https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ToTLgnoJvI
I saw this pop up today in my email, a Traditions crackshot rimfire gun converted to shoot bolts at around 385fps, the range limitation would be about the same as a crossbow, still shooting a bolt with a broadhead, would this be considered a gun or a bow in the regulations?
Opinions?
Of course we be just speculation here but I think definition is not based on projectile but propulsion. From what I see it would be akin to a 22 rimfire.
It is propelled by a 27 cal blank, so not a cartridge at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
I guess I look at what is being propelled rather than that is propelling it.
We say shotgun only they shoot shotguns with rifled barrels and hitting deer at 200+ yards away.
We have muzzleloaders that are smokeless and loaded with more powder than a 300 Win Mag.
We use crossbows that move an arrow at 400fps and group tighter than many rifles.
I think it is a really cool idea, with the above examples I don't know where it will lie, to the other regs it should be considered a gun firing an arrow but for hunting what part will they take into consideration.
Blank or not the question would be center fire or rimfire.
True, it would be a gun with respect to a PAL or not, but you are shooting an arrow and have limited range, could that be a reason for use in bow hunting.Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
This is the same as taking anything shooting a shotgun shell and calling it a shotgun but a savage bolt action fully rifled barreled shotgun is not the intend of the shotgun rules.
It would meet the definition of a “Firearm” for criminal code or firearms act purposes..
Its not a bow at all. How could it be considered a bow? The fact it shoots arrows is irrelevant.
As a kid we used to make funny weapons and have compitions on targets. I guess someone saw us and called the cops. The officer told me that anything projected from an barrel is considered a firearm and we could be charged. So I told him a spit ball projected from pen is then a firearm right. He smiled and didn't know what to say. So as an adult I would consider that to be a firearm regardless of what is projected.
Didn't a company make an airgun that does the same thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwqMkjYjmtw ...... Not much different ? ....... small game I would think it's ok ..... but wouldn't think it's legal on big game .
Glen
Last week on Wild TV The High Road, Keith Warren, there was a bear hunting episode at the Hillsport Hillton Lodge in Hillsport, Ontario and a girl (21 yr old woman) shoots a black bear with an air rifle shooting an arrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by G Skinner
Here it is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVXW8TUT6JY
Warren starts off the video saying it's legal to use in Ontario. Shoots a bear with it!
Holy Crap ..look at the size of that gun...it's almost as big as she is... LOL.
She could just drop it on the bear if it walks under the tree to kill it! HAH!Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
On another note. The MNR has strict requirements when hunting bear with archery equipment. These somewhat mimic the archery requirements for other big game like deer or moose. All these requirements deal with minimal bow poundage, arrow lengths, broad head diameter. Nothing has any exemption for arrow speed or kinetic energy.
From a firearm perspective only a center fire rifle or a shotgun 20 gauge or larger.
Pellet guns / air rifles are not mentioned anywhere.
Be it archery or firearm regulations this weapon satisfies neither when used for big game.
So how does Keith Warren get away with this? Where is our MNR in this?
If the weapon is legal then make a change to the regs to let the rest of us know.
If illegal then issue a charge and again let the hunting public know.
One of which is the Broadhead...must have 2 sharp cutting edges and be a minimum of 22mm wide. What she was showing was basically a large field point. (video 2:14 in)...no cutting edges.Quote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
So from what I read..that is illegal for hunting.
At 11.50 in the video it clearly shows a broadhead.
That is what I was getting at, it exceeds the minimums for crossbow energy, if you had a PAL it does not extend your range any more than a cross bow, you should be able to make the case that it should be included under the bow regulations.Quote:
Originally Posted by G Skinner
Saying that straight wall cartridge guns with a mag/chamber combination of 3rds should be allowed in SW Ontario as they are no more dangerous than a shotgun with a modern slug.
This should be reported to the MNRF, let them decide the legality of this issue and deal with it one way or another before things go too far and many decide that this is the way to hunt without knowing the legal aspect of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
You're right, 3-4 times it showed the 'bolt' with a field tip. It obviously has a broadhead attachment.Quote:
Originally Posted by WillieBeno
It may boil down to the definition of archery or bows and arrows. Not sure if this will fit in with that!!
If it goes bang and/or shoots anything,it's a firearm. Me likey. :moose:
I love it! If that would be allowed for bow hunting I’d use it. My first thought though was what happens if a deer is below you and you need to aim down? Would the arrow fall out? Creep down a bit?
The rubber 'O' ring at the base of the arrow will hold it...
I am sure that is already part of the design.Quote:
Originally Posted by marky.mark
This is definitely not a crossbow or a long bow and therefore is not a bow and would not be eligible for use in a bows-only season as per S. 82.
I'm not sure that it fits any of the prohibitions under S. 75. It is rim-fire but not likely a rifle. It is a firearm so it is not prohibited by S. 83.
Is it a rim-fire shotgun? If so it looks like it is legal, but I don't know for certain.
Relevant sections of O. Reg. 665-98 (Hunting):
Quote:
75. A person shall not use a rifle known as a rim-fire rifle, a shotgun smaller than 20 gauge when loaded with shot or any shotgun loaded with shot smaller than SG or number one buck for hunting big game. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 75.
82. A person shall not hunt big game with a bow unless it is a crossbow or long-bow, used with an arrow or bolt, that meet the following requirements:
1. The crossbow must have,
i. a draw length of at least 300 millimetres, and
ii. a draw weight, at the release latch mechanism or at some point between the release latch mechanism and the point of string rest, of,
A. at least 45 kilograms when woodland caribou or deer are being hunted, or
B. at least 54 kilograms when bear, American elk or moose are being hunted.
2. The long-bow must have a draw weight, at some point between a draw length of 700 millimetres and the point of string rest, of,
i. at least 18 kilograms when woodland caribou or deer are being hunted, or
ii. at least 22 kilograms when bear, American elk or moose are being hunted.
3. The arrow must,
i. be at least 600 millimetres in length, and
ii. have a head that is at least 22 millimetres at its widest part and that has at least two sharp cutting edges.
4. The bolt must have a head that is at least 22 millimetres at its widest part and that has at least two sharp cutting edges. O. Reg. 442/16, s. 8.
83. A person shall not hunt big game with a weapon other than a firearm. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 83.
I would assume it would be considered a gun. It uses a percussion cap/blank .22 for propulsion and shoots a bolt instead of an bullet.
I would think loading would be a recipe for slicing finger tips
I am sure there is a way to do it, maybe a loading tool, I did think the same think though.Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
I thought of perhaps the broadhead holding tool, but I feel like it would be too easy to absently mindedly touch it, or forget that its there (thinking its a gun).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Neat idea. I don’t think it qualifies as either bow or rifle, it’s going to need a category all to itself.
Not a bow of any kind whatsoever,a bow uses the stored energy of bowed limbs.This is a firearm that uses gunpowder to launch a projectile that just happens to be tipped with a broadhead.
Not to say it’s totally illegal,ie; if there is an open firearm season for bear or deer whatever,have at’er,but can’t see it being legal anywhere in North America during any bow only season,it’s not a bow at all.