipple? Is there a possibility a rifle could discharge from an external source,either in transit or in storage at home?

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A rifle is loaded with ammunition in the magazine, not just in the chamber and in that case the rifle is considered loaded by all of the law makers, no way can it fire without being chambered but it is still considered loaded.

I think the main point of the unloaded is to allow people to go from spot to spot in a vehicle within legal shooting hours and nothing more.

Hate the idea of pissing away a two or three dollar bullet every time I leave the bush.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Hate the idea of pissing away a two or three dollar bullet every time I leave the bush.

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Do you have an open breech gun? You can push the bullet out from the back and use it.

I want to get into muzzle loader but I have been looking into the components, it is like shooting 338 Lapua, how can they justify $3/bullet and $1 for powder, I thought it was supposed to be a cheap sport to shoot, maybe I need to get one with the proper twist for round balls.

I usually hunt with much cheaper bullets....an average 350 gr lead sabot/conical from PR bullets is about $12 (on sale) for 12...$1.00 each....but it stills galls me to be wasteful. I'll continue to take out the primer and consider it unloaded. The laws are far to convoluted in regard to ML's , any lawyer should be able to get it thrown out of court...or until a judge tells me differently.

I tried unloading it thru the breach once and the breech plug anti seize mixes with the powder it made a real mess...the threads had to be cleaned inside the barrel etc. The powder also has to be thrown out as it is contaminated etc..so no thanks, that is no longer an option.

If I have to clear the barrel.....I'll spend the $1.50 (incl powder) and make smoke :)

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I usually hunt with much cheaper bullets....an average 350 gr lead sabot/conical from PR bullets is about $12 (on sale) for 12...$1.00 each....but it stills galls me to be wasteful. I'll continue to take out the primer and consider it unloaded. The laws are far to convoluted in regard to ML's , any lawyer should be able to get it thrown out of court...or until a judge tells me differently.

I tried unloading it thru the breach once and the breech plug anti seize mixes with the powder it made a real mess...the threads had to be cleaned inside the barrel etc. The powder also has to be thrown out as it is contaminated etc..so no thanks, that is no longer an option.

If I have to clear the barrel.....I'll spend the $1.50 (incl powder) and make smoke :)

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I think in your case you could argue protection of property, city boys may have a bigger issue.

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Originally Posted by Fox

I think in your case you could argue protection of property, city boys may have a bigger issue.

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More so, because I hunt in my own back yard and usually leave the ML in the range shack so it doesn't get condensation on it coming into the house.

not to say...shooting a raccoon trying to get into my chicken coop with a .50 cal would be warranted :)

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Hate the idea of pissing away a two or three dollar bullet every time I leave the bush.

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For years , our group which consists of 3 CO'S, 2 retired one still working, during the controlled hunt we all use muzzle loaders which require a Shot Shell primer for ignition non have ever shot off their guns at the end of the day, all have just removed the primer and we were ready to go the next day.
However when the season ended, that was a different story, the guns were all shot off as that is when they were considered to be going into storage.
This is the way the CO'S saw the law and interpret it, The police may see it another way should they be called to your house in case of a domestic or some other reason. Just make sure that you don't give them any reason to be there.

I refuse to comment on the grounds of incriminating myself.

Its laid out pretty clear in the FWCA and the Firearms Act. And as usual, Rick Iles is correct. I can't imagine it would ever be an issue though, unless maybe there was a negligent discharge or a gun got stolen or something.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

As spcamno quoted...you have to remember that the Firearms Act trumps the Hunting regs if it comes to charges being laid in accordance with the 'Storage and Transport' laws.

I have for years worked under the auspice of the Hunting Regs, ie; using the "AND" word in it's definition of loaded . ergo..I remove the primer rendering the gun unloaded and leave the projectile in the barrel while hunting during the ML week.

However I was informed that it is the Firearms Act that covers the laws of 'Transport and Storage'..ie once you have gotten home. Therefore the definition 'unloaded' in the act is the legal requirement and it requires you to remove the projectile from the chamber.

The legal argument could be made that if they allow you to remove the primer to take the gun into your truck to go from one spot to another while hunting...and that is considered 'unloaded' ....what has changed at the end of the day when you take the gun home.

Like I said. I haven't heard of this being challenged in court, so until then....hope you don't need a lawyer to find out the answer to your question.

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“The legal argument could be made that if they allow you to remove the primer to take the gun into your truck to go from one spot to another while hunting...and that is considered 'unloaded' ....what has changed at the end of the day when you take the gun home.”

When you take the gun home it becomes a question of legal storage. To legally stored a muzzle loader in your home, it must be free of percussion cap, powder, any wadding and projectile. Then render inoperable with some form of security, i.e. a trigger lock etc.

You don’t stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut