Savage 212 or 220

I just sold my browning bps slug gun and I want to get a new one. I've narrowed it down to a Savage 212 or 220. I have always used a 12 gauge over 20. I know both guns weigh the same and I've heard the 20 gauge is ballisticly better. I will be using it for mainly deer and some bear hunting. Any facts or opinions out there feel free to share!!

I used a 12 guage for 15 years and two years ago I bought a savage 220.

Got it lined up with Remington 3" accutips and was grouping about 3" at 140 yards.

Shot a coyote the first year at about 150 yards. Dropped him on the spot and he never flinched. Got him right were I was aiming.

Last year I shot an 8 point buck at about 50 yards on the dead run. Got him square threw the heart and there was a foot wide blood trail and buck laying about 50 yards away.

I still carry my 12 for dogging(iron sights) but the 20 comes with me every other time.

Such a pleasure to shoot, I compare the recoil with a .243 or .260rem.

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For slugging, go with the 20.

Ballistically it actually closely resembles the 45-70.

Feeding it decent ammo, will result in rifle like groups out to 150M

No need for a 12ga, 20ga does the job and the gun is a lot lighter.

I know a guy with a 220, great gun but good luck finding one.

220 for me. Plenty of gun for deer and bear without the bruised shoulder...lol

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...a/100_4095.jpg

I picked up a 220 for my controlled hunt. Very happy with the groupings. I put a Nikon slug hunter with the BDC.

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I have had the 220 for years and taken deer out to 120 yards. Punches right through. 1" groups at 100 yards with 3" accutips. Gun is great.

I'm surprised nobody has much to say about the 12 gauge.

I use a 20 gauge and could not be happier. Last two years I shot deer and neither went more than 10 yards.

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Originally Posted by ShawnL

I'm surprised nobody has much to say about the 12 gauge.

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The 12ga is not needed when running a fast sabot slugs with a better BC. The 12ga with foster slugs holds the energy that is needed out to range where the 20ga does not, the same is not true with the sabot style slugs. The 12ga sabot slugs hold velocity and energy a lot further but most of it is not needed, therefore the 20ga has become a lot more popular as the guns weigh a heck of a lot less and recoil a heck of a lot less too.

I have an older 12 ga. model 210F. I is very accurate and has devastating knock down capabilities. I shoot homemade lyman 525 lead slugs. It has a slightly less reach advantage ( that's what my smokeless muzzleloader is for anyway), but it is more than adequate out to 150 yrds.
here's a group @ 100 yrds.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...pspyxb2jkt.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...psq9fivjik.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...ps4vktk0qh.jpg

I had a 220, accuracy was typically good but at $4 every trigger pull range time got expensive. The one flaw with that gun is that it does not come with iron sights so you are forced to buy a scope and at close range you may not want one anyway. The Browning A-Bolt slugger comes with iron sights but at an extra costs which offsets the price of the scope, unfortunately it only comes in 12G, now if they made that gun in 20......

If you google a ballistics calculator (http://www.winchester.com/learning-c...alculator.aspx) you will be able to compare, the 20G sabot has very good performance.

I now use a smooth-bore A5 in 12G with iron sights for my range time, I get good (4 inch group at 50 yrds) performance with the Federal Truball and would hunt with it if keeping the distance under 50yrds.

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Originally Posted by Marker

I had a 220, accuracy was typically good but at $4 every trigger pull range time got expensive. The one flaw with that gun is that it does not come with iron sights so you are forced to buy a scope and at close range you may not want one anyway.

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Not really much point of a rifled barrel shotgun if you are keeping the range to iron sights range. My smooth bore barrel on my 870 has clamp on irons and shoots like your A5, no need for a rifled barrel unless that is scoped and shooting at a lot longer ranges.

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Originally Posted by Marker

I had a 220, accuracy was typically good but at $4 every trigger pull range time got expensive. The one flaw with that gun is that it does not come with iron sights so you are forced to buy a scope and at close range you may not want one anyway. The Browning A-Bolt slugger comes with iron sights but at an extra costs which offsets the price of the scope, unfortunately it only comes in 12G, now if they made that gun in 20......

If you google a ballistics calculator (http://www.winchester.com/learning-c...alculator.aspx) you will be able to compare, the 20G sabot has very good performance.

I now use a smooth-bore A5 in 12G with iron sights for my range time, I get good (4 inch group at 50 yrds) performance with the Federal Truball and would hunt with it if keeping the distance under 50yrds.

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Scope isn't the only option. A few shooters with the 220 that I've seen have holo sights on theirs.

I switched to a 20 gauge for slugs a few years ago and wouldn't look back, although it's an H&R. Much more comfortable to shoot and still plenty of range and energy to do the job. A couple of guys in my group carry the Savage 220 and have nothing but praise for their performance. The only issue I've seen with that them is that slugs don't feed from a magazine like rifle cartridges will. You have to work that bolt with authority.

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Originally Posted by ShawnL

I'm surprised nobody has much to say about the 12 gauge.

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Go with the 12g. I sure would if I were purchasing a new slug gun. You'll have a gun to hunt anything in this country. Lots of choice if you ever decide to load slugs yourself and factory ammo is everywhere

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

Go with the 12g. I sure would if I were purchasing a new slug gun. You'll have a gun to hunt anything in this country. Lots of choice if you ever decide to load slugs yourself and factory ammo is everywhere

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I will state the exact opposite. My choice would be 20 gauge

I have owned;

7 savage 220
2 savage 212/210 12 gauge
Abolt 12 gauge
Browning maxus cantilever 12 gauge slug
Browning bps Cantilever slug 20
Browning 10 gauge slug
870 express 20 and 12 gauge cantilever slug.


The Abolt was most expensive and I could have bought 2 220 for the same cash. It shot ok.

20 ga Savages were least expensive but the best shooters. Out of those 7 guns the 220 20 gauge was by far best - no contest.

Solid 200 yard guns

After that the BPS 20 gauge cantilever was next best and 200 yard capable. Brother took a big bodied 8 point at just over 180 yards....

The 12 gauge is fine but I sure wouldn't say the best and the Labradar shows most of the ammo shoots nowhere near what the box says. Some real whacky numbers with the 12 gauge ammo. Ballistically if you can get 125 yards out of premium ammo your doing really well.

My 2 cents - your mileage may vary

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Originally Posted by Fox

No need for a 12ga, 20ga does the job and the gun is a lot lighter.

I know a guy with a 220, great gun but good luck finding one.

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Agree with Fox. Lots of calls in the GTA hoping to get one for last seasons SG season but nothing. A guy at BPS said to call every week on Mondays to see if any where in the truck because you couldnt get on a wait list.

Ended up ordering one online at Cabelas. Punched in my PAL and had it in 5 days. Felt kinda wierd buying a gun online but came in great condition.

Havnt mounted the scope yet (Slug Hunter) so i cant say about accuracy but shot a couple and the recoil is amazing compared to my 12g. My only concern with it is once the scope is mounted it looks tight so not sure how the shell will eject when cycling the bolt.

Looking forward to November!

Bep

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Originally Posted by BEPPEQ

My only concern with it is once the scope is mounted it looks tight so not sure how the shell will eject when cycling the bolt.
Bep

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Not a concern if the appropriate base and rings are installed. I could probably have installed shorter rings on mine and still have adequate clearance but wanted to keep the option open of perhaps someday installing a scope with a larger bell housing and also taking into consideration the cycling of the bolt handle. Whatever you are comfortable with shooting the gun. Have a look at the picture I posted up above.

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

Go with the 12g. I sure would if I were purchasing a new slug gun. You'll have a gun to hunt anything in this country. Lots of choice if you ever decide to load slugs yourself and factory ammo is everywhere

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A 12ga although it hits hard is not even close to ideal if you go outside of a shotgun only area, sure you can use it but your effective range due to the rainbow trajectory compared to a rifle is just brutal if you end up in an area that allows rifles. The recoil too is tough to get used too, I will take a 30-06 with no recoil pad or a sporter 303 Brit with a brass butt plate over my 12ga rifled barreled shotgun any day of the week if I have the option. The 12ga is what I went with because it is simply a barrel swap and was a $200 option at a time when $700 was way too rich for my blood but I have seen and handled the savage 220, although not smooth right out of the box they do not take a lot of work to run very nice and they are setup like a proper rifle with a floating barrel, you just have to find the best ammo for them.

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Originally Posted by smokeeter

I have an older 12 ga. model 210F. I is very accurate and has devastating knock down capabilities. I shoot homemade lyman 525 lead slugs. It has a slightly less reach advantage ( that's what my smokeless muzzleloader is for anyway), but it is more than adequate out to 150 yrds.
here's a group @ 100 yrds.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...pspyxb2jkt.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...psq9fivjik.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...ps4vktk0qh.jpg

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That's one heck of a group! How hard is it to get the reload sabots etc?

Two guys shoot 12 in my gang and a 525 slug shooting that group at 100 is something to be reckoned with!

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

That's one heck of a group! How hard is it to get the reload sabots etc?

Two guys shoot 12 in my gang and a 525 slug shooting that group at 100 is something to be reckoned with!

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I thought you'd have everyone in your group converted to a smokeless muzzleloader. lol
As for reloading , I measure out the charges and just use my old Texan 12 ga. reloader. I did have to make a cardboard disc under the wad to make up the hull column for a proper crimp. These Lyman slugs were designed to fit in stock Winchester components ie. hulls and wads , and they are quite accurate once the right load recipe is determined and they sure beat the cost of factory slugs.

I've converted a few but the price tag is tough to swallow!

If you had to estimate cost of slugs and components - what do you think?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by impact

Not a concern if the appropriate base and rings are installed. I could probably have installed shorter rings on mine and still have adequate clearance but wanted to keep the option open of perhaps someday installing a scope with a larger bell housing and also taking into consideration the cycling of the bolt handle. Whatever you are comfortable with shooting the gun. Have a look at the picture I posted up above.

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Love the Camo! I went with the synthetic stock but kinda regretting it now, the camo looks much better IMO. Deer don't care but just pleasant on the eyes.

What base and rings did you end up going with? I've been having a hard time finding EGW's but to be honest i havn't really looked that hard yet. Thats on my July list of things to do.

Bep

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Originally Posted by BEPPEQ

What base and rings did you end up going with? I've been having a hard time finding EGW's but to be honest i havn't really looked that hard yet. Thats on my July list of things to do.

Bep

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To avoid unnecessary travel and disappointment I took my gun and scope to the counter at a local shop. We tried different combinations of base and rings until I was happy with the setup. I don't recall the brand name of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BEPPEQ

Love the Camo! I went with the synthetic stock but kinda regretting it now, the camo looks much better IMO. Deer don't care but just pleasant on the eyes.

What base and rings did you end up going with? I've been having a hard time finding EGW's but to be honest i havn't really looked that hard yet. Thats on my July list of things to do.

Bep

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Beep - you may want to look at DNZ reaper one piece rings and bases. They conform to the cutout of the receiver.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

If you had to estimate cost of slugs and components - what do you think?

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less than a buck a shot. that's for salvaged lead tho not book value.

( first I thought you were asking the cost of a smokeless and I'd have to say around $200 like I told my wife)

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Originally Posted by smokeeter

less than a buck a shot. that's for salvaged lead tho not book value.

( first I thought you were asking the cost of a smokeless and I'd have to say around $200 like I told my wife)

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Too funny.

I changed it because it seemed as though I was asking the wrong thing.

With that cost it is well worth while. Even cheap federal blue box 1300 fps slugs are $9 for 5 (yes I know the box says 1450!)

Thanks for the info!

Folks this is a great way to get shooting more with your slug guns before deer season.

I wonder if they have a 20 gauge version....

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Originally Posted by Fox

A 12ga although it hits hard is not even close to ideal if you go outside of a shotgun only area, sure you can use it but your effective range due to the rainbow trajectory compared to a rifle is just brutal if you end up in an area that allows rifles. The recoil too is tough to get used too, I will take a 30-06 with no recoil pad or a sporter 303 Brit with a brass butt plate over my 12ga rifled barreled shotgun any day of the week if I have the option. The 12ga is what I went with because it is simply a barrel swap and was a $200 option at a time when $700 was way too rich for my blood but I have seen and handled the savage 220, although not smooth right out of the box they do not take a lot of work to run very nice and they are setup like a proper rifle with a floating barrel, you just have to find the best ammo for them.

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Most of the swamp donkeys we've shot have been no further than 150 yds. A decent sabot will work just fine at that range and closer. Just because you don't like or can't handle the recoil doesn't mean others are the same. A 12g slug gun IMO is a much more versatile gun than a 20g

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

Most of the swamp donkeys we've shot have been no further than 150 yds. A decent sabot will work just fine at that range and closer. Just because you don't like or can't handle the recoil doesn't mean others are the same. A 12g slug gun IMO is a much more versatile gun than a 20g

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That does not mean that a 12ga slug gun is the best for every application. There is almost the same energy at 200 yards with a 303 British 180 grain than a 300gr 12ga sabot slug at 100 yards and a Lee Enfield sporter can be had for $200 with ammo at $1.50 a shot rather than $4 a shot with a heck of a lot less recoil. At 150 yards on a moose you have a ton of options. Not saying that the 12ga sabot slug will not do just fine on a moose at 150 yards but 90% of guys who are buying rifled shotguns are because they are restricted from using rifles and want to reach out and touch that buck across a field and in that case a 20ga will do you just fine out to 150-200 yards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

That does not mean that a 12ga slug gun is the best for every application. There is almost the same energy at 200 yards with a 303 British 180 grain than a 300gr 12ga sabot slug at 100 yards and a Lee Enfield sporter can be had for $200 with ammo at $1.50 a shot rather than $4 a shot with a heck of a lot less recoil. At 150 yards on a moose you have a ton of options. Not saying that the 12ga sabot slug will not do just fine on a moose at 150 yards but 90% of guys who are buying rifled shotguns are because they are restricted from using rifles and want to reach out and touch that buck across a field and in that case a 20ga will do you just fine out to 150-200 yards.

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I never said is was the best for every application??? The OP ask and I gave him my opinion. Theres far more options for ammo for 12g and if it were me I wouldn't even consider a 20g based on ammo and versatility.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

That does not mean that a 12ga slug gun is the best for every application. There is almost the same energy at 200 yards with a 303 British 180 grain than a 300gr 12ga sabot slug at 100 yards and a Lee Enfield sporter can be had for $200 with ammo at $1.50 a shot rather than $4 a shot with a heck of a lot less recoil. At 150 yards on a moose you have a ton of options. Not saying that the 12ga sabot slug will not do just fine on a moose at 150 yards but 90% of guys who are buying rifled shotguns are because they are restricted from using rifles and want to reach out and touch that buck across a field and in that case a 20ga will do you just fine out to 150-200 yards.

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There you go again , putting words in people's mouths, no, one here ever said it was .

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Originally Posted by jaycee

There you go again , putting words in people's mouths, no, one here ever said it was .

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MY OPINION WAS THAT THE 12GA WAS NOT NEEDED, AS THE OP ASKED.

I never put words in anyone elses mouth, I answered the question, if I had the budget and went back in time I would not have bought a 12ga for deer in SW Ontario, totally unnecessary, that is my opinion and it seems the same as many other people here due to very similar reasons as I have.

Thanks Jaycee, once again your posts are riveting.

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Originally Posted by Fox

MY OPINION WAS THAT THE 12GA WAS NOT NEEDED, AS THE OP ASKED.

I never put words in anyone elses mouth, I answered the question, if I had the budget and went back in time I would not have bought a 12ga for deer in SW Ontario, totally unnecessary, that is my opinion and it seems the same as many other people here due to very similar reasons as I have.

Thanks Jaycee, once again your posts are riveting.

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Read post 30 first sentence.. Explain please when I made that statement or stfu.

This is getting kind of ugly guys. Not necessary at all.

Save these types of comments until you are face to face.

That tends to calm folks down.

I think the op got lots of good answers and honestly he has more info and opinions than anyone would need to make an informed decision.

My two cents - your mileage may vary!

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

Read post 30 first sentence.. Explain please when I made that statement or stfu.

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That is putting it to" FOX " very succinctly!

I do appreciate everybody's input. And guess I'm a little surprised...I figured I would probably get about 50-50 in response......not 80-20 in favour of the 20 gauge. That's the way I was leaning any way. But I think I've heard lots to re-enforce my choice.