Election Results

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October 22nd, 2019, 04:46 AM
mosquito

Election Results

So far...
https://nationalpost.com/
LIbEralS
Pop vote: 33.05%
Elected: 156
Lead: 1

CONSERVATIVES
121
Pop vote: 34.41%
Elected: 121
Lead: 0

Bloc Quebec
32
Pop vote: 7.7%
Elected: 32
Lead: 0

NDP
24
Pop vote: 15.91%
Elected: 23
Lead: 1

GRN
3
Pop vote: 6.5%
Elected: 3

Lead: 0

OTH
1
Pop vote: 0.8%
Elected: 1
Lead: 0

PPC
0
Pop vote: 1.64%
Elected: 0
Lead: 0

Liberal Party of Canada 110 33.1% 5,911,879
Conservative Party of Canada 79 34.4% 6,153,521
New Democratic Party 17 15.9% 2,846,207
Bloc Québécois 14 7.7% 1,377,137
PPC 0 1.6% 292,808

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elec.../2019/results/

and 2015 for comparison
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Result...deral_election

about 1,000,000 less voted Lib and about 1/2 those voted Conservative as compared to last time and Bloc took the other 1/2.
October 22nd, 2019, 05:00 AM
mosquito

Well JWR got to keep her seat.... which is good I think even with her being so far in leftie land.

200,000+ more voted Conservatives than Libs, guess Justin is glad he lied about election reform.

Seems channelling National Socialist methods worked ... https://twitter.com/_patrioticdad/st...031872?lang=en for McKenna
Bill Blair lied his way to power again.....

So we will see an NDP and Lib coalition likely .... Bloc unlikely.... the 250,000 firearms ... gone, pipeline projects ... gone, tax relief .... gone, balanced budgets/accountability/RCMP investigations.... GONE!

Tax increases - coming, immigration increases - coming, deficits - coming.... and likely a complete fubar of Canada.... seems to be coming too.

The PPC turnout wasn't huge but I am expecting to see when the numbers are crunched they cost the Conservatives many seats. (probably 10 is my GUESS)

Quote:

P.s.

Probably a Western Separatist party of some kind and definitely rising sentiment that way once Justlied Trudeau makes sure Saudi oil is safe and the west ignored or punished in some way ... beside the looming fast killing carbon tax.

Haven't read it yet, no time now ... https://torontosun.com/opinion/colum...divided-canada

With the increase in the Bloc... I wouldn't be surprised to see a surge in separatism there too... even as they leach billions in support from the rest of Canada.
October 22nd, 2019, 06:18 AM
terrym

Pretty well played out like the polls were predicting. Cons are terrible campaigners. Trudough got a pretty large minority so likely won’t be taken down unless he infuriates Quebec. They’re easy to placate, just keep sending them money. What will be interesting is if seperation gets some more traction out West?
October 22nd, 2019, 08:14 AM
Snowwalker

Quote:

Originally Posted by terrym

Pretty well played out like the polls were predicting. Cons are terrible campaigners. Trudough got a pretty large minority so likely won’t be taken down unless he infuriates Quebec. They’re easy to placate, just keep sending them money. What will be interesting is if seperation gets some more traction out West?

Right now I am having a dream about Quebec, and everything West and North of North Bay leaving.

The West can survive very well without Ontario, Ontario is a FOURTH or FIFTH World Country on it's own.
October 22nd, 2019, 08:24 AM
terrym

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Right now I am having a dream about Quebec, and everything West and North of North Bay leaving.

The West can survive very well without Ontario, Ontario is a FOURTH or FIFTH World Country on it's own.

Yeah. Problem is Alberta is landlocked and held hostage by its neighbors. Not that simple. They would have to join the USA. Never gonna happen. This election confirms Canadians will support liars, ethically bankrupt governments and don’t care about debt. It’s a democracy and they won. Every man for himself from this day on.
F the government. Do whatever you can get away with and pay cash.
October 22nd, 2019, 08:52 AM
Snowwalker

Quote:

Originally Posted by terrym

Yeah. Problem is Alberta is landlocked and held hostage by its neighbors. Not that simple. They would have to join the USA. Never gonna happen. This election confirms Canadians will support liars, ethically bankrupt governments and don’t care about debt. It’s a democracy and they won. Every man for himself from this day on.
F the government. Do whatever you can get away with and pay cash.

Any place in BC North of Hope BC has been feeling very Alienated by the Federal, and Provincial Governments for Decades. Northern Quebec is in a similar state of mind.

If the Oil and Gas Provinces leave, they can set their own Regulations and Canada will have to pay full market price for Natural Gas, and it's oil. If Ottawa don't like it, they can just sit and spin..I am sure you remember that phrase.

It may surprise you to know that many people in AB, SK, MB feel they have more in common with the States then with Ontario and Quebec.

The amount of Freight that is unloaded in western ports that has to pass thru AB, SK, and MB would make your head spin. The Freight can be unloaded in Western US ports and shipped thru the US, but this will greatly increase the costs. The increase costs come from longer distances, Custom Taxes and Duty, and Brokerage service fees to import into US, and then all the tax, duty and Brokerage fees to import it into Canada.

Just look at every thing that is made in China.
October 22nd, 2019, 09:44 AM
rick_iles

The village idiot showed his arrogance once again by speaking over Scheer’s speech.....this country is so screwed !!!!
October 22nd, 2019, 10:07 AM
mosquito

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick_iles

The village idiot showed his arrogance once again by speaking over Scheer’s speech.....this country is so screwed !!!!

Yep... and partnered with the NDP..... think Venezuela

And as expected #WExit is number 1 on twitter today...

https://twitter.com/hashtag/wexit?src=tren

I wonder what the immigration requirements will be?
https://twitter.com/JacCastilloBC/st...71569746759680

Quote:

P.S.

http://wexitalberta.com/

Quote:

P.S. 2

Hmmm.... wonder why the west would hate the east....

decades of taking money from them ... or just how the Quebec elite compare themselves to the rest of Canada... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8igrMJ9L4po
October 22nd, 2019, 12:45 PM
MarkB

What a disaster. I don't know which is worse ... a Liberal Majority or a Liberal Minority propped by the NDP.

These are the things that make me wonder if there isn't a better way:

- Toronto seems to decide which party will govern federally. I am from the GTA. Just too many ridings in downtown Toronto ... whether the Liberals or Conservatives win ... this just doesn't seem to be fair to those out West.
- I think Sheer could have done a better job. He simply talks from the script, and I don't see the same passion as other party leaders. People want to see passion and authenticity, we're all tire of the "script".
- Max made a BIG mistake ... yes he has his own views, but he shouldn't have jumped ship, he should have garnered support from his party. He has nothing now. PPC is dead, and BQ took advantage ... cost Conservatives ...
- Biggest surprise was NDP didn't do as well as I thought ... especially after the recent rally in Jagmeet's popularity.
- It says a lot when Canadians are okay keeping a government in power that has met so few of it's commitments, and is charged with corruption. I'm a bit disappointed that Canadians were so easily fooled.
October 22nd, 2019, 01:02 PM
LoR

We’ve been over the dynamics many times. What matters are seats. Nothing else. Do the liberals or NDP gives two craps about 2 seats in Alta they may or may not win. Or lose if they sacrifice them? Singh will care only about BC, ONT and QUE

Call a spade a spade. This is Ontario’s fault. Specifically the 416/905. No one else’s.

And we’ve seen this before. Between 2008 and 2016. When manufacturing went in the tank, when rural Ontario was getting crushed. When green idiocy just made it so much worse. And when by rights any sane person would have, should have booted an admin that had racked up a bunch of abuses, lies, brainfarts....Did the 416/905 think about anyone but themselves?

Ontario re-elected the Liberals in 78 of our 121 federal seats.....

And now, despite winning the popular vote. All those people in the west. Two entire provinces. Have no voice.

Their votes, rendered utterly meaningless!

The west already hated the East. And that includes us....

They will even more now.
And I for one hope they tear this country apart
October 22nd, 2019, 01:28 PM
trimmer21

From here on out,I'm keeping my head down and staying out of the political crossfire. Canada is now at a turning point. With a minority,anything can happen,but,I can see western separation and a US takeover of oil and gas as a matter of national security to protect themselves from hostile nations that Liberal-leftist politicians are very cozy with. For America,there is a "clear and present danger" looming on the horizon. I'm sure they've noticed a long time ago. Quebec separation with a strong BQ is also a very distinct possibility. Canadians have unwittingly (!?) created a perfect political storm. Let the shyte storm begin. I have my shyte umbrella ready.
October 22nd, 2019, 02:05 PM
MarkB

In Ontario, the Liberals received 25% more votes than the Conservatives ...... BUT!

The Liberals WON 220% more seats than the Conservatives ... the ridings need to change .... basically the liberals got 43 MORE seats in Ontario over the Conservatives because of 560,000 more votes.
Those 43 additional seats are the reason the Liberals got their Minority Government (Nationally the Liberals only have 36 more seats than the Conservatives)!

So we can say that 560,000 people, likely in the GTA, spoke for ALL of Canada. It is not fair at all. Toronto is so concentrated in terms of population, that it is easy to get a critical mass that basically creates an core that will only ever vote for one party.
October 22nd, 2019, 02:35 PM
Snowwalker

Got a buddy living out in Moose Jaw, SK.

His boss just dumped all the job applications from Ontario in the trash bin. Petty maybe, but an example of things to come.

I can see "Problems" with getting resources ( Natural gas?) to Ontario due to maintenance issues.
October 22nd, 2019, 02:40 PM
fishfood

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkB

What a disaster.

- Toronto seems to decide which party will govern federally.
- Biggest surprise was NDP didn't do as well as I thought ... especially after the recent rally in Jagmeet's popularity.
.

I said it the other day ndp goers from the city voted liberal to keep the conservatives out. As the ndp would not make their riding they simply voted libs and they never vote lib . It was a strategic well played election and and we already knew the ndp would loose seats for the libs .

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk
October 22nd, 2019, 04:17 PM
Goosesniper

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Got a buddy living out in Moose Jaw, SK.

His boss just dumped all the job applications from Ontario in the trash bin. Petty maybe, but an example of things to come.

I can see "Problems" with getting resources ( Natural gas?) to Ontario due to maintenance issues.

Newfoundlanders need not apply either. They showed their true colours as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
October 22nd, 2019, 04:42 PM
mosquito

A clear mandate, climate change and guns off the street..... talking points as usual
https://www.ctvnews.ca/video?cid=sm%...ource=facebook

... clear mandate? they got 33.06% of the votes and the Conservatives 34.4 ... a couple hundred thousand more votes FOR the Conservatives but he will take that as a mandate.... actually I guess he does... side with the other socialists, ignore the west and only suck up to the East, Quebec and GTA.... I am sure he can do that! Divide the country, create anger and frustration and lie to get re-elected again .... the Liberal way.

Quote:

P.S.

I see in the business news that Husky is laying off people today in Calgary..... a message?
October 22nd, 2019, 08:41 PM
fishermccann

I have to ask LoR, why do you " hope they tear this country apart"? Plan on leaving soon? No friends or family left behind? NWO ?
October 23rd, 2019, 03:52 AM
LoR

Because it’s past time G.

Moe served noticed first thing yesterday morning. Kenny served notice last night. Kenny while politically correct about did not “really” mince words.

Anybody that didn’t see this coming must live with their head in the sand, be so un-educated and so lacking in common sense, or so self centred that they don’t care. How could anybody not see this coming? And if they did, did they think the West would just roll over and take it mutely?

Sound like the GTA?

Because we’ve seen this before. Following 2008. When the loss of manufacturing was crushing rural Ontario and green idiocy was making it far worse. When the abuses, lies, brainfarts were really piling up after two terms. When for the next straight two elections it was a sea of blue. Except for one pocket of red. Did they think of anyone but themselves? Care about what things were doing to anyone else?
Obviously not!

And the fact they have done it again, but this time to the West, they either didn’t learn, or don’t care.

The rest of Ontario doesn’t have the resources to follow through. So empty threats really. Alberta and the West?
Can tear at the fabric of this once great nation. Good, it’s needed.

my message to the GTA?

you voted for this, you did this. No matter what comes, no matter how bitter, divided, polarized we become. No matter what the west does, be that separate, cut off equalization, opt out of CPP,. Whatever.

you voted for this.
remember that.
October 23rd, 2019, 04:37 AM
Snowwalker

LoR, I think the phrase you are looking for is "Taxation without Reputation ".

You can also be sure that there will be some form of the 2nd Amendment, and rights to self defense written in to the Articles of what ever Documents used to form the Republic, Commonwealth or what ever it's called.

You know that Northern Quebec will not want to stay with Canada. Possibly Northern Ontario with the backing and security of the western Provinces would leave as well. Canada could be reduced to Southern Ontario, Southern Quebec and the Maritime Provinces.
October 23rd, 2019, 06:20 AM
Stu

"Canada could be reduced to Southern Ontario, Southern Quebec and the Maritime Provinces."
You mean Upper Canada,Lower Canada and the Maritime Provinces that started us out.
That would be historically ironic. Think about all of the big promises it took to get the rest to join.
I hope we can survive as a country long enough to get it right.
Stu
October 23rd, 2019, 06:32 AM
Sprite

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowwalker

LoR, I think the phrase you are looking for is "Taxation without Reputation "

I think you mean Taxation without Representation.
October 23rd, 2019, 07:33 AM
LoR

Boston tea party. Enough said. While I don’t think it will go that far, and actual separation I think will be a measure of last resort for the West. Anything else is up for grabs, and no matter what the East loses, and the divides, the polarization gets worse. That’s permanent now.

Amazes me the GTA didn’t learn Still doesn’t understand Newton’s law, why the Trumps, why the Fords. Why the Brexits and Wexits.

Whether it’s “let them eat cake” or Tea parties. Whether chocolate ice cream, vanilla or strawberry. It’s still ice cream.

And won’t learn from history. Whether 2008-2016, the 1700 or 1800 hundreds.
October 23rd, 2019, 08:12 AM
Snowwalker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprite

I think you mean Taxation without Representation.

Auto-correct strikes again..:ashamed:
October 23rd, 2019, 10:22 AM
mosquito

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprite

I think you mean Taxation without Representation.

On the #Wexit posts I noticed (if true) when you look at the population of the west and the number of seats in the East there is a definite difference, the west should have above 50% more seats based on the population or the East the number reduced by atleast 1/3.

Think the Trudeau will declare martial law like his daddy?
October 23rd, 2019, 11:05 AM
Snowwalker

Quote:

Originally Posted by mosquito

Think the Trudeau will declare martial law like his daddy?

Who is he going to use to enforce it?
There are enough police to kick in my door, but not enough to kick in all the doors they would need to. Also using the Military or Police presents a problem, because not all members of either force would see the order as a lawful one.

During the FLQ Crisis there was a small Terrorist group, which is very different then whole Populations of Provinces.
Members of the Military and Police would desert leaving holes not just in the ranks, but all up and down the chain of command.

Playing for the red team here:
Moving troops and Equipment through Northern Ontario creates a bottle neck which can be slammed shut by the loss of a few bridges.

Trudope declaring Martial law and trying to control Separatists groups and areas by force would be very bad. The Damage to him, his party, and Canada both Domestic and in Foreign circles would be a total disaster.

If he tried to use the military against Separatists, you can be very sure that aid to "The Rebels " would come north from the states pretty quick. The last thing the US would want is an unstable and warring country stretching the length of it's Northern Border. Who would assist the Liberals?

Only two Country have the resources, but they do lack in Maritime assets. The first Chinese or Russian Military boot that touches Canadian soil would likey trigger the complete Annexation of Canada by the US.
October 23rd, 2019, 11:40 AM
MarkB

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoR

Because it’s past time G.

Moe served noticed first thing yesterday morning. Kenny served notice last night. Kenny while politically correct about did not “really” mince words.

Anybody that didn’t see this coming must live with their head in the sand, be so un-educated and so lacking in common sense, or so self centred that they don’t care. How could anybody not see this coming? And if they did, did they think the West would just roll over and take it mutely?

Sound like the GTA?

Because we’ve seen this before. Following 2008. When the loss of manufacturing was crushing rural Ontario and green idiocy was making it far worse. When the abuses, lies, brainfarts were really piling up after two terms. When for the next straight two elections it was a sea of blue. Except for one pocket of red. Did they think of anyone but themselves? Care about what things were doing to anyone else?
Obviously not!

And the fact they have done it again, but this time to the West, they either didn’t learn, or don’t care.

The rest of Ontario doesn’t have the resources to follow through. So empty threats really. Alberta and the West?
Can tear at the fabric of this once great nation. Good, it’s needed.

my message to the GTA?

you voted for this, you did this. No matter what comes, no matter how bitter, divided, polarized we become. No matter what the west does, be that separate, cut off equalization, opt out of CPP,. Whatever.

you voted for this.
remember that.

Not all of us in the GTA voted for this. But the electoral system is not fair, needs to change.
October 23rd, 2019, 12:08 PM
glen

Wexit will happen
October 23rd, 2019, 12:24 PM
LoR

True Mark. Very true. Even while rural Ont was getting crushed. There were those who saw clearly.

But at times like this all have are generalities. Collectively this is Ontario’s mess. Of the 121 seats, 78 went red. Specifically, the gta collectively.

I have stayed out of discussions on FB, where some are also claiming/blaming the Unions. Once again running attack ads. “Ford cuts”, efforts to link them etc. All very true. Interfering once again with politics. But, for once the other side fought fire with fire. While the energy sector did not really go after JT, they did run lots of ads trying to remind people that are tech is the cleanest, “imagine if we led the way, sold our tech et “

Ironic
The left strategy through out the campaign was one of fear and division.

I’m out of words ( lol) and out of patience/tolerance. Especially given what the GTA did to Rural Ont. I guess once wasn’t enough.

Whatever comes and none of us can see the future. This is on the GTA. They voted for this. They had best remember and be taught a painful lesson
October 23rd, 2019, 12:58 PM
Snowwalker

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkB

Not all of us in the GTA voted for this. But the electoral system is not fair, needs to change.

Yes we will remember the "Rebel Supporters" in Enemy Territory..:joker:
October 23rd, 2019, 01:39 PM
Snowwalker

As I sit here Meditating on Yavin 4( Napping in my bunk).

I can see Future Historians listing one of the major triggers for the Civil unrest, being the large numbers of Immigrants fleeing conflict and corruption, being placed in specific a Urban center by a corrupt Government in a bid to remain in power.
October 23rd, 2019, 02:20 PM
SongDog

I'm gonna message Trump on Twitter and see if he will buy Alberta and Sask, Then I'll move LOL

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk
October 23rd, 2019, 06:39 PM
fishfood

Trudeau also changed the game this year to allow votes from over seas... and immigrants that showed they had a Canada address and I'd??? This for sure got alot of red votes . Up to 300 thousand canadians were able to over seas this year for the first time last I heard there was 32 thousand votes that was the last number I heard. Guess where most of those votes would of to ??? Any guesses lol.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk
October 23rd, 2019, 07:10 PM
73hunter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Who is he going to use to enforce it?
There are enough police to kick in my door, but not enough to kick in all the doors they would need to. Also using the Military or Police presents a problem, because not all members of either force would see the order as a lawful one.

During the FLQ Crisis there was a small Terrorist group, which is very different then whole Populations of Provinces.
Members of the Military and Police would desert leaving holes not just in the ranks, but all up and down the chain of command.

Playing for the red team here:
Moving troops and Equipment through Northern Ontario creates a bottle neck which can be slammed shut by the loss of a few bridges.

Trudope declaring Martial law and trying to control Separatists groups and areas by force would be very bad. The Damage to him, his party, and Canada both Domestic and in Foreign circles would be a total disaster.

If he tried to use the military against Separatists, you can be very sure that aid to "The Rebels " would come north from the states pretty quick. The last thing the US would want is an unstable and warring country stretching the length of it's Northern Border. Who would assist the Liberals?

Only two Country have the resources, but they do lack in Maritime assets. The first Chinese or Russian boot that touches Canadian soil would likey trigger the complete Annexation of Canada by the US.

Quite the imagination you’ve got there Snow 😁
October 23rd, 2019, 10:04 PM
Snowwalker

Quote:

Originally Posted by 73hunter

Quite the imagination you’ve got there Snow 😁

Where do you see Imagination.
October 23rd, 2019, 10:34 PM
mosquito

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Who is he going to use to enforce it?
There are enough police to kick in my door, but not enough to kick in all the doors they would need to. Also using the Military or Police presents a problem, because not all members of either force would see the order as a lawful one.

During the FLQ Crisis there was a small Terrorist group, which is very different then whole Populations of Provinces.
Members of the Military and Police would desert leaving holes not just in the ranks, but all up and down the chain of command.

Playing for the red team here:
Moving troops and Equipment through Northern Ontario creates a bottle neck which can be slammed shut by the loss of a few bridges.

Trudope declaring Martial law and trying to control Separatists groups and areas by force would be very bad. The Damage to him, his party, and Canada both Domestic and in Foreign circles would be a total disaster.

If he tried to use the military against Separatists, you can be very sure that aid to "The Rebels " would come north from the states pretty quick. The last thing the US would want is an unstable and warring country stretching the length of it's Northern Border. Who would assist the Liberals?

Only two Country have the resources, but they do lack in Maritime assets. The first Chinese or Russian boot that touches Canadian soil would likey trigger the complete Annexation of Canada by the US.

Yes, true but Trudeau rounded up many that had nothing to do with the FLQ, given the Trudeau's actions any terrorist attack could be used as provocation based on the small scale of the acts and the governments reactions...

Atleast significant portions might be taken or "protected" by the US, but like Crimean and Georgia and the Ukraine Canada is outside the region of influence by Russia, .. but there has been some Russians in the America's so .... not impossible.
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...iral-says.html

China has the manpower but is too busy creeping it's territory in the China sea and acquiring Philippine and other countries territory so they aren't likely to push past their creeping invasion that far..... in the role of Private Security Companies or Consultants possibly though in Canada ....we know the on Lib MP has participated in anti-democractic Hong Kong protests... not impossible but it would depend on if they saw the chance to keep some of what they "helped" I think.

I would say Trudeau could call on Cuba, their military has been providing mercenaries for probably 40+ years in Angola and Central and South America and tens of thousands of deaths (and is significantly larger than Canada's) .... more possible, UN and the Arab states.... NATO states is a bigger possibility ... France, Turkey.... yeah they might back up the current gov't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_...y_Armed_Forces
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Armed_Forces

The Canadian commanders seeing those groups coming (even if gov't sanctioned) are likely to ????? maybe request US aid?... imagine a National Guard crossing the border to protect pipelines or citizens... backed up or possibly followed by a division or two of regulars if their influence isn't enough.

Armed revolts aren't unheard of in Canada but the elephant in the closet is the US... side with separatists?... side with the gov't in power?... a couple divisions would make small work of either side that was picked... Apaches and Strykers and throw in a few Predator drones would be a quick decider for sure, it would all depend on public opinion, peaceful protest being squashed etc.... I mean Canada electing PM black faced silly socks is getting some US play time and not in a good way.

By the next election (IF it is in 4 years) we may see a very different Canada (s), my bet is no confidence vote by April, NDP will push hard for its agenda and if that crashes they will likely see a chance to steal more seats so may bring the gov't down. Depends on how hard they push for their agenda... I am betting arrogant clueless juggernaut going THEIR forward... cliff or no cliff!

Quote:

Historical content

A Right to Arms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nfYCg5qKPc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Where do you see Imagination.

I see it, a closed mind see's no possibilities other than what it wants,seems like you've thought about it more than PM black faced silly socks has given his "mandate" speech. When we see some arrests of TheRebel and other media and political Wexit and Qexit (?) fans... time to buy bottled water and canned good, stock up on meds and .......................
October 24th, 2019, 05:54 AM
Snowwalker

Mosquito you are thinking that China or Russia ( States too)would use it's Military.

Except for maybe a couple Advisers from the Executive branch and Military, the US would support the west with materials. Most the Oil produced is already going to the States, so not much will change there. What will change is that there will no longer be Royalties and taxes being paid to Ottawa. With about 2.2 BILLION less in just Royalties alone, Trudupe's Government is going to be hard pressed to pay it's bill. Then there also the money from taxes.

So since they are VERY short of cash, China and Russia would "love" to invest in Developing Canada's Natural resources. Like the coal in NS, Uranium in Elliott Lake, and maybe buy controling shares in a few Companies..

They need money, they will basically sell their birthright for a few crumb of bread.

The west would have lots of money, no transfer payments, no royalties, no taxes sent to Ottawa. They already produce the grains and meat that China buys, and the Oil and Gas that the US buys. With the extra cash laying around, and with COMMUNISTS Governments buying up and taking over everything East and south of the Western Republic and Canadian Border. I put the question to you. Who do you think the States would see as their BIGGEST Military Arms customer?

Oh as for Nato, and the UN. NATO's charter prohibits it's members from sending it's troops to another members Country to interfere in civil matter.

As for the UN any resolutions would be automatically VETOED by China, Russia, and US.
October 24th, 2019, 09:05 AM
fishermccann

Just over half of the 68% of Canadians that voted ,did not get the party they wanted in power, and so now your talking about a civil war. What a crock. I am old enough to remember, 'let those eastern bastards freeze in the dark', enough said.
October 24th, 2019, 09:08 AM
mosquito

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Mosquito you are thinking that China or Russia ( States too)would use it's Military.

Except for maybe a couple Advisers from the Executive branch and Military, the US would support the west with materials. Most the Oil produced is already going to the States, so not much will change there. What will change is that there will no longer be Royalties and taxes being paid to Ottawa. With about 2.2 BILLION less in just Royalties alone, Trudupe's Government is going to be hard pressed to pay it's bill. Then there also the money from taxes.

So since they are VERY short of cash, China and Russia would "love" to invest in Developing Canada's Natural resources. Like the coal in NS, Uranium in Elliott Lake, and maybe buy controling shares in a few Companies..

They need money, they will basically sell their birthright for a few crumb of bread.

The west would have lots of money, no transfer payments, no royalties, no taxes sent to Ottawa. They already produce the grains and meat that China buys, and the Oil and Gas that the US buys. With the extra cash laying around, and with COMMUNISTS Governments buying up and taking over everything East and south of the Western Republic and Canadian Border. I put the question to you. Who do you think the States would see as their BIGGEST Military Arms customer?

Oh as for Nato, and the UN. NATO's charter prohibits it's members from sending it's troops to another members Country to interfere in civil matter.

As for the UN any resolutions would be automatically VETOED by China, Russia, and US.

True, the financial and technical take over is already rolling along from China with people happily buying tech from Huawai and our gov't (while the rest of the world rates them as a security risk) ignores the reality and uses their tech in 5G wireless and people happily by Lenovo computers (atleast 3 times I know of they had built in viruses new out of the box). I woundn't have been too surprised China if submitted a plane for the CF-18 replacement application, guess they didn't want to release too much info. or wrong hemisphere???

The thread headed down the martial law direction so that's where I was thinking first. Alot of Canada's military is based in the west and I was basing my thinking that they would side with their families and the people of the west. I mean even in the Chinese dictatorship massacre in Tianamin Square there were units that didn't move as ordered... and who knows what happened to those commanders. I had just watched the video (history above) by Jon Robson and got thinking the extreme case.

The financial would be the first step of course but I don't think Trudeau and his family fortune has even the slightest clue or care on the implications of running those numbers up and up .... well we will see where it goes. The west has a long nurtured discontent and has spent billions to keep Quebec happy (the reason a Quebec separation is less likely) and has truly been cheated over and over, just look at the population and number of seats they get too compared to other areas of Canada. The elitist globalists like Justlied Trudeau only care about power and their privileges and they seem to have a complete disregard for the people and often it seems even intelligent thought sometimes... but to not think about reality and possibilities is the road of the left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZHUhfmlzXk

Reminder:
1) Trudeau "missed" Alberta in list of provinces at Canada 150 event.
2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8igrMJ9L4po
October 24th, 2019, 09:53 AM
MarkB

Canadians are way too nice to start a civil war. We'd be using sling shots and then say sorry when we actually hit someone.
That's why government is able to get away with so much crap. We can't stand up to anything. We just "live with it" and go on our Caribbean vacation every year, heck, now we can even smoke pot to make it all go away.

There won't be any civil war ... and there won't be any Russian or Chinese boots hitting our turf. Not a chance.

All there will be is newspaper articles and blogs like this, which is worth as much as the toilet paper I just flushed down the toilet.

My only hope now is that there's enough resistance from the other parties so that nothing changes over the next 4 years ... no new taxes, no stupid policy changes.
I also hope the Conservatives find a way to get into power ... they need to find a passionate leader that is willing to let go of the rhetoric responses, and also find ways
to weaken the liberal base. I don't have the answers, but by the next election, they have to figure this out. Oh, and they absolutely need to fix the electoral system ... redefine
the ridings ... Toronto cannot be allowed to speak for all of Canada. The ridings have to be renormalized to current population distribution ... and also have a system where
the provinces can have more of a fair say ... like the electoral college practiced in the US.
October 24th, 2019, 10:26 AM
Fox

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Just over half of the 68% of Canadians that voted ,did not get the party they wanted in power, and so now your talking about a civil war. What a crock. I am old enough to remember, 'let those eastern bastards freeze in the dark', enough said.

The idea of the west leaving and Northern Ontario separating from Ontario are not new ideas.
October 24th, 2019, 11:41 AM
73hunter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Where do you see Imagination.

A civil war in Canada in the next few years ? Don’t think so ....interesting fodder for discussion but no more likely than me hooking up with a Playboy supermodel
October 24th, 2019, 12:04 PM
glen

I need them to buy my vote.
October 24th, 2019, 01:43 PM
mosquito

Quote:

Originally Posted by 73hunter

A civil war in Canada in the next few years ? Don’t think so ....interesting fodder for discussion but no more likely than me hooking up with a Playboy supermodel

The armed revolts are likely a thing of over 100 years ago and a different breed, the Canadian of WW1 and the hard working and "Toronto the good" has mostly long been replaced ..... well .... well this is the PM that lied, did black face, insulted vets and cut their benefits, embarrassed Canada repeatedly and raised taxes and still got re-elected ...
https://i.cbc.ca/1.3668898.146791259...e-20160703.jpg

That along with the Canadian that is allowed to defend himself, refer to video on history above.

.... but it can be an interesting discussion .... given an increasing antagonism by the Libs, like say Butts goes MORE insane as an assumed starting place.

Would the East allow a Czechoslovakia type separation or would they try and force them to remain....
Would the West put up blockades and declare itself independent or mildly whine and continue to get ignored....
IF the West declared itself independent, who would recognize it first? Allie with it? Allie with Ottawa? Who would Ottawa seek help from?
Would Quebec seeing the West getting stronger push for it's own separation (shooting itself in the groin financially)?
Would Trudeau side with Quebec and declare himself dictator for life in the People's Republic of Quebec? (referring to fav. Govt and admiration for dictatorship Trudeau has said)

Like I said I doubt this gov't will survive until Spring due to NDP demands and a non-confidence vote... maybe less if the RCMP can figure out a way to get around the Liberal blocking of the investigation (not likely). I also assume many firearms and rights won't survive until then too.
October 24th, 2019, 03:33 PM
Snowwalker

Quote:

Originally Posted by 73hunter

A civil war in Canada in the next few years ? Don’t think so ....interesting fodder for discussion but no more likely than me hooking up with a Playboy supermodel

I was not talking about Civil WAR in my original post. I was discussing the idea of Trudupe declaring Marshal Law. The various problems he would have if it was his plan to prevent Wexit or Qexit type events by the use of Marshal Law.
October 24th, 2019, 04:42 PM
mosquito

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowwalker

I was not talking about Civil WAR in my original post. I was discussing the idea of Trudupe declaring Marshal Law. The various problems he would have if it was his plan to prevent Wexit or Qexit type events by the use of Marshal Law.

Yes, and the direction I went was would they try to enforce, it how etc....

BUT

Back in the real world

People’s Party may have cost the Tories 6 ridings on election night
https://globalnews.ca/news/6071771/p...iler-election/
Votes for the People’s Party of Canada may have cost the Conservatives up to six ridings in Monday’s federal election, an analysis of election results shows.

Polling before the election showed the Conservatives were the second choice of about half of PPC voters, according to polling done by Ipsos, implying about one PPC voters in two would have voted Conservative if the party hadn’t existed.

“The data suggests that the Conservative Party would likely get around half of the vote from the People’s Party, understanding that for many people the People’s Party was a none-of-the-above vote,” says Sean Simpson of Ipsos.

Well if they voted PPC saying half is really questionable.... we know they wouldn't have voted Lib or NDP for the most part....so given 3/4 would have voted Conservative instead of the 1/2 they suggest then my guess of 10 may be pretty close
October 24th, 2019, 06:00 PM
73hunter

More seriously, one the topic of Wexit, Mosquito has asked how it would happen...and I guess you’d have to look to the Clarity Act ? A law from the Chrétien era that set out the terms and conditions on which Quebec might separate ?
October 24th, 2019, 07:16 PM
fishermccann

Nobody is going to separate from Canada. Sour grapes in the disguise of fear mongering. The voters of this country do not have the same vision of the future as you do, get over it. Fact. Many-many more people in Canada, voted left of center, than right of center.
October 24th, 2019, 08:16 PM
73hunter

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Nobody is going to separate from Canada. Sour grapes in the disguise of fear mongering. The voters of this country do not have the same vision of the future as you do, get over it. Fact. Many-many more people in Canada, voted left of center, than right of center.

And there belies the issue Fisher, a majority of the population voted for the side that has no intention of balancing a budget.

Do you see an issue with that ?
October 24th, 2019, 08:51 PM
mosquito

Quote:

Originally Posted by 73hunter

And there belies the issue Fisher, a majority of the population voted for the side that has no intention of balancing a budget.

Do you see an issue with that ?

They also voted for a party that lied and spent $50,000,000,000+ more than their "truth" ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY3I2ewuxQ0
The whole cuts are bad idiocy is an established CBC / Toronto Star "truth" if you look at the media.

That distribution of votes is also what we see being used in Wexit right now... the our votes don't count being high lighted!
https://www.facebook.com/stopJustin/...61057090834401
October 25th, 2019, 05:25 AM
LoR

G, you are seriously misjudging the situation out West. Seriously misjudging the mood out West. You can be forgiven though because you live in an insulated, pampered bubble.

In all likely hood ( don’t know for sure, purely supposition this). It’s worse, than the worst here, 2008-2011. I was not aware for example that suicide and divorce are spiking as well. I don’t recall any talking head screaming about that when we went in the ter.
And while the GTA was also insulated from the worst given there’s a wide variety of industry. For all intents and purposes the West is highly reliant on the Energy sector.

All that said, “Yep”, it’s highly unlikely they will actually separate. They will still be landlocked......

But the mood is such, that if “snowflakes” and “cityiots” continue to stick their heads in the sand, think only of themselves. It’s possible I suppose.

That said, there is tons they can do. Beyond simply cutting off your welfare ( equalization)...they can opt out of CPP. They are wealthy, have a younger workforce. To counter that, you would have to be taxed almost $500 more per year....

Jesus. You also need lessons in how to read people. Thankfully Kenny is sane and won’t go the separation route. He’s said as much. But watch his pressers. Check his tone, his body language. The lack of rhetoric, the lack of grandstanding and acting. Say as opposed to the clown in Ottawa, Wynne, Ford and more. Think also of the pressure he is under from his own supporters to separate. 30-50% of Albertans wanted to separate before the election.

he is deadly serious.

And yes, I am presently shopping, looking to move out west. But BC not Alberta.

So, no, unlike most in the gta, no conflict of interest here. They might hate me more :) can’t wait for the day ( hopefully) I leave the crap hole the GTA and the people in it have become even further away
October 25th, 2019, 05:47 AM
Badenoch

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Nobody is going to separate from Canada. Sour grapes in the disguise of fear mongering. The voters of this country do not have the same vision of the future as you do, get over it. Fact. Many-many more people in Canada, voted left of center, than right of center.

Yup. They aren't going anywhere. Alberta has been yapping off about separation since the 80's. There have been various several western separation/independence parties and the best they've done is to elect one MLA in the 80's in a by-election who was defeated in a general election a few months later.

When oil is going good in Alberta it's big trucks, big hats and big guns all round. When it's not they whine that everything is Eastern Canada's fault.
October 25th, 2019, 08:24 AM
LoR

Which is exactly why I hope Kenny tears at the fabric. Beyond obvious there are people that need to be taught painfull lessons.

If you knew your history Badenoch, their yapping which did begin in the 80s, came as a result of PET and the NEB.....

Being a commodity, Yep, they are susceptible to price fluctuations. And yes, when it goes against them segments historically bellyaches. Never before in history has 70% of the population voted as a single voice, as they did Monday. Never, ever...anywhere.

Never before though, has that pain, largely been as a result of federal policy. Never before because pampered citizens who can’t see beyond the end of their noses voted for it.

I’ve read many sympathetic East Coasters trying to offer “empathy”. We get it Alberta, we’ve been there when Ottawa shut down the fisheries. For years we put food on their tables. And.....
Difference being, the fisheries didn’t collapse because selfish, pampered people shut them down.

Northern Ontario can relate some to, when the lumber markets went south. The blind, pampered citizens of the GTA did what exactly?

You, like so many others need a wake up call.
October 25th, 2019, 08:39 AM
rick_iles

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoR

Which is exactly why I hope Kenny tears at the fabric. Beyond obvious there are people that need to be taught painfull lessons.

If you knew your history Badenoch, their yapping which did begin in the 80s, came as a result of PET and the NEB.....

Being a commodity, Yep, they are susceptible to price fluctuations. And yes, when it goes against them segments historically bellyaches. Never before in history has 70% of the population voted as a single voice, as they did Monday. Never, ever...anywhere.

Never before though, has that pain, largely been as a result of federal policy. Never before because pampered citizens who can’t see beyond the end of their noses voted for it.

I’ve read many sympathetic East Coasters trying to offer “empathy”. We get it Alberta, we’ve been there when Ottawa shut down the fisheries. For years we put food on their tables. And.....
Difference being, the fisheries didn’t collapse because selfish, pampered people shut them down.

Northern Ontario can relate some to, when the lumber markets went south. The blind, pampered citizens of the GTA did what exactly?

You, like so many others need a wake up call.

Good post !!:thumbup:
October 25th, 2019, 08:46 AM
MarkB

It doesn't matter what we think ... there's only one golden rule to follow. The government must reflect what the will of the average Canadian, selected through a fair democratic process.
I do not believe the average will of the Canadians is reflected in this outcome, and it is because the ridings are not fairly distributed. They are heavily concentrated in areas that prefer a particular party ... which is not democratic at all.

Fix the electoral system!
October 25th, 2019, 08:56 AM
rick_iles

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkB

It doesn't matter what we think ... there's only one golden rule to follow. The government must reflect what the will of the average Canadian, selected through a fair democratic process.
I do not believe the average will of the Canadians is reflected in this outcome, and it is because the ridings are not fairly distributed. They are heavily concentrated in areas that prefer a particular party ... which is not democratic at all.

Fix the electoral system!

If you remember the village idiot said 2015 was the last election before reform......just another lie, as it turned out ! Had he done what he promised, the outcome would have been much different !!
October 25th, 2019, 10:26 AM
trimmer21

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick_iles

If you remember the village idiot said 2015 was the last election before reform......just another lie, as it turned out ! Had he done what he promised, the outcome would have been much different !!

Hence,why election reform went into the tank.....quickly.
October 25th, 2019, 01:58 PM
Badenoch

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoR

Which is exactly why I hope Kenny tears at the fabric. Beyond obvious there are people that need to be taught painfull lessons.

If you knew your history Badenoch, their yapping which did begin in the 80s, came as a result of PET and the NEB.....

Being a commodity, Yep, they are susceptible to price fluctuations. And yes, when it goes against them segments historically bellyaches. Never before in history has 70% of the population voted as a single voice, as they did Monday. Never, ever...anywhere.

Never before though, has that pain, largely been as a result of federal policy. Never before because pampered citizens who can’t see beyond the end of their noses voted for it.

I’ve read many sympathetic East Coasters trying to offer “empathy”. We get it Alberta, we’ve been there when Ottawa shut down the fisheries. For years we put food on their tables. And.....
Difference being, the fisheries didn’t collapse because selfish, pampered people shut them down.

Northern Ontario can relate some to, when the lumber markets went south. The blind, pampered citizens of the GTA did what exactly?

You, like so many others need a wake up call.

It was the NEP actually not NEB and I recall it well. The sentiment in Alberta at the time was "Let the Eastern bastards freeze in the dark." I was born in raised in Northern Ontario and remember clowns like Ed Diebel and the Northern Ontario Party that wanted to make the north a separate province.

Ontario lost 300,000 manufacturing jobs due to poor energy policy in the 2000's. Unlike Alberta we didn't spend our time pissing and moaning about it or making phony threats to leave confederation.

If Alberta really wants to separate there is a process for them to do it. Get on with the job if you are serious or STFU.
October 25th, 2019, 03:03 PM
LoR

We didn’t piss and moan about? Lol.

At the very least were you on these forums? You don’t recall the howls through out Rural Ont. over hydro rates, while the gta stuck their heads in the sand...it was years before they started feeling the pinch. And then suddenly oh, yes it is getting steep. Let’s borrow money so everyone can pay less. There’s an election tomorrow don’t you know.

We howled plenty. At the time I was still onBay Street. Recall it all very well. Recall Leamington getting 250,000 in aid. Wine sippers in NoTL 75 million. And on, and on, and on. Seas of blue during elections, and one pocket of red. Oh and have you forgotten who did bail us out? When we were a have not..that’s right.

Alberta....

Self centered. Center of the universe cityiots.
The East Coast
Northern Ont
Rural Ont
And now the west.
All hate you. Where do you some of those names came from......

You need a painfull lesson. Thankfully, unlike the EC,NO,RO

They can do something about a bunch of ungrateful, self centered bellyachers. You see, politicians only care about votes. Obviously the GTA whines lots..
October 26th, 2019, 06:38 PM
fishermccann

'All hate you.'.....LoR.......Would you not be include as well, in all those urban voters you have ridiculed?
October 27th, 2019, 04:16 AM
LoR

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishermccann

'All hate you.'.....LoR.......Would you not be include as well, in all those urban voters you have ridiculed?

For myself, that would be too strong a word G. I grew up in the 416, raised my kids in the 905. Have a lot of friends there. Many of whom are liberal. Many of whom. Couldn’t vote Scheer, due to his pro life, anti LGT and ties to ult-right. But they also couldn’t vote JT. His record, his immaturity, his wedge issues. So they voted NDP.

On topics other than politics, still think it’s a world class city. But the world I used on FB. Was

Shame. I am ashamed of and for it.

and G your little guilt trip ( ridicules) has no effect. My friends read my FB post. Some don’t like what I have to say. Most know I’m “right”

its why for example, so many have finally come to understand First Past is broken. Why for example many do call “you” names. Like self centered, Cityiots,,center of the Unviverse, and more. And many do hate the the GTA

think only of yourselves. Can’t see that there is so much more to Ontario. Or Canada
October 27th, 2019, 04:35 AM
LoR

Its both sad and funny I guess that many on the left, can’t grasp why Ford won. Can’t grasp why Trump won. Can’t grasp why Brexit, and now Wexit. Thankfully there are sane heads running Alberta and that will only be a measure of last resort. And not for maybe 4, 8, 12 years.

Whether the East coast, West, Rural or Northern Ontario. Whether Trump, or Ford.

What is the common denominator.

And with respect to the west, while they may not actually separate. The majority of the electorate either wants to, or has a serious hate on right now. And still there are those who don’t care.....obviously.

And are seriously misjudging the situation, and what they can do. And the consequences.
October 28th, 2019, 11:34 AM
MarkB

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick_iles

If you remember the village idiot said 2015 was the last election before reform......just another lie, as it turned out ! Had he done what he promised, the outcome would have been much different !!

Yup, and now we know why he lied about it, and didn't do anything. Get the votes, then do whatever he wants to stay in power. He doesn't care about Canadians ... it's all about keeping Liberal Party #1.
October 28th, 2019, 11:38 AM
MarkB

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoR

Its both sad and funny I guess that many on the left, can’t grasp why Ford won. Can’t grasp why Trump won. Can’t grasp why Brexit, and now Wexit. Thankfully there are sane heads running Alberta and that will only be a measure of last resort. And not for maybe 4, 8, 12 years.

Whether the East coast, West, Rural or Northern Ontario. Whether Trump, or Ford.

What is the common denominator.

And with respect to the west, while they may not actually separate. The majority of the electorate either wants to, or has a serious hate on right now. And still there are those who don’t care.....obviously.

And are seriously misjudging the situation, and what they can do. And the consequences.

The reasons all those you mentioned one comes down to one thing in my mind. People are SICK of political lies and BS ... and ALL those you mentioned, came in, took the bulls by the horns, and convinced everyone that there will be an end to the political BS (whether that is true or not).
October 28th, 2019, 12:08 PM
rick_iles

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkB

The reasons all those you mentioned one comes down to one thing in my mind. People are SICK of political lies and BS ... and ALL those you mentioned, came in, took the bulls by the horns, and convinced everyone that there will be an end to the political BS (whether that is true or not).

Can’t be too sick of the lies and BS.....the village idiot got back in !!!!
October 28th, 2019, 01:24 PM
LoR

While there are a handful of commonalties. Like what happens when regions go south and the elites ignore them, whether it’s “rural Ont or the rust belt”.

That would be, one of the more common Mark.

Sunny days
October 28th, 2019, 03:49 PM
MarkB

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick_iles

Can’t be too sick of the lies and BS.....the village idiot got back in !!!!

Nope, not when Trudope is promising free money to everyone. Socialism obviously trumps dealing with BS.
October 28th, 2019, 05:47 PM
LoR

But Mark. Isn’t it the left that has social values. Or it just virtue signalling with thoughts and prayers ;)
March 7th, 2020, 11:59 AM
mosquito

.... saw this coming....red wing birds show up on the bird feeder (sign of spring to me) and threats to topple the gov't or else by NDP...
https://www.rebelnews.com/canada_mus...ple_government
March 7th, 2020, 02:15 PM
Snowwalker

Quote:

Originally Posted by mosquito

.... saw this coming....red wing birds show up on the bird feeder (sign of spring to me) and threats to topple the gov't or else by NDP...
https://www.rebelnews.com/canada_mus...ple_government

Tried watching the link. They want more personal info then I have to give to buy a rifle..
March 7th, 2020, 02:24 PM
oaknut

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Tried watching the link. They want more personal info then I have to give to buy a rifle..

Really? I just clicked the "X" and had no issues.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk
March 7th, 2020, 04:37 PM
Snowwalker

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by oaknut

Really? I just clicked the "X" and had no issues.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

First time all I got was a log in/sign up option.

Read it. Sad news if this passes. My need to heat a house or get to work does not violate a human right.

Attachment 39787
March 7th, 2020, 04:53 PM
oaknut

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowwalker

First time all I got was a log in/sign up option.

Read it. Sad news if this passes. My need to heat a house or get to work does not violate a human right.

Attachment 39787

That's for sure, it takes a special breed to think this stuff up.

I wonder if China could manufacture a virus that would.....[emoji57]

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk
September 10th, 2020, 05:51 PM
mosquito

With all the usual LIbEral graft and corruption and spending no point in a new thread....

Morneau broke elections law ahead of last campaign: Commisioner
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/former-f...aign-1.1492016
September 10th, 2020, 06:22 PM
greatwhite

Maybe if we offer the Climate god Liberals they will be happy. :)
September 10th, 2020, 07:18 PM
Snowwalker

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwhite

Maybe if we offer the Climate god Liberals they will be happy. :)

Will not work. SACRIFICE has to have a heart..
September 10th, 2020, 08:17 PM
greatwhite

Oh crap am I a Liberal? It was insinuated on another thread that I don't have a heart. OMG I'm a Liberal. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Will not work. SACRIFICE has to have a heart..

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