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So I noticed that in some states you can hunt with straight sided rifle cartridges during shotgun season. (Ie 357 mag, 44 mag, 45-70 etc)
If you think about it, the ballistics of a 45-70 aren’t that different than a 12 ga slug. The pistol cartridges are even weaker. Arguably using a rifled shotgun slug barrel would put you in the same game as a 45-70 and that’s legal.
Anyone else like to see this here in Ontario during shotgun season?
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Never been a shotgunner for big game so would support this idea. I would opt for a muzzleloader over a shotgun personally, but range of modern muzzleloaders isn't so much different from straight-walled cartridges, so no real reason to exclude them. Start a petition to send to MNRF.
The idea has been floating around for a while, I suspect that the only way this may work is if there was a 3rd total capacity limit, the 3rd limit saves a lot of deer in SW Ontario, a 14rd lever gun in a pistol cartridge would be a big problem for the population.
I agree with you, pistol cartridges, straight wall BP cartridges, even maybe a list of legal cartridges but limiting the magazine capacity would be necessary too.
I do not see it happening though, hard enough to keep legal hunting.
Yup it’s called the rainbow trajectory...
It should be legal.
Well the shotgun limit stems from the migratory bird regs as far as I know and Ontario doesn’t allow it to be different but some states limit it for migratory birds but not for other animals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Besides, go to the northern part of southern Ontario (Mount Forest, Dundalk, Meaford etc) and there are rifle seasons without capacity limits already.
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It would be nice if legislators could understand the terminal velocity and ballistics. Particularly when manufacturers are now realizing the market and are developing cartridges and guns expressly for this purpose ( Win .350 Legend)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Stewart
Actually the 45-70 is almost identical to the 20 gauge saboted slug.
Yea, the whole .275 limit in parts of S/Ontario is an example. Your 270 vs my 30-30 and you win for distance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
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Downrange the 45-70 will eat a slug. Look up the Sandy Hook performance tests from the late 1800's when they were testing the cartridge for U.S. military use. At one mile!
You were saying :)
I'm afield with a .45-70 and a .44RM this week. I love big bore rifle.
I think your proposal opens a can of worms that might draw attention to the .275 rule too and we don't need that.
I would love to see the muzzleloader season changed to a black powder or primitive weapons season like many US states have that could possibly include any or all of the following: single shot firearms at least 100 years old, single shot modern rifles, rifles over a certain caliber (usua;;y over .35"), black powder cartridge rifles, muzzle loaders and or single shot shotguns without rifled barrels using slugs.
I have a '71 Mauser, single shot rifle in 11.15x60mmR aka .43 Mauser that I load the cartridges with black powder that belonged to my great grandfather. I would love to take it on a hunt, but I don't want to handicap myself during the regular rifle season, but would be more than happy to chance it on a second deer.
So far any time we got more in the past for new ,improved opportunities ,we actually lost (at least in WMU 80) so please ,NO.Quote:
Originally Posted by 35wailin
Late 1990-6 days controlled deerhunt.November.
Nowadays-14 day Controlled deer(one Nov one Dec)
Great-BUT You can APPLY and HUNT only ONE........
Then there is 3 municipalities in the whole WMU 80,which allows Sunday gun discharge,so about 80% of WMU 80 CAN NOT use any of the "added opportunity"-Sundays.......
Summary-end of 1990 -we had 8 MORE days bow hunting per season.
Now-please do not say,not everyone bow hunts-BECAUSE the gun hunters MUST pick ONE or the OTHER 7 days(can not participate in both).So,they gained nothing.
For them(us)there is 1 extra IFI day(Sunday ,if they hunt an OK to hunt municipality)and 7 (or 8)days lost from bow hunt.
Did i say NO...............
An old friend of mine bought a Marlin chambered in 45/70 to hunt in Ohio for there gun hunt. I would like to see Ontario go that direction in the shot gun hunt. I would be all over the .444 marlin
Dustin
Yup I would use my 45-70 for that .
I guess some big bores like 458wm would make the cut?.
Nope because many states have a limit in the case length allowed.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
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The .444 marlin with the LE ammo is a pretty legitimate 300 yard rifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by missy83
I am still completely lost on the idea of a "straight walled cartridge" season.
I use a "straight walled cartridge" during the regular deer season.
I totally agree, 444, 45-70, 450m don't perform the same as shotguns.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
I am aware of this but I think that it is a happy accident that the 3 shot maximum is used for the deer hunt. There are situations where a brown wave comes out of the bush, a dozen guys with 14rds each in a lever gun could be a potentially very dangerous situation and could completely wipe out deer in certain areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Stewart
Well to begin with there's the tag system so the deer population is safe from hunters. No law will affect what poachers do and I've heard those jackasses use 22LR head shots. :-(Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Also, there's no mag limit on manual action rifles in the rifle season anyway.
No, I think the 3 round limit on shotguns simply comes down to the fact it's easier to impose this limit on ALL shotgun hunting to match the migratory bird regulations.
Anyway, straight walled seasons seem to exist in other places so I don't see any reason why not to allow it here. I'd say I'd buy a rifled barrel for my shotgun but honestly, I'd just like to see deer. Last couple years out I've had almost no luck. I blame getting a doe tag. Every year I don't have a doe tag I see lots of deer.
Yes and no, there are tag limits but when you have a gang of 20 guys surrounding a small bush you can totally eliminate all the animals in that bush with 1 guy and 1 gun if you have an unlimited magazine. It is not the same as hunting with a rifle up north, the deer density is a lot higher in the bush that does exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Stewart
I hunt Eastern Ontario farm land, used to hunt Eastern Ontario big bush and I hunt SW Ontario farm land, there is no comparison to SW Ontario farmland for deer density in the small bush properties, and the number of hunters chasing them.
There is also a question of safety, if a deer is running through a field people tend to focus on the animal and forget the rest, 3 shots are generally shot quickly enough that the safe shooting window is generally kept, 14 rds in something like a long barrel 45LC lever action rifle could lead to an increase in shots towards farms.
I just feel like the 3 shot rule forced by the migratory bird laws have some benefit when it comes to the high density controlled hunts in SW Ontario.
That is just silly. I could carry an Enfield with 10 rounds if I choose to. I have hunted 82b most of my life and we have never shot, or been shot by anyone. Nor heard of that happening. You are sounding like you are the type who believes inanimate objects just jump up and kill things!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
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What is the population density and the density of hunters in 82B?Quote:
Originally Posted by rippin_355
We can use dogs for hunting in 66A but I have talked to a few people that refuse to use dogs now, especially in front of novice hunters, as they focus on the animal and not what is behind it.
You do you, that is fine, I do not feel like a 14rd magazine is a good idea for a deer hunt in SW Ontario.
I'm a bit split on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Personally, if you need 14 rounds, you are doing it wrong.
As far as the safety aspect, I tend to trust most of the guys in the woods up here, I've never been shot at or had a gun pointed at me, even by novice hunters. The truly old boys used to make me nervous because they relied on poor vision alone but after being in the vision only boat myself I'm no longer worried.
The thing I find to not make sense is that very few seem to practice anymore. Guys make a trip to the range to zero and call it good. Real shooting practice is virtually unheard of and off to the drive we go.
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I see tunnel vision way more than I would care to think about. When a deer jumps up everyone wants to get a shot, this is why our camp rule is that only the first person going in is allowed to be loaded. Sure the guys should be safe but there are always things that get in the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
When a deer is running through a flat field and you are popping away at it there is a chance that you do not notice the deer running in front of a barn, house, vehicle, the more shots someone is throwing at a running deer increases this risk. Everyone should know their shooting window, everyone should have a proper back stop, but should is a funny word.
My wife is a novice hunter, she has been going out for a few years now. I have pushed deer to her and she has had turkeys come in to an unsafe shooting area, let me tell you how happy I was that she instantly identified the problem and explained why the shot was unsafe, rather than taking any risk.
I think it does belong in shotgun season. Some others have floated the idea of allowing this in ML season, which I don't like.
I'm certain that the whole "shotgun-only" restriction came about so that people could;d hunt relatively population-dense areas with a repeating, modern firearm, but one which used slow, heavy bullets that would hit the ground fairly quickly. (And yes, slugs are bullets.)
Why not straight-sided rifle cartridges, provided they use a relatively heavy, slow bullet?
My only worry is that there will be a bunch of people who want to develop, and allow, a small-bore, high-velocity straight-sider with a nice flat trajectory. And I'm sure that would happen, thereby negating the whole purpose of a shotgun season.
Don't expect the people who pass laws to understand hunting let alone ballistics, when they see a lever action 45-70 they think it's a rifle where you can hit a target at a mile away. When in reality, hunting with 45-70 is probably safer than hunting with a 12 gauge slug, for both the animal and other people. Simply because I find it much more precise than a 12 gauge slug, I have a Beneli supernova with a rifled barrel. I tried FOUR different kinds of sabot slugs and they were all over the place even at 50 yards, and yes I used a shotgun scope and a lead sled.
Could add the restriction that the bullet must weight, say, 365+ gr...keep it from defying gravity for too long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie
I don't think your shotgun accuracy issue is normal. There is a problem there that is probably fixable. Dirty barrel, scope not holding a zero etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by MihajloSimsic
agreed, something not right with your gun if your accuracy is that poor
You would think that this restriction was because of safety yet you can use a 270 in these areas for coyotes run by dogs but not a 44-40 for deer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie
You could define the actual cartridges allowed, a simple list and that is that.
I wholeheartedly disagree with the first half of your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by MihajloSimsic
Maybe. But people would push hard if someone developed, say, a 7mm/140 grain combo at 2800 fps. People would want it BAD! It's evident to me that what most hunters have wanted, since special seasons started maybe 50 or 60 years ago, is to get in on the time afield, but without the additional challenges that were supposed to be part of the deal. Look what happened to archery: it went from primitive bows to modern bows and crossbows very quickly, which drastically decreased the level of challenge. Ditto muzzleloader season. If modern, inline, scopeable, 200+-yard-capable front loaders had existed in the 1960's, there never would have been a season set aside for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
You're right, but like some states do , their restrictions on their Traditional Weapons hunt keep it under control. Same can be done to clarify cartridge size and bullet weight etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie
Quote:
Colorado’s muzzleloader regulations are laid out extremely well and are very direct:
Only legal muzzleloaders are allowed during muzzleloader seasons;
In-line muzzleloaders are legal;
Must be a single barrel that fires a single conical projectile or round ball;
For deer, antelope, and bear, a conical projectile must be at least .40 caliber and a round ball must be at least .50 caliber;
For elk and moose, conical bullets must be at least .50 caliber and round balls must be at least .54 caliber;
From .40 to .50 caliber, bullets or round balls must weigh at least 170 grains;
If greater than .50 caliber, a bullet or round ball must weigh at least 210 grains;
209 Shotshell primers and B.O.R Lock MZ System bullets are legal;
Pelletized powder systems are prohibited during muzzleloader seasons; and
Cannot be loaded from the breech during muzzleloader seasons.
Only open or iron sights are legal during muzzleloader seasons. Sights using fiber optics or fluorescent paints are legal. Scopes or sights using artificial light, batteries, and other electronics are prohibited during muzzleloader seasons.
Sabots are prohibited during muzzleloader season. Cloth patches are not considered sabots. Bullet designs such as the Powerbelt are legal for use.
Smokeless powder is prohibited during muzzleloader seasons. True black powder or black powder substitutes are legal.
Electronic or battery-powered devices cannot be attached or incorporated into a muzzleloader during muzzleloader seasons.
I checked the barrel for any abnormalities (even though it seemed unlikely as it was barely used and relatively new) and it looked good as new. I also tried a second scope after returning the first one, maybe I just got unlucky with scopes. Anyways I gave up on it, only time I'd ever be able to use it would be if I were lucky to draw a shotgun tag.Quote:
Originally Posted by toddy
True it is a bit generalizing, but there really are people that are passing laws about firearms and hunting that have no idea what they're doing. Such as making AR platforms restricted and making the Mini-14 unrestricted, and this ridiculous new tag system that gives more loopholes for poachers just to name a couple.Quote:
Originally Posted by contaucreek
Shotgun-only deer seasons originated when the only shotgun projectile options for big game were Foster-style slugs or buckshot out of smooth-bores. Both of these arrangements have inherent range limitations which were considered safe for populated areas.
Since then innovation and technology have brought us sabot slugs and rifled shotgun barrels that have substantially improved a shotgun's effective range, while our rural areas have only gotten more populated.
Now we're discussing pushing the envelope even further, perhaps to the point where the original purpose and intent of the long-standing restriction might be exceeded.
Careful not to push the envelope too much.
The .275 caliber restriction was originally implemented so that military hardball ammo was not used in populated areas. After WW2 there was a plethora of surplus military ammo in 30 cal IE: 303 British, 30-06 Springfield etc.
Ok how do we start the ball rolling would it be through OFAH ,petition how
Yet there is no restriction for target shooting in many of those municipalities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cayuga Kid
Not surprising as the restrictions are a safety measure. Target shooting is usually a controlled shoot into a known backstop. It's the errant round shot during a hunting scenario that is the safety concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Target shooting at range is, lots of guys sight in their deer rifles in SW Ontario in an open farmers field, would not really be any different than shooting at a coyote.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
That aside, the rule is a stupid one, a 270 WSM is legal, a 9x19 is not legal for small game.
While this would be great for hunters and I am 100% behind it, realistically I don't see this taking off. We have a hard enough time getting politicians on-board with Sunday gun hunting. It wasn't that long ago around here that the City of Hamilton re did it's discharge bylaw. In the original draft of the bylaw, the area out near Stoney Creek was deemed a non weapon discharge area despite it being a bow discharge area for years under the previous bylaw (even comparing the new bylaw to the old one, Hamilton hunters lost a lot of space to discharge firearms due to the addition of terminology) because the average politician does not understand firearms or the responsibilities we firearm owners and operators have under the law.
Asking politicians to give us the ability to discharge centre-fire rifles should be a reasonable ask when you look at the numbers of the calibers involved but when the politicians realize that it would be high powered rifles involved, I think the logic would get thrown out the window and the rallying cry of the soccar moms (Won't someone please think of the children!) would be sounding off.
That was my understanding too - it wasn't intended to be a caliber restriction but rather the prohibition of the use of FMJ. Not sure why the original wasn't worded as such but apparently someone thought prohibiting the .30 cals and larger would be an easier way to do it. Also - the larger bore straight wall calibers weren't much in use at the time. Maybe a few old guys using .44-40's or .38-55's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cayuga Kid
There you have it, a straight forward answer!Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Because of the influx of 30.cal military FMJ ammo that became available, along with the 7mm mauser ammo after the war.
How is it straight forward?Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
You know how many people told me it was illegal to hunt deer with anything smaller than a .243, "was my understanding" is not evidence.
The thing is, the rule is stupid, has always been stupid, even if it was to stop the use of FMJ ammo it was only for small game hunting and was useless after the 223 came to popularity.
Some guys in Indiana are using WSSM cases necked to .358 to get around the cal and length restrictions.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
note: There is a pretty good article on the straight walls called 'Straight Shooters ' by Brad Fitzpatrick in the Jan/Feb issue of the OOD mag (page 48). Good historical perspective.
I read it, hate how they went along with pushing the 350 Legend, even though the comparisons do not line up with reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Are others, not allowed to have/state an opinion,? why is it that yours are the only opinions that are relavent ???Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
At what point did he say his opinion was the only valid one?Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
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Has nothing to do with validity!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Stewart
Relevant = def. : affording evidence tending to prove or disprove the matter at issue or under discussion
Look into the numbers, they are lying to sell a product and I hate that the OFAH writer seems to be going along with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
https://www.chuckhawks.com/win_350_legend.html
It is not my opinion, I like the idea of the 350 Legend, not the name, let it become a legend in its own time, but why do you have to lie about the numbers if this cartridge is so good.
No where did I ever once say that only my opinion is valid, not on this or any other post, everyone has their right to their opinion and any opinions can be openly debated.
Unless you decide the subject is like beating a dead horse .......... contradict yourself much???? Or you just doing the usual backpedaling that you do??Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
:goodstuff::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::)Quote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
The 350 Legend is junk for deer! It barely has anything over a 30-30 and by what's said about that caliber on the skillet thread....... just useless, shouldn't be used. Have to get something that blows a softball sized hole in a deer to kill it.... I[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
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Yep, except that the 30-30 has more energy than the 350 Legend, winchester lied about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
I absolutely get the gist of the OP's position with which,of course,to us,makes perfect sense,but,picture this. Thanks to the political climate from Ottawa and the leftist media,municipal councils are eyeing methods to eliminate firearms from their landscape. Now,here comes firearms/hunting advocates lobbying for counselors to allow what they see as artillery pieces inside their borders. Couple that with the requirement for provincial legislators to amend and re-write the FWCAct to change caliber and type sections amid screams of indignation and opposition from the usual suspects. Has anyone ever tried to push a chain?