Deer overharvest

Many deer hunter friends report a decline in deer numbers in recent years in southern ON. Personally I notice less road kills and sightings throughout the year.
Although there are various reasons for deer population declines, I suspect that the extended season is partially responsible. With the addition of lengthy bow and black powder seasons hunters have more than 2 months to fill tags. IMO there is really no difference in the killing effectiveness of a scoped black powder gun and a rifle if you are selective in your shot. Do we require an additional gun season? Furthermore, cross bows are more accurate and lethal than ever. We're not hunting prairie deer!
Any comments?

Not to be a dik...................but if you really believe there aren't that many deer in your area, don't hunt them.

Crossbows and muzzleloaders are only tools to help manage our wildlife. Filling our tags with these tools only makes it more cool if you ask me.

I’ll grab the popcorn !!

Additional tags are issued with the idea of reducing a population that is in over abundance. Thats the whole point of them. Southern ON saw unprecedented deer populations over the past twenty years due to intensive agriculture giving deer an excellent food source and tag quotas were increased to bring that population down. It worked.

While we as hunters may want a deer behind every tree in the forest, its not ideal for the population as a whole.

We had a three month archery season before additional tags came and went. One tag is one tag regardless of what you use to fill it. I don't see the problem.

Are you complaining that deer hunting has become too much like hunting in your area?

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Originally Posted by GW11

We had a three month archery season before additional tags came and went. One tag is one tag regardless of what you use to fill it. I don't see the problem.

Are you complaining that deer hunting has become too much like hunting in your area?

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Are seasons too long? I don't want to limit tags for everyone just control the harvest so we sustain the population

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

I’ll grab the popcorn !!

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Grab me a bag to eh? This one is likely to get good.

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Don't be a s spectator join the discussion

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Originally Posted by fratri

Not to be a dik...................but if you really believe there aren't that many deer in your area, don't hunt them

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^^This.

Personally I have seen more deer this season than ever in the 35 years I have spent hunting them. In 6 sits with the crossbow this season I have seen 17 different does and 3 different bucks live - not on camera. I am also seeing deer on roads where I have never seen them before and these are roads that I have driven daily for 20+ years. No shortage in southern Ontario - got tags - fill em any way legal.

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Originally Posted by seedoc

Are seasons too long? I don't want to limit tags for everyone just control the harvest so we sustain the population

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Who says the current population is not sustainable?

Id hazard a guess we couldnt wipe out deer from southern ON if we tried.

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Originally Posted by seedoc

Don't be a s spectator join the discussion

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I would but I feel as though she's going to be a little one-sided. Each farm I hunt and even back home where I rifle hunt the deer are thicker than thieves. Our group saw multiple deer every day during the moose hunt and multuple doe/fawn groups on the cams. We had a great spring for fawns and a great summer for food.

I understand your concern for over - harvest, but we're nowhere near that issue yet. As Frati said above, if you're worried, don't buy a tag this year. Lot of fall fishing still to be had.


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Originally Posted by seedoc

Are seasons too long? I don't want to limit tags for everyone just control the harvest so we sustain the population

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That depends. It's only long enough to fill your tag or not. My Dad's season this year was one day. He shot a doe on the archery opener. On the other hand, he's hunted the entire three month season without success and almost no sightings.

I would say there was a slight over harvest in some areas when additional tags weren't cut back in time but we're nowhere near 100% success here in Ontario. The length of the season isn't as important as the number of tags issued. Antlerless tags are issued depending on whether or not he population can sustain it and everyone gets a buck tag.

I'm not sure how long you've been hunting but I can see why you might think this way if you started 10 or 15 years ago when the population was booming. We're a little lower than normal here in 73 and 74 but I would say deer populations are closer to normal right now in most places than we have been in a long time.

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Glad to hear that members are seeing abundance of deer. I only report what I hear from others that claim the population is down. My area has deer but not as many as previous years. Thanks for the response and good luck next week everyone

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Originally Posted by seedoc

Glad to hear that members are seeing abundance of deer. I only report what I hear from others that claim the population is down. My area has deer but not as many as previous years. Thanks for the response and good luck next week everyone

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To be clear, "normal" around here is not "seeing an abundance" of deer. I'm lucky to see one deer in every 8 or 10 sits. Sometimes more often and sometimes less.

I realize that's not normal for Southern Ontario where sightings are more frequent, nor would it be normal for the North where sightings would be lower.

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Numbers are good. At least in my area.

We definitely here fewer shots opening morning of the rifle hunt than ever before. But interestingly though our harvest has never been better.

Not seeing deer doesn't mean they aren't there....I hunt with 5 guys during the rifle week. I see lots of deer in the same bush areas where some of the guys don't see any for the entire week.

If you go by what they said/saw you'd take away from the discussion there was NO deer in the area. Some hunters just don't have luck or aren't very good.

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Originally Posted by Hunter1983

We definitely here fewer shots opening morning of the rifle hunt than ever before. But interestingly though our harvest has never been better.

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That's a fact, the hunt camp numbers here aren't 1/2 what they used to be. A couple around here have closed down. Not near as many guys hunt anymore, lots to do with not being able to afford the time or cost. Nary a shot fired anymore at the crack of dawn.

...I assume that's what you meant ..LOL

No shortage in 92B in fact the farmers are steaming mad that the deer are destroying the crops Big time. We definitely need more than one seal in my area. I have not even hunted in Ontario yet because I am saving my seal for the controlled hunt next week...

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Originally Posted by MikePal

That's a fact, the hunt camp numbers here aren't 1/2 what they used to be. A couple around here have closed down. Not near as many guys hunt anymore, lots to do with not being able to afford the time or cost. Nary a shot fired anymore at the crack of dawn.

...I assume that's what you meant ..LOL

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Last year driving around the public land I saw 2 trucks with guys in orange and 3 trucks in total, at least it is a lot safer hunting public land around here now.

Everyone knows that Deer hunting in Ohio is spectacular. Our MNR can learn a great deal from them. They have a similar habitat to Southern Ontario & have a very healthy deer population with plenty of big bucks? Ever wonder why? They don't gun hunt during the rut!! Check out the season dates below. Trophy deer in Ontario receive the most pressure during the peak of the rut (next week) and in some areas they get pounded for 2 weeks. If the big bucks have a better chance of breeding does then that = a higher fawn production. Seems too simple...lol

White-tailed Deer Hunting Ohio.




Opening Date

Closing Date

Daily Bag Limit


Deer Archery September 30, 2017 February 4, 2018 The statewide bag limit is six deer. Only one may be antlered. You cannot exceed an individual county bag limit .

Refer to the Deer Hunting Section for details on zone and bag limits.
Deer Youth Gun
November 18, 2017
November 19, 2017

Deer Gun
November 27, 2017
December 3, 2017


December 16, 2017
December 17, 2017

Deer Muzzleloader
January 6, 2018
January 9, 2018

Seedoc,
Really are you kidding us, if you hunt then you would know that the additional deer tags have been reduced drastically to accommodate the decline in deer population in a lot of areas. we have slammed the MNRF for not doing a great job on the moose population but they seem to have somewhat of a handle on the deer herd in Ontario

I hunt 87 and the deer there are as healthy and numerous as I have ever seen them in 20 years of hunting. A fellow I spoke with at the MNR says the enforcement guys keep telling the biologists that the tags need to go back up. IMO only, I would like to see a consistent 1 archery additional and your main tag that you can fill in controlled, muzzle loader etc. At one point we could get 3 additional controlled tags and an additional archery in the same WMU. But I agree that the purpose was to reduce numbers and it worked. And I have seen lots of road kill already this year, and it is not even full rut yet. I think it varies area to area, but around Kitchener and Brantford, the deer population is very healthy.

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Originally Posted by KennyT

I hunt 87 and the deer there are as healthy and numerous as I have ever seen them in 20 years of hunting. A fellow I spoke with at the MNR says the enforcement guys keep telling the biologists that the tags need to go back up. IMO only, I would like to see a consistent 1 archery additional and your main tag that you can fill in controlled, muzzle loader etc. At one point we could get 3 additional controlled tags and an additional archery in the same WMU. But I agree that the purpose was to reduce numbers and it worked. And I have seen lots of road kill already this year, and it is not even full rut yet. I think it varies area to area, but around Kitchener and Brantford, the deer population is very healthy.

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The deer population around Kitchener is way down from what it was at its peak around 2004, the population down around Stratford is also down. Not that the number are not healthy, but they are no where near the peak. Farmers though are also not seeing the losses that they used to have and car/deer accidents are a heck of a lot lower now. There may be pockets where the numbers are really high like you said, but that is probably a sanctuary, which are areas that are on the rise due to the population explosion that is continuing.

I remember hunting in 1999 down there, I watched the numbers rise and just after I moved east for school in 2003 that there were 2 really rough winters and destroyed the population, the additional tags and antlerless tags were 1 or 2 years too late to be reduced and the numbers are only now starting to really come back.

Remember when we had 1 seal for a deer in the province and outside of SW Ontario only had a 25% chance at an antlerless validation? I do.

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Remember when we had 1 seal for a deer in the province and outside of SW Ontario only had a 25% chance at an antlerless validation? I do.

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That was the normal. We all got spoiled with the population booms but now we're back to what some of us can remember and many don't.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Remember when we had 1 seal for a deer in the province and outside of SW Ontario only had a 25% chance at an antlerless validation? I do.

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Remember ? ...heck it seems like just last year..wait it's has been that way for the past 6-7 yrs ...Haha

(we have 6 guys at camp and average 2 doe tags a year..so 30%)

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Originally Posted by Articcat

Seedoc,
Really are you kidding us, if you hunt then you would know that the additional deer tags have been reduced drastically to accommodate the decline in deer population in a lot of areas. we have slammed the MNRF for not doing a great job on the moose population but they seem to have somewhat of a handle on the deer herd in Ontario

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I hunt 83A. Deer numbers are down despite the limited doe tag draw. I agree that populations can vary for different WMUs . My point is: does the extended season, particularly a special season for muzzleloaders contribute to a lower population?

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Originally Posted by seedoc

I hunt 83A. Deer numbers are down despite the limited doe tag draw. I agree that populations can vary for different WMUs . My point is: does the extended season, particularly a special season for muzzleloaders contribute to a lower population?

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Well, if 3 deer are shot one year and 4 deer are shot the next after an extended season then yes there is a contribution to a lower population. The thing you have to remember though is that it is a lot more complicated than that. In many cases the muzzle loader hunt actually removes hunt days for many hunters, the muzzle loader hunt still allows bows but those hunters need to wear orange and tend not to hunt, so the large number of bow hunters are now removed from the field for that week while the very few muzzle loader hunters are in place, their ability to take a longer shot than a bow is a fact but you still have to be there when that deer comes by, due to this I would say that the extended muzzle loader hunt reduces the take of deer by hunters in Ontario.

You also have to look at what deer are being shot, bucks have minimal impact on the population as you only need 1 buck for a large number of does. You take 1 doe out of the population and you have killed off generations (why the moose hunt is a joke). The reduction in the doe tag allocation though is always done when the population has already dropped, so it takes a few years for the bounce back, assuming good conditions for producing and raising offspring.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

I’ll grab the popcorn !!

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yup make some for me to...

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Originally Posted by seedoc

Don't be a s spectator join the discussion

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your the only hunter I have seen talk about limiting deer more then it already is....I agree with all the posts that came after post #1. Sorry but limiting hunting season is a rediculous idea no matter how you look at it...1 tag is 1 tag is 1 tag....Plenty of deer everywhere you just gotta get out more!

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Originally Posted by seedoc

My point is: does the extended season, particularly a special season for muzzleloaders contribute to a lower population?

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NO it doesn't..

The basic concept ; the MNR allows everyone who wants one gets 1 Buck tag…knowing that the success rate for hunters at actually culling deer numbers over the entire season is about 25%. That’s is sufficient in many WMU’s to control the deer population annaully, especially when the allocation of antlerless tags is controlled and a percentage of deer taken are Does.

So with my 1 tag, I can either Bow hunt, Rifle or ML…one deer, my choice when to use it and by whatever means I prefer to hunt.

How in the world did you derive the notion that any one season has more of an impact on the deer population than another ?

The extended seasons were introduced to allow hunters to enjoy a separate season for sports like Archery and Black Powder. They do not increase the overall cull of the deer population, that is done thru the sale of additional tags in WMUs where it’s need.

If they issued specific tags for bow or ML. then yes, there would be more deer harvested..but that system doesn’t exist here in Ont.

Then ask yourself the more pressing question; why in Gods name do we have hunters like you suggesting that we limit hunting opportunities for other hunters ?

well said Mike ^^^

[QUOTE=MikePal;10414

Then ask yourself the more pressing question; why in Gods name do we have hunters like you suggesting that we limit hunting opportunities for other hunters ?[/QUOTE]

Mike,
Thanks for your answer. You make some good points. Too bad you ended with a personal insult.

Seedoc he asked a pertinent question that others have expressed agreement with already. If you choose to take it as an insult that's your problem.
The bottom line is that everyone can purchase one tag, at least around here anyway. Whether they choose to try and fill it in archery, rifle or ML season makes no difference at all in the overall population count. So to answer your original question I would say no. Archery season has always been three months, rifle two weeks around here. The only addition is the black powder season, which isn't an extra tag so I don't see how anyone could call it the cause of over harvest.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by seedoc

Mike,
Thanks for your answer. You make some good points. Too bad you ended with a personal insult.

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You asked a question and got the same response from everyone. I think the answer is clear whether you accept it or not...time to move on!

Ticks with lime disease, and Giardia along with many other reasons can be to blame for falling numbers in some areas. Coyotes numbers are high in many areas. The MNR control the tags so they are the one who make the decisions.

Put out a truck load of carrots and see if there is a shortage. We have pictures of 5 nice bucks 8 plus point chowing away. Shooting them is a different story. You might be surprised whats out there...not seeing them or seeing them during legal shooting could be many factors but no question there there lol

I disagree with most of the posts and for many wmus, imo, the original poster is correct in his assumption. Ive seen the provincial harvest data (provincial mail in survey). Late season ml hunts significantly increase overall harvest percentage (hunter success). Based on the data, some units had 60% more harvest when the late season 'll hunt was added. Being able to harvest any sex also compounded the effect when doe harvest increased. Classic examples are wmus 75 and 60. They got pounded when the late ml season with any sex was available. So easy to get your deer when they werer all concentrated and in the winter yards. I love to eat venison, but I'm happy that the late season 'll opportunities got cut back in both of these units.

Would love to see wmu 94 controlled hunt expanded to all of 94 with the same # of tags issued. Unfortunately in the early days a few misinformed people fought to keep the hunt out of their hunting grounds. The squeaky wheel got greased and only 1/3 of 94 gets the annual poundING by the orange army.
Anyhow... I'd love to see some cut backs in the controlled hunts.

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

Ive seen the provincial harvest data (provincial mail in survey). Late season ml hunts significantly increase overall harvest percentage (hunter success). Based on the data, some units had 60% more harvest when the late season 'll hunt was added.

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There is no way to know how many deer are harvested in Ont because there is no mandatory reporting and because the number of completed 'Harvest Returns' is so dismal...in a lot of WMU's it's less than 10%, so the data is irrelevant.

So when saying there is a 60 %" increase, that could simple mean it went for 10 guys reporting to 16 guys reporting from one year to the next.

More hunters being successful, because of the extra time in the field in a WMU, doesn't necessarily have a detrimental effect on the overall population of deer. As was pointed out, the overall success rate in most MWU falls well short of the numbers required to maintain the desired population. Additional seasons, additional tags etc are ways the MNR try to increase the overall success rate of the annual cull.

While an extra week of hunting will indubitably result in a more deer being shot, it in no way would it be in numbers that would effectively reducing the numbers to a point were there "are no deer"'... There aren't that many ML hunters out the there.

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There aren't that many ML hunters out the there.

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by Mike Pal

Are you forgetting that in mos t WMU's , shotguns are also allowed during the late controlled hunt.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

by Mike Pal

Are you forgetting that in mos t WMU's , shotguns are also allowed during the late controlled hunt.

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Buddy is complaining about the ML (specifically) extended season...first week of Dec....he's convinced that a handful of guys who choose to fill their 1 tag that week are devastating the Deer numbers in his WMU...I ...and everyone else...say 'poppycock'

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Buddy is complaining about the ML (specifically) extended season...first week of Dec....he's convinced that a handful of guys who choose to fill their 1 tag that week are devastating the Deer numbers in his WMU...I ...and everyone else...say 'poppycock'

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I am hunting during the first week of Dec. with a muzzle loader, and shotguns are also allowed during that hunt, as they are in many other WMU's.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

I am hunting during the first week of Dec. with a muzzle loader, and shotguns are also allowed during that hunt, as they are in many other WMU's.

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I honestly never saw that before, first time I've heard of it. I see in the regs it's only in a small geographical area, however largely populated (developed), so the MNR obviously wants to keep the population in check to avoid the increased risk of deer/human conflicts, so as said early, they've added tools to increase the number of deer culled annually.

I must say, this is an interesting thread! Living and hunting up here in WMU 36, I admit I haven't followed the various configurations of the annual deer hunt throughout the province. We have a bow season and a rifle season. One hunter, one deer, by whichever method you choose? There is no controlled hunt and, much to my disappointment, no ML season.
So Rick, mind if I grab a handful of your popcorn?

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Originally Posted by seedoc

Many deer hunter friends report a decline in deer numbers in recent years in southern ON. Personally I notice less road kills and sightings throughout the year.
Although there are various reasons for deer population declines, I suspect that the extended season is partially responsible. With the addition of lengthy bow and black powder seasons hunters have more than 2 months to fill tags. IMO there is really no difference in the killing effectiveness of a scoped black powder gun and a rifle if you are selective in your shot. Do we require an additional gun season? Furthermore, cross bows are more accurate and lethal than ever. We're not hunting prairie deer!
Any comments?

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I would like to think that the mnrf control the population by the distribution of doe tags as that is the most common way of managing the population. How you fill your tag shouldn't be an issue.

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

I must say, this is an interesting thread! Living and hunting up here in WMU 36, I admit I haven't followed the various configurations of the annual deer hunt throughout the province. We have a bow season and a rifle season. One hunter, one deer, by whichever method you choose? There is no controlled hunt and, much to my disappointment, no ML season.
So Rick, mind if I grab a handful of your popcorn?

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Hahaha....no problem! I find it interesting down here in the southwest, the MNR has cut doe tags, and gotten rid of excess tags for archery, but they have two FN hunts/culls in Rondeau park and Clear Creek Reserve ????
Both are wintering areas, with no limits on the number of deer taken.....go figure!!

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

, but they have two FN hunts/culls in Rondeau park and Clear Creek Reserve ????
Both are wintering areas, with no limits on the number of deer taken.....go figure!!

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Because treaty rights and that being their land, deer culls are done by them.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Because treaty rights and that being their land, deer culls are done by them.

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Yea, yea, I’m aware of that BS. The MNRF touted the culls as necessary to cut deer numbers, citing damage to the Carolinian forest......but they still cut tags for the “regulated” hunters..

I spend lots of time in wmu 47 & 87D. And I'm seeing lots of deer. I wouldn't say there is a decline. If deer are being pressured in a certain area by predators or human they move. We had a den of yote pups at the back of are farm this year. We had lots of deer moving through the farm from spring till September. Now that those little buggers are not so little and they are hanging around in the open with mom and Dad. We haven't seen deer in a few months. I'm just waiting for the over time to end at work and then I will bust out the 22/250 and have some fun



Dustin

I disagree, I've seen more deer this year while spending less time hunting than the previous 2 years. As for the extended season, maybe you have all the time in the world to hunt early on or later on, but a lot of us don't. I need the extra time to hunt, i have a busy life, i get out when i can but sometimes its not for a week or more. I don't have a hunt camp that I can go to for a week and be guaranteed to fill my tag like a lot of guys. As far as im concerned archery is fuggin hard, gimme a gun and I can be done hunting in a couple days, but with a bow you're very limited to the shots you can take. Which means I need all the time I can get. Like somebody else mentioned, I highly doubt we could hunt deer in SW Ontario into extinction if we wanted to. There's a lot more of them than us lol. But I'd happily try if I could.

OMNRF is purposely trying to lower the deer herd in the NW, reason for so many excess antlerless tags. Less deer, more moose (Brain Worm). Still a healthy population of deer here in area #8. Not so in wmu #5 but lots of wolves in wmu #5.

I hear the same whining every year: "there's no more deer". I hear it from guys who hunt the same stands, day after day after day, year in year out, regardless of the wind. I hear it from the guys who have done drives through the same bushes and fields down in Lanark and shot everything that moved for years and years.

I just agree with them...it's easier that way.

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Originally Posted by Bigbear

I hear the same whining every year: "there's no more deer". I hear it from guys who hunt the same stands, day after day after day, year in year out, regardless of the wind. I hear it from the guys who have done drives through the same bushes and fields down in Lanark and shot everything that moved for years and years.

I just agree with them...it's easier that way.

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Thank you!! I hear the older guys get all fired up when they get skunked for years at a time, but don't understand how I fill my tag pretty much every year. I tell them and they know o put in time, cameras, walk endless kms, crappy thick bush and lots of bugs at times to find out where and what's going on. I think there are lots of deer but deer aren't stupid. If they know they are being hunted they aren't going to stay anywhere near there. That's why they have survived as a species for ever! Put in the time and put some kms on those boots and put the puzzle pieces together. You'll end up changing your opinion on deer numbers very quick.

I think deer numbers are down in my area.but in the first hunt I could not believe there were so few guys out hunting. Between tillsonburg and Woodstock I travel everyday.and I can count in both hands how many guys i seen out in oarange.as far as wiping out the deer in ontario .never going to happen there are so many deer in town cemeteries golf clubs and Parks it's crazy

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Originally Posted by marky.mark

Thank you!! I hear the older guys get all fired up when they get skunked for years at a time, but don't understand how I fill my tag pretty much every year. I tell them and they know o put in time, cameras, walk endless kms, crappy thick bush and lots of bugs at times to find out where and what's going on. I think there are lots of deer but deer aren't stupid. If they know they are being hunted they aren't going to stay anywhere near there. That's why they have survived as a species for ever! Put in the time and put some kms on those boots and put the puzzle pieces together. You'll end up changing your opinion on deer numbers very quick.

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Pretty much it. And I don't spend much time on cameras and pre-season scouting. Things boil down to a few very simple formulas:

Sustenance + safety = does
Does = Bucks
Too much noise/stink in the bush = none of the above.

We are going to find out how many deer are around next week
We will be partaking in are yearly controlled hunt. 10 to 20 guys with shotguns and lots of great farms to run..sure find how how many deer are around in a hurry.

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Originally Posted by dutchhunter

We are going to find out how many deer are around next week
We will be partaking in are yearly controlled hunt. 10 to 20 guys with shotguns and lots of great farms to run..sure find how how many deer are around in a hurry.

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Good luck next week.

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There could be other factors too. Like honestly, how many people run trail cameras to judge the deer herds health in that area? compare that to guys just showing up the day of the opener and shooting the first four legged animal that walks out. How many properly manage the land they are on? and with the warmer falls we've had. I bet most of the deer are still nocternal and the rut is later in the season when less hunters are out. The last couple harsh winters also played a roll