Handgun hunting for small game

Latest edition of Ontario Out of Door, August 2018, Pg 22 Ask a C.O. According to the Provincial Enforcement Specialist for the MNRF, David Critchlow. Antique handguns manufactured before 1898 that do not use metallic rim-fire and centre-fire cartridge, and have not been converted to do so can be used to take small game. Good news for black-powder burners. What hasn't been clarified is whether modern renditions of these firearm will qualify. Could this be the hole in the dike, that those who interested in using modern handguns to hunt with have been looking for? After all a handgun is a handgun whether it is sparked by a primer or a percussion cap.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

Latest edition of Ontario Out of Door, August 2018, Pg 22 Ask a C.O. According to the Provincial Enforcement Specialist for the MNRF, David Critchlow. Antique handguns manufactured before 1898 that do not use metallic rim-fire and centre-fire cartridge, and have not been converted to do so can be used to take small game. Good news for black-powder burners. What hasn't been clarified is whether modern renditions of these firearm will qualify. Could this be the hole in the dike, that those who interested in using modern handguns to hunt with have been looking for? After all a handgun is a handgun whether it is sparked by a primer or a percussion cap.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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It isn't the provincial FWCA which prevents hunters from using handguns but the federal firearms act. Since firearms prior to 1898 are considered antique firearms, they aren't subject to license requirements of the Firearms Act.

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

Latest edition of Ontario Out of Door, August 2018, Pg 22 Ask a C.O. According to the Provincial Enforcement Specialist for the MNRF, David Critchlow. Antique handguns manufactured before 1898 that do not use metallic rim-fire and centre-fire cartridge, and have not been converted to do so can be used to take small game. Good news for black-powder burners. What hasn't been clarified is whether modern renditions of these firearm will qualify. Could this be the hole in the dike, that those who interested in using modern handguns to hunt with have been looking for? After all a handgun is a handgun whether it is sparked by a primer or a percussion cap.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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David Critchlow does not know what the firearms laws are.

To hunt small game in Ontario you cannot use a restricted or prohibited firearm. An antique status firearm in Canada is not prohibited nor restricted but they are expensive, an antique status webley often runs close to if not more than $3000, some are cheaper but many are very costly.

On top of that you have to assume that a LEO knows the laws, just because the RCMP says they are legal does not mean they will not be taken away from you and have you fight to prove what they are.

As you can see from the link below you can use any rimfire handgun made before 1898 (proven not a guess) that does not shoot 22 short, 22 long or 22 long rifle, so a 38 rimfire pistol made before 1898 would be an antique and therefore not a prohibited or restricted and legal for hunting small game in Ontario. For centerfire you cannot use one that is chambered in .32 Short Colt, .32 Long Colt, .32 Smith and Wesson, .32 Smith and Wesson Long, .32‑20 Winchester, .38 Smith and Wesson; .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38-40 Winchester, .44‑40 Winchester, or .45 Colt cartridges. So, unlike what David states there are many cartridge handguns that are antiques. As for black powder, as you can see again in the link, no modern muzzle loading handguns are antique status, long guns of flintlock, wheel-lock or matchlock firearms ignition follow the same rules but a handgun must be made before 1898.

Follow the link below for a definition.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...orique-eng.htm

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

It isn't the provincial FWCA which prevents hunters from using handguns but the federal firearms act. Since firearms prior to 1898 are considered antique firearms, they aren't subject to license requirements of the Firearms Act.

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There used to be a section in the regulations that stated that you could not use a pistol or revolver, I know I know, a revolver is a pistol, but this was dropped as it would have been a blanket to remove the use or air pistols under 500fps from being used for hunting small game in Ontario, something that has been done for a long time.

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Originally Posted by Fox

There used to be a section in the regulations that stated that you could not use a pistol or revolver, I know I know, a revolver is a pistol, but this was dropped as it would have been a blanket to remove the use or air pistols under 500fps from being used for hunting small game in Ontario, something that has been done for a long time.

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There may have been a section as you say but the current FWCA doesn't say you can't use a handgun for small game (to my knowledge, and I looked). The only restriction I can find which prevents hunters from using handguns is under federal law because of the transport and use restrictions for restricted firearms, which most modern hanguns fall under, not because it is related to the FWCA. As you said, this condition is to accommodate air pistol hunters.

The section you are referring to, I am not sure when it was in the FWCA because you used to be able to use handguns to hunt in Ontario back in the 50's and 60's (I believe). I think I remember Jaycee stating that fact. Perhaps some of the posters of that generation could confirm this.

Dyth

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

There may have been a section as you say but the current FWCA doesn't say you can't use a handgun for small game (to my knowledge, and I looked). The only restriction I can find which prevents hunters from using handguns is under federal law because of the transport and use restrictions for restricted firearms, which most modern hanguns fall under, not because it is related to the FWCA. As you said, this condition is to accommodate air pistol hunters.

The section you are referring to, I am not sure when it was in the FWCA because you used to be able to use handguns to hunt in Ontario back in the 50's and 60's (I believe). I think I remember Jaycee stating that fact. Perhaps some of the posters of that generation could confirm this.

Dyth

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When Kelso Roberts, a P.C . was attorney gen. also a handgunner member of the Toronto Club, he granted all handgunners in Ontario who were members in good standing in their club, had a permit to carry and a valid hunting license, "the Privilege to Hunt with a handgun."

Back then, 2 moose and 3 deer had fallen to my 44 mag. revolver, It was quite the experience , I also used to hunt ground hogs with it , and have shot a few sitting jacks with my .357 S& W . Wish those days could be brought back.

I think there are a couple of other members here on this forum that remember fondly those days.

it would be awesome to be able to hunt small game with a .22 revolver!

Not going to happen with a Liberal government...Stupid law anyways, its permitted in Michigan, so if I want to hunt with a handgun Ill just go line their pockets instead of our government...I know a couple hunters who carry a .22 pistol with them while hunting incase they need to dispatch an animal they shot and are just trying to end it quicker instead of letting it bleed out in agony or they see a grouse that looks like dinner. Some I know carry a .44mag for moose and bear for self protection and for that I dont blame them. To each their own, I wouldnt risk it but I know some who could care less what their bull shyte government says you can and cant do. Its definately not unethical or immoral in my opinion I just like to follow the rules as principle. Without standards you get a bunch of John Waynes and thats never a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Fox

David Critchlow does not know what the firearms laws are.

To hunt small game in Ontario you cannot use a restricted or prohibited firearm. An antique status firearm in Canada is not prohibited nor restricted but they are expensive, an antique status webley often runs close to if not more than $3000, some are cheaper but many are very costly.

On top of that you have to assume that a LEO knows the laws, just because the RCMP says they are legal does not mean they will not be taken away from you and have you fight to prove what they are.

As you can see from the link below you can use any rimfire handgun made before 1898 (proven not a guess) that does not shoot 22 short, 22 long or 22 long rifle, so a 38 rimfire pistol made before 1898 would be an antique and therefore not a prohibited or restricted and legal for hunting small game in Ontario. For centerfire you cannot use one that is chambered in .32 Short Colt, .32 Long Colt, .32 Smith and Wesson, .32 Smith and Wesson Long, .32‑20 Winchester, .38 Smith and Wesson; .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38-40 Winchester, .44‑40 Winchester, or .45 Colt cartridges. So, unlike what David states there are many cartridge handguns that are antiques. As for black powder, as you can see again in the link, no modern muzzle loading handguns are antique status, long guns of flintlock, wheel-lock or matchlock firearms ignition follow the same rules but a handgun must be made before 1898.

Follow the link below for a definition.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...orique-eng.htm

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[COLOR=#000000]"To hunt small game in Ontario you cannot use a restricted or prohibited firearm." Is there a piece of reference material anywhere that clearly state this, either in the regulations or the Wildlife Fish and Game Act.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
-Gun Nut

Not to take away from the original post.
I carry a 44 mag while Bear and Moose hunting.
Its a Mares leg so that keeps me legal for carrying it.
Small enough and fits into a sheath over my shoulder.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

When Kelso Roberts, a P.C . was attorney gen. also a handgunner member of the Toronto Club, he granted all handgunners in Ontario who were members in good standing in their club, had a permit to carry and a valid hunting license, "the Privilege to Hunt with a handgun."

Back then, 2 moose and 3 deer had fallen to my 44 mag. revolver, It was quite the experience , I also used to hunt ground hogs with it , and have shot a few sitting jacks with my .357 S& W . Wish those days could be brought back.

I think there are a couple of other members here on this forum that remember fondly those days.

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That is really neat that you have that experience.

Treasure it!!!!

s. 17 of the Firearms Act:

Subject to sections 19 and 20, a prohibited firearm or restricted firearm, the holder of the registration certificate for which is an individual, may be possessed only at the dwelling-house of the individual, as recorded in the Canadian Firearms Registry, or at a place authorized by a chief firearms officer.

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Originally Posted by thunderbelly

s. 17 of the Firearms Act:

Subject to sections 19 and 20, a prohibited firearm or restricted firearm, the holder of the registration certificate for which is an individual, may be possessed only at the dwelling-house of the individual, as recorded in the Canadian Firearms Registry, or at a place authorized by a chief firearms officer.

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Does not include antiques.

no it doesn't, sorry, that was in response to gun nuts post.

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

[COLOR=#000000]"To hunt small game in Ontario you cannot use a restricted or prohibited firearm." Is there a piece of reference material anywhere that clearly state this, either in the regulations or the Wildlife Fish and Game Act.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
-Gun Nut

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Read page 23 of the 2018 Hunting Regulations Summary top of the page under General Regulations , first paragraph 3rd sentence !, the seventh eight and nineth words, it is in black and white .

Do you recall what year that ended? I have been trying to find that out. I suspect it probably ended in 1971 when the government brought in handgun registration and that is the year my father no longer was required to carry a sidearm at the bank or was that in 1973?

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Originally Posted by jaycee

When Kelso Roberts, a P.C . was attorney gen. also a handgunner member of the Toronto Club, he granted all handgunners in Ontario who were members in good standing in their club, had a permit to carry and a valid hunting license, "the Privilege to Hunt with a handgun."

Back then, 2 moose and 3 deer had fallen to my 44 mag. revolver, It was quite the experience , I also used to hunt ground hogs with it , and have shot a few sitting jacks with my .357 S& W . Wish those days could be brought back.

I think there are a couple of other members here on this forum that remember fondly those days.

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

There may have been a section as you say but the current FWCA doesn't say you can't use a handgun for small game (to my knowledge, and I looked). The only restriction I can find which prevents hunters from using handguns is under federal law because of the transport and use restrictions for restricted firearms, which most modern hanguns fall under, not because it is related to the FWCA. As you said, this condition is to accommodate air pistol hunters.

The section you are referring to, I am not sure when it was in the FWCA because you used to be able to use handguns to hunt in Ontario back in the 50's and 60's (I believe). I think I remember Jaycee stating that fact. Perhaps some of the posters of that generation could confirm this.

Dyth

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Yes, it used to be there but is not anymore.

It does state rifles, shotguns and muzzle loaders for big game but does not specify anything for handguns.

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Originally Posted by thunderbelly

it would be awesome to be able to hunt small game with a .22 revolver!

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There are lots of antiques that you could use that are antiques that would give you similar power to a 22LR and legal as they would be antiques, just expensive.

A 32 or 38 rimfire using adapter cases with cast bullets or small centerfire, there are dozens of different old cartridges from 25-44 caliber that nobody knows about, you essentially match the case to the cylinder and load that will black powder based on the weight of the bullet and the cartridge length, a really interesting science.

If you are on CGN take a look at the antiques section, really cool reading about the guys still running 120 year old and more pistols, not all revolvers either.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Read page 23 of the 2018 Hunting Regulations Summary top of the page under General Regulations , first paragraph 3rd sentence !, the seventh eight and nineth words, it is in black and white .

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Remember that the regulations summary is not the law, or the regulations.

I'm not sure if this is actually in the FWCA itself.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by welsh

Remember that the regulations summary is not the law, or the regulations.

I'm not sure if this is actually in the FWCA itself.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

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So what is written on page 23 of the General Regulation seems to imply that the game laws do not forbid the use of handguns for hunting. It is only their classification as restricted and prohibited that take them off the table for such use. So as the C.O. has point out antique handguns because they are not classified as restricted or prohibited can be legitimately used for hunting small game. To state the obvious if you are allowing the use of these type of handguns for use in hunting, it make little scene to forbid the use of restricted handguns for the same use. A handgun is a handgun regardless of the manner in which it loaded.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

So what is written on page 23 of the General Regulation seems to imply that the game laws do not forbid the use of handguns for hunting....

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That's what it seems to say. "Not handguns that are restricted or prohibited" implies that it's the restricted/prohibited status and not the handgun-ness that matters.

But again, the regs summary isn't the law. The law is the law and there's a lot of it. ;)

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

Do you recall what year that ended? I have been trying to find that out. I suspect it probably ended in 1971 when the government brought in handgun registration and that is the year my father no longer was required to carry a sidearm at the bank or was that in 1973?

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Registration has been in place long before 1971, but, my understanding is that handgun hunting ended in 1971 when Pierre Trudeau brought in the War Measures Act because of the FLQ crisis. No permits to carry for "hunting" were issued after that. If anyone knows more please add to this. I have seen a customer's permit he had for 1970.

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

So what is written on page 23 of the General Regulation seems to imply that the game laws do not forbid the use of handguns for hunting. It is only their classification as restricted and prohibited that take them off the table for such use. So as the C.O. has point out antique handguns because they are not classified as restricted or prohibited can be legitimately used for hunting small game. To state the obvious if you are allowing the use of these type of handguns for use in hunting, it make little scene to forbid the use of restricted handguns for the same use. A handgun is a handgun regardless of the manner in which it loaded.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Here is where you need to watch it.

These are not just handguns, they are 120 year old handguns at minimum.

If you say a handgun is a handgun is a handgun then you will have the rules changed to have every single handgun considered restricted or prohibited, no matter if it is a relic from the civil war era or one made last week. This is the same argument with semi auto, if every semi auto is the same as every other semi auto and some are restricted then it is the same logic for making them all restricted as making none of them restricted.

The thing is that the head CO here does not have any clue what the rules actually are, you also still write that it does not matter how it is loaded, but antique DOES NOT restrict someone to a muzzle loading handgun, it restricts based on age.

There are 41 Long Colt handguns out there that are made before 1898 and shoot a cartridge that you can very easily reload for and tons of Webley pistols loaded in 455 Webley that still have factory ammo made for them by Fiocchi that were manufactured before 1898.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b6/01/df/b...-hand-guns.jpg

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-...Right-Side.jpg

http://w.mawebcenters.com/static/eco...com-110-37.jpg

https://picturearchive.gunauction.co...91979a28c7.jpg

These all have antique status if proven to have been manufactured early enough.

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Originally Posted by Stu

Registration has been in place long before 1971, but, my understanding is that handgun hunting ended in 1971 when Pierre Trudeau brought in the War Measures Act because of the FLQ crisis. No permits to carry for "hunting" were issued after that. If anyone knows more please add to this. I have seen a customer's permit he had for 1970.

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I know that in 1964 my grandma could not outright buy a pistol for my grandpa, she was friends with the local police chief and she bought it for him, he was a bush pilot, and the police officer brought it from the store out to the house on Christmas morning for him.

Not sure what the laws on registration and licensing were but there was something, I still have the paperwork from the original sale :D

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Originally Posted by welsh

Remember that the regulations summary is not the law, or the regulations.

I'm not sure if this is actually in the FWCA itself.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

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Does it not mean that it "Is The Summary of The Law and Regulations " ! as this is what the CO,s go by for quick reference when they point out a violation.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Does it not mean that it "Is The Summary of The Law and Regulations " ! as this is what the CO,s go by for quick reference when they point out a violation.

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No,there's a clear disclaimer in the first three pages of The Summary that states "This is a guide only and should not be regarded as a legal document" or some such wording. Everyone should know to consult the actual wording of The FWCAct AND pertaining Ontario Regulations as written. The devil is in the details. :rolleye:

A handgun is a handgun, if an antique handgun can be legitimately used for hunting. There is no reason in God's earth for the government to deny the use of other handguns for hunting. It might even provide the impetus to turn around the underground trafficking of handguns that is currently plaguing our larger urban center. What is needed, to off set that circumstance, is the expansion of the legitimate retailing of handguns to a community of hunters, that is both law-abiding and trained in their safe and proper use, in what maybe described as a viable recreational activity. Hey, this is one of the arguments being offered to support the legalization of marijuana. It seems reasonable if it works for legitimizing the use of the weed, it should also be applicable to the use of handguns for hunting.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

No,there's a clear disclaimer in the first three pages of The Summary that states "This is a guide only and should not be regarded as a legal document" or some such wording. Everyone should know to consult the actual wording of The FWCAct AND pertaining Ontario Regulations as written. The devil is in the details. :rolleye:

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However, a Summary is ;
sum·ma·ry
ˈsəmərē/Submit
noun
1.
a brief statement or account of the main points of something.

in this case it is the summary of the main points of the law as it pertains to hunting and the regulations .

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

A handgun is a handgun, if an antique handgun can be legitimately used for hunting. There is no reason in God's earth for the government to deny the use of other handguns for hunting. It might even provide the impetus to turn around the underground trafficking of handguns that is currently plaguing our larger urban center. What is needed, to off set that circumstance, is the expansion of the legitimate retailing of handguns to a community of hunters, that is both law-abiding and trained in their safe and proper use, in what maybe described as a viable recreational activity. Hey, this is one of the arguments being offered to support the legalization of marijuana. It seems reasonable if it works for legitimizing the use of the weed, it should also be applicable to the use of handguns for hunting.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Why don't you take this argument up with the Government and the powers that be?

First paragraph on page 1
"This is a summary of information dealing with hunting licenses and hunting laws. This summary is neither a legal document nor a complete collection of the regulations."

Cheers

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Originally Posted by jaycee

However, a Summary is ;
sum·ma·ry
ˈsəmərē/Submit
noun
1.
a brief statement or account of the main points of something.

in this case it is the summary of the main points of the law as it pertains to hunting and the regulations .

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Fine,have it your way if you're so inclined to argue silly points. Look,just get yourself in Court and tell the Judge "I read it in the summary" and see what happens. Then,get your wallet out.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Fine,have it your way if you're so inclined to argue silly points. Look,just get yourself in Court and tell the Judge "I read it in the summary" and see what happens. Then,get your wallet out.

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I have always stayed on the " legal side " of things so I will never have to explain anything to a judge!
Been there , done that as a deputy CO for 8 years , [as a witness for the MNR'S side of issues. ]

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Does it not mean that it "Is The Summary of The Law and Regulations " ! as this is what the CO,s go by for quick reference when they point out a violation.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

I have always stayed on the " legal side " of things so I will never have to explain anything to a judge!
Been there , done that as a deputy CO for 8 years , [as a witness for the MNR'S side of issues. ]

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Thank you for your volunteer service. As a former LEO (OPP),I know that every bit of citizen assistance,especially, DCO or OPP Auxiliary,is invaluable. In fact,a tremendous amount of patrol and investigative work couldn't be done in a timely manner without them. It's a mistake,though,to assert that CO's use The Summary to establish which violations to enforce. Every one of the CO's I knew could cite The FWCAct verbatim. They didn't rely on The Summary for anything other than to point out the obvious to violators.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Thank you for your volunteer service. As a former LEO (OPP),I know that every bit of citizen assistance,especially, DCO or OPP Auxiliary,is invaluable. In fact,a tremendous amount of patrol and investigative work couldn't be done in a timely manner without them. It's a mistake,though,to assert that CO's use The Summary to establish which violations to enforce. Every one of the CO's I knew could cite The FWCAct verbatim. They didn't rely on The Summary for anything other than to point out the obvious to violators.

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" Your Honour ! the accused cannot plead that they did not know the law , as with a little reading it can be seen in black and white what the law is in the Hunting Regulations Summary.
We then charge them under the appropriate act , such as the FISH and Game Act, [now The FWC Act]] Or the Migratory Bird Conventions Act . "

This is a quote as I remember from several years ago.
This is why the reference is made with relationship to the Summary!

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Originally Posted by jaycee

" Your Honour ! the accused cannot plead that they did not know the law , as with a little reading it can be seen in black and white what the law is in the Hunting Regulations Summary.
We then charge them under the appropriate act , such as the FISH and Game Act, [now The FWC Act]] Or the Migratory Bird Conventions Act . "

This is a quote as I remember from several years ago.
This is why the reference is made with relationship to the Summary!

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Yep,the Judge would get a giggle from that defense because ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

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Originally Posted by Deer Wrastler

I know a couple hunters who carry a .22 pistol with them while hunting incase they need to dispatch an animal they shot and are just trying to end it quicker instead of letting it bleed out in agony

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Why do they need a .22 pistol to prevent the animal they've already shot with another gun from "bleed(ing) out in agony" when they have a gun already?

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Originally Posted by Badenoch

Why do they need a .22 pistol to prevent the animal they've already shot with another gun from "bleed(ing) out in agony" when they have a gun already?

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Cheaper, other than that there is no reason , if they get caught, they will definitely pay the price .

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Originally Posted by jaycee

When Kelso Roberts, a P.C . was attorney gen. also a handgunner member of the Toronto Club, he granted all handgunners in Ontario who were members in good standing in their club, had a permit to carry and a valid hunting license, "the Privilege to Hunt with a handgun."

Back then, 2 moose and 3 deer had fallen to my 44 mag. revolver, It was quite the experience , I also used to hunt ground hogs with it , and have shot a few sitting jacks with my .357 S& W . Wish those days could be brought back.

I think there are a couple of other members here on this forum that remember fondly those days.

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Lucky you. I would love to hunt Deer with my .44 mag, that would be a great experience.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Remember that the regulations summary is not the law, or the regulations.

I'm not sure if this is actually in the FWCA itself.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

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Why would it be written exactly as shown below and not be in the act.

"Firearms include rif les, shotguns, muzzle-loading guns, air or
pellet g uns, bows and crossbows. You may use semi-automatic or
repeating firearms for hunting in Ontario, but not handguns that are
restricted or prohibited firearms or fully automatic firearms. Air
and pellet pistols with a muzzle velocity less than 152 metres (500
feet) per second may be used for hunting in Ontario (see
restrictions on page 24). "

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Originally Posted by Fox

Why would it be written exactly as shown below and not be in the act.

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The point is that the summary is not the law. This is a fact. So why risk an expensive court date? Look at the law itself.

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Below is what the FWCA defines as a firearm in the definitions section of the act so apparently there is more to the law than what is "summarized" in the summary. firearms are addressed in other sections of the act as well such as hunting on sundays, etc. so not as easy as one might expect and possibly harder to keep track of what is legal and not to the average person trying to read and interpret law.

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“firearm” includes an air gun, pellet gun, bow or crossbow; (“arme à feu”)

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Originally Posted by welsh

The point is that the summary is not the law. This is a fact. So why risk an expensive court date? Look at the law itself.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

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Fine, you do what you want to do, another thread down the drain due to stupidity, add it to the list.

Too bad the forum has gone downhill so much.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Cheaper, other than that there is no reason , if they get caught, they will definitely pay the price .

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Claiming you should have a .22 pistol to put a wounded animal out of its misery is a piss poor rationale for carrying a handgun in the bush. No responsible hunter would let an animal suffer because they didn't have a pistol while in possession of a perfectly good long gun.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Fine, you do what you want to do, another thread down the drain due to stupidity, add it to the list.

Too bad the forum has gone downhill so much.

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The thread seems to be alive and well.

Grow up.

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Originally Posted by Badenoch

Claiming you should have a .22 pistol to put a wounded animal out of its misery is a piss poor rationale for carrying a handgun in the bush. No responsible hunter would let an animal suffer because they didn't have a pistol while in possession of a perfectly good long gun.

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There have been several instances where we could have used a pistol to dispatch wounded coyotes, rather than causing further damage with a rifle or shotgun ! I would imagine trappers would use one as well....

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

There have been several instances where we could have used a pistol to dispatch wounded coyotes, rather than causing further damage with a rifle or shotgun ! I would imagine trappers would use one as well....

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A machinist friend of ours, made up some adapters for us that were the dimensions of a 12 gauge shot gun shell with a .22 dia. hole in it that was off center and the firing pin from the shot gun would strike and detonate the .22 cartridge that was inserted into that hole/chamber.
When the barrel of the shot gun was placed up against the ear of a coyote or whatever, it was very effective and legal.
We had several of these that were used by shotgun shooters in the group.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

A machinist friend of ours, made up some adapters for us that were the dimensions of a 12 gauge shot gun shell with a .22 dia. hole in it that was off center and the firing pin from the shot gun would strike and detonate the .22 cartridge that was inserted into that hole/chamber.
When the barrel of the shot gun was placed up against the ear of a coyote or whatever, it was very effective and legal.
We had several of these that were used by shotgun shooters in the group.

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I have seen adapter, but not like that.
Sounds like a great idea. Maybe chamber a 44 or 45 with a 9 inch barrel.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

I have seen adapter, but not like that.
Sounds like a great idea. Maybe chamber a 44 or 45 with a 9 inch barrel.

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There are tons of options, the problem with a machinist friend making them is that they take on the liability, here are a couple links of adapter options for rifles and shotguns.

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/categor...er-conversions

https://www.gunadapters.com/

I have one in 12ga-38 Special, have not used it yet, was given it to dispatch animals on the farm but have not used anything but 22 LR stingers.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

There have been several instances where we could have used a pistol to dispatch wounded coyotes, rather than causing further damage with a rifle or shotgun ! I would imagine trappers would use one as well....

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Trappers can apply for a wilderness license. For the rest of us, contortions over "antique guns" or excuses about causing "further damage" by using the same gun to dispatch an animal that you wounded it with a few minutes before won't be enough to convince anyone in a position of authority to re-institute handgun hunting.

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Originally Posted by Badenoch

Trappers can apply for a wilderness license. For the rest of us, contortions over "antique guns" or excuses about causing "further damage" by using the same gun to dispatch an animal that you wounded it with a few minutes before won't be enough to convince anyone in a position of authority to re-institute handgun hunting.

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Nobody said it’s a good argument for handgun hunting. I merely responded to your “piss poor excuse” assertion!

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Originally Posted by Badenoch

Trappers can apply for a wilderness license. For the rest of us, contortions over "antique guns" or excuses about causing "further damage" by using the same gun to dispatch an animal that you wounded it with a few minutes before won't be enough to convince anyone in a position of authority to re-institute handgun hunting.

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They will not bring back handgun hunting in my lifetime, if anything they will ban more things.

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Originally Posted by Badenoch

Why do they need a .22 pistol to prevent the animal they've already shot with another gun from "bleed(ing) out in agony" when they have a gun already?

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Did you think about it first??? I never said they had another gun and I dont hunt with these people its just what they said they do. They could be bow hunting and as I also stated they take the occasional grouse with it. Why would you waste a 3006 or similar bullet if you have a .22 not to mention your going to try to headshot a moving animal with a high calibre rifle round thats kind of silly especially if you miss what you gonna do keep shooting rifle bullets at it. If its a buck your no longer getting a mount done if a 3006 explodes its skull now are you...now go find something productive to do, stop asking dumb questions that have relatively simple explanations if you sit back and think for a second or two.

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Originally Posted by Fox

They will not bring back handgun hunting in my lifetime, if anything they will ban more things.

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That....is a sure bet !

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Originally Posted by Deer Wrastler

Did you think about it first??? I never said they had another gun and I dont hunt with these people its just what they said they do. They could be bow hunting and as I also stated they take the occasional grouse with it. Why would you waste a 3006 or similar bullet if you have a .22 not to mention your going to try to headshot a moving animal with a high calibre rifle round thats kind of silly especially if you miss what you gonna do keep shooting rifle bullets at it. If its a buck your no longer getting a mount done if a 3006 explodes its skull now are you...now go find something productive to do, stop asking dumb questions that have relatively simple explanations if you sit back and think for a second or two.

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You go out with a 22 pistol in Ontario as a way to dispatch game you already shot and get caught with it then you will have gone on your last hunt with a firearm in Canada.

Why would another shot with a 30-06 matter? Lots of kill spots that will not blow up the deer, boiler room maybe? A large area with very little meat, maybe lose a rib or two but no big deal really. You could also use a knife, if you are close enough to kill it with a 22 pistol then you are close enough for a knife. If you are out bow hunting you always have that knife option, or a broadhead, I mean, yes, they are a couple bucks but the animal is already on the ground. I personally think a $10 arrow/broadhead is a cheap option when compared to a permanent firearms ban and time in the slammer, but that is just me.

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Originally Posted by Fox;1064142[B

]There are tons of options, the problem with a machinist friend making them is that they take on the liability,[/B] here are a couple links of adapter options for rifles and shotguns.

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/categor...er-conversions

https://www.gunadapters.com/

I have one in 12ga-38 Special, have not used it yet, was given it to dispatch animals on the farm but have not used anything but 22 LR stingers.

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A good machinist , knows his metals .
When making an adapter for .22 cal . in a 12 gauge, there is at least twice the amount of metal surrounding the .22 cal. than there is in most .22 cal. revolver cylinders, or barrels of some semi auto pistols.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

A good machinist , knows his metals .
When making an adapter for .22 cal . in a 12 gauge, there is at least twice the amount of metal surrounding the .22 cal. than there is in most .22 cal. revolver cylinders, or barrels of some semi auto pistols.

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I agree 100% there, but he is taking on the liability.

My brother has a lathe, was going to talk to him about making some up but it is a concern for the guy making it, trust and knowledge is everything.

I know of a few guys that take pistol barrels and use them as a sleeve inside a blank that fits in a shotgun chamber/forcing cone/barrel on a break action, you are using the same metal in the chamber area the only concern is that your bolt face on a shotgun is not designed for as much pressure as many modern pistols.

The idea has been done for years, very good idea and very nice for a survival situation too, a 303 Brit or 30-06 adapter down to 32 ACP gives you a very light survival system for small game and would still work well for dispatch.

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Originally Posted by Fox

I agree 100% there, but he is taking on the liability.

My brother has a lathe, was going to talk to him about making some up but it is a concern for the guy making it, trust and knowledge is everything.

I know of a few guys that take pistol barrels and use them as a sleeve inside a blank that fits in a shotgun chamber/forcing cone/barrel on a break action, you are using the same metal in the chamber area the only concern is that your bolt face on a shotgun is not designed for as much pressure as many modern pistols.

The idea has been done for years, very good idea and very nice for a survival situation too, a 303 Brit or 30-06 adapter down to 32 ACP gives you a very light survival system for small game and would still work well for dispatch.

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Truly Amazing !

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Originally Posted by Fox

Why would another shot with a 30-06 matter? Lots of kill spots that will not blow up the deer, boiler room maybe? A large area with very little meat, maybe lose a rib or two but no big deal really. You could also use a knife, if you are close enough to kill it with a 22 pistol then you are close enough for a knife. If you are out bow hunting you always have that knife option, or a broadhead, I mean, yes, they are a couple bucks but the animal is already on the ground.

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Exactly right and proves how the "need a pistol to put a wounded animal down" argument doesn't fly. The pistoleros who are itching to carry a handgun in the bush need to come up with something a little better.

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Originally Posted by Badenoch

Exactly right and proves how the "need a pistol to put a wounded animal down" argument doesn't fly. The pistoleros who are itching to carry a handgun in the bush need to come up with something a little better.

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An antique would be legal but not for deer, that being said, antique status is not a known one to many, the CO who answered the question got it wrong, so my expectation would be that a LEO you meet in the bush would not be able to get it right or would just confiscate it until you fight hard enough to get it back, not very nice on a $4000 handgun.

I know of some guys that use them in BC and Alberta well off the main paths, an old Webley in an RCMP leather covered holster, no putting this in a holster under your coat, you are carrying a concealed weapon that that point.

It would be really cool to go out and get a rabbit or grouse with a 120 year old handgun, really cool, maybe a custom shotshell and a wingshot grouse ala Annie Oakly, people can dream right.

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Originally Posted by Fox

An antique would be legal but not for deer, that being said, antique status is not a known one to many, the CO who answered the question got it wrong, so my expectation would be that a LEO you meet in the bush would not be able to get it right or would just confiscate it until you fight hard enough to get it back, not very nice on a $4000 handgun.

I know of some guys that use them in BC and Alberta well off the main paths, an old Webley in an RCMP leather covered holster, no putting this in a holster under your coat, you are carrying a concealed weapon that that point.

It would be really cool to go out and get a rabbit or grouse with a 120 year old handgun, really cool, maybe a custom shotshell and a wingshot grouse ala Annie Oakly, people can dream right.

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I am not sure how the CO got the answer incorrect as they were speaking of small game. The only restriction would be in the municipalities which have the .275 (or smaller) caliber restriction.

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

I am not sure how the CO got the answer incorrect as they were speaking of small game. The only restriction would be in the municipalities which have the .275 (or smaller) caliber restriction.

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The answer based on the OP, said a gun that did not use a metallic cartridge, a metallic cartridge or lack there of does not define an antique handgun but rather the proven age of manufacture and the cartridge that it is chambered in. A flintlock pistol made in 1990 is not an antique but a revolver made in 1897 chambered for the 455 Webley, which is still chambered, is considered an antique.

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Originally Posted by Fox

The answer based on the OP, said a gun that did not use a metallic cartridge, a metallic cartridge or lack there of does not define an antique handgun but rather the proven age of manufacture and the cartridge that it is chambered in. A flintlock pistol made in 1990 is not an antique but a revolver made in 1897 chambered for the 455 Webley, which is still chambered, is considered an antique.

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No, the OP never stated anything about metallic cartridges in his first post. He uses the same conditions the Criminal Code uses to define an antique firearm.

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

No, the OP never stated anything about metallic cartridges in his first post. He uses the same conditions the Criminal Code uses to define an antique firearm.

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This is the direct quote from the first post of the thread.

"Latest edition of Ontario Out of Door, August 2018, Pg 22 Ask a C.O. According to the Provincial Enforcement Specialist for the MNRF, David Critchlow. Antique handguns manufactured before 1898 that do not use metallic rim-fire and centre-fire cartridge, and have not been converted to do so can be used to take small game. Good news for black-powder burners. What hasn't been clarified is whether modern renditions of these firearm will qualify. Could this be the hole in the dike, that those who interested in using modern handguns to hunt with have been looking for? After all a handgun is a handgun whether it is sparked by a primer or a percussion cap. "

Specifically written here.

"Antique handguns manufactured before 1898 that do not use metallic rim-fire and centre-fire cartridge, and have not been converted to do so can be used to take small game."

The CO states the condition for an antique firearm (which do not fall under restricted/prohibited status) . I can not find anything in the FWCA which precludes antique firearms. So where did the CO get his answer wrong?

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

The CO states the condition for an antique firearm (which do not fall under restricted/prohibited status) . I can not find anything in the FWCA which precludes antique firearms. So where did the CO get his answer wrong?

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The original post for the thread was with respect to the question and answer section of the Ontario Out of Doors magazine where David Critchlow answered that antique handguns can be used for hunting in Ontario and antique handguns are ones that are manufactured before 1898 that do not use metallic rim-fire and center-fire cartridges.

This is essentially saying that muzzle loading or cap and ball handguns are the only ones that are antique, this is not the legal definition of antique in Ontario.

David Critchlow from his answer printed in the magazine does not know the definition of antique in Canada.

So the fact he didn't add all handguns which qualify as antiques makes his answer incorrect? I disagree. He generalized his answer under the conditions of the Criminal Code, not the Regulations Prescribing Antique Firearms. While I acknowledge he didn't touch upon the regulations, the fact he acknowledges antique firearms are acceptable for small game hunting should be the take away from his answer.