I have to reach out to members. Here it is.

Hi folks. Sorry if this is in the wrong thread

Disclaimer: personal information

I’ve been dealing with this situation now for quite some time and January will mark one year.

In January of 2017 I applied for my PAL renewal and when the question pops up about anxiety/depression in the last five years I answered yes like a responsible and ethical person would do. Due to the nature of my job I’ve had to deal with a lot of stress and really messed up situations. If I told you folks half of what I’ve seen and dealt with you wouldn’t believe me even if I shared some stories (which I’m not allowed to). I have sought counselling through work programs and my doctor is well aware of what I deal with and the stress and PTSD I’ve acquired over the years of doing what I do.

So, after waiting a long time to get my PAL renewal paperwork back I finally checked the mail one day and saw an envelope from the CFO office. I excitedly opened it and in the envelop was a slew of paperwork to bring to my doctor. I thought at the time no big deal. I’ve never indicated to my doctor that there was harm to myself or others and he would gladly (for a fee) fill it out and I’d be on my way. WRONG. After leaving it with him for a few weeks his secretary finally calls me back and says he’s not willing to fill it out. I was astonished and saddened at the news and went to retrieve my paperwork like a scorned dog. I immediately contacted the CFO in Whitby and she’s been so great to deal with and has been lenient with extensions to get my paperwork sorted out. Not sure how long I get but I’m running out of options

I’ve been an outstanding member of society, law abiding citizen and responsible gun owner my entire life. I’ve been around firearms my entire existence and my dad did an amazing job raising me to be who I am. Once I left the nest I obviously had to get my own PAL as I wanted my own firearms and venture out into the world with what my dad taught me all those years. The instructor teaching my course laughed when it came time to do the practical and flat out said I should be teaching this course ha ha. My dad taught me well [emoji106]. Also, when he passes I will be inheriting many firearms and some that are quite rare and worth a lot of money, however, now I stand to lose them [emoji17]. Not to mention the sentimental value [emoji20].

As someone who spent countless days outdoors camping, shooting, fishing and hunting this is destroying me inside. I feel as though I’m a victim of the media these days being painted with a really broad brush. So with this said I’m reaching out to members on how to proceed and what other avenues I have. I’m at a loss here folks. Hunting season around the corner and first time in a LONG time Won’t be going out.






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While unfortunate in your case, the system is in place for a reason and might just prevent access to firearms from someone who shouldnt have them at a particular hard time in life.

I believe you can still archery hunt. It might be a bit late to get started now, but its an option. An excalibur crossbow is pretty well like a gun to 30-35m, virtually "point and shoot".

Good luck in getting your PAL back and good luck with your health moving forward.

Have you been able to talk to your doctor directly? You shouldn't have to go through a secretary.

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Originally Posted by blasted_saber

While unfortunate in your case, the system is in place for a reason and might just prevent access to firearms from someone who shouldnt have them at a particular hard time in life.

I believe you can still archery hunt. It might be a bit late to get started now, but its an option. An excalibur crossbow is pretty well like a gun to 30-35m, virtually "point and shoot".

Good luck in getting your PAL back and good luck with your health moving forward.

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I totally understand the need for this. I shake my head at the leniency of the U.S firearms regulations in some states.


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The CFO’s office is your best bet, in terms of what they want or need to approve your renewal. The fact that your doctor is reluctant to do the paperwork would send up red flags for any firearms officer.

you go to another doctor...........you are well spoken

Talk to your doctor, you may find that he/she is an " anti hunter, anti firearms " type of person, if that's the case , find an understanding doctor.

find another doctor . preferably one that hunts!.

your frigging doctor appears to be more concerned about his revenue flow and of course liability!

There are times in life and people in life that at times it doesn't do you any good to be truthful.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

The CFO’s office is your best bet, in terms of what they want or need to approve your renewal. The fact that your doctor is reluctant to do the paperwork would send up red flags for any firearms officer.

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I have my theories, however, I am not opening that can of worms. People have their political views and opinions on gun ownership and that shouldn’t stand in the way.


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Originally Posted by COYHUNTER

you go to another doctor...........you are well spoken

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Ha ha. I’m a terrible writer. I feel you’re being sarcastic.


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Like mentioned, if possible go and get another opinion. I feel for you reading your post, hope you get it figured out. Good luck!

i would look for another doctor as others have said. one who hunts-maybe check a bit farther east towards peterborough. i'm sure there are many others in your line of work who have dealt with this exact situation before. there is a way around it-it just might take some time. and yea, bowhunt for now!!

That has to suck, I hope you get it worked out.

Wow I feel really sorry for this mess you're in, specially trying to deal with an anti gun liberal government and an uncooperative doctor. I do find it quite strange that you didn't even get this refusal from your doctor right to your face rather than through a secretary/receptionist. I know I would have made sure I spoke directly to him to get his reasons. I would go back to him to find out for sure.
That being said, that question in the pal renewal should have raised tons of red flags in your mind when you decided to be too honest and admit that you had some issues in the past. By doing so you should have figured that you were setting yourself up for potential problems.

Good luck with it. I hope it works out for you.

Cheers

Well Musky Hunter I am in exactly the same boat ; we should just go fishing. :)

I've had bipolar disorder since 30 ( 71 this week.) - under excellent control. When I tried to renew my PAL, of course the application says, "Have you ever seen a psychiatrist?" Not one to lie, I said , "yes." That was the end of my PAL possibilities.

I fully understand the Police controls. We've seen in the USA the disasters that uncontrolled mentally ill people with a gun can cause.
Hard to accept though when you are perfectly well.

You can hunt with somebody else and use their gun with supervision ; not the same but better than nothing.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Can+y...hrome&ie=UTF-8

It’s not just about hunting with rifles. It’s about how I grew up. It’s about the responsibility one takes when owning firearms. It’s about teaching my son and daughter when they’re old enough and passing on my knowledge and the respect for firearms, nature and conservatory. I’m not a crazy person. I’m not on any meds. I take Advil once in a while for headaches LOL. Its all work related and before people tell me to leave it ain’t that simple with a family dependent on benefits and coverage. It’s not just about me anymore it’s about my family and the life they have and need.

I’m just a normal guy that enjoys the outdoors and sometimes deal with unbearable work conditions that I have NO control over. I wish I can expand on what I deal with and what I see but I can’t. Most people would revolt in disgust and probably even vomit if I shared some stories. Should this prevent me from responsibly owning firearms ? I sure as heck don’t think so. My job has already changed me to some degrees and I’ll never be the same again, but now it’s taken my joy? My hobby? My life as I grew up? My eventual inheritance ? That’s a pile of BS


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I must say the support and reach out is overwhelming. Already met some people that are similar and have had miserable experiences. It’s nice to see and goes to show what kind of people we are as a group. Maybe I’ll just print this off and show my doctor ha ha ha.


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Originally Posted by Muskyhunter1001

I must say the support and reach out is overwhelming. Already met some people that are similar and have had miserable experiences. It’s nice to see and goes to show what kind of people we are as a group. Maybe I’ll just print this off and show my doctor ha ha ha.


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Arrange another appointment to see your MD. Discuss this with him,specifically,but,don't be confrontational. It's really important to listen without comment,then,make your point. I have a son that was in the same boat. It finally took a full psychiatric assessment,essentially,going over his MD's head (she was incensed,arrogant left winger who didn't like her judgement questioned,but,tough bananas). Once the report was sent to the CFO,he re-applied and the RCMP sent his PAL. It took a long time,but, he eventually won out. Bureaucrats and GP MD's don't ever want to mess with specialists.

Musky I feel your pain my friend. Unfortunately it appears it does not pay to be honest in this case.

You have two options:

Like everyone else said, talk with your doctor and determine why and what he needs to be satisfied to complete the requisite paperwork. He may just simply refer you to someone else.

If that doesn't work, you need to retain a lawyer who can help you work through this. If you check online there are a number of lawyers who specialize in firearms law in Canada.

Don't give up my friend. Find strength and fight this for your kids, your dad and your own wellness. Good luck and keep us posted.

I would make an appointment with the doctor who refused to fill out the paperwork to discuss that decision. Get a sense of if the doctor had an actual medical basis for denying you or did they refuse to fill out paperwork for a non medical reason. If you can present a case that hunting with a firearm is a family tradition that you find therapeutic maybe there will be some justification for the doctor to change their mind if it is a medical refusal. If it is not medical find another doctor. May take a while but eventually you will succeed.

On a personal note, you only get one shot at this life. You need to do what makes you happy. If your job is impacting your quality of life it's time to look for a new one. Lots of jobs have benefits and medical coverage now.

Wow , Musky. That's a tough one and other than meeting the Dr and trying to work it out through him I don't know what to suggest. Perhaps a Lawyer is a good idea at least for some advice ? Or check in with canadiangunnutz .they have a legalese sub forum and many more members than we have here some of whom are law enforcement , Drs and lawyers but as with everything take what you read with a grain of salt.

I think about my own relationship with my family doctor. I see her maybe once per year. She has no idea what goes on in my head & I can see her re-fusing to fill in the form if I asked her to. With todays litigation crazy society I wouldn't blame her. She knows my physical side very well but my mental state not so much.

I really think the RCMP needs to have pre-approved mental health specialists that can truly evaluate individuals when they answer yes to the red-flag questions. How in the heck is a family Doctor supposed to know our mental health? They were not trained for that.

The spousal questions really tick me off as well. Suppose a guy is married to vegetarian anti hunter. I have seen the conflict that this causes when the guy asks his wife to sign off on the form. I think it's ridiculous to ask your spouse to sign on the dotted line.

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Originally Posted by bellerivercrossbowhunter

I think about my own relationship with my family doctor. I see her maybe once per year. She has no idea what goes on in my head & I can see her re-fusing to fill in the form if I asked her to. With todays litigation crazy society I wouldn't blame her. She knows my physical side very well but my mental state not so much.

I really think the RCMP needs to have pre-approved mental health specialists that can truly evaluate individuals when they answer yes to the red-flag questions. How in the heck is a family Doctor supposed to know our mental health? They were not trained for that.

The spousal questions really tick me off as well. Suppose a guy is married to vegetarian anti hunter. I have seen the conflict that this causes when the guy asks his wife to sign off on the form. I think it's ridiculous to ask your spouse to sign on the dotted line.

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I agree. My last ditched attempt will be asking them to send me to whomever they choose to do my assessment they can come to my house. They can interview everybody in my life. They can bug my phone for all I care. I have nothing to hide.

On a side note.... maybe people with anxiety shouldn’t rent Home Depot trucks. Or heck! Maybe we shouldn’t be allowed to drive either !!


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Originally Posted by jaycee

Talk to your doctor, you may find that he/she is an " anti hunter, anti firearms " type of person, if that's the case , find an understanding doctor.

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I totally agree...sometimes the doctor could be having a bad day/week and taking it on the patient...go elsewhere if not satisfied

Some people, weither they are politicians, doctors, police or social workers have preconceived ideas about owning a gun. You won't change their minds......
My local mp refuses to get involved with ANY gun questions because his friends in the GTA feel that it won't make a difference.

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Originally Posted by Muskyhunter1001

Hi folks. Sorry if this is in the wrong thread

Disclaimer: personal information

I’ve been dealing with this situation now for quite some time and January will mark one year.

In January of 2017 I applied for my PAL renewal and when the question pops up about anxiety/depression in the last five years I answered yes like a responsible and ethical person would do. Due to the nature of my job I’ve had to deal with a lot of stress and really messed up situations. If I told you folks half of what I’ve seen and dealt with you wouldn’t believe me even if I shared some stories (which I’m not allowed to). I have sought counselling through work programs and my doctor is well aware of what I deal with and the stress and PTSD I’ve acquired over the years of doing what I do.

So, after waiting a long time to get my PAL renewal paperwork back I finally checked the mail one day and saw an envelope from the CFO office. I excitedly opened it and in the envelop was a slew of paperwork to bring to my doctor. I thought at the time no big deal. I’ve never indicated to my doctor that there was harm to myself or others and he would gladly (for a fee) fill it out and I’d be on my way. WRONG. After leaving it with him for a few weeks his secretary finally calls me back and says he’s not willing to fill it out. I was astonished and saddened at the news and went to retrieve my paperwork like a scorned dog. I immediately contacted the CFO in Whitby and she’s been so great to deal with and has been lenient with extensions to get my paperwork sorted out. Not sure how long I get but I’m running out of options

I’ve been an outstanding member of society, law abiding citizen and responsible gun owner my entire life. I’ve been around firearms my entire existence and my dad did an amazing job raising me to be who I am. Once I left the nest I obviously had to get my own PAL as I wanted my own firearms and venture out into the world with what my dad taught me all those years. The instructor teaching my course laughed when it came time to do the practical and flat out said I should be teaching this course ha ha. My dad taught me well [emoji106]. Also, when he passes I will be inheriting many firearms and some that are quite rare and worth a lot of money, however, now I stand to lose them [emoji17]. Not to mention the sentimental value [emoji20].

As someone who spent countless days outdoors camping, shooting, fishing and hunting this is destroying me inside. I feel as though I’m a victim of the media these days being painted with a really broad brush. So with this said I’m reaching out to members on how to proceed and what other avenues I have. I’m at a loss here folks. Hunting season around the corner and first time in a LONG time Won’t be going out.






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Your first paragraph basically says it all. You have had a lot to deal with along that included counselling from your work place that your doctor is well aware of. I do find it strange that a secretary would pass this message from the doctor to you. Doctors are well aware of the importance of these types of forms especially with regards to your mental health.My wife works at a doctors office and has never had to pass this sort of information/message to a patient. Most professionals would meet with you face to face to discuss reasons for or against filling out the paperwork regardless of politics. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

Your first paragraph basically says it all. You have had a lot to deal with along that included counselling from your work place that your doctor is well aware of. I do find it strange that a secretary would pass this message from the doctor to you. Doctors are well aware of the importance of these types of forms especially with regards to your mental health.My wife works at a doctors office and has never had to pass this sort of information/message to a patient. Most professionals would meet with you face to face to discuss reasons for or against filling out the paperwork regardless of politics. Good luck.

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I agree here, what are the chances that the doctor did not actually say they would not fill out the forms, this is not a professional doctor.

Maybe the nurse never gave it to the Doctor in the first place.?? I would definitely make an apt to see the Dr.

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Originally Posted by Hunter John

Maybe the nurse never gave it to the Doctor in the first place.?? I would definitely make an apt to see the Dr.

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Oh trust me I spoke to my doctor. Basically told him what I shared here and nothin. Couldn’t get me out of his office fast enough. The secretary is awesome to deal. My doctor has been understanding with my issues when it comes to work and supports me 100%. He is just anti firearm I think.


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The question for the doctor is whether his refusal is based on a medical reason. If not, find a new doctor, and let the CFO know. They are aware that sometimes people won't help for reasons that have nothing to do with the applicant.

If he does say it's a medical opinion, you can always get a second one. But your doctor's medical opinion will carry more weight with the CFO.

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It's only a matter to time, that governments will decides that 'Public safety' outweighs 'Privacy Concerns' and a Dr. will be required by law to flag you, if he feels you're mentally unstable, thereby making it impossible for you to ever get a firearm license or have the one you have taken away.

At present, volunteering of that information seems not to be working. In most of the aftermaths, they find the shooters were know to or suspected of being unstable, yet had legal firearms.

Contact Solomon Friedman , Canadian firearm Lawyer.
http://firearmslaw.ca/

Or Edward Burlew
http://www.canadianlawlist.com/listi...ward-l-678900/

They are 2 of Canada's best and well known lawyers with respect to firearms and will be able to advise you how to best move forward.

Have you tried discussing with councillor, can they fill out the forms?

I would go into my doctor and ask why

I would ask for a specialist referral. Sounds like a CYA by your doctor. If the specialist concurs with your doctor then maybe they're concerns are justified. A GP isn't qualified to make that call IMO. It's a hot potato issue that your GP doesn't want to deal with.

His medical file would go with him if he found a new doctor containing his life medical history. This may backfire on him and open up a whole new can of worms especially if the doctor should of reported him in the first place. Of course this is a hypothetical type scenario.

Exactly. A new Dr is not a fresh start in many ways.

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Originally Posted by Sharon

Exactly. A new Dr is not a fresh start in many ways.

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Yep. If the new doctor agrees with the old doctor,now,there's two of them against you and you're really screwed forever.

I'm not sure that's always the case as I've experienced a little back stabbing in the doctor fraternity. A few times I've been asked why I'm on such and such then get a med or dosage changed by another doctor. These guys are professionals and as such, like to voice their opinion as well.
Can't hurt going to another sawbones since the current one isn't helping. Two times zero is still zero.

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Originally Posted by Muskyhunter1001

I agree. My last ditched attempt will be asking them to send me to whomever they choose to do my assessment they can come to my house. They can interview everybody in my life. They can bug my phone for all I care. I have nothing to hide.

On a side note.... maybe people with anxiety shouldn’t rent Home Depot trucks. Or heck! Maybe we shouldn’t be allowed to drive either !!


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Musky I know you joke but look it up, there have been more then a few cases where patients with PTSD have had their drivers license taken away here in Ontario. I'm not saying it is right by any means but it does exist. Hope you find a favourable resolution. Good luck

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Originally Posted by sab81

Musky I know you joke but look it up, there have been more then a few cases where patients with PTSD have had their drivers license taken away here in Ontario. I'm not saying it is right by any means but it does exist. Hope you find a favourable resolution. Good luck

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It’s sad to hear that. I’m going to make another appointment and see how that goes. It’ll be my last attempt at reasoning with him


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Originally Posted by Muskyhunter1001

It’s sad to hear that. I’m going to make another appointment and see how that goes. It’ll be my last attempt at reasoning with him


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That's what would be the best approach. If that still doesn't work,ask for a referral to a Psychiatrist. You may also visit a mental health clinic and speak to a Doctor,there,too. They're considerably more approachable than one would think. If that fails,maybe,you'd be wise to re-think your situation and hunt with archery equipment,exclusively. Best of luck.

First. This sucks that this is happening to you. Sorry to hear...but remember, it's just a setback, so let's work with what we got.

All of us suffer with anxiety at some point or another...some have better coping tools than others, so it hits people in different ways. Heck, we know for a fact that the RCMP has plenty of officers who suffer from anxiety in one form or another...and they have guns. So, it's no big deal. I also admire your honesty for wanting to be up front on the forms and being brave enough to come onto forums...with complete strangers...and letting us know what happened. Bravo, sir.

If you would have asked me at the time, I would have recommended against putting that information in the form, with the following in mind...and you probably already know this:
- Behavioral issues such as anxiety/depression are not understood by either the medical or law enforcement authorities. Medical is about fixing your body, not the mind or your behavior, i.e. they'll give you pills and that's all they can do, and the pills they give usually don't make things better from a behavioral perspective. Law enforcement (RCMP)...well...they have no clue. In addition, none of them know you in the way that is needed to make a good assessment so they'll just toss you into what ever system they've made up to address general cases...which they've already done.
- not putting this on the form is making a call on what is relevant and what is not. So...the question becomes: is your current behavioral reaction to stress relevant to owning a firearm.

So...

What I'd recommend now is counselling on this issue with someone other than those two systems...like an anxiety counselor (link below). From there, you both can determine objectively, given your case, if owning fire-arms is the right move at this time, and it might not be.....yet :P. You can then have the confidence knowing the truth that the other two systems are full of carp(lol). From your OP, I think this might be a more important issue than the PAL at this time.

So, if you're struggling with anxiety or need some tools to help you get to the place you want to be, I'd recommend these guys. They really are the best at what they do:
https://anxietycentre.com

Also, read anything by Claire Weeks :P

Also...message me if you want to talk further.

God Bless,
tcs

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Originally Posted by tcsgamer

If you would have asked me at the time, I would have recommended against putting that information in the form ... not putting this on the form is making a call on what is relevant and what is not. So...the question becomes: is your current behavioral reaction to stress relevant to owning a firearm.

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No, the question is whether in the past five years you have suffered from, been diagnosed with, or been treated for depression or a behavioral or emotional disorder.

This is a question of fact. Whether the facts are relevant is not for the applicant to decide.

You are counselling people reading this thread to commit an offence.


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Originally Posted by trimmer21

That's what would be the best approach. If that still doesn't work,ask for a referral to a Psychiatrist. You may also visit a mental health clinic and speak to a Doctor,there,too. They're considerably more approachable than one would think. If that fails,maybe,you'd be wise to re-think your situation and hunt with archery equipment,exclusively. Best of luck.

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I don't think I've ever disagreed with you Trimmer, but definitely he should NOT see a psychiatrist. If he does that he is definitely finished when it comes to guns., based on my experience.Psychiatrists are even more cautious than a family Dr.

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Originally Posted by Sharon

I don't think I've ever disagreed with you Trimmer, but definitely he should NOT see a psychiatrist. If he does that he is definitely finished when it comes to guns., based on my experience.Psychiatrists are even more cautious than a family Dr.

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As mentioned,my son's experience was the opposite,but,I certainly respect your position. Maybe,he hit the right Doc at the right time,who knows?

I hear you. Definitely doctors have a difficult role. So one is easy going and lets someone with mental health issues keep their gun , and that person commits suicide with that gun. Guess who gets sued by the dead person's family? Guess who may likely lose their license? I understand why most take the "no gun" route.

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Originally Posted by Sharon

I don't think I've ever disagreed with you Trimmer, but definitely he should NOT see a psychiatrist. If he does that he is definitely finished when it comes to guns., based on my experience.Psychiatrists are even more cautious than a family Dr.

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This is a total untruth, there are many reasons to see a Psychiatrist that have nothing to do with anything that would keep you from being able to have firearms.

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Originally Posted by Muskyhunter1001

I agree. My last ditched attempt will be asking them to send me to whomever they choose to do my assessment they can come to my house. They can interview everybody in my life. They can bug my phone for all I care. I have nothing to hide.

On a side note.... maybe people with anxiety shouldn’t rent Home Depot trucks. Or heck! Maybe we shouldn’t be allowed to drive either !!


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Its a tough spot your in...I would see every doctor on the planet until you get one to sign...there are psychiatrists out there who will sign it just keep looking.

Life gets tough sometimes and your in tight spot but keep trying and youll get it.

Its probably alot easier if you arent clinically labelled with a certain disorder...if its just general depression or stress I would go see a doctor and tell him it was a rough time for you but you overcame it and are back and better then ever...maybe if you can prove to the doctor(s) you are fine, they will have an easier time signing it.

I would bet the doctor you dropped the paper off at just said no so he didnt have tl read it and its easy to say no if your not there...bring it back to him and tell him your fine now and ask him to sign it in front of you.

otherwise bow hunting is you new best friend...ive not had an issue harvesting deer with archery equipment and my freezer always has venison in it!

I just think its funny you can get a prescription for weed over video conference but then ask a doctor to sign your papers so you can hunt and they look at you like you have 2 heads...no money in it for him and prob anti-hunter.

My doctors office referred me but that was in February. It’s now November ha ha. If that’s the case our medical field isn’t really ensuring timely assessments for mental health. If my doctor or the people he referred me to thought it was important they would have contacted me. I’ve been waiting since February to talk to someone


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My doctors office referred me but that was in February. It’s now November ha ha. If that’s the case our medical field isn’t really ensuring timely assessments for mental health. If my doctor or the people he referred me to thought it was important they would have contacted me. I’ve been waiting since February to talk to someone

If it was that important wouldn’t I have seen somebody by now?


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Originally Posted by welsh

No, the question is whether in the past five years you have suffered from, been diagnosed with, or been treated for depression or a behavioral or emotional disorder.

This is a question of fact. Whether the facts are relevant is not for the applicant to decide.

You are counselling people reading this thread to commit an offence.


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I would disagree with the black and white argument that you are proposing...these types of issues don't work that way so engaging with systems that treat it as such is not helpful, and that is precisely the problem.

Again....going by what we have with the OP, this may not be a disorder at all (...that is the technical term being disputed here,...), but simply a man needing better tools to cope with the stress of his job which he never got from either work nor from his GP. Is it an offence to council being more discerning about whether that is the case apart from the avenues he's looked to already (i.e. RCMP, Medical, work...all of which know nothing of the issue, really), I would argue that it is not. Also....as I've stated...maybe after getting a deeper look at the issue, he...and his councilor...may determine he shouldn't have a firearm, that is certainly an outcome he'd have to accept.

Regardless, I wish the OP the best with this.

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Originally Posted by COYHUNTER

you go to another doctor...........you are well spoken

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Agreed. Find another doctor. Your doc might be against hunting and shooting.

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Originally Posted by tcsgamer

I would disagree with the black and white argument that you are proposing...these types of issues don't work that way so engaging with systems that treat it as such is not helpful, and that is precisely the problem.

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You would disagree, and you would remain wrong.

The application for a PAL does not ask the applicant to make judgment calls regarding his fitness. It asks the applicant to answer questions of fact.

Whether a person has been treated for or diagnosed with a disorder is a question of fact. If the answer is yes -- say, if I was diagnosed 4 years ago as clinically depressed -- and I answer "No," I commit an offence. My own judgment as to my current fitness to own a firearm is not relevant, and neither is the judgment of any other person. If the fact is true, you must answer "Yes."

The grey area and the judgment calls follow, but the judgments are not the applicant's to make. You may feel that the people called on to make those judgments are ill qualified, but that doesn't change the question of fact.

Advising someone to lie on the application is unhelpful. You are suggesting he should expose himself to a five-year jail sentence to avoid paperwork hell.

Incidentally, you should look up S.464 of the Criminal Code. You may find it instructive.

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Originally Posted by welsh

You would disagree, and you would remain wrong.

The application for a PAL does not ask the applicant to make judgment calls regarding his fitness. It asks the applicant to answer questions of fact.

Whether a person has been treated for or diagnosed with a disorder is a question of fact. If the answer is yes -- say, if I was diagnosed 4 years ago as clinically depressed -- and I answer "No," I commit an offence. My own judgment as to my current fitness to own a firearm is not relevant, and neither is the judgment of any other person. If the fact is true, you must answer "Yes."

The grey area and the judgment calls follow, but the judgments are not the applicant's to make. You may feel that the people called on to make those judgments are ill qualified, but that doesn't change the question of fact.

Advising someone to lie on the application is unhelpful. You are suggesting he should expose himself to a five-year jail sentence to avoid paperwork hell.

Incidentally, you should look up S.464 of the Criminal Code. You may find it instructive.

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Unfortunately for the OP, this is the case. The question IS black or white, there is no grey area. I highly doubt that anyone from the CFO’s office, AFO or PFO would approve a similar application. They are just not going to take that chance.....IMHO, the OP’s only option at this point is to take up bow hunting in the short term. If after a few years of no issues, another attempt at obtaining a licence can be made.

/sigh.

The statement that is clearly causing trouble is this:

"If you would have asked me at the time, I would have recommended against putting that information in the form, with the following in mind..."

There are two ways of going about that objective...:
1) fill out the form, omit the information.
2) wait...don't fill out the form in the first place.

I have no idea why the assumption is the former when the later is also applicable...but that is the internet for you: always assume the worse of the other person. Nowhere on my response do I say "lie on the form", as Welsh hamfistedly assumes. I assume that the OP is a moral agent and can make a decision between 1) and 2) on his own.

Lastly, and this is where I will sign off on this issue because Welsh is clearly determined to be uncharitable in assuming criminal intent on my part (seriously...wow...this forum certainly lives up to its reputation of wild swing and misses...): The OP has not specifically said anything about whether not he was diagnosed with any disorder (again...that is a key word) at all, only that he got, and I quote: "I have sought counselling through work programs and my doctor..." due to "stress at work". Getting "counseling at work...and my doctor" and being "diagnosed with a disorder" are not the same things in both the medical and legal sense...not even close.

Have a good day, all...and again: Good luck, sir. I do highly recommend that sight that I linked.

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Originally Posted by tcsgamer

1) fill out the form, omit the information.

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Knowingly omitting information is the same offence as giving a false answer.

In any case, the question is Yes/No. You can't really leave the fact out.

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Originally Posted by tcsgamer

2) wait...don't fill out the form in the first place.

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The PAL expires. You can only wait so long. The police will give latitude for an expired PAL if you are stuck in paperwork hell, but knowingly allowing it to expire to avoid providing potentially disqualifying info....

Neither is a practical option. The only "coulda woulda shoulda" solution is to get your ducks in a row before sending in the renewal, and then send the form in early (because you know renewal will take longer) with a doctor lined up to take care of the additional paperwork. But this doesn't help the OP, who may not own a functioning time machine.

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Originally Posted by tcsgamer

The OP has not specifically said anything about whether not he was diagnosed with any disorder....

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The OP did, however, answer the question in the affirmative. I'm operating under the bold assumption that he's more familiar with the facts of his case than you are. If he felt he had to answer Yes then I'll take his word for it.

Every time I see a thread like this, be it for mental health or job loss or whatever, someone always suggests giving a false answer or leaving that info out ... that is very bad advice, and yet there it is, for the next guy who has a similar problem to read.



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Once in a while not following the rules is the only option. I can't remember the last time I was asked my PAL by a CO....


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Originally Posted by seabast

I can't remember the last time I was asked my PAL by a CO....

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They don't ask, they don't care...they say that is the RCMP's responsibility, not theirs....I didn't argue :)

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Originally Posted by seabast

Once in a while not following the rules is the only option. I can't remember the last time I was asked my PAL by a CO....


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Police will certainly ask for it. The very last thing any firearm owner wants to do is to get caught in a lie. If it's found that someone failed to disclose or outright lied to get/keep a PAL,they'll wish they hadn't in very quick order. After that,the ramifications will be permanent and very far-reaching.

Although I don't know the extent of the original poster's mental health or history, I find this situation troubling. Being denied access to cross the border, hunt or take a particular job etc. seems like it would be a deterrent for many people from seeking medical attention for their mental illness, which could make things worse for that individual. In this day and age, where we have made great strides in diagnosing and treating mental health it seems odd that you could potentially be denied some sort of privilege because you ticked a box in a form stating that you have an anxiety disorder.

IMO it should be up to the doctor to flag any serious concerns - they should be required to back it up with a patient's medical history, rather than just 'err on the side of caution.'

That said, I am unaware of any law that gives the RCMP access to your medical records without a warrant. I have read that when someone calls 911, you are basically calling the police, and that incident (say, a mental breakdown) could be accessible in a database. Your discussions with your doctors (with certain exceptions) remain private.

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Originally Posted by justinj

. Your discussions with your doctors (with certain exceptions) remain private.

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That theory about privacy isn't true....take for example an eye test. If the optometrist finds your vision isn't good they are required by law to 'pull your license'. There are a few guys around here that are too scared to get their eyes checked because the local Dr does just that.

Same with a medical condition that will affect your driving.

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Physicians and optometrists are required to report any patient who may be suffering from a medical or visual condition that may impair their driving. Police may also report drivers who they feel may be medically unfit to drive.
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/saf...tandards.shtml

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Like I said earlier, it's just a matter of time before mental health professions will be required by law to submit their concerns/finding to the RCMP in regards to firearms ownership.

And from the point of view as a citizen, I know a couple of guys who don't have and shouldn't have easy access to guns...they may not agree...but they're in no position to be objective.

To support my above statement:

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On Sept 1, 2008 Québec's gun control legislation, Bill 9, came into force. The legislation is dubbed Anastasia's Law in memory of 18 year old Anastasia DeSousa, who was killed during the Sept 2006 Dawson College shooting. The law bans the possession of firearms in schools and daycare centres, and on public and school transportation. Under the new rules, teachers, gun club owners, and public transit and health-care workers are also required to report suspicious behaviour relating to firearms, even if it contradicts doctor-patient or any other confidentiality.4

Health services are provincially regulated and would need to be approached one province at a time. This has been problematic in light of the privacy issues surrounding mental health, which also needs to be further addressed. An example of the types of existing unresolved mental health issues is represented by the Ontario Medical Association (OMA). 5

Prior to 2003, the OMA Forms Committee initiated discussions with the Chief Firearms Office to review and revise the process of information collection from physicians whose patients were identified as potentially "high risk" for possession of a firearm. While the content of the form was successfully revised, the process for obtaining the firearms licence remains an issue. The process for obtaining a Firearms licence involves:

Completion of an application form by the applicant, which is then reviewed by officials in Miramichi, New Brunswick
Most of the patients referred to physicians for an opinion will be high-risk patients whose problems are clearly identified either through the applicant screening process or reference interviews.
The physician's report is very often used as a stop mechanism, thus preventing high-risk individuals from obtaining a firearms licence. Not only does government place physicians in a difficult position by requesting confidential and potentially damaging information on their patients, but government also refuses to pay for the form, leaving physicians to collect fees for their services from patients - and possibly placing physician safety in jeopardy.
The OMA is seeking timely resolution to this matter, and is prepared to resume negotiations. Physicians are requested not to complete the "Firearms Office Authorization for Release of Medical Information Form" until further notice.

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If you read thru the link below you can see the work already in place making Public Safety trump Privacy concerns.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/pubs/fire-.../pg9-5-eng.htm

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Originally Posted by MikePal

To support my above statement:



If you read thru the link below you can see the work already in place making Public Safety trump Privacy concerns.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/pubs/fire-.../pg9-5-eng.htm

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As far as I can see,none of these "recommendations" were ever enacted. Most of them wouldn't pass a Charter challenge. They're far too intrusive. This is the type of draconian legislation we need to guard against if we believe in a free and democratic society. There's simply no excuse.

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Originally Posted by Muskyhunter1001

I totally understand the need for this. I shake my head at the leniency of the U.S firearms regulations in some states.


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There is no variance state-to-state as far as applying to purchase a firearm. Every firearms purchase requires you to fill out a federal form 4473, which includes a section relating to mental illness/incapacity. I would argue that U.S. firearms background checks are just as intensive, if not more so, than Canada's. Canada requires a background check for a PAL that is good for 5 years. The U.S. requires a background check for every firearms purchase, at the time of purchase.

Regarding the U.S. mental health section (11 f.) on the background check, here's the relevant section:

"A determination by a court, board, commission or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition or disease: (1) is a danger to himself or others; or (2) lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs."

Canada would do well to remove the ambiguity from its current process. Right now, the decision is in the hands of general practitioners with unknown agendas and little to no training in diagnosing or treating mental health issues. Requiring a legal finding of mental incapacity should be required as grounds for refusal, not just hoping your GP doesn't use his position to foist his political beliefs on his patients.

Musky, the fact that your doc won't even discuss the matter with you tells you all you need to know, which is that you need a new doctor, PAL application or no. You're the customer. Vote with your feet.

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Originally Posted by Crawdad Six

The U.S. requires a background check for every firearms purchase, at the time of purchase.

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Untrue. This is required only for purchases from FFL holders.

Also, US background checks rule out only those people who have been adjudicated mentally unfit. In some states this will screen out only those who have been involuntarily committed to a mental institution. Neither do background checks affect possession; the system assumes that mental health status never changes.

It's a poor model.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Untrue. This is required only for purchases from FFL holders.

Also, US background checks rule out only those people who have been adjudicated mentally unfit. In some states this will screen out only those who have been involuntarily committed to a mental institution. Neither do background checks affect possession; the system assumes that mental health status never changes.

It's a poor model.

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You think any model you didn't design, build and paint is "a poor model."

Where do you get this stuff about the law assuming mental health (or conviction) status never changes? If you've been adjudicated as mentally defective, you are not allowed to possess firearms, even if they were previously acquired. Same as with felony convictions.

Guy that shot up the church in Texas? Was legally forbidden to possess firearms due to his Bad Conduct Discharge from the Air Force. He was also forbidden to murder all those folks by state and federal law. Turns out criminals don't care about laws forbidding criminal acts. You're fooling yourself if you believe you can perfect humanity through regulation.

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Originally Posted by Crawdad Six

Where do you get this stuff about the law assuming mental health (or conviction) status never changes?

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The assumption that mental health status does not change is inherent to a system where background checks apply only at time of sale.

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Anyway, to return to the original topic:

Musky, my PAL is currently processing, as well. Who knows how long it will take to approve or even if it will BE approved? I've been here seven years but I'm not a citizen. I could get rejected for any or no reason, I guess.

So here's what I decided: Control the things you can control.

That means I went out and got me a crossbow and some bolts. If the worst comes to pass, I'll still be able to enjoy hunting in Canada. I can always go south of the border to get my fill of shooting.

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Originally Posted by Crawdad Six

Guy that shot up the church in Texas? Was legally forbidden to possess firearms due to his Bad Conduct Discharge from the Air Force. He was also forbidden to murder all those folks by state and federal law.

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Can't comment on the aspects of this as relating to Canada, but it was reported a day or so ago that the U.S. Air Force, in their infinite wisdom, neglected to report the history of this violent individual to the authorities which regulate firearm purchases in the U.S.A. following the BCD (Bad Conduct Discharge) as they were required to under U.S. law. If they had done so, the shooter would not have been able to purchase firearms from any FFL dealers (but still would have been able to purchase privately). I presume there is more than a little sweat within Air Force command ranks about that oversight, since it's pretty much guaranteed that several high-dollar lawsuits will be forthcoming in the litiginous environment there.

Of course, the major disparity there is a lack of a PAL-type system such as Canada's, where each individual is checked prior to being able to purchase legally whether from dealers or privately - other than the gang-bangers who buy smuggled.

without your pal, would you still be able to gun hunt by sharing a gun with someone who has their pal? For example there are new hunters on this board who have pals, but nobody to teach them well like how your father taught you. Would you be willing to be a mentor like this?

Also, what is the real worst part of this? Is it losing the inherited firearms? Is it the family momentos that would be lost? Is that where the real value of your family's hunting tradition is? Or is it not being able to hunt with a gun which may be your only option of putting good meat on the table? could it be your pride clouding your better judgement on what to do here?

And what are we honestly weighing this against? An anti hunter doctor who doesn't even know you? A doctor who knows you long and well along with the issues at stake? General Public safety? Firearms rights in Canada?

It just seems like there's so much more questions that need to be addressed here

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Originally Posted by seabast

Once in a while not following the rules is the only option. I can't remember the last time I was asked my PAL by a CO....


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

They don't ask, they don't care...they say that is the RCMP's responsibility, not theirs....I didn't argue :)

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Got asked this year when I took Jems duck hunting at Hullett Marsh. CO was waiting at the boat launch and asked to see our PALs. Just because some don't ask for it doesn't mean that firearms operators shouldn't have it.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Police will certainly ask for it. The very last thing any firearm owner wants to do is to get caught in a lie. If it's found that someone failed to disclose or outright lied to get/keep a PAL,they'll wish they hadn't in very quick order. After that,the ramifications will be permanent and very far-reaching.

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x2. Right now, with a few exceptions such as the OP's case, it is a fairly easy process to obtain your PAL. If guys start to lie on the form to get out of answering questions which may need additional clarification or possibly disqualify them from obtaining a PAL and the public finds out about it, how much more difficult will it become to obtain a PAL/firearms?

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Originally Posted by OldNewGuy

Of course, the major disparity there is a lack of a PAL-type system such as Canada's, where each individual is checked prior to being able to purchase legally whether from dealers or privately - other than the gang-bangers who buy smuggled.

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The State of Illinois has a system similar to Canada's PAL, called the FOID card. As of yesterday, 3,189 people have been shot in the city of Chicago during 2017.

Draw your own conclusions.

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Originally Posted by Crawdad Six

The State of Illinois has a system similar to Canada's PAL, called the FOID card. As of yesterday, 3,189 people have been shot in the city of Chicago during 2017.

Draw your own conclusions.

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Crime guns in Chicago are sourced outside Illinois and exchanged through trusted networks. There is no border to cross. This has been extensively studied.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Crime guns in Chicago are sourced outside Illinois and exchanged through trusted networks. There is no border to cross. This has been extensively studied.

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So PAL-type cards and restrictive firearms laws have no effect on the behavior of criminals and only serve to make life more difficult for the already law-abiding?

You don't say.

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Originally Posted by Crawdad Six

So PAL-type cards and restrictive firearms laws have no effect on the behavior of criminals and only serve to make life more difficult for the already law-abiding?

You don't say.

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The existence of an international border affects matters.

You're debating a settled point.

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Originally Posted by Crawdad Six

The State of Illinois has a system similar to Canada's PAL, called the FOID card. As of yesterday, 3,189 people have been shot in the city of Chicago during 2017.

Draw your own conclusions.

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Hmmm. I'm guessing the "purchase legally (as in through a FFL dealer)" and "smuggled in by gang-bangers" wasn't picked up on - and I'm sure the same would apply to Chicago. Factor in the astounding numbers of handguns and other non-hunting firearms available through private sellers (in Chicago or elsewhere) plus any resulting from criminal activity, and the difference in situations becomes slightly less muddied in comparison to Canada, at least.

When was the last time you went to a garage sale on a small town or suburban street and saw one (or more) handguns laying on a table, or even the odd AR-15? I've encountered such, working for a U.S. employer, when I ended up having to stay over a weekend due to an ongoing project - and out of boredom on a Saturday went cruising garage sales, where some poor lady, recently widowed, decides to clear out her deceased husband's firearms, quite legal to do that in most states. I'm not going to say every local garage sale has items for sale which would be slightly offbeat in Canada, but it does happen (and frustrates me because I can't take advantage of it due to my non-landed status, to be frank).:sad:

Can someone help me understand this situation... If someone is buying a gun to do harm ... and the application currently relies on that individual to be honest and declare if they are depressed, etc. ... does that make sense?

You might say, you'll get into a whole lot of trouble if the police find out you lied ... well, if a person is going to do harm, won't it be too late, and perhaps they don't care if they lied anyhow, because they are about to do something much worse.

The reason I say this is I sympathize with the OP. He's being honest, and assuming his doctor is just being impersonal with his decisions (he simply might not want to take liability no matter what). And because he's being honest, now he has a whole world of challenges to deal with. That in my mind discourages people from cooperating (not that I'm saying you'd do that, OP). I see the current system as being a bit flawed, and think there should be a level of independence of investigation (maybe all doctors must sign off PAL ... okay don't go crazy guys, just a suggestion), and more accurate definitions in regards to who is safe and not (so doctors don't have to feel like they are taking on liability). I don't know ... something just doesn't seem right with the current way of doing things.