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Last nights Mass killing in Las Vegas is absolutely SHOCKING, what happens to cause these people to go on a shooting rampage?. Over 500 people injured and at last count they claimed 59 people are dead including 4 Canadians on holidays and honeymoons , enjoying themselves at a country and western concert.
I can't get my mind around it. Too me if you don't like your life, kill yourself but let us live it.
I heard a good report about the numbers (still very tragic and a nutbar). The left will hype up the 500 for the anti gun movement. But the truth has yet to be know how many of the killed and injured were by gunfire or trampling in the panicked aftermath.
There was a stampede, and there was a nutbar shooting at them. Lets watch how the numbers are spun now over the actual facts.
If they had just check his criminal records they would known this guy was trouble.... What? you say he didn't even get a traffic ticket? Well that means the back ground check idea doesn't work.
Pure evil .. No matter what the reason .
Cue the leftist Liberal/Democrat politicians howling for more gun control.
Did you listen to the audio? It was continuous firing for an extended period of time and people ran but had trouble getting away.Quote:
Originally Posted by line052
It does not matter at all how many were trampled and how many were shot, 500+ people injured and 59 dead, with some of the injured still in critical condition. Who cares who was run over by someone else or fell and hurt themselves running away, you would not say that in the 9/11 attacks only x number of people were killed by the plane, y were killed when the building fell and z killed themselves by jumping out of windows, they were all killed or injured in the attack, period.
^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I will concede that point. My point is the gun control nuts will spin those numbers. 25,000 people were killed in drunk driving last year in US.... and no is trying ban cars. And no I have not watched or viewed any pictures or video and choose not to watch this stuff.
You're an F'in tool if you don't think they need better gun control, the states have a mass shooting a day. There is absolutely zero reason to own a assault rifle either full or semi automatic. Those rifles are not designed to take hunting or for self defence. They're designed to kill people. Since sandy hook there have been 1518 mass shootings with nothing done to solve the issue. Nevada is an open carry state, tell me how many people were saved? 0, there were plenty of people with guns at the show. If you don't think there shouldn't be better firearms control. You should personally talk to every family that was effected by this and explain your reasoning. Also go to the children's families of sandy hook and explain why their children didn't deserve to live but yours do.
do we need to ban pressure cookers like in the boston marathon? or vans and trucks that are being driven into people these days?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonkers
these people are sick, ban their guns, and they will find another means...look at Chicago..liberal wasteland, gun free zone, highest murder rate in usa.. go ahead ban the guns bonkers theres 300 million of them out in the USA, the law abiding citizen will turn theirs in but I hate to say it these evil people will to whatever they can to commit these crimes...
It is true that there are more mass shootings in a year than days in the US, but they are not the only country with open gun laws and high levels of training, think Switzerland. Although I agree that there should be restrictions, I mean, a criminal record does not remove your right to machine guns in Navada, but there is something much deeper wrong with the US. The instant reaction to not liking what is going on is to get a gun and start shooting, or build bombs and blow up schools, churches, etc, there is a mindset in the US that is totally screwed up. This guy used guns, he could have used explosives like Timothy McVeigh or the Unibomber, there are many ways to kill people when someone wants too, this was the tool that was chosen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonkers
There are so many internal battles down there it is crazy, you have a very large separation between the rich and the poor, racism that we do not understand up here, education based on local communities with large numbers of barely literate citizens and a judicial system based on votes rather than experience, that is just the tip of the iceberg of things that are screwed up and cause rifts between individuals and or groups of people.
Banning guns isn't the answer to gun control...(criminals will always be able to get one) but background checks is a start...Not that this individual had a criminal record but background checks certainly can be a start to better understand who should own a firearm and why. Maybe it would be the beginning of changing peoples mindset in the US.
very well said fratri and fox
I don't know why you say the guy was evil. Being evil is a long term condition like a Hitler or a Stalin and certainly some event or events in this guys previous existence would substantiate this claim. But he has a completely clear jacket by the police, his friends and his family. Even his brother is at a loss as to why he did it. I'd be more inclined to believe some recent medical issue was the root cause over him being evil.
Whatever the reason he did what he did it just goes to show that even a very close scrutiny in a background check is no guarantee of how a person could or will behave.
It's pretty obvious that without fully automatic guns he would have never killed and injured that many peoples. That's what these guns I meant for, kill lots and fast. I'm not too sure how can someone not get that. So, either we care about it or not. It's hope to us....
spend our money on education and mental health problems and you won't really need gun control......
He did pass the required background check in Nevada in one report I saw. As for the number of casualties look at one of the cities with the strictest gun laws in the US, Chicago and in less than 6 weeks you can get the same number of dead and injured.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ago/452585001/
and almost 10X the massacre if you look this year.
(500 killed)
https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/qu...-gun-violence/
There are many things that don't add up.... the audio sounds like an automatic which would be illegal
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-me/725776001/
and
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...bay/726322001/
At least some of his arsenal was purchased legally at Guns & Guitars in Mesquite, Nev. “He passed every federal background check, every time he bought a gun,’’ owner Janis Sullivan, 67, told USA TODAY. Paddock also is believed to have purchased a number of weapons at Cabela’s in Verdi, Nev., a federal law enforcement official said.
...
The Islamic State on Monday claimed responsibility, saying that the perpetrator was “a soldier” who had converted to Islam months ago.
* I have never heard them claim anyone that didn't already have an Islamic tie but believing ISIS at this point would worth noting but also be ridiculous.
IF .... and I so far really doubt it he is an ISIS soldier then we can look at the London or Manchester bombings where over 50 and over 20 were killed and other suicide attacks around the world often go over 100 without a firearm in sight.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7750421.html
Fortunately the Edmonton terrorist attack was unsuccessful, our immigration was also unsuccessful since the US had ordered him deported as a radical and Canada just let him stay.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7750421.html
The speculation will be off the scale, legal firearm owners will get blamed and anything semi-auto and auto will be blurred by the media and somehow the open carry laws will be associated with this seem to be the usual direction so far. The US has problems, their debt and gov't spending, there are the new National Socialists (think 1930's Germany) calling themselves ANTIFA, racist groups running around (some screaming for dead cops in marches) and gang problems off the scale.....
"a staggering 80% of gun homicides are gang-related. According to the Center for Disease Control (CDC), gang homicides accounted for roughly 8,900 of 11,100 gun murders in both 2010 and 2011. That means that there were just 2,200 non gang-related firearm murders in both years in a country of over 300 million people and 250 million guns. "
and
http://www.newsweek.com/2016/12/23/c...te-532034.html
Now back to the topic, UNTIL they talk to the girlfriend (who went to the Philippines) and tell us the contents of the note that appears to be on the table we can speculate that he was paranoid and told to kill humans by his cat and Gaia just as validly.
http://www.news.com.au/world/north-a...923b58b69f00bf
There also appears to be enough firearms for a company almost, he had video cameras setup and there are two broken windows, he was prepared! .... it will be interesting as to what and why this psychopath did it only as far as seeing how much more divided it will make the US.... I mean just look at this mental case!
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment...publicans.html
CBS fires vice president who said Vegas victims didn't deserve sympathy because country music fans 'often are Republican'
It's been said already, but there is no need for fully automatic weapons in the public's hands.
That should be step one.
Yes, it's a complex issue, and they're is not one simple answer.
But, without access to fully automatic weapons, incidents like this would have less casualties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
I assumed he used fully auto but he did not. They were semi-auto equipped with rapid-fire, my bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by puc911
I love guns and I sure wish I could get access to them all and use them wherever I want but unfortunately they are way too many crazies and bad guys out there to make it happen. I'm fine with it, take a little bit of my freedom to save life seems pretty fear to me.
This will be an irrelevant stat, but I was curious how many mass shootings in Canada this year: 1.
Quebec mosque six dead, 18 injured.
Also when you remove cities like Chicago and other high crime cities where gang related SHOOTINGS are off the scale, gun violence numbers in the US falls way down the compared the rest of the world also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nina Martin
Well they banned handguns within the city of Toronto around ten years ago. How did that work out? All it accomplished was the loss of a place for law abiding handgun owners to shoot when they shut down gun clubs within the city.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonkers
Be careful with the "don't see the point in owning something so nobody should own it" argument. After "assault rifles" are banned (whatever you consider those to be) and the problems don't go away, the next thing to go will be your pump shotgun and your bolt rifle. Will you then expect the (former) law abiding assault rifle owners to stand up for you?
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What a senseless tragedy perpetrated by pure evil. An event that will have a ripple effect not only thru family, friends, first responders but any who hear of the carnage.
Not likely Paddocks first opportunity but regardless, carnage is carnage no matter the target. He apparently spent a lot of time in Mandalay Bay overlooking The Village.
Be interesting to see why isis has, 3 times, claimed him and their "soldier" AND in different languages, publications around the globe.
I only remember two other claims by them that was simply an opportunity by isis to attempt to take advantage of an event.(the Russian security office in Khabarosvk, which was supposedly a right wing attacker and the Manila casino event)
On the AR BS previously posted.......Best coyote hunting gun I have ever owned/used was an AR.
Bump stocks are legal, just like cars, alcohol, u haul trucks, B&Q rental vans, etc.
Sooner or later the clowns/antis will figure out evil is in the heart of man, not a bump stock, fast car, alcohol, U Haul truck, B&Q van or ANFO.
"Losing a little bit of freedom" is a fool's game. That's the argument the "antis" and leftist Liberals always use to gradually usurp ALL of society's freedom,first and foremost,being ownership of private property in general and firearms and gun control in particular. We can never cede one inch to those people or they'll take a mile, every time, a little bit at a time until their blatant full gun confiscation agenda is complete.Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
Agree but some States should and will lose some for the safety of others! Why can't I drink and drive?Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
How about they just close some of the loop holes....surely that doesn't take away anything from law abiding gun owners...
Not doing anything does nothing...
The illegal gun violence we see in Canada is from guns smuggled into Canada from the US. Theres massive profits in it. I believe vicecity did a documentary on it. A gun you can get in Detroit for $150 you can sell in Canada for $2000. Don't play that stupid BS card about them going to ban all guns. It's assault rifles and mag restrictions. Our laws up here are fine and shouldn't be touched. You don't defend your home with an assault rifle, hence the ASSAULT name.Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
Which loopholes?
Gun control won't fix the problem--just the symptom. Society needs to be fixed.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...975_story.html
http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Foreign/...le-Control.htm
^^this.Quote:
Originally Posted by awndray
If you are sick it is far better to cure the root disease than it is to pop Advil for the rest of your life in an attempt to manage the symptoms.
Pleas stop referring to the firearms used in this horrific act as assault rifles. A requirement for assault rifles is to have selective fire. Employing a device or altering the firearm's internal components to alter a semi-automatic firearm's rate of fire doesn't make them assault rifles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonkers
I guess that depends on your definition of "mass". 3 Mounties killed in Moncton and how many in Alberta?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nina Martin
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...rial-1.4103205
This is the type of loophole I am referring to....Quote:
Originally Posted by awndray
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/11/us...nd-checks.html
IMO gun laws in the US need to be tightened up.....
In Canada you can not defend your home, your Family, or even your person. Some guy attacks you with a knife/bat/lead pipe/weapon of any kind, just punching him in the nose will get you charges and jail time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonkers
So your "You don't defend....." statement is BS. BUT since it was not used in assaulting, being it was in fact used in defence, would that not make it a "DEFENCE RIFLE"?
A website that their only purpose seems to be to blame the firearm ..... oh well facts never stopped alot of reporters anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by awndray
Alot still not adding up on this, some of the bursts of fire you hear sounds like 100 round or belt fed bursts, they sure aren't your average 20 or 30 round mag, that and some of the videos talking about other floors, who his guest was (room said 2 people and he had apparently ordered 2 dinners at a time.) .... and the one guy that knows why is dead and they haven't said what was on the note.
Now as far as drunk driving etc. vehicle accidents are far higher in number that murder according to the WHO.
http://www.who.int/violence_injury_p...inal2.pdf?ua=1
and Canada doesn't fare too well
https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmc.../#499d35f2f5ca
Someone committed an illegal act and may have illegally modified a semi-automatic rifle and people are blaming the piece of metal... I guess that's why England has the "Ban the knife, save a life" protests, ignoring it was a vehicle that killed 8 an injured 40 in June this year... seems like they don't want to put the money into education, accountability and safety which take alot longer to make a real change and are alot harder. The figures (as quoted and linked to earlier) on the number of gang related murders and crimes (missing from the thetrace link above) and seem to dismiss the reality of the violence.
If people are dedicated to murder because of ideology or revenge they will find a way, an example is suicide bombers in 2016 killed 5,650 people... 800 people so dedicated to violence they would kill themselves while killing the people attacked.
http://www.inss.org.il/publication/s...er-fatalities/
OH and vehicle crashes in 2015..."Crashes took 35,092 lives in the U.S. in 2015."
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/ge...enger-vehicles
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm
All injury deaths
Number of deaths: 199,752
Deaths per 100,000 population: 62.6
All poisoning deaths
Number of deaths: 51,966
Deaths per 100,000 population: 16.3
Motor vehicle traffic deaths
Number of deaths: 33,736
Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.6
All firearm deaths
Number of deaths: 33,594
Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.5
..
In 2014, 33,594 persons died from firearm injuries in the United States
,accounting for 16.8% of all injury deaths
...The two major component causes of firearm injury deaths in 2014 were suicide (63.7%) and homicide (32.8%).
Looks like poisoning is more dangerous, vehicles in the US kill about the same as firearms, both will have suicides (not the same %) but looking at just homicides there are about 80% of the murders that are gang related .... and the problem is the firearm??????? The old argument about not needing a semi-automatic to hunt can be taken to the pump (Australia), lever action and down to only allowing single shots...... muzzleloader, bow only .... heck some would be not happy with allowing a bolo and atlatl too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
Yep, Canada sure has some f***** up laws, I wonder who came up with the curl up in a ball and p*** yourself idea of defense?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
It is the Washington Post (Toronto Star but worse) but some it is relevant to perceptions and realities
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.8dcc82ad623e
Canada bans most guns and has a minuscule number of gun-
related homicides a year. But, worried about smuggled firearms from the United States, its government is preparing to stiffen its already tough gun laws and step up border surveillance. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has promised new regulations and a string of measures to counter gun smuggling, which is regarded here as a dangerous problem underscoring the United States’ much looser firearm laws.
...
“Unfortunately it is easier to get a gun illegally in Canada than it is to get one legally,” said Blair Hagen, executive vice president of the National Firearms Association.
Handguns in Canada are mostly forbidden — with an exception for types used for target shooting. So are machine guns, silencers and large magazines. Semiautomatics are heavily restricted.
To obtain a gun license, Canadians must go through extensive background checks that include criminal-record and mental health checks as well as interviews with family members and former spouses. The application process can take up to six months.
Nothing in the Canadian constitution even remotely implies a right to own a firearm. Still, Canada is a nation of about 2 million registered gun owners — mostly hunters — who own an estimated 10 million to 20 million firearms.
I wouldn't call this a loophole, you can do the same in Toronto, Kitchener, Windsor Ontario, talk to the right people and illegal guns can be purchased here, any police dept. will confirm this.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
If you read my quote, “this year.” Those Mounties killed in Alberta was 2005 and Moncton was 2014.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharon
Thu already have laws against murder. Against assault with a weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonkers
How would more gun laws help when someone goes this crazy.
So you assume the same people that would label an SKS or AR an "assault rifle" wouldn't also label your scoped bolt action hunting rifle as a "sniper rifle"? Glad you don't speak for all of us Bonkers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonkers
As for illegal gun violence... you confirmed my original point. Just because you make something illegal doesn't make it stop. Magazine restrictions and bans on certain types of firearms won't stop people from using them for illegal activity. Laws don't matter to the criminal, evil or insane.
Mass shootings are illegal...
Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk
Illegal guns yes, can be purchased illegally in most major cities but............................................... ..................in the US you can buy a handgun or any firearm for that matter without a background check legally when purchased through a private seller....no background check required....(that's the difference/loophole)Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
You can also buy a car, u haul truck, rent a van buy alcohol without a background check. What is your point. Paddock apparently bought leagal firearm, he just used them illegally which already has law to address that.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
There are laws against home invasion but look at the UK vs the US. Why is one worsethan the other? I doubt laws are the reason as both countries outlaw it.
Are we going to take everyone's cars, alcohol, u haul trucks knives fists, feet, baseball bats yada yada away? Or we going to realize the debauchery, lack of morality, etc. pushed upon society in the name of rights?
We have property rights AND can sell as we please to whom we please privately.
Just wait the libs will blame this on Trump and Russia somehow............
Seeing that a lot of people here are apathetic. How many more people must die? 100,000? 200,000? 1 million? before you come to a realisation of the situation and the solutions to solve it.
The problem is Bonkers that you have no clue what the problem actually is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonkers
Should they ban "assault" rifles or all semi auto rifles? What about lever actions or pumps? They can be shot quickly. Can they prove that criminals will not be able to get any firearms? What do they do if someone goes on a stabbing spree, do you ban all the knives? How about a truck, France proved that when you cannot get guns you can use a big truck, do you ban big trucks?
You are missing the fundamental problem here, the wrong people are having easy access and too many people are tweaking and killing, maybe if they figure out why people are tweaking and killing they may be able to solve this problem. If they take away all the guns from the Americans do you really think the people that may do something like this would ever turn in their guns? Do you have any idea how many militias there are in the US? Do you know how may paramilitary organizations are out there? You would take the guns out of the hands of a guy who hunts coyotes but you would never get the guns out of the hands of something who thinks the government is out to get them.
You have no idea
I think you are missing the point too! Driving a truck thru a crowd did some real damage in France but not so much elsewhere (Canada a week ago) because it is not the right tool to kill. An assault riffle, or whatever you call it, is the perfect tool and you know why?!? Because that's what it's meant for....Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
So, tell us what is the solution?
Background check doesn't work.
Training doesn't work.
Telling peoples that killing other is bad, doesn't work.
Spending money on crazies doesn't help the ones that don't know they are crazy.
And so on....
You can't fix them all but they all have easy access to a bunch of real weapon.... And I wish I could too!
7 billionQuote:
Originally Posted by Bonkers
Ha! You nailed that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Species8472
Sadly I think you are 100% correct.
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Not the same thing.... buying a gun without a background check is a lot different than renting a van (even then a current/valid driver's licence (ID) comes into play)....Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot
Just too many ways for someone to get a gun legally in the US without getting checked properly.
One should be able to sell one's property without government intervention, and that is what we do.
He had, apparently, 50 ish guns which he apparently purchased over decades, had background checks on them, so how does a background check stop Las Vegas or do we simply want to do the liberal idiocy and pass more moronic gun laws?
For every large number of folk that purchases a car, u haul, knife, bat, gun, scissors etc, there are a very small amount that use them to do criminal harm, why punish everyone like a 1st grade teacher? Why take one person's rights away because another person can't function correctly in society? That my friend IS insanity.
Almost a direct quote of the words of the Democratic speaker on the Congress floor today. You got any thoughts or ideas that are your own?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonkers
7.6 is the correct count now. We passed 7 billion in April.Quote:
Originally Posted by Species8472
he actually bought 33 guns since October 2016 in 3 or 4 different States and he passed every background check.Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot
yes, he apparently accelerated his purchases around October of last year, as you referenced, which is interesting, and possibly relevant as to a motive.Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
I have little doubt he will be found with some serious mental/emotional issues as the investigation continues, likely on mental health type drugs.
The fact that he repeated much of his Las Vegas actions previously, seems to indicate much premeditation, dry runs and or aborted intentions.
The fact he tried to ignite/detonate the Jet A tanks at the airport would seem to indicate far more than a kook with a gun in a highrise.
personally I think we should ban high rises, jet-a fuel, airplanes, ANFO, Tannerite, and whatever car he drove and brand of luggage he used.
That fits the current logic from the left.
How about the US doesn't ban guns but just asks for background checks or a PAL like we do here with our long guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot
It may not have done anything with regards to his purchases but I bet it will stop the sell of some guns to some people that should not be allowed to own them.
What's wrong with background checks?
Skypilot can jump in here in case I'm wrong,but,I believe US federal law already requires background checks for all purchases the same as we do. The only difference is we do ours at the time of licensing as a one-shot deal every five years. Produce your PAL,buy your gun,easy-peasy. They do theirs by on-site computer check locally and with NCIC with every purchase. In Canada,convicted criminals out on parole can still apply for and depending on their particular crime,in most cases,receive a PAL/RPAL. Not so in the US. Convicted felons are barred from firearm ownership for life. If apprehended with a firearm,they go directly back to prison to finish their sentence. It's open for debate which system is better.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Pretty sure, no background check required through private sale in the US....this is where that loophole exists....Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Just seems wrong that a guy can sell a handgun or rifle privately and no background check required........................... but buy it from a store requires a background check. I see a big illegal market right there.
But that doesn't mean it would never work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
We can buy a non-restricted firearm privately without a background check here. We aren't even required to ask for a PAL,although,I know some try to call and check a PAL validity. The RCMP will not divulge any other info to a third party,no matter what.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Pretty sure you would and most of us would want to see the PAL it's just our Canadian nature...........................myself, I like to see a drivers license too.... In the US it is not only long guns that are sold privately without background checks, it is also handguns, AK 47 type of firearms too... It seems the laws in the US are different than they are in Canada...Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I for one think owning firearms isn't a right but a privilege.
Again I ask, what's wrong with background checks? What's the big deal, background checks will help keep some of the guns out of criminal hands.
Closing the "gun show loophole" would likely help. I'm a big believer in our PAL/RPAL system. In fact,IMO,that's the ONLY real part of our system that actually accomplishes what it was originally supposed to do. Maybe,the Americans would be wise to implement that system federally. It'd sure be tough slogging for them,though.
We already go thru an extensive background check and in many States, the State's mental health/court/Physician/etc reports are cross referenced to the FBI gun purchase check and in some purchases there is even a wait period.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Anyway the hate in the US on background checks is exactly the problem you have here, look who does them, a political arm of the libs.
With no realistic appeal. So who gets to determine if Frank gets a gun is the heartburn about checks. AND it will have NO effect on anything people are drumming on about.
Adam Lanza? Nope
San Bernardino? Nope
Paddock in Vegas? Nope
Va Tech univ.? Check turned up nothing prior to gun purchase and he had bad cranial wiring.
So see? useless wrt any past event, which begs the question what is really behind all the clamoring for gun control if it's not really to prevent what everyone is clamoring about? More /stricter gun control like Chicago? That's a joke on the lib's flawed logic.
Once again, decades of liberal debauchery and erosion of morals and values pushed to the hilt by the Dems has finally matured into a lack of any respect for innocent people and seeing people as less than human. For example look at the Conservative Senator shot by liberal as an example of liberal social engineering........whipped to a fervor by the deceitful MSN and the blueprinted decay in society.
The only sure protection is in the heart of man and the moral law he keeps within himself. With or without background checks or other legislative wand waving and magic chants.
http://bit.ly/2xX6PeVQuote:
I’ll never forget April 20th, 1999.
I was 12 years old, sitting in art class in middle school. We were playing with clay and making sculptures.
Suddenly, our principal came on over the PA. Her voice trembled.
“I have an important announcement to make. All teachers and students need to hear this. I will wait 60 seconds for everyone to be completely silent.”
The next minute was eerie. My friends and I exchanged confused looks, and nervously laughed. Our teacher held her finger to her lips. Silence.
The principal’s voice came back onto the PA:
“There is a shooting at Columbine high school. All students are to go home immediately.”
Columbine was 15 minutes away from us.
I remember taking the bus home, and walking into my house. My mom turned on the news. I recognized that fence. We’ve driven by that fence.
My mom knew the teacher. Dave Sanders. She’d substituted with him at Columbine.
* * *
In the last 18 years, we Americans have experienced too many of these shootings. And I want to share a few of my thoughts on why I think they keep happening.
By the way, this isn’t a political post about guns, or the media. It’s a post about men, and their emotional health.
Over the past few years, I’ve found myself in the mental health space. I’ve learned a lot. Particularly that men in the United States REALLY struggle in this realm, and have very little social or emotional support. This affects men of every race and socioeconomic background.
I was watching Jimmy Kimmel’s impassioned, raw speech last night about the Vegas shootings. Like Jimmy, I felt sick and heartbroken by the tragedy. But something he said stood out to me:
“There’s probably no way to ever know why a human being could do something like this to other human beings.”
Sadly, researchers know a lot about why human beings — particularly white men — do things like this.
Why mass shootings keep happening.
It’s tempting to say the mass shooters motive was simply “pure evil,” or to blame the media or guns, but that absolves us of looking deeply at what each of us — as individuals, family members, friends, and community members — might be missing.
Now, I’m not a psychiatrist. And I don’t know much about the Vegas shooter. I’m just a guy who studies mental health.
Again, this is not a political post about guns, for the same reason it’s not a political post about weaponized cars. Easy access to guns is a big part of the problem, but I’m not as interested in the tool as I am in what causes a man to use it so destructively.
Nor is this a post in defense of the shooter, or to make him sound like a victim in any way. What he did was a horrific, terrorist act. He is a murderer, and he is not excused from this by any stretch (though I truly feel sympathy for the shooter’s brother, who seemed to be totally caught off guard by this behavior, and now he has to deal with the aftermath for the rest of his life).
The goal of this post is simply to shine a light on what’s eroding men’s emotional health.
1- Men in the United States are chronically lonely.
Boys in the United States — just like all human beings — need touch, caring, warmth, empathy, and close relationships. But as we grow up, most of us lose those essential components of our humanity.
What’s worse: we have no idea how to ask for those things, or admit we need them, because we’re afraid it will make us look weak.
As a man, you might be thinking, “Not me, I’ve got drinking buddies. I play poker with the guys. I’ve got friends.”
But do you have confidants? Do you have male friends who you can actually be vulnerable with? Do you have friends whom you can confide in, be 100% yourself around, that you can hug without saying “No ,” without feeling tense or uncomfortable while you’re doing it?
For many men, the answer is “no.” So, we spend our time posturing instead.
From an early age, we have an unhealthy ideal of masculinity that we try to live up to. Part of that ideal tells us that Real men do everything on their own. Real men don’t cry. Real men express anger through violence.
The byproduct is isolation. Most men spend the majority of their adult lives without deeper friendships, or any real sense of community. Not to mention a complete inability to release anger or sadness in a healthy way.
There is a fantastic documentary called The Mask You Live In, which explains how boys in our society are ultimately shaped into mentally unstable adults. My friend Ryan recommended this film to me, after confiding that he cried throughout the entire thing. I cried, as well.
Simon Sinek echoed similar insights on Glenn Beck’s show:
“We’re seeing a rise of loneliness and isolation. No one kills themselves when they’re hungry; we kill ourselves when we’re lonely. And we act out, as well.
In the 1960’s, there was one school shooting.
In the 1980’s, there were 27.
In the 1990’s, there were 58.
In the past decade, there have been over 120.
It has nothing to do with guns, it has to do with people feeling lonely.
How do we combat the loneliness that kids are feeling? All of them attacked people in their own community, and all of them attack people they blamed for their own loneliness.”
This loneliness compounds as men grow older.
Without deeper friendships or a strong sense of community, the isolation is soul-deadening and maddening. You are alone.
Any slight from someone you care about can feel emotionally traumatizing. After enough rejections and feeling like an outcast, you begin to believe that people are just cruel and not worth the effort. You perceive people as threats.
And the effects on our health are devastating. Here is Dr. Dean Ornish, the founder of the Preventive Medicine Research Institute, on the effects of loneliness:
“I am not aware of any other factor — not diet, not smoking, not exercise, not stress, not genetics, not drugs, not surgery — that has a greater impact on our incidence of illness, and [chance of] premature death.”
Before we ask, “How could he do such a thing?” we have to understand how that person felt on a daily basis, and how those feelings grew over the years.
2- Men in the United States are deprived of play opportunities.
You might be offended by this suggestion.
How could this guy talk about play after a shooting?! Play is for kids!
Wrong.
sapiens play more than any other species. It’s impossible to prevent a human from playing. We play shortly after we are born, and the healthiest (and least stressed) humans tend to play for their entire lives.
Play may be God’s greatest gift to mankind. It’s how we form friendships, and learn skills, and master difficult things that help us survive. Play is a release valve for stress, and an outlet for creativity. Play brings us music, comedy, dance, and everything we value.
Above all, play is how we bond with each other — it’s how we communicate “I am safe to be around, I am not a threat.” Play is how we form connections with other humans.
The irony is that loneliness would not be a problem if we all got ample time to play. Not only would we have deeper friendships, we’d also have better relationships with ourselves. Play allows us to enjoy our own company.
There is a strong correlation with play deprivation and mental illness.
When you deprive mammals of play, it leads to chronic depression. When you deprive a human child of play, their mental and emotional health deteriorate. Play suppression has enormous health consequences.
“But the Vegas shooter loved to gamble! He went on cruises!”
That’s not the type of play I’m talking about.
To better understand this dynamic, we need to look at the background of another mass shooter.
In 1966, Charles Whitman shot his wife and mother. Then, he climbed up the tower at the University of Texas in Austin, and shot 46 people. In total, he murdered 16 people. At the time, this was the biggest mass shooting of its kind in United States history.
Dr. Stuart Brown and his team of researchers were commissioned to find out what “The Texas Sniper” had in common with other mass murderers.
They gained a key insight when they examined their childhoods.
Brown recalls:
“None of them engaged in healthy rough-and-tumble play. The linkages that lead to Charles Whitman producing this crime was an unbelievable suppression of play behavior throughout his life by a very overbearing, very disturbed father.
Healthy and joyful play must be had in order to thrive. Boys need to wrestle with their dads, and they need to roughhouse with other boys. Parents and teachers need to play with their kids.
But more importantly, they need to encourage those kids to go out and play. And then, let them be.
“It’s 10 o’clock. Do you know where your kids are?”
Ever since that famous ad aired, parents have shamed each other into watching their kids like a hawk.
If you let your kid walk up the street alone, you’ll either get a call from another parent, or the cops will pick them up. Our kids are stripped of their right to experience life on their own terms.
In an effort to improve our kids’ test scores and beef up their future resumes, we’ve stripped away nearly all of their free play opportunities. Recess has been sacrificed in the name of Scantrons, and pills are prescribed to the kids whose bodies and minds cry out for play.
The result: A generation of the most anxious, depressed, and suicidal American children on record.
This is in alignment with Dr. Peter Gray’s research, who studied the epidemic of mental illness and the decline in play:
“Over the past half century, in the United States and other developed nations, children’s free play with other children has declined sharply. Over the same period, anxiety, depression, suicide, feelings of helplessness, and narcissism have increased sharply in children, adolescents, and young adults… The decline in play has contributed to the rise in the psychopathology of young people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg-GEzM7iTk
This is why I believe mental illness may be the biggest health crisis of our lifetimes. Because those kids will grow up into isolated adults who don’t know how to play, or seek out their friends when they are lonely. They have no emotional support.
They are alone.
* * *
In the most memorable chapter of So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed, the author describes the research of James Gilligan, a young psychiatrist at Harvard Medical School in the 1970s.
Gilligan was invited to make sense of the Massachusetts’s prisons and mental hospitals, where he interviewed murderous inmates. He included in his notebook this heartbreaking observation:
“They would all say that they themselves had died before they started killing other people… They felt dead inside. They had no capacity for feelings. No emotional feelings. Or even physical feelings.
Universal among the violent criminals was the fact that they were keeping a secret. A central secret. And that secret was that they felt ashamed— deeply ashamed, chronically ashamed, acutely ashamed.
I have yet to see a serious act of violence that was not provoked by the experience of feeling shamed or humiliated, disrespected and ridiculed.”
ALL OF US will face difficult times in our lives where we will experience shame, humiliation, disrespect, and ridicule.
Do you know what gets us through those hard times?
Friendship: The love and support you get, from the people you play with.
I don’t know much about the Vegas shooter. Maybe he was an evil psychopath (like Eric Harris). Maybe he had a psychotic break from pharmaceutical drugs.
Whatever the case, these factors about mass shooters are often true:
- They are deeply lonely. They have no significant friendships to rely on, and very few quality people to confide in.
- They experienced ongoing play deprivation. Their innate abiltiy was crippled, and they struggle to maintain a healthy emotional connection with themselves and others.
- They are deeply ashamed. They experienced extreme ridicule, rejection, or humiliation.
Are there other factors at play here?
Absolutely. Mass shootings are complex, and so are people. They don’t fit perfectly into our narratives.
Do the above three factors always lead to murderous behavior?
Of course not. But over time, they destroy an individual’s emotional health. And that’s the point.
We’ve created a culture where the first two factors — loneliness and play deprivation — affect everyone. And because friendship struggles to take root in this environment, we are more likely to be struck by the third factor — shame.
Even though we’re in the safest period in the history of civilization, these shootings will keep happening in America. They happen every single day. Guns are a part of the problem, and so is the media. But there is a bigger problem:
We are a culture that continually neglects the emotional health of our boys, and our men.
The good news is that you, as an individual, can make a difference.
Reach out to someone who you think could be lonely, and invite them to do something fun together. Keep inviting them. Build trust, and confide in each other. Set the example by being a safe and supportive person to be around.
If you’ve noticed their personality has drastically changed, invite them out for several hours. Be there for them. Encourage them to get professional help. You could save their life.
I read the whole being lonely thing - I think it is a lot of hogwash - the real reason is that society has thrown out God and no longer fear any consequences for their actions - people are taught that humans are just an accident - coming from some slime billions of years ago - no creator that they will have to make an account to in the after life and no moral absolutes - this life is all there is - life is cheap - just look at the millions of babies that have been killed - some guy wants to commit suicide so he takes other innocent victims with him - so what - he has nothing to fear in the after life - God has provided a blueprint of how men should live and when a society deviates from this blueprint you have exactly what is happening -
Now I'm sure some will say - don't bring religion into this - well I'll tell you something - you can't solve the evil that is so prevalent in our society without bringing it into play - without it you are just peeping into the wind -
Oh boy. I'm out of here.
Good luck!
Wow..... here comes the god debate....Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
More people have been murdered in the name of "god", than for any other reason in history.
What is there to fear?
According to your religion, as long as I repent, god will forgive me and welcome me into his arms.
What sense does that make!?
I can go and commit any one of these horrible acts, and still be welcomed into your gods heaven.
Belief in god, or the lack of, has nothing to do with this.
1/3 of Canadians are reported to not believe in god, yet we have far fewer mass shootings and terrorist attacks.
The answer to this problem is not god.
It was an excellent article !!Quote:
Originally Posted by awndray
I have already forwarded it to a couple of people.
Thanks for sharing it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Puc911 - when I refer to God I am referring to Jesus Christ - he taught us to love one another - to do unto to others what we would have them do to us - He taught us a way of life that would give us a good meaningful life and a reward in the after life - He never told us to kill each other - sure there have been times when people killed others in the name of god but they were in no way following His teaching - men must have a change of heart and only then will these senseless killings go away - unfortunately that is not going to happen so we live with what we sow - religion itself is not the answer - its a personal relationship with Jesus that makes the change - Amen -
Joepa - god has nothing to do with it. god is not here. he is not teaching us anything.
We learn from each other. From our parents, our friends, our siblings, our teachers.
People make choices in their lives that lead them down certain paths.
Some people choose to follow religions. Some do not.
Whether people believe in god or not has nothing to do with these events.
I'm a no believer and I could probably argue that (if I had time). The fear of God could definitely prevent this type of even.Quote:
Originally Posted by puc911
What do you think religions have been used for (and created)?! Crazy what fear can make people do, or not....
Joe, there are many more religious people in the States that in Canada, and yet we don't seem to have anywhere near the same level of gun violence.
JoeQuote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
I agree completely but a person has to be willing to open their heart and mind and actually look. It takes time and those willing to preach, teach and stay the course and where they have come up the impact can be huge but most don't want to and will never take the time to look. After all it takes a real effort and most prefer to be told what to think anymore. Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel both started out writing books , no short weekend effort, and talk about how long it took, even Christopher Hitchen's brother Peter has written about his transition from atheism to faith. Then there are the exception like Alister McGrath that writes about how it was biology and the cell that made him start his search. To paraphrase there are a million ways to walk to the door and open it to the One that knocks. They like and are comfortable in not knowing but that said we still need be prepared to give an answer but until they are interested in listening to the knocking their eyes and ears are covered and you will just give them an excuse to rant.
There is also a much larger gang and organized crime problem, I covered it earlier about how 80% of the violence and crime statistics can be attributed to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by 73hunter
https://www.oodmag.com/community/sho...=1#post1037767
Once the cities like Chicago (which has the worst gang problem, the most gun control laws) are taken out their number drops significantly in the per 100,000 and even with those included there are quite a few countries (often with strong gun control laws) that are far worse off. The gang culture needs to be addressed and where there have been successes there are drops in crime but there also needs to be police enforcing the laws and protecting. They have huge issues groups of racists marching calling for dead cops, political correctness not allowing them to profile etc. Even in the UK you see the impact of that...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...w-figures.html
He added: “Knife crime is up because police have been told to cut stop and search. That means members of the public who are carrying knives are not being found as much, and they’re using those weapons. It really is that simple.”
The ONS said overall crime recorded by the police rose by six per cent in the year to September, including a 27 per cent jump in violence against the person.
It isn't the grandma (regardless of colour) they are stopping, yet the police aren't supposed to use profiling but it is a useful tool in reality. Some call it racist but the reality is that some races (due to culture, especially the gang culture) are more proned to having "problematic" individuals. Those groups need both enforcement and help.
Ex. in Canada
http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/j...017/jan02.html
** I think for real change accountability and ending the Indian act would be needed and do you think any politician will attack that and those getting the $10B/year in welfare??? Canada has so many special classes of people and the Liberal's seem to actually be using that, just look at Justlied Trudeau himself, in listing provinces he misses Alberta (and sabotages Energy East... more Saudi oil for years) and then there is this ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA1yCIHMJwY
There needs to be:
1) alternatives to gangs
2) hope and education
3) police enforcement, presence and yes intimidation (that if they do the crime they do the time) not the current do the crime and laugh at the police. ** if a policeman just hears idiots ranting about dead police etc. do you think he is motivated to protect that community???
4) courts willing to put the criminal in jail for reasonable times and apply real sentences (I think the reimbursement plan some talk about should be implemented where they are forced to pay back the victims if possible should also be looked at)
If the only thing preventing someone from committing one of these tragic acts is their fear of going to hell, that's pretty f***ing sad.
When children are raised, should they be taught that they should be helping people because if they don't they will go to hell as punishment? Should they be taught to help others because if they do they will be rewarded with heaven?
Do you teach your kids to do good for rewards? Too not do bad in fear of punishment!?
No. We teach our children to do good and help others because it is the RIGHT THING TO DO.
I do not need god to teach me what is right and wrong. I do not need him to guide me to not commit horrific acts.
I have my own moral compass, which has been given to me by a proper upbringing, from caring parents, friends and family.
Not god.
We are all products of our environment.....Good or bad, the people, places and things in our life have helped shape who we are.
We only know what we know because we have been exposed to it.
So did Paddock.Quote:
Originally Posted by puc911
That is part of the supporting reason, that there IS a better, higher, purer reference point for mankind to benchmark against, strive to be like. Not simply left to the randomness of an individuals "upbringing".
If one chooses to ignore their salvation that is 100% your choice under God's free will of man. EVERYONE gets to make that choice, if they live long enough to accept or reject Jesus Christ.
Where did your parents get their morals, and so on? God wrote the law on the hearts of AJJ men, some choose to abide by it, some don't and some credit other things.
Besides, striving to be Christ like is a bad thing in your opinion? Yet YOU claim you were raised right?
When the first thing a person does when you mention God is they go on about hell you can usually tell two things, after all Hell is for the Satan and the rejects so 1 somewhere they know if there is a God they are a reject but don't want to change their priorities and 2 they know little about what being a Christian is like. I once explained it as being like having a father that knows how and what you did and when you ask for forgiveness and mean it He actually does and having a family that consists of quite a mix. I used some examples from my Church of two people that share my first and middle names (6'4" Thor replacement, 5'5" African...) and a few others as being the brothers (and I mentioned some sisters too) that you may not get along with all the time but they are still part of that family.Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot
** Off topic warning: Hey did anyone see the Mully film?
Now Now... let's get back to the shooting, we can see throughout history those that had what they thought was the right morals for them ... the National Socialists in Germany for example, they are the same as we see in ANTIFA in their views on violence, power etc. I am sure those in the gangs feel they are doing what is right for them too ... so in a way we do get back to what is the basis for their morals. An interesting anime I saw, he was visiting a town were murder wasn't against the law... a murder came to town to kill someone thinking it would be no problem, the second he pulled out his gun to kill his victim everyone in town pulled their gun, knife etc. and killed him on the spot, murder wasn't illegal it but it also wasn't permitted was what the mayor explained to the almost victim. It was an interesting play on the morality of cultures, societies and even groups... but what are they basing it on? How do you bring them into alignment with "the town"? How do you enforce that morality (laws, courts, jail???) ... alot of questions there that except for a few dedicated groups there is little effort to make a real change it seems given Chicago as an example. Other than BAN IT ALL GUN, KNIFE, BAT.... or make more laws that are already ignored.... ???? anything????
Back on topic again....No doubt the shooter was 100 percent bent on killing and I suspect he cared not whom it was.
The "cryptic" note they found will be his drop tables for his firearm. Likely distance, elevation and drop @ those numbers so he could maximize carnage.
Just a psychopath with a big hole in his soul, no empathy. Very odd they are 6 days in and no motive or not one they can release.
Look up, way up, 13 billion light years away.
And tell me that the creator of of everything decided to reveal itself on our planet, in Isreal.
What a pile of BVLL$h!T
Attachment 35897
Look in a mirror, deep, deep into a mirror and realize that you believe you came from a monkey, I'd say you're correct, considering your posts here.
Hmmm.... based on what evidence are you making your claim?Quote:
Originally Posted by johny
Written originally 3,500 years ago those Israel texts say ....
"If I had no other data than the early chapters of Genesis, some of the Psalms and other passages of Scripture, I would have arrived at essentially the same picture of the origin of the universe, as is indicated by the scientific data." Nobel Prize-winning physicist Arno Penzias (Big Bang Theorist)
or maybe just life itself.... after all it was the Oxford PHd in molecular biophysics Alister McGrath that the cell convinced him to look and even become a Christian writer and speaker ... his books, Francis Collins (head of the Human Genome project or John Polkinhorne are good if you are scientifically minded IF you want to look, or Josh McDowell or Lee Strobel if you aren't as scientifically minded) ... or there is the implications of this old quote
"The principle of [divine] purpose ... stares the biologist in the face wherever he looks ... . The probability for such an event as the origin of DNA molecules to have occurred by sheer chance is just too small to be seriously considered ... ."Ernst Boris Chain - Nobel Prize in medicine
Actually never mind answering , if you are comfortable with the idea that the universe popped out of nothing, cell membranes, DNA, RNA, protein synthesis all happened by chance or are just too lazy to search then live with it and let's stay on topic not be insulting. Hmmph ... from goo to you by way of the zoo if you like.
ANYWAY... back on topic.
They are now talking on some media outlets about his cruises to the middle east ... they are stretching for stories and not getting answers and nothing on that note.
Well, as soon as religion gets into a topic, things go south.
Enough complaints have been received about this so.............SLAM!!!!!