How’s the rifle hunt going In wmu47?
Dustin
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How’s the rifle hunt going In wmu47?
Dustin
Just came back today from Trout Creek-Commanda. 3 does down on first day, only 4 more deer seen during the rest of the week, none dispatched. Boy,they sure got smart, fast.:ninja:
first week was a tough go in port loring area from what I have heard from neighbours, etc.
We are close in WMU 47
Only saw two deer in 7 days in the field.
One buck is in the freezer
Is there lots of sighn of coyotes or wolves in the area??
I’m heading up next weekend. Might pick up a wolf tag just to have in the pocket.
Dustin
In 47 today, Super quite. Only some plinkering heard at noon time.
three wolves patrolled our land on Wednesday.......didn't see a deer track after that.
We returned yesterday. Filled our two doe tags and got a 7 pointer as well. Two of the deer were shot on Sunday and the other was on Tuesday. The coyotes arrived through the night Wednesday night and cleaned up all three gut piles. There were many more deer to be had, lots of fresh tracks every day but didn't spot another buck.
Hunted second week in Port Loring area, the snow did reveal some tracks but did not see deer for 4 days dogging and blocking with 13 guys, 5th day we changed things up as most tracks headed east, set up a block line and took 4 deer that day. We are seeing an increase in coyote/wolf activity over the last few years and definately need to thin them out. Also seeing adult moose but no calves.
Bubba14, did you see tracks around your gut piles or just gone?
We hunted the first week near Restoule. We ended up with a 4 deer total big doe and 3 fawns. This had to be the quietest week i can remember in hunting the area for over 20 years. Heard very little shooting going on in the area. Locals said there has been a pile of coyote and wolf in the area this year. One guy said he knew about 5 does with twins in the spring that were alone by mid summer.
Restoule area. Worst hunt we've experienced in the 30 years I've been hunting there. Same for the other camps all around us; all had zero to little success. Weather was terrible both weeks, but there is little evidence that the herd is recovering from the 2013 & 2014 winters. The coyotes are plentiful, but you can't shoot them without the special wolf seal. MNRF had cut the doe tags in WMU 47 from 6000 to 4000, but it doesn't matter, those numbers are still way too high; we still get more doe tags than our camp could ever possibly use (we drew 15 doe tags this year!). Doe tag issuance in WMU 47 has always been marked by extremes; its either feast or famine and has no relationship to the deer numbers hunters are seeing in the woods.
We saw the coyote tracks, up and down our main trails right to the gut piles. On the Friday of the first week one of the guys went for a walk and said he saw a massive wolf track along with scat full of hair on one of our trails.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Davis
Ok thanks, just curious as most of our gut piles were taken away by ravensQuote:
Originally Posted by Bubba14
Did the 2nd week for the first time in the Maple Island area. Went in Sunday to lots of snow. Argo would hit a tree and whoosh, down the snow would come off the branches. I looked like a snowman driving a stage coach as I was sitting up high on sheets of plywood, LOL.
The guys that went in Friday and hunted Saturday, didn't like getting covered in snow walking through the brush. They saw tracks, but no deer. Sunday they cut downed trees on the trail.
We had 3 doe tags for 7 guys.
Monday 1 doe was seen, but not taken. 1 fellow saw at least a 55 to 60 inch bull. There were many moose tracks. The deer were travelling at night for the most part.
Nothing was seen Tuesday, but a lot of tracks. 2 fellows saw where bucks were breeding does. There was blood present at those sites.
Wednesday we went 3 abreast up some ridges and I put a doe over to a guy within feet of him and he let it pass. A 100 yards or so later I put up a fawn and let it go. It had been laying down in the sun. After lunch we did a push and I put up another doe over to another driver within feet of him where it stopped and he let that one go. There was a 2nd one with it from the tracks when I got up to where I saw it. It was playing along fine, then decided to turn and go back through us, but no one saw it.
Thursday the 4 non doe tag holders went home. Us other 3 cut wood, fixed a winch cable on a quad, replaced a solenoid on another quad and I changed a punctured Argo tire, and took it easy.
Friday woke up to 4" of new snow. I got onto a fresh track, my partner also found a buck track. Got onto it right from his freshened scrape. I follow my track and saw where it went up onto a rock and looked back and saw me. On the run he went from there. My partner radioed me and said he was now on my track, so I let him catch up and we had lunch. That buck took us south and south a long ways, always running until he made an abrupt right turn, dropped off a 4 foot drop down to ice and crossed a 30 foot wide, long beaver pond without breaking the ice. It was 2 o'clock and we didn't feel like backtracking a long ways to take up the track again.
Saturday we only saw 1 fresh track, but absolutely tons of night time tracks and several places where they eating. Just about every where you went there were tracks, and a lot of single, big tracks.
No wolves were seen or heard, no bear either, but saw where they had broken oak limbs.
Saw 4 deer. Had fun, even with no deer down.
We are just around the corner from you. Few miles past the Maple Island store south side of the Mag river We would probably hear you shoot....lol. We saw absolutely nothing. Plenty of moose sign but never heard wolves or coyotes. That tells me there aren’t many deer left. They stopped feeding in the deer yards same time as the harsh winters. I’m afraid it will never bounce back.Quote:
Originally Posted by cramadog2
This pretty much sums it up...Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
https://www.northbaynipissing.com/ne...s-way-of-dodo/
I didn't realize the Loring Deer yard was essentially an artificial creation. If that's the case, I think it's better that the MNRF has decided to stop feeding. What's the point of artificially boosting the population in the area? It's not sustainable, and the current situation seems to support that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninepointer
Deer have been migrating to the Loring deer yard as their winter range since the forest formed after the last ice age. Beginning in the middle of the 20th century the deer benefited from management activities that included supplemental feeding, cutting of browse and trail creation.Quote:
Originally Posted by rf2
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninepointer
That article is from April 2016 , old.
I just spoke with a friend that has 800 acres in the area up there, he said that the feeding program was dropped at least 22 years ago by the then M.N.R. and that the hunt camps in the area carried on with it.
He has been involved as he said he has taken from his farm In the K.W. area, 15 round bales of good hay for the least 18 years, the last 3 years the number of hay bales has dropped considerably as the number of deer has been dwindling drastically.
The article is just as relevant as it was 2 years ago. Nothing has changed since 2016 or since the harsh winters of 2013 & 2014. The deer herd is not showing a recovery.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
They used to feed the deer down the Jack Lake Road area in Apsley,I suppose all that is gone now.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
The MNRF interferred with the Loring deer yards much the same way they interferred with the Walleye enhancment programme run by volunteers in the Loring area. The fish ponds that were made to rear walleye fingerlings for the local lakes worked really well but that programme is gone as well.
The most important thing we can do as individuals right now is to remember to complete (by mail, phone or internet) the MNRF deer hunt questionnaires that we all received. This is the data upon which the MNRF makes future management decisions. Please complete and submit your questionnaires.
On an organizational scale, I've been reaching out on behalf of our hunt camp to OFAH Zone D, OFAH Directors-at-large and to the Ontario Hunt Camps Association to work with them to get our concerns to the MNRF. If you are not a member of any of these organizations, I suggest you put your comments/concerns in writing directly to the MNRF (Peterborough head office) and to Norm Miller MPP.
Don't lie though, tons of guys figure that if they say they saw a pile of deer then they will get more antlerless tags.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninepointer
Great conservationists eh.
That would truly be sad if hunters lied on their surveys simply to get more antlerless tags in a WMU where the deer are currently not doing well at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
This fall between 1-week hunters and 2-week hunters we had 26 hunters in our camp and 15 antlerless tags. That's way more tags than we could ever possibly hope to use. Tags are of no use if there are no deer to hang them on.
The back-to-back harsh winters of 2013 & 2014 decimated the WMU 47 deer herd and last winter was almost as bad. That's 3 bad winters in 5 years. The herd has not recovered. It can recover; deer have an amazingly resilient reproductive capacity. But the herd needs to be given a chance to recover. If that means antlerless tag restrictions, so be it. I'd also like to see biologically-sound supplemental feeding reinstated in the Loring deer yard to support a recovery, along with a more nimble program for emergency feeding that can be put into action when its actually needed.
They need to shut down for doe tags in our area for 3 years. Zones are too big, our area is decimated yet some parts of 49 are ok.
They do it all the time, people say to pad the numbers all the time, make sure we do not lose tags then talk conservationist when natives go out and shoot moose, see the problem here.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninepointer
I think they should have mandatory check in stations for the animals like they do in many states, I do not really care how far you are away from a station, it would be a very responsible thing to do, especially in an area where number are hurting.
I haven't hunted the area in 4 years, but talk to my cousins who live in Loring area and hunt the 2 weeks. 6 of them this year hunted, saw and got 1 small deer. Glad I didn't go this year.
I agree that if the population in WMU 47 is in bad shape, antlerless tags should be reduced.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninepointer
I don't agree with supplemental feeding. My view is that this will just artificially increase the population beyond the natural carrying capacity of the region. Why not just let the population return to a balanced level without supplemental feeding - maybe then there wouldn't be these drastic fluctuations? I don't want to start a war here, and I I think that you are one of the posters on this site that always presents sensible, well thought-out views, so I'd like to hear why you support the reinstatement of supplemental feeding.
I would also ask Ninepointer the usefulness of the questionnaire.You see the same single doe for a week,but then answer you saw seven deer.No wonder the survey becomes redundant.
You raise a common concern Gilroy. But any properly designed study that relies on self-reporting will have weighting factors built into the data-crunching calculations to help mitigate (impossible to eliminate) error, duplication and bias. I'm not familiar with MNRF's study model and can only assume they are using the same tried and true methods as other North American wildlife management agencies. Self-reporting never produces precise numbers, but its effectiveness in demonstrating trends/patterns is proven. Nevertheless, every biologist I've met would love to have a budget that would allow for regular aerial surveys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Good question. I guess I'm falling back on what I've heard from some old timers I know who used to be involved in annual, hands-on, deer yard management. To hear them talk they are pretty convinced they were doing something effective and sustainable. They understand the difference between safe supplemental feeding versus dangerous high-energy feed such as corn. I'm no biologist though, just a guy who'd like to see some good done. Its frustrating when for years some of us have been saying that too many does are being shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by rf2
I think today there are probably much more accurate ways to get a better picture of the deer population.Picture is an intended pun,we have hundreds of people out there today with trail camera,s,that are taking hundreds of images.I believe this tool alone gives very accurate numbers,as a good comparison of different photo,s can determine if its the same buck or even doe.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninepointer
On my 200 acres without even a camera I can give a good estimate of the number of deer,especially this year with tracking snow.
I think most landowners have a pretty good clue of the deer numbers on the land,Crown land hunters with trail cameras also have a good idea.
The questions just need to be changed ie How many individual deer did you see, what acerage are you hunting over....
The first step I would implement are mandatory check stations for all deer killed. There are plenty of staff in that ministry who could use some time in the field. I also think some of these zones are too big and management decisions aren’t as effective as the science thinks.
As for supplemental feeding an argument for or against has value on both sides but it’s effectiveness is proven. In our corner of #49 the herd has been decimated by 2 bad winters and the end of deer yard feeding. We don’t even hear shooting anymore during deer week. Used to be you would hear shooting everyday from surrounding camps. Last couple years it was silent as if the hunt wasn’t on.
Hunted the second week in 47. Gang of 7 got 2 deer. Deer yard in our area , the migration had started at the first of the week and had increased by the end of the week. Over the last several years , the migration was later, as the weather was mild. I think the local deer population , was fairly low , before the migration. Quite a few local moose in the area, not much calf sign. We did see one. Had a good hunt. old243
I think you are right about the size of some of the management area,s ie WMU60 for me is way to big.We have a great Moose population on the north west sideQuote:
Originally Posted by terrym
where a lot more tags could be given out.But atlas with the screw up,s in hunters taking the wrong Moose the tag numbers will be kept low.
[QUOTE=ninepointer;1074898]Good question. I guess I'm falling back on what I've heard from some old timers I know who used to be involved in annual, hands-on, deer yard management. To hear them talk they are pretty convinced they were doing something effective and sustainable. They understand the difference between safe supplemental feeding versus dangerous high-energy feed such as corn. I'm no biologist though, just a guy who'd like to see some good done. Its frustrating when for years some of us have been saying that too many does are being shot.
From what I understand about the historical range of the whitetail deer is that they are at their northern limit.
There were basically no deer north of nipissing.
So it’s quite possible in my view , that without some help from managers and landowners that very few deer may exist in that country.
Which would explain why the past generations have helped them out and looked after them.
Seems everyone likes to quote the experts of the day on management.
Maybe just maybe the old boys new what was up .....
and without some help there won’t be many whitetail deer.
Food for thought.... My opinion only.
I hunted 42 and 47 for 30 years in the Pickerel/French River area. I haven't for a few years now because it is unproductive.
One problem, as mentioned is the doe tag allotments, its never been in sync with actual deer numbers. Back in the late 80's your group (8-10) would be lucky to have 1 or maybe 2 antler less tags but yet we often saw does. As years past the success rate went up to 90-100% for antler less tags. Our numbers began to plummet from that point but yet the tag ratio stayed the same.
I keep in contact with the members and their success has been dismal over the last 5 years and this year they never saw a deer nor any sign.
There perhaps needs to be changes in personal and group ethics. When it's glaringly obvious that deer numbers are down, why do people still apply for an antlerless tag with the intention of using it. There is absolutely zero sense in my mind to be harvesting any does if yore hoping to see things improve. You might as well just put a shell in the chamber and shoot yourself in the foot. I see hunt camp groups complaining that the quality of the hunt is lousy and theyre not seeing any deer, yet every member applies for a doe tag and they fill some of these tags every year. Both my wife and i both apply every year and we're usually both successful. We only shoot bucks. Hopefully our two unused tags will keep someone else from eliminating more females from the population.. Ive given up on assuming that mnr is going to manage the herd properly. Perhaps we all need to do our part to help increase recruitment. Imagine if the majority of hunters and camps did the same thing for even a 3 to 5 year period - only take antlered deer
I can't say the MNR has done a bad job of managing the Deer herds...at least in Eastern Ont. We were awash with deer 10-15 yrs back so they increased the amount of Doe tags in the draw and provided 'additional' tags. It worked, the hunters culled off and reduced the numbers to where they deer herds were more sustainable and less human deer conflicts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
In the ensuing years, the draw results were keep low fewer than 20 % in most MWUs. We were lucky to have one Doe Tag in camp of 10 hunters. The deer herds have rebounded due to milder winters etc and the MNR is now adding more tags to the draw. We had 5 in camp this year.
They do a pretty good job...the only ones who seem to complain are the hunters who aren't seeing, what they feel, is enough deer. Which, ironically is the desired result of a well managed herd. We shouldn't see deer every time we are out or there is something wrong with the population density.
The north-east district (WMU 47 and much of 48 & 49) situation is much different than eastern Ontario. When the generous allotment of doe tags brought the herd down from the peak of 15 years ago to more sustainable levels, the tags still kept coming in copious numbers in the years that followed. It wasn't until after the back-to-back hard winters of 2013/14, the tags were reduced in WMU 47 from 6000 to 4000, but it was too late. Might as well have reduced the tags from 60,000 to 40,000 for all the good it did. The herd was knocked on its azz but the tags still kept coming like candy; more tags than a camp could ever hope to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
MikePal, you'd have to see it to believe it. Aside from a few pockets, most of the north-east district virtually deer-less . Report after report from long-standing camps camps of 10-20 hunters harvesting or even seeing zero deer over a 2-week season. My camp is 100 years old and has detailed harvest and sighting records going back 50 years. We know what normal is and this is not normal. The last time it was this bad was the early 1970's. This isn't about pining for the glory days, its about a herd in crisis that needs help to recover and a Ministry that is tone-deaf.
^^^. What he said. Our camp is in 49 and the herd has been decimated. Yes strong words but the unfortunate truth. This year we didn’t even hear wolves or coyotes. That tells you the deer aren’t there. The first week of the hunt was totally silent. Never heard a shot. It was like the season hadn’t started. We used to hear surrounding camps shoot all day every day. Drastic measures are needed in our area. There should be no doe tags issued for 5 years and the season cut back to one week. Drastic yes, but necessary.
The assumption that the MNR manages deer herds at all is wrong. They manage tag sales through the limited data they receive through hunter questionnaires and very limited deer yard surveys.
That's great that they got it right in Eastern Ontario but my guess it that would have been mostly by BS luck. Like ninepointer said, they gave out extra tags like candy for too long in too many WMU's because they liked the extra revenue too much and had no real grasp on what was happening with the deer populations. That combined with the upswing in the coyote population has led to a total collapse in some areas.
That's not just me being upset because I'm not seeing as many deer, that's the reality. Ontario is big... what might have worked well enough in one region didn't work at all in others.
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it's true 47 hasn't recovered from the back to back hard winters of 13/14 , what the deep snows didn't kill the wolves did. The other serious problem is the late archery season. When the deer start to migrate and are in the wintering areas they are sitting ducks. I know many of the hunters from the older traditional camps would rather wait till after the gun season and the snows come to fill their tags.
Some biologists in both peterborough and minden/bancroft districts should have been fired in 2013-14 on the grounds of being totally incompetant as wildlife managers. They ignored their own Owsi data and continued to issue ridiculous amounts of antlerless tags when their own data clearly showed there was a catostrophic total loss of the fawn crop both years. The second December hunts should never have happened in the following years and the antlerless tags should have been cut by 80% for at least a two year period. Makes me wonder why they even bother running the provincial snow courses if they're not using the data to make management decisions. A waste of taxpayers dollars to even send a tech out weekly to collect the data. I have pretty much zero trust in mnr to manage the resource in a responsible manner. It shouldn't come as any surprise that the north end of 75, all of 56 and 60 are deserts for deer. The idiots in charge of managing the resource are asleep at the wheel. Get your doe tag next year and put it on a buck only.
And yet it wasnt that long ago (2014, I believe) that WMU 49 had additional seals for the first time ever. There was deer everywhere. Behind every maple tree, in every cedar swamp.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Winters have been very hard of late for deer. Central ON is not tradionally a strong deer area. Its marginal deer habitat at best.
Am I seeing something incorrectly? Isn't this also one of the designated moose areas the MNR wishes to see the whitetail population knocked down in? Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the moose got the crap kicked out of them up north to make way for the woodland caribou that will never return and in turn the whitetail in these areas knocked out to recuperate the moose population.
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I'm not sure where that information came from. ???Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
In my opinion the " the moose got the crap kicked out of them up north" had nothing to do with some ingenious designed plan but rather another failed MNR management system that gave preference to a certain group of people, amongst other issues.
It’s not too complicated, our wildlife has been mismanaged for years now. All they care about is getting our tag money and then they also mismanage that. Friggin joke IMO.
I dont even hunt 49 anymore. Camp owns 700 acres and thousands of crown around it. Walk all week and dont even see a deer track. Last good buck we got up there was in 2011. We aren't even seeing deer during the moose hunt(before they migrate when snow falls).
I will only bear and wolf/coyote hunt there now as they are still over populated. Wish I knew locals that ran hounds up there that I could join with, knock the wolves back a bit
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You're bang on, Fenelon. After the 2013 & 2014 winters we were certain than antlerless tags would be significantly cut. After all, EVERYBODY could see that the deer population had been decimated. But the tags kept coming like nothing happened. I too wonder what the MNRF does with winter severity index data and with deer hunter questionnaire data. Its certainly not being applied to year-to-year management decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
Interesting reports. I know a guy[ newbie hunter] that owns 200 acres with a lovely cottage on it up around Huntsville area and he was told by locals that there was no deer because of wolves. I was going to call B.S. on that because locals just want to shoot his property.... LoL ! Now he's hinting at joining my gang down here in 90B. Bigger problem is I rent the property off his in-laws and have no room for a new guy.
Have been on this forum for a bunch of years.
Thought I would register as a member and hope to contribute.
Took a drive down some of the roads in the deer yards over the weekend.
Saw a few deer but not the numbers from a few years ago.
Snow is about 3 foot deep with many layers of hard crust.
The snow has been on the ground since mid November and extreme cold temperatures
Hope to se the weather break so we don't have another repeat of 2013.
HG
Welcome to the forum....in my part of Ontario (South Western portion) it hasn't been that bad, some cold temps but the snow level isn't bad at all. I hope we get an early spring too as it must be tough on the wildlife with these temps and deep snow.....Quote:
Originally Posted by hunt guy
If I was calling the shots at the MNRF there would be a total shutdown of doe tags in WMU 49 for 5 years. I would also only have a one week season. Our herd has been decimated. They don’t winter feed anymore so either this is the new normal or drastic steps are needed.
Looking at the forecast it's going to be bad for them this year. 14 day forecast shows only more snow. Had to shovel the snow off the shop roof this weekend - first time in a while. This is in 47 around Restoule and not far from the yards.Quote:
Originally Posted by hunt guy
Fully agree it's getting sad. I'm not hunting up there anymore as we have been skunked two years in a row, using 3 awesome beagles that couldn't even lift a deer. Cant wait til they ban wolf hunting up here too, make it even harder on the deer in the winter.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
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