How Well Do You Know Your Sport?

I have shared this topic with many and the end result is often nothing more than a shrug of the shoulders. I find it interesting that most of us would prefer that our "Nanny State" rules and regs stay out of our personal lives. Let's hold that thought.
I personally see many folk in late model super trucks with just about all the off-road accessories, decked to the nines with all the hunting specific add-ons you can get. They pull up dressed in Orvis, Filson, Russel, Barbour, etc., all the latest/greatest techno-gear, well-bred and trained bird dogs, etc. Their past is a rich recollection of hunts - both local and well-travelled - many years of hunts. Some of us fall somewhere in between Gentleman Jack but we all have our comparable set-up.
Do we know our game? It would appear that we do! We can tell what to do in windy situations, what to do in rainy situations, the subtleties of when/where/how to approach variances of the preferred species, why our dog is the best in said applications AND in detail, I might add. But do we really know our sport? Reading all-of-the-above your answer should be an unequivocal, "Yes!"
OK, so if that's the case, why did so many still harvest SK Huns when the bird numbers were horrifically down? Why did we harvest grouse locally when the bird numbers were horrifically low? I recently completed quail hunting down south and the numbers are very low. I asked in advance if the rumours were true so that I could defer my arrangements but was told it wasn't really true. I came back and although we found birds, the numbers were VERY low. It's not a good feeling for me. Why? Because deep down, I knew they were low but I still went!
Let me take you back now to the title of this post. How well do we know our sport? The content here-in would lead you to believe that those of us (myself included) profess to be knowledgeable. We - most of us - agree that we'd prefer that gov. not intervene into our lives so much as in the ministry dictating seasons and limits. Yet, we are quick to say, "Well....there is still a season and the limits are still _ _ , so why is that my fault?"
I reiterate, we really know our sport. We don't want to be burdened by rules/regs. Still, we somehow don't know enough to back off when laboring species need a break. .....seems contradictory to me.
It doesn't mean we can't hunt. It doesn't mean we can't work dogs. It means taking of labouring species needs to be OUR responsibility. After all, who stands to lose the most?

Same old same old...just take a look back thru the Moose hunting threads and see how many guys still shoot calfs...because the can...

The phrase I use most often when it comes to Grouse & Woodcock is, "If I shoot it the next dog can't point it. So carry a blank pistol."

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Originally Posted by Tim Tufts

The phrase I use most often when it comes to Grouse & Woodcock is, "If I shoot it the next dog can't point it. So carry a blank pistol."

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That's a good one, I'll have to remember it.:goodstuff:
BTW, do you remember Tony B ? he used to run his Springers at your place quite a few years ago, we were discussing you over a few "Single malts " when he was over this past weekend .

Well said Ugo. I can't shoot anymore , but hasn't hurt one bit my enjoyment of getting out and watching the dog work on birds. It sure is not all about shooting.


(Also would like to see the rabbit season moved from the end of Feb to the end of Jan. With our generally mild winters, rabbits are often (usually?) pregnant in Feb. Might make a difference in how many rabbits we see.)

Ugo, stay out of my head! Just last week I was reflecting on our deer camp up north, where the deer numbers have been dramatically down for the last four or so years. I've written letters and stood up at meetings to openly criticize the MNRF for issuing us all more doe tags than we could possibly know what to do with. Its like the MNRF staff somehow didn't notice those bad winters we had. Yet this past fall I shot a doe.

There was a long period in my 20s and 30s when I wouldn't shoot woodcock. They were struggling, and still are. But nowadays come October I pursue them eagerly, because I've read (or maybe selectively read) that whether I shoot them or not will have no bearing on their population or its trends. Some of us fret about such things, yet we don't exercise self-restraint and rationalize it because we are still playing by the official rules. So why do we feel twinges of regret, like some weird Catholic guilt complex?

These days, more than I can remember in my 30 years of hunting, I hear hunters speak of self-regulation (especially grouse, moose, deer) because we are losing confidence in our management agencies to do their jobs. They seem so out of touch with what we see in the field and fail to intervene. At other times those same agencies, working equally blind, make far-reaching but unjustified decisions. One needs look no further than Ontario's very own unicorn, the Algonquin Wolf.

Well said Ugo. I would only like to add that it is probably impossible to change the basic nature of men. On numerous occasions I found it difficult to comprehend why do guys strive to "limit out", no matter what it takes. We don't want to start a debate on "perfect head shots" or "I drove so far" but all the ethics people love to talk about go out the window immediately after the opportunity to pull the trigger presents itself. Of course this would not be complete without spent hulls in the grass that will remain there for the next hundred years. We hunt the prairies out west every year and anybody who has been there will agree that there is no need to abuse the bird population by pounding the same areas day after day. Yet, every year I look into puzzled faces of people not willing to understand that you have to leave stock behind. There is lots,is the common reply,why go somewhere else. So back to the basic nature of men. Is it greed? Or maybe competitiveness? Either or, it's bad news for the future of hunting.

I hunt Grouse in 4-5 different areas within a 40 minute drive of my front door. This year my dogs found 84 birds. I only shot 10 of those. I missed a few, but a majority I let fly away (just ended up popping a shot off over head to complete the whole process for the sake of the dogs) primarily because, once I had shot 2-3 birds in a particular area, I stopped shooting them (after all, I want there to continue to be a good population of birds fairly close to home and if I shot every bird my dogs pointed, we'd empty out an area in no time). Sometimes I would also let them fly off when the dogs did not perform as they were supposed to on that particular bird (I take greater enjoyment in watching the dogs work then anything else). It makes me angry when I see/hear about these guys who go out on their ATVs and shoot every bird they come across sitting on the road, just so they can limit out with no mind to conservation.

It would appear that I am not alone in my self-incrimination. I am still in transition but migrating with increasing momentum towards Tim's comment. Actually, Tim made this statement to me a LONG time ago. I just didn't see the diminishing light at the end of the tunnel. That's 2-for-2 Tim. You were right about setters and bird numbers - both comments made well over 15 years ago! Can I borrow your crystal ball please, or perhaps just your glasses.

I do have a spare pair of glasses Ugo but the ball part has me worried. :-)

Interesting thread, I have been chasing birds with a gun in my hand for 50 years now and my approach has certainly changed but I feel it has more to do with my stage in life rather than the times we live in. I worked in the outdoor industry all of my career and keenly observed trends and what was going on.

What I learned applies to almost all outdoor pursuits from big game hunting to fishing (and maybe more in life).

Stage 1 - We are introduced to the sport, most often by family but it can be friends. During this stage it is mostly about the relationship with the people you are enjoying it with. I am sure most on here have happy memories of fishing with a father or grandfather. You probably hardly remember what you caught but you were happy they wanted to spend time with you.

Stage 2 - If the pursuit catches on with you, you try and get better. You seek to learn how to have success on your own. You read some magazines, go to the sportsman's show and start to buy your own equipment.

Stage 3 - It becomes all about the numbers. You just want to catch fish, shoot birds, whatever. Numbers is way more important than quality. You need to practice what you have recently learned and improve your technique.

Stage 4 - You become competitive. You want to test your newfound skills against others to prove to them and yourselves how "good' you are and demonstrate to others how you have mastered this game which has become so important to you.

Stage 5- You move beyond competition and on to quality. You move to things like fly fishing, only pursuing trophy muskie, only shooting 200+ deer, only shooting over point whatever you define to yourself as "quality".

Stage 6 - You become more reflective and the harvest becomes much less the focus than the experience. Your memory bank is full of great days, full limits and trophies. You no longer need to prove yourself. You no longer need to fill the bag to have a great day. You just want to be out, participate and reconnect with the sport that has brought you so much joy. In this stage you can happily woodcock hunt with a blank pistol, sit in a duck blind just to watch birds come in or watch trout rise in a stream.

The problem is something like the "Stages of Grief" many are familiar with, is there is no way 90% of people ever get to Stage 6 without going through all the others. I clearly remember how frustrated I was hunting with my father and a couple of his old buddies in the last few years of his life. They were all clearly in Stage 6 while I was still in 3 or 4 and wanted to see results. They were content to shuffle along, puff their pipes and tell stories about the old days.

With this in mind I am very supportive about practicing restraint however I think we need to be careful about not being to "preachy" about it. If the sport and the resource is going to survive we need young people getting involved and we can't expect them to jump in at stage 6. They will need to go through the process.

One of my greatest passions is waterfowl hunting. Yet almost any TV show about it makes my skin crawl with loud tattooed young studs who only shoot fields, call to much, High 5 and whoop it up over ever dead bird and stack them like cordwood in the back of a pick-up. It makes me want to puke. On the other hand I remind myself It is much better for waterfowl that they are at least interested and.... they will grow out of it.

Well written. Should be published and become required reading for all of us in and interested in the sports.

Hey that's a great write Singlemalt, start to finish.

I have to admit that my 'skin crawls' as well watching any of the current waterfowling videos if that's what you can call them. For me the biggest issue is seeing dogs in motion. People shooting, birds falling and retrievers already moving......a sad situation. These folks have no idea what a non slip retriever looks like and by condoning this demonstrate a total ignorance of dog training and a total lack of observing some rudiments of dog safety. Sadly they don't know that they don't know!

I can tell you when my dog is retrieving the shooting is done.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Hey that's a great write Singlemalt, start to finish.

I have to admit that my 'skin crawls' as well watching any of the current waterfowling videos if that's what you can call them. For me the biggest issue is seeing dogs in motion. People shooting, birds falling and retrievers already moving......a sad situation. These folks have no idea what a non slip retriever looks like and by condoning this demonstrate a total ignorance of dog training and a total lack of observing some rudiments of dog safety. Sadly they don't know that they don't know!

I can tell you when my dog is retrieving the shooting is done.

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My thinking and training as well. I shoot a lot of open water divers and a dog half way out to a strong swimming cripple before he is sent usually results in a lost bird. By the time you can reload he has chased the bird out of the decoys and is too close to the duck to shoot it again. He will chase it diving for a couple of hundred yards until he loses it or gives up. Once in a while they get lucky and catch them but in deep water, big waves and strong cripple 80% of the time it ends up a lost bird.

With a steady dog, after the shots, I can stand on the boat seat assess the situation and if it needs it shoot the bird again before I send the dog.... 80% of the time a bird in hand.

Such an excellent first post singlematt! I was thinking about that when I read Ugo's first post. I'm at stage 6 but few people still can understand why I enjoy getting out on birds with the setter when I can't shoot anymore.

Good for you Sharon, I completely understand. What I think is interesting about my observation on the Stages we go through is how much it has to do with “context”. If I honestly appraise myself I believe I have achieved Level 6 in Fishing, Upland and Waterfowl. However I am maybe a 5 on Turkey and way back at a 2 or 3 on Big Game. Even though I have hunted deer for over 40 years it has never really engaged me like bird hunting so I am all about filling the freezer and “if it’s brown it’s down”, so I can get back to the marsh or lake.

I'm enlightened by what I've been reading in this tread ! Back in October of 2016 I commented on a Vermillion Bay grouse hunt tread about a hunting party killing 84 grouse in four days and half the members in this community jumped down my throat. Are times a changing ?

Don't think it was the message but the medium. One thing to be self reflective another to be preachy and condescending.

Great post singlemalt and should be published in an outdoor magazine ! Personally I enjoy the dog training owner handler relationship in the field. Filling a bird quota has never been my thing and have passed that onto my children while hunting with them over the years. I get so excited watching my dogs work in the field knowing that I participated in their training using humane methods. I watch very few hunting tv shows for that same reason or Youtube videos piling up the ducks or geese on the back of the tailgate. Nothing better than sitting in a duck blind with a cup of coffee at Rondeau Bay with my lab watching the ducks fly by. If I miss a shot, oh well ....more will follow.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

Great post singlemalt and should be published in an outdoor magazine !

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Yes, could be subconsciously based on the much used "stages of hunter development" in hunter education courses?


https://tpwd.texas.gov/education/hun...ing/six-stages

https://1source.basspro.com/index.ph...ch-one-are-you

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Originally Posted by be2man

Yes, could be subconsciously based on the much used "stages of hunter development" in hunter education courses?


https://tpwd.texas.gov/education/hun...ing/six-stages

https://1source.basspro.com/index.ph...ch-one-are-you

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Yes interesting not exactly the same but similar. I make no claim to complete originality. We all stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before us. I don't think I have seen these before but the root of mine was something I read years ago about the stages an angler goes through. I reflected on it and thought it could apply to hunting as well.

I thought they WERE part of the Hunters Course..I remember they showed us them on the OHP (over head projector for the youngeons..:) )

It's fun to watch the hunters at the camp in the various stages.....in the Older guys you can see them go thru the stages from the beginning of the week till the end of the week..a little slower getting at it each day :)

I'm one of the older guys now. I'm perfectly happy to take a morning or two off at deer camp and no longer hunt in pouring rain. Perfectly ok with letting s doe walk away to help build up the herd. I prefer watching the dogs pin a bird than clean one. Don't get me wrong, I fully intend on shooting game when I hunt but really don't care if I don't.

I like this thread. Every time I read something like this I always think of those who took me under their wing and taught me so much of what I know today. I've convinced some die hard deer hunters to try bird hunting. Now these friends are buying puppies and training with me. Circle of life I guess...

I cannot lie. I did post this to see the ensuing responses. If reread, you will see that I included myself in the initial post. You might call it self-incriminating?
Whether philosophic, informative, entertaining, educational or condescending might have more to do with the recipient than the originator. It reminds me a bit of the young lad secretly munching away when his father walks into his room. Before questioned the young lad blurts out, "I'm not eating another cookie Daddy!"
Singlemalt, I would be in the latter stages for sure yet vividly recall those preceding stages as well. ...well written Sir.

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Originally Posted by sidelock

I'm enlightened by what I've been reading in this tread ! Back in October of 2016 I commented on a Vermillion Bay grouse hunt tread about a hunting party killing 84 grouse in four days and half the members in this community jumped down my throat. Are times a changing ?

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Revising history is never wise.