When do ethics out weigh the law

I was talking with a fellow hunter at breakfast this morning. He was telling me that they had wounded a deer, it was hit in the hips, when they got to the deer it was 20 minutes after legal light, they said that becuase it was after legal shooting time they had to let it go...
I say BS, and was literally pissed to teh point that I could not finnish eating and had to leave or my mouth would of got me in trouble.

Was I wrong?
Am I the only one that would have put the deer out of misery....
To leave this deer with basically a broken hip is not only unethical but it is that kind of stuff that gets the antis ammunition ...

I am actually not even sure what the law is in a case like this..

What are your thoughts, should I have said OH great job ....I even asked if they at least went out this am to see if they could track and finnish and reply, "sure the yotes got to it"

As sad as it sounds, if it's after legal light, not much you can do, unless you cut its throat? Tough to imagine, but fact never the less?

Personally, I avoid hunting to the final minutes, for that very reason. A wound shot at that critical time is just cruel!

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Originally Posted by hockeymjt

I was talking with a fellow hunter at breakfast this morning. He was telling me that they had wounded a deer, it was hit in the hips, when they got to the deer it was 20 minutes after legal light, they said that becuase it was after legal shooting time they had to let it go...
I say BS, and was literally pissed to teh point that I could not finnish eating and had to leave or my mouth would of got me in trouble.

Was I wrong?
Am I the only one that would have put the deer out of misery....
To leave this deer with basically a broken hip is not only unethical but it is that kind of stuff that gets the antis ammunition ...

I am actually not even sure what the law is in a case like this..

What are your thoughts, should I have said OH great job ....I even asked if they at least went out this am to see if they could track and finnish and reply, "sure the yotes got to it"

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

not much you can do, unless you cut its throat?

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Cutting a throat in the dark can on a wounded antlered animal sounds like a recipe for a "hold my beer and watch this" moment. I had one instance about 7 or 8 years ago where we tracked a a wounded deer and came up on him after legal light was done. He was clearly pretty much spent but none of wanted to shoot in the dark or cut his throat. I ended up duct taping my hunting knife to a 6 or 7 foot tree branch that I trimmed up and than stuck him through the heart and lungs. He was dead 30 seconds later but did do some impressive kicking in those 30 seconds that would have made an up close and personal not so fun.

Not actually sure if that was legal but seemed the right thing to do at the time.

As to when ethics out weigh the law - my answer is - never with a caveat. The caveat being if your ethics require breaking the law than that is fine as long as you are prepared to accept the consequences of said actions i.e. pay the fine, do the time or whatever.

I don’t know but will say it obviously wasn’t a well taken shot. Same could have happened a half hour before and taken till after legal light to find the animal.

Species had it right - honestly where there is a will there is a way.

At the end of the day bad shots happen and you have to be willing to do what’s needed.

It’s inexcusable in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Species8472

Cutting a throat in the dark can on a wounded antlered animal sounds like a recipe for a "hold my beer and watch this" moment. .

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It was said "tongue in cheek"

I agree, do what ever it takes, we all run the risk of bad shots, and in saying that we should be prepared to do what ever it takes.....Once we walked up on a wounded buc and we were able to cut throat however he had very little strength left in him...but if you walk up on a deer and it has the strength to kick, drag its self, kick, then cutting its throat is placing your self in danger.

I do like species idea, but why would anyone carry duct tape with them hunting?

Not sure but my instincts and ethics would be to shot the deer out of respect and end any misery.

I know what I would have done and I wouldn’t tell anyone. My personal ethics would have trumped the law

Well if you can call the c.o. and report your case he / she may turn a blind eye to the shot if reported .

You shouldn’t let an animal suffer and if the only way to put it down is to shoot it, then that’s what you have to do. If you wanted to cover your butt you could take a video or picture of the deer when you found it to show that it had been shot. I find it hard to believe that no one on the forum has tracked a wounded deer and had to shoot it after legal shooting time.

That really sucks. I’m hopeful that no hunter shoots with the intention of abandoning their game in these kind of situations. I like what species did with the knife to the pole idea. A bad shot is a bad shot but I believe if you are willing to take the shot, then you are willing to finish the job to retrieve your game and not let it spoil. Shooting after legal would have been a mistake and attracted unwanted attention even though it’s ethically justifiable.

Sure a bad shot can happen, but guys that shoot deer in the back end because that's all they can see don't have much respect, so I wouldn't think they'd put much effort into going after a deer they shot as such..

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Originally Posted by hockeymjt

I was talking with a fellow hunter at breakfast this morning. He was telling me that they had wounded a deer, it was hit in the hips, when they got to the deer it was 20 minutes after legal light, they said that becuase it was after legal shooting time they had to let it go...
I say BS, and was literally pissed to teh point that I could not finnish eating and had to leave or my mouth would of got me in trouble.

Was I wrong?
Am I the only one that would have put the deer out of misery....
To leave this deer with basically a broken hip is not only unethical but it is that kind of stuff that gets the antis ammunition ...

I am actually not even sure what the law is in a case like this..

What are your thoughts, should I have said OH great job ....I even asked if they at least went out this am to see if they could track and finnish and reply, "sure the yotes got to it"

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You were most definitely not wrong.
If it were me and it was the only way to finish the animal I would have risked the charge. If I made the bad shot, I would deal with the consequences. I would argue a charge based on taking all conceivable actions to retrieve wounded game.

An axe works, blunt end down between the lookers.

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Either way more than one offense happened. Leaving the deer to rot I bet is a worse charge then discharging a firearm after dark.

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Originally Posted by overtheir

Well if you can call the c.o. and report your case he / she may turn a blind eye to the shot if reported .

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This would of totally been acceptable.

Calling the mnr to report it might have been ok. If they didn't turn a blind eye they may have sent someone if they had a resource nearby. Hopefully they would understand the situation.

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Im surprized more people woukd not just walk up and shoot it..I know thats what I would have done....hell I hit a coon or groundhog I back up if I see it not dead and run iver again buts me...

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Originally Posted by hockeymjt

Im surprized more people woukd not just walk up and shoot it..I know thats what I would have done....hell I hit a coon or groundhog I back up if I see it not dead and run iver again buts me...

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You are right it still should of been taken .
But calling to report if first could save alot of hassle if the ministry or cops show up.
I'm sure they would tell you to take the shot .

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when you get to ethics that is exactly it-- it often transcends the letter of the written law.
sometimes the most ethical thing to do means rebellion.

If I shot a deer, knew where it was and it was only an hour past legal shooting time, and it was on property where I had permission, I'd go ahead get the OK from the landowner and put it out of it's misery.

I'm sure folks on here have done it and just wont want the internet police showing up at their door.

This kind of scenario just should not happen. The crew I run have orders … We quit at sunset. Gives them time to climb down from their stand and exit the woods with enough light to see by. We do not use buckshot only slugs or sabots are allowed. I was with a crew many years ago that made those mistakes and swore that when I ran my own gang that it would be done right or not at all. To date we have never lost a deer, nobody got hurt aside from egos or liver damage and everyone has fun. As for that situation … I would have shot it and argue the point later.

Sorry but the law is the law . The co's don't give a dam about your ethics or mine.
A firearm not in a gun case after dark you will be charged.

The cell phone # of my local CO is on my contacts list to cover such (and more) situations that can and do happen in real life.
I trust he would have found a good way to avoid both the waste of the deer, and also having to explain to a judge why the right moral/ethical action was taken.

Don't sell all the CO's short. Many I knew would tell you to do the humane thing and dispatch the animal immediately. The difference might be whether you had to deal with a rooky or an officer who had been around for a while. This scenario plays out all to frequently with the bear hunt especially when archery is involved.

I'd take my chances with the co and put the animal out of it's misery.

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Originally Posted by JUDGE

Sorry but the law is the law . The co's don't give a dam about your ethics or mine.
A firearm not in a gun case after dark you will be charged.

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The law is the law but then you still have a wasted animal. Again you are leaving it to let the meat spoil. I believe this fine could be more. So I guess you need to figure out what is worse. Shooting after dark or leaving it to spoil.

Take the lesser option as they are both crimes. So basically if you follow the law you now break another and so on. So both options are breaking the laws it is your choice but hear it's a hell of fine to let it spoil. Take your pick your screwed either way.

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Best thing to have done is reported it. Take the lesser by reporting it what ever happens happen deal with the consequences.
Reporting it will show ethics and show you care . Also gives you leeway if they come and investigate things happen they understand that. Hiding the fact that it happened is not the right way to deal with it.
More than likely you are keeping the animal if it was reported. Even if a small citation was handed out or just a warning was given.

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Originally Posted by FishHog

I know what I would have done and I wouldn’t tell anyone. My personal ethics would have trumped the law

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Yup I agree. Common sense should prevail if it ever gets to court. I would inform my local CO because you know somebody is likely to report the shot and I think you're farther head to get out in front of the situation. I like the video idea John.

These guys got charged thousands of dollars for letting the deer spoil.
https://news.ontario.ca/mnr/en/2019/...uspension.html


It's a 250 dollar fine for unlawful hunting at night take your pick.

I know I would of taken the deer no matter what the consequences were. Reporting it only takes away the chance of being far worse.


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It's also a fine and agaisnt the law to allow an animal to suffer . So you know their is a list of charges for leaving it. Rather then doing the right thing.

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Originally Posted by hockeymjt

I do like species idea, but why would anyone carry duct tape with them hunting?

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Some of our pop up blinds get left out and in the late season it is not unusual for a fiberglass pole to be snapped or splintered when you arrive. Duct tape works good for making temporary repairs.

Best thing to do, is do what needs to be done and SHUTUP

Put the animal out of its misery immediately. Gun, bow, axe,knife, trailer hitch (works well) whatever it takes. Taking the time to call a co, landowner or cops only prolongs the suffering of that animal. If you need to explain that later. There will obviously be evidence of a bad shot. Shoot slugs only, make sure your guns dialed in, know your limits, and NEVER take a marginal shot. I know it happens, but this sort of thing is almost always avoidable.

Carry an axe when tracking a deer after dark

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Originally Posted by Species8472

Some of our pop up blinds get left out and in the late season it is not unusual for a fiberglass pole to be snapped or splintered when you arrive. Duct tape works good for making temporary repairs.

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Ok I was trying to figure out why. Great idea

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Originally Posted by fishfood

The law is the law but then you still have a wasted animal. Again you are leaving it to let the meat spoil. I believe this fine could be more. So I guess you need to figure out what is worse. Shooting after dark or leaving it to spoil.

Take the lesser option as they are both crimes. So basically if you follow the law you now break another and so on. So both options are breaking the laws it is your choice but hear it's a hell of fine to let it spoil. Take your pick your screwed either way.

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Playing devils advocate, if you let the animal die and pretend you didn’t find it, it would be much easier to get away with compared to taking an after dark shot that is heard and reported.

Personally I’d try and find a way to put the deer down quickly and quietly.


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Originally Posted by fieldtrip

I'd take my chances with the co and put the animal out of it's misery.

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X2. I've had it happen before. We know shooting after dark is a no-no and so is having an uncased firearm. I carry a gun sock in my pack for just such an event. I don't know any CO's or OPP PC's that wouldn't turn a blind eye in that instance as long as they were sure of the circumstances. I wouldn't report anything to anyone beforehand,though. Sometimes,the less said the better.

No exuse to let it run of and die because it was too dark

Like I already posted, the best answer to this question is not to let it happen in the first place !

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Originally Posted by longpointer

Like I already posted, the best answer to this question is not to let it happen in the first place !

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Well, obviously. But hunting is imperfect and crap happens.

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Originally Posted by longpointer

Like I already posted, the best answer to this question is not to let it happen in the first place !

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Were not all perfect. The odd time stuff happens. It is wild animal afterall. Sometimes they move when you didn't expect it.

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Originally Posted by longpointer

Like I already posted, the best answer to this question is not to let it happen in the first place !

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I suppose you have never lost a deer or animal, I have and it is not the greatest of feelings, but yeah happens, and no body is perfect, but the question is WHAT TO DO WHEN AND IF IT HAPPENS> I was curious to see if my standards are wrong by more experienced hunters than I.

BTW

My wife used to call me a perfect A__ Hole, then I quite drinking 27 years ago and now she just calls me A__Hole !!

NO ONE IS PERFECT, but what we do when we error makes us perfect...

If they could physically walk up to the deer after dark, there are plenty of safe ways they could have killed it without shooting it. If you're going to pull the trigger on a live animal, what happens afterwards is your responsibility.

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Originally Posted by kk1

Put the animal out of its misery immediately. Gun, bow, axe,knife, trailer hitch (works well) whatever it takes. Taking the time to call a co, landowner or cops only prolongs the suffering of that animal. If you need to explain that later. There will obviously be evidence of a bad shot. Shoot slugs only, make sure your guns dialed in, know your limits, and NEVER take a marginal shot. I know it happens, but this sort of thing is almost always avoidable.

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Slugs don't work in my bow or my buddies X-bow.

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Originally Posted by fishfood

The law is the law but then you still have a wasted animal. Again you are leaving it to let the meat spoil. I believe this fine could be more. So I guess you need to figure out what is worse. Shooting after dark or leaving it to spoil.

Take the lesser option as they are both crimes. So basically if you follow the law you now break another and so on. So both options are breaking the laws it is your choice but hear it's a hell of fine to let it spoil. Take your pick your screwed either way.

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Loosing a animal from a bad shot while hunting with a license is not a crime. Not sure where you think that's a crime considering it happens much to often. Discharging a firearm after dark is an offence, loosing an animal from poor shot placement is not. Harvesting an animal and then allowing it to rot is an offence, and is not the same as loosing wounded game.

So the scenario is we have a wounded animal on a shot which was wasn't very good which we have trailed to it's bed and found alive after legal shooting time. I have to assume we have our firearms unloaded and encased at this point because we are following the law at this point. I would back out and allow the animal to expire. The animal is still alive at this point so I am neither abandoning the meat or allowing it to spoil. I can always go back in a few hours to see if the animal has expired.

In order to clear my conscience, I would have to be night hunting (hunting after dark, uncased and loaded firearm after dark where there is game present and using a spotlight) in order to ease my guilt over this animal's suffering and I am not prepared to do that. Every year we hear of stories about guys who decide that their ethics trump the law ("duck hunters" who shoot 15 mins before/after legal time, "long distance" hunters abandoning crippled animals because they don't have fortitude to do proper searches, etc) and we rightfully condemn them for it. This situation should not be any different. It allows a bad element into our ranks which we don't want. We have a hard enough time as hunters portraying a positive image to the non-hunting public, allowing ethics to trump law just exasperates the Elmer Fudd image we don't want applied to us.

I have been in this situation. It sucks. I opted to follow the law rather than ease my conscience. By having to live with that decision made me do better because I never wanted to feel like that again.

My bad Canadian 30 I thought it stated it was left for the yotes. Leaving it for the coyotes would be letting if spoil.

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Originally Posted by fishfood

My bad Canadian 30 I thought it stated it was left for the yotes. Leaving it for the coyotes would be letting if spoil.

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

Loosing a animal from a bad shot while hunting with a license is not a crime. Not sure where you think that's a crime considering it happens much to often. Discharging a firearm after dark is an offence, loosing an animal from poor shot placement is not. Harvesting an animal and then allowing it to rot is an offence, and is not the same as loosing wounded game.

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It is stated they never went back in the morning their for pretty much admitted they let it spoil. Had to go back and re read so basically they left it for the yotes since they never went to look for it the next day. Yet found it wounded before, so in terms not going back for it is letting it spoil. It was not a deer they did not find . It was a deer that was found left and then never even bothered to go check it out the following day. That would be a crime.

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Originally Posted by fishfood

My bad Canadian 30 I thought it stated it was left for the yotes. Leaving it for the coyotes would be letting if spoil.

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Any wounded game not collected is left for the yotes, that's just what happens to the weak. It's not a crime to loose wounded game.

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Originally Posted by fishfood

It is stated they never went back in the morning their for pretty much admitted they left it spoil. Had to go back and re read so basically they left it for the yotes since they never went to look for it the next day. Yet found it wounded before in terms not going back for it is letting it spoil.

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It's still not a crime to not go back the next day after searching with no luck the night before...

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

It's still not a crime to not go back the next day after searching with no luck the night before...

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But that's not the case here is says they found it. So not going back the next day is a crime. Never finding the deer the night before is a different story. But they found it knew it was wounded then never bothered with it again.

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Originally Posted by fishfood

But that's not the case here is says they found it. So not going back the next day is a crime. Never finding the deer the night before is a different story. But they found it knew it was wounded then never bothered with it again.

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No it's not a criminal offence to stop looking for wounded game. Where in the criminal code is this crime written?

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

No it's not a criminal offence to stop looking for wounded game. Where in the criminal code is this crime written?

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They weren't looking for it ..

They FOUND it and LEFT IT ...

So it's not a crime to find a wounded animal that you shot then just leave it.

I call bull and it would be totally against the law to leave an wounded animal when its FOUND. You found it wounded then just left it there to never go back would classifie as letting a game animal spoil.


We are not talking about a game animal that is never found. They found it knew where it was and LEFT IT. big differences.

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Now if they went back in the morning and yotes got it that's a different story but it said they knew where it was found it ,left and never returned. Still equals left the animal to spoil it's all in the wording.

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I think I would have shot it. If you're worried about the legal aspect of it, then build yourself a campfire and sit with it until first light - assuming your firearm is cased. If it's not, well it's a bit too late to worry about legal issues related to night hunting. As far as the worry about getting caught - if that's the only issue, then carry a few squib loads or a .32 s&w auxiliary cartridge for after dark dispatches. Never used them after dark, but have finished a couple of deer with the .32. If you're going to finish a deer off with a knife, make sure it is a fixed, not a folding blade.

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Originally Posted by fishfood

They weren't looking for it ..

They FOUND it and LEFT IT ...

So it's not a crime to find a wounded animal that you shot then just leave it.

I call bull and it would be totally against the law to leave an wounded animal when its FOUND. You found it wounded then just left it there to never go back would classifie as letting a game animal spoil.


We are not talking about a game animal that is never found. They found it knew where it was and LEFT IT. big differences.

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To find a wounded animal after dark that's not dead and leaving it because you cannot shoot it, is not a criminal offense. Show us where this is written in the criminal code.

To those that don't want to attract attention with firing a shot after dark, what are you doing if it's a bow hunting situation? It's still breaking the law to have an uncased bow/fire after dark? But no one will know... I'll quote John Wooden "The true test of a mans character is what he does when no one is watching"

As I understood it, the guy shot from a tree stand, 18-20 yards, hit the deer from the top of the back and thru to the hip, deer had no strength on left rear side, deer went down but got up and dragged/hobbled itself away. They found the deer alive bedded some 20 minutes later, the deer tried to get up again but could not they debated about shooting it as no one felt it was safe the way the deer could still kick to cut throat, but they knew it was after legal light.
Yes they left it, and specifically said for the yotes. As I asked if they went back in am to see said no point the yotes would of got....

SHOOT IT...I had said yes it is wrong but sometimes we do the wrong things for all the right reasons.

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

To find a wounded animal after dark that's not dead and leaving it because you cannot shoot it, is not a criminal offense. Show us where this is written in the criminal code.

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The illegal part was they never returned thereby it was left to rot. Dose not matter if you didnt gut and take it home. They found it and decided to leave it and let it spoil . It was their decision not to go back after it would of expired. They knew there would be a dead deer in the morning but left it for the wild dogs to eat.

100 percent illegal to shoot a deer for the yotes. If you found the deer it is your responsibility to finish the job and take your deer . Its illegal to shoot and leave the deer without taking it . It's called you intentionally left it to spoil.

They shot the deer found the deer and left to never return to again . That my friend is considered letting an animal spoil.
Letting an animal spoil is plain and simple yes you deliberately left to spoil.

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It’s definitely an interesting thought exercise. I like the idea someone else had of setting up a camp and waiting for it to expire but then there may be a charge for camping and for having a fire depending where you are.

Personally I couldn’t abandon it outright. If it’s a season where bows are legal (some gun seasons are ONLY guns) then a way to break the law but act ethically while mitigating you’re legal exposure might be to go get a bow and come back and quietly break the law while putting the animal out of it’s pain.


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Leaving a wounded (not dead)animal in the dark is not a criminal offense. If it is a criminal offense then show us where it's written in the criminal code?

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

To find a wounded animal after dark that's not dead and leaving it because you cannot shoot it, is not a criminal offense. Show us where this is written in the criminal code.

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This is all F&W act - none of it is under the criminal code. Strangely enough, I looked through the act and can't find anything about abandoning game being illegal. But I'm pretty sure that it is. There is a difference between not finding game and abandoning it. The "abandoning" - that part is illegal - we've all frequently heard about charges being laid for it - but I can't find it in F&W act.

If the law were pursue charges for causing undue suffering to the wounded deer by not killing it, that is under the criminal act and the penalties are severe - including jail time.

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

Leaving a wounded (not dead)animal in the dark is not a criminal offense. If it is a criminal offense then show us where it's written in the criminal code?

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445.1 subsection 1 (a) - up to 5 years in jail

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[COLOR=#333333]wilfully causes or, being the owner, wilfully permits to be caused unnecessary pain, suffering or injury to an animal or a bird;'

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

Leaving a wounded (not dead)animal in the dark is not a criminal offense. If it is a criminal offense then show us where it's written in the criminal code?

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First paragraph posted in the link yesterday. I can not fine the set fine chart I saw yesterday as have no time at the moment.

They intentionally left a deer to spoil after it was hunted. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2451f87bf2.jpg

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If they were standing with the deer that could not move it was going to die . That being said they left the meat to spoil after it was hunted.
And as said now you have suffering of an animal, witch I also stated so their could be a string fines an offenses done.
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Originally Posted by hockeymjt

As I understood it, the guy shot from a tree stand, 18-20 yards, hit the deer from the top of the back and thru to the hip, deer had no strength on left rear side, deer went down but got up and dragged/hobbled itself away. They found the deer alive bedded some 20 minutes later, the deer tried to get up again but could not they debated about shooting it as no one felt it was safe the way the deer could still kick to cut throat, but they knew it was after legal light.
Yes they left it, and specifically said for the yotes. As I asked if they went back in am to see said no point the yotes would of got....

SHOOT IT...I had said yes it is wrong but sometimes we do the wrong things for all the right reasons.

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These guys are total scumbags. Who could leave an animal in that condition to suffer? Finish the job. You would think multiple guys could come up with some sort of idea on how to put this animal out of its misery. This is just plain sad if its true.

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Originally Posted by fishfood

First paragraph posted in the link yesterday. I can not fine the set fine chart I saw yesterday as have no time at the moment.

They intentionally left a deer to spoil after it was hunted. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2451f87bf2.jpg

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Those animals were harvested and in the person possession when they spoiled. They were not wounded animals left in the woods at night.....

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

445.1 subsection 1 (a) - up to 5 years in jail

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[COLOR=#333333]wilfully causes or, being the owner, wilfully permits to be caused unnecessary pain, suffering or injury to an animal or a bird;'

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Hunting game does not mean a wounding shot was a willful act to purposely cause undue suffering. Animal cruelty is not considered a bad shot in a hunting situation. Tieing up an animal and not caring for it is not the same as a bad shot wounding game while hunting. Leaving a wounded animal in the woods because it's after legal hunting hours is not a criminal offense. What's makes me laugh is how many think it's ok to shoot big game at night, even though it's very illegal to do so.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

This is all F&W act - none of it is under the criminal code. Strangely enough, I looked through the act and can't find anything about abandoning game being illegal. But I'm pretty sure that it is. There is a difference between not finding game and abandoning it. The "abandoning" - that part is illegal - we've all frequently heard about charges being laid for it - but I can't find it in F&W act.

If the law were pursue charges for causing undue suffering to the wounded deer by not killing it, that is under the criminal act and the penalties are severe - including jail time.

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Correct it’s F&W however you MIGHT also get a Careless charge if the cops get involved and want to push it.


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FWIW you could find a 6-10 foot pole and tie or tape a hunting knife to it and dispatch the animal at a safe distance.


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Originally Posted by canadaman30

Hunting game does not mean a wounding shot was a willful act to purposely cause undue suffering. Animal cruelty is not considered a bad shot in a hunting situation. Tieing up an animal and not caring for it is not the same as a bad shot wounding game while hunting. Leaving a wounded animal in the woods because it's after legal hunting hours is not a criminal offense. What's makes me laugh is how many think it's ok to shoot big game at night, even though it's very illegal to do so.

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Real funny to have conscience! If you screw up a shot do all you can to finish the job! You owe it to the animal!

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

Those animals were harvested and in the person possession when they spoiled. They were not wounded animals left in the woods at night.....

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Same rules apply I the woods. You cant just leave your deer in the wood that you found still alive. Then just say hey its after dark and I have no way to fully expire this animal . That you are fully aware that will die later and you just leave and forget about it.

That is your deer that you shot and found, but hey it's still breathing maybe tomorrow we can shoot another one.

So I can shoot a deer and find out it's to big for me to carry and I decided to leave it ??? That's ok then I didn't gut it was about to expire in maybe another 20 minutes.. But wait a minute it's to big and before it expires after dark its ok to leave it behind and spoil?? It was to big I didnt know how I was going to get it out the woods. But I guess that's ok no you would be charged for letting your meat or furr go to waste. It wasn't quite dead yet but I left maybe I will get the next deer.

All the same crap they left it to spoil doesn't matter if it's in the back woods or at under your shed when its plus 20 out. They were standing beside it and left it was not a animal they could not track .

This doesn't just apply for deer. But for all game furr barring animal. Either trapping hunting or poaching it's all the same

He shot a deer it was still alive but knew it was going to die. This is his deer and when he left it, he left his deer their to die and to spoil. What part dont you get you will get charged for letting your game spoil. That's his deer he found and left it to spoil plain and simple.

I cant just go catch a few whitties every day and throw them out back . I could be charged for that.



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Fish food how is it you seem to know all the details of this case when you weren't even there. You put alot of speculation into an incident you were not even involved in. By all means shoot or spear your big game at night if your not capable of doing it during daylight hours sounds reasonable. I'm sure your local CO will be totally understanding when meets you at your vehicle in the dark...lol

And if the deer had 14 points, would that change the outcome.?

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Originally Posted by kk1

Real funny to have conscience! If you screw up a shot do all you can to finish the job! You owe it to the animal!

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I have never put myself in that situation over 30years. If I ever did, I sure wouldn't continue hunting at night to finish it off.

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

Fish food how is it you seem to know all the details of this case when you weren't even there. You put alot of speculation into an incident you were not even involved in. By all means shoot or spear your big game at night if your not capable of doing it during daylight hours sounds reasonable. I'm sure your local CO will be totally understanding when meets you at your vehicle in the dark...lol

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I didn't speculate anything just going what was first posted.

And you thinking that you cannot be charged for leaving it,but he can.

It is a tricky situation either options are a no no but what do you do? Our debate is can or can you not be charged for it. That's between you and I your saying its false. A spoiled deer is a spoiled deer if you are fully aware of it and could of gotten it. And with this case they could of totally gotten the next day without any issues


The answer is yes..

Different stories same time no .

But when he willing walked away from HIS wounded deer to spoil he broke the law, if that deer does spoil.


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I think that the important thing is to put the animal out of it's misery, the meat going to waste is secondary. It's simple ethics and morals.

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

I have never put myself in that situation over 30years. If I ever did, I sure wouldn't continue hunting at night to finish it off.

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Congrats on your 30yrs! . If it did ever happen.I really hope if you got close enough you would at least have the respect/decency to finish it off with or without a gun.

Canadian man30

Bottom line and we sill settle this.
We know you would not have taken the dark shot . But would you not go back in the morning?. Yes its fine to leave it out over night, but wouldn't you go and recover it in the morning. ?

At most that would be a major priority in the morning for most people. This happens all the time and you get your deer, and yes you are right lol. That's totally legal lol.

The problem is here is that they failed when they decided not to go back and recover it in the morning. That's the problem. Especially when they knew exactly where it would be . If it can't move with a few guys standing around it ,it wont be far in the morning. Or in the exact same spot. Their mind was mad up before the even left the site that it was a goner .



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Originally Posted by fishfood

Canadian man30

Bottom line and we sill settle this.
We know you would not have taken the dark shot . But would you not go back in the morning?. Yes its fine to leave it out over night, but wouldn't you go and recover it in the morning. ?

At most that would be a major priority in the morning for most people. This happens all the time and you get your deer, and yes you are right lol. That's totally legal lol.

The problem is here is that they failed when they decided not to go back and recover it in the morning. That's the problem. Especially when they knew exactly where it would be . If it can't move with a few guys standing around it ,it wont be far in the morning. Or in the exact same spot. Their mind was mad up before the even left the site that it was a goner .



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I respectfully disagree. If your that close and you have help, finish it off. Dont let that animal suffer anymore than it has to. The 100yrd rule works well imho. Big difference if you havnt laid eyes on the animal. Then its best to pull out and come back in the am.

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Originally Posted by kk1

I respectfully disagree. If your that close and you have help, finish it off. Dont let that animal suffer anymore than it has to. The 100yrd rule works well imho. Big difference if you havnt laid eyes on the animal. Then its best to pull out and come back in the am.

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You are right .
I know I would of taken it when it was found. Even if there was no other way other than to fire off the last shot. . The suffering is the worst not good . Expire the dnm thing.

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Originally Posted by kk1

These guys are total scumbags. Who could leave an animal in that condition to suffer? Finish the job. You would think multiple guys could come up with some sort of idea on how to put this animal out of its misery. This is just plain sad if its true.

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Yes it is sad...I wish I had of called it in when I walked out.. and that alonenis starting to piss me off even more that I did not.

If a C.O. was to have been involved I think it's likely charges would have laid. How can they prove they aren't "trophy" hunters and shot at something that wasn't as large as they may have originally thought. In that case the optics of the situation changes, and they left a downed animal in order to preserve a tag. That is poaching.

Also, to assume without checking, that a coyote would get it in the 7-8 hours before being able to go back in the morning is ridiculous. Even in an area heavily populated by coyotes it's not a guarantee that they would get to it. Sometimes gut piles will go untouched for a surprising amount of time.

As hunters we have a due diligence of retrieving our quarry. Abandoning a downed animal is straight up negligent and ignorant.

If it was a 180" buck, the story would have likely had a different outcome. That is sad.

I'm thinking some here are correct, if it happened to be a really big rack the outcome would have been different. But making a poor shot just before end of legal, what should have been done is mark where it was and come back in the morning. If dogs got it so be it, if not you have your deer. For the animal suffering, would imagine this happens a lot, people just don't see it. How many people have waited till the next day or for several hours. The animal would have suffered for that time. You are to make reasonable effort to retrieve your game. What is reasonable. Years ago a CO who was hunting shot a deer tracked it for 6hours, until it passed my father. CO came along asked if he had seen a deer. Dad said yes, my son is tracking it. CO said well I wish him well and turned around, he had put in his effort. I track deer till almost dark when it crossed a river. Next day dad and I borrowed a canoe and found spot where it crossed. I carried on tracking it. My dad eventually shot it after it crossed back across the river. That deer would have suffered for many hours.

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Originally Posted by sabmgb

I'm thinking some here are correct, if it happened to be a really big rack the outcome would have been different. But making a poor shot just before end of legal, what should have been done is mark where it was and come back in the morning. If dogs got it so be it, if not you have your deer. For the animal suffering, would imagine this happens a lot, people just don't see it. How many people have waited till the next day or for several hours. The animal would have suffered for that time. You are to make reasonable effort to retrieve your game. What is reasonable. Years ago a CO who was hunting shot a deer tracked it for 6hours, until it passed my father. CO came along asked if he had seen a deer. Dad said yes, my son is tracking it. CO said well I wish him well and turned around, he had put in his effort. I track deer till almost dark when it crossed a river. Next day dad and I borrowed a canoe and found spot where it crossed. I carried on tracking it. My dad eventually shot it after it crossed back across the river. That deer would have suffered for many hours.

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We all know animals suffer from poor shots. Gut shots, liver shots, that sort of thing. These animals should be left overnight. Its the only way you have a chance for recovery. I use the 100 yrd rule, it really does work. Go 100 and pull out if you dont recover.

What your missing here is these guys knew the animal was going nowhere. They could have put it out of its misery but chose not to and left it for the yotes. Big difference in strategic tracking vereses being lazy and just plain cruel.

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Originally Posted by sabmgb

I'm thinking some here are correct, if it happened to be a really big rack the outcome would have been different. But making a poor shot just before end of legal, what should have been done is mark where it was and come back in the morning. If dogs got it so be it, if not you have your deer. For the animal suffering, would imagine this happens a lot, people just don't see it. How many people have waited till the next day or for several hours. The animal would have suffered for that time. You are to make reasonable effort to retrieve your game. What is reasonable. Years ago a CO who was hunting shot a deer tracked it for 6hours, until it passed my father. CO came along asked if he had seen a deer. Dad said yes, my son is tracking it. CO said well I wish him well and turned around, he had put in his effort. I track deer till almost dark when it crossed a river. Next day dad and I borrowed a canoe and found spot where it crossed. I carried on tracking it. My dad eventually shot it after it crossed back across the river. That deer would have suffered for many hours.

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Nice work on recovering that deer you didnt shoot. Sounds like it took alot of time and effort. I would have done the same even if i lost a day hunting.

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Originally Posted by fishfood

The law is the law but then you still have a wasted animal. Again you are leaving it to let the meat spoil. I believe this fine could be more. So I guess you need to figure out what is worse. Shooting after dark or leaving it to spoil.

Take the lesser option as they are both crimes. So basically if you follow the law you now break another and so on. So both options are breaking the laws it is your choice but hear it's a hell of fine to let it spoil. Take your pick your screwed either way.

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There would not be grounds for a "spoilage" charge as you have not recovered the animal.

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Originally Posted by longpointer

Like I already posted, the best answer to this question is not to let it happen in the first place !

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Sometimes it is completely out of your control.

Yep. Got a deer square in the chest. For the next 60 minutes it ran anytime we got close to it. Gave it a bit of time at first to bed down and hopefully die, but it just didn't. Not a lot of blood either, so think it somehow missed all vital organs. Couldn't get a good shot at it until about 60 minutes later, after it covered a ton of ground.

The shot was the best one possible based on the way the deer was standing. If it had been a bit later in the day, the deer would have still been running from us after dark. Until the final shot was made, it was capable of running from us. I know what I would have done if dark had fallen. I just can't fathom letting an animal suffer any longer than it has to, if I can help it.

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Originally Posted by brent

Sometimes it is completely out of your control.

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If you choose to hunt the last bit of legal light, a CNS shot can save chasing game in the dark.

Ethics don't out-weigh the law. They should overlap one another.

Find a way to dispatch without using a firearm, or call the CO, and report situation, and ask if they will permit an out of legal discharge in order to dispatch. Note the COs response, and their name and badge #.

Otherwise, stay out until legal light and dispatch when law allows.

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

If you choose to hunt the last bit of legal light, a CNS shot can save chasing game in the dark.

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I guess you have never watched a deer not dead with the jaw blown off it, was pretty nasty.

Maybe you can stop judging the shot, you have no idea, you were not there, you do not know the situation. Besides how you act on here, you are not perfect, if you have never missed where you were aiming you must not have hunted much as it happens to everyone.

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Originally Posted by Fox

I guess you have never watched a deer not dead with the jaw blown off it, was pretty nasty.

Maybe you can stop judging the shot, you have no idea, you were not there, you do not know the situation. Besides how you act on here, you are not perfect, if you have never missed where you were aiming you must not have hunted much as it happens to everyone.

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Can't say I have blown the jaw off anything in 30+years. You seem to be the one judging people here, based on your comments. I'm not judging anybody, only suggesting an alternative to a broad side chest shot behind the shoulder, if you hunt to last light. If you think a head shot is the only way to shutdown an animals CNS, you should do some research....:o

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

Can't say I have blown the jaw off anything in 30+years. You seem to be the one judging people here, based on your comments. I'm not judging anybody, only suggesting an alternative to a broad side chest shot behind the shoulder, if you hunt to last light. If you think a head shot is the only way to shutdown an animals CNS, you should do some research....:o

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Brain and spine, that spine shot is a great one, lots of guys targeting the spine, ha ha ha.

You are suggesting a highly iffy shot for most hunters that are out there with very serious consequences for the animal if missed.

If you consider the broad side chest shot behind the shoulder not a kill shot at last light you are hilarious.

The fact is, sometimes people miss, sometimes an arrow deflects off a branch you do not see or even a rib and not take out the vital organ that you expected when you take a shot.

You claim 30+ years of experience yet you act like you have never seen anything go wrong in a hunt, I do not believe your experience over the 30+ years.

I've seen things go wrong more than once, moreso with slugs. Opening afternoon a few weeks ago I was faced with the same circumstance, ready to head out and there big boy buck staring me down. When he finally gave me a shot broadside to boot, I aimed for the top of his shoulder, never touching an organ. Like a light switch he was dead before he heard the shot...
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Fox, 270 winchester to boot....:D

That's exactly the shot the shooter in this case was going for, high shoulder, who would have thought a Balsam brush could deflect a bullet 12 inches.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...5e2e8c334b.jpg

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And a chest shot deflected would put it in front of the back leg, what is your point Oaknut? Is he one of your hunting buds that shot it?..or just a trolling pic off the net..lol

No, it's just a random picture off the net, point being, scat happens. Sooner or later, no matter how perfect we think the world is, crap can happen.

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Originally Posted by oaknut

No, it's just a random picture off the net, point being, scat happens. Sooner or later, no matter how perfect we think the world is, crap can happen.

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I guess if you want to shoot through the trees, sure will...lol. just a random pic for trolling purposes, nice try...:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

I guess if you want to shoot through the trees, sure will...lol. just a random pic for trolling purposes, nice try...:thumbup:

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I highly doubt that deer was shot. Hit by a vehicle more like it... I’ve seen lots of those!!

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

I highly doubt that deer was shot. Hit by a vehicle more like it... I’ve seen lots of those!!

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I'm not sure as there was no story with the picture. There is a story in our camp about an 8 point that got hit by a semi two weeks after being shot in a similar spot by a 30-06. The driver apparently told the gang and mentioned how you couldn't stand the smell of rotting flesh coming off of the deer.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

I highly doubt that deer was shot. Hit by a vehicle more like it... I’ve seen lots of those!!

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Could be photoshopped, the hole looks so big you can see light from the far side...lol

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Originally Posted by oaknut

That's exactly the shot the shooter in this case was going for, high shoulder, who would have thought a Balsam brush could deflect a bullet 12 inches.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...5e2e8c334b.jpg

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Originally Posted by oaknut

I'm not sure as there was no story with the picture. There is a story in our camp about an 8 point that got hit by a semi two weeks after being shot in a similar spot by a 30-06. The driver apparently told the gang and mentioned how you couldn't stand the smell of rotting flesh coming off of the deer.

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So what is it Oaknut? Its starting to smell like a Troll in here...

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

So what is it Oaknut? Its starting to smell like a Troll in here...

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I'm not sure if there's a deodorant for that but you can give it a try.

I said the picture was from the net, I searched it to illustrate a point to go with a story that has a basis in reality.

For those of us that live in reality and know crap can go awry this is a good thread.



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Originally Posted by oaknut

I'm not sure if there's a deodorant for that but you can give it a try.

I said the picture was from the net, I searched it to illustrate a point to go with a story that has a basis in reality.

For those of us that live in reality and know crap can go awry this is a good thread.



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A friend of the family was hunting with my dad, deer came out at 20 yards from his tree stand. He took the shot and felt great, said he watched the arrow hit and waited the 30min. There was snow on the ground so no issue tracking. My dad followed that deer on and off for a day and a half, the only thing they can surmise is that the arrow went above the lungs and below the spine, just a piercing, in and out. Things do happen, even with a shot that really looks good but is a hair off.

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Originally Posted by Fox

A friend of the family was hunting with my dad, deer came out at 20 yards from his tree stand. He took the shot and felt great, said he watched the arrow hit and waited the 30min. There was snow on the ground so no issue tracking. My dad followed that deer on and off for a day and a half, the only thing they can surmise is that the arrow went above the lungs and below the spine, just a piercing, in and out. Things do happen, even with a shot that really looks good but is a hair off.

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"No man's land" it certainly happens. There will be keyboard jockey backlash for the statement but I have heard many guys speak of it.

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Originally Posted by oaknut

"No man's land" it certainly happens. There will be keyboard jockey backlash for the statement but I have heard many guys speak of it.

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I lost a deer to "no man's land". I didn't really believe it was possible until then. My only consolation was my buddy saw the doe two weeks later and aside from scabbing on both of her sides (a bit high of the mark of course), she was in otherwise good shape. Unfortunately he couldn't get a shot at her.



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Originally Posted by shaner82

Yep. Got a deer square in the chest. For the next 60 minutes it ran anytime we got close to it. Gave it a bit of time at first to bed down and hopefully die, but it just didn't. Not a lot of blood either, so think it somehow missed all vital organs. Couldn't get a good shot at it until about 60 minutes later, after it covered a ton of ground.

The shot was the best one possible based on the way the deer was standing. If it had been a bit later in the day, the deer would have still been running from us after dark. Until the final shot was made, it was capable of running from us. I know what I would have done if dark had fallen. I just can't fathom letting an animal suffer any longer than it has to, if I can help it.

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The big problem was you were pushing the deer. As soon as you start jumping a wounded deer, the chances of finding it are getting pretty slim.

"no man's land"

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Originally Posted by brent

"no man's land"

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Good pic example. Guessing it's a bow shot since it's Nov 1. Are those from your camera?

we always referred to it a the NO KILL ZONE ( it does exist)

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Good pic example. Guessing it's a bow shot since it's Nov 1. Are those from your camera?

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I would assume bow. Yes my camera.

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Originally Posted by brent

The big problem was you were pushing the deer. As soon as you start jumping a wounded deer, the chances of finding it are getting pretty slim.

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A lot depends on the wound. A friend once shot at a massive buck. The bullet deflected off a branch, resulting in a wound high on a front leg. The buck went for a long ways, and eventually tired so it bedded frequently. The intervals between beddings shortened where it would only run a couple of hundred yards. At that point, I knew we would catch up to it. My friend got another bullet into it as it crossed a logging trail. Don’t get me wrong, it was a long tracking job. I think the buck went almost 2 miles. I’m certain however, based on the nature of the wound, we would have lost that buck had we not pursued relentlessly,

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

A lot depends on the wound. A friend once shot at a massive buck. The bullet deflected off a branch, resulting in a wound high on a front leg. The buck went for a long ways, and eventually tired so it bedded frequently. The intervals between beddings shortened where it would only run a couple of hundred yards. At that point, I knew we would catch up to it. My friend got another bullet into it as it crossed a logging trail. Don’t get me wrong, it was a long tracking job. I think the buck went almost 2 miles. I’m certain however, based on the nature of the wound, we would have lost that buck had we not pursued relentlessly,

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I concur with that. It's happened twice to me, once on a 8 pointer that picked up my movement as I raised the rifle to shoot and resulted in a non fatal wound. Not a lot of blood but me and two buds managed to track it to a pond where we lost the sign. Buds gave up but I was determined as hell and after a half hour of circling the pond found a couple of faint pink spots that led into a field and that was it. Another guy had a beagle so we got hold of him and he came to help with his two young lads. Even the dog lost the trail a couple of times and we managed to find it again but it was a long trail. Then we started seeing a couple of small patches of blood on the ground where the buck had laid down and once we heard it take off ahead of us. Finally one of the spots had tons of blood in it and I knew right away the wound had opened up big time and we would find it. Sure enough within 100 yard we came up to him and still had to finish the job. Without the dog to track and push that deer we never would have retrieved it. Plus they were calling for rain overnite so even going back with the dog the next day would have been useless. Speaking of that dog one of the crazier things I've seen was when we finally came up to the dead buck the only thing that beagle wanted to do was try and rip the sack off that buck, he was relentless lol. Scotty had to tie him off after he let him have his reward for a job well done. I have no idea if that's a normal thing, this dog wasn't even a real deer dog or trained tracker but it was still a beagle and he had helped find deer before. It's just one of those things that I'll never forget
The second time it happened I had hunted and scouted this private property once before and had found what I thought would be a great spot for an evening sit. The next weekend with 4" of new snow we go back with a bud who was still new to deer hunting, so I offered the spot to him. So go figure a 10 point comes out to him perfect at 75 yds max. :) Well doesn't Jim get buck fever and not make the best shot as it turned out. I click on the radio and he says he shot at a big deer and it took off. So I ask him if the tail was up or down and it's like, "fuk smitty I'm not sure", I just start laughing. I'm not that far away so I sit for a bit and then still hunt a field edge back to him and show up 15 minutes later, he's still vibrating lol. We wait for a bit longer and walk down to where he shot and yes there is blood but not a lot. Here's where this story differs from the other one. Earlier in the week a couple of local guys had gone up to this property and Pat shoots a doe from a platform blind overlooking a field. They follow the blood for a while until it got dark and for whatever reason he decides to go back the next morning. They found what was left of it a hundred feet away after the coyotes had a feast overnite. Plus we had fresh snow so it was an easy decision for me to try and follow and push it. You can learn a lot from tracking deer. That buck took us into a heavy thick mixed evergreens that I didn't even know was there and it was heavy with deer tracks. There was only the odd drop of blood and we lost the track in all the traffic at one point and had to go back to a known point and redo it. It's getting dark by this point. Long story short, we followed the track to this 6' high page wire fence where this buck ended up jumping it like nothing I guess, a couple of other guys heading back to camp saw it booting across in front of them and heading across this big field. Eventually we managed to find where it entered the bush again and a while later found it expired. Again blood trail gets heavy at the end. Real nice deer for Jim, his best for sure. Bottom line was that we kept pushing it, and again it worked. Hunter 1 Yotes 0

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

A lot depends on the wound. A friend once shot at a massive buck. The bullet deflected off a branch, resulting in a wound high on a front leg. The buck went for a long ways, and eventually tired so it bedded frequently. The intervals between beddings shortened where it would only run a couple of hundred yards. At that point, I knew we would catch up to it. My friend got another bullet into it as it crossed a logging trail. Don’t get me wrong, it was a long tracking job. I think the buck went almost 2 miles. I’m certain however, based on the nature of the wound, we would have lost that buck had we not pursued relentlessly,

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How could you tell where the bullet hit at the time of the shot?