Black Powder Shotgun Modern Single Shots

Been doing some research (YouTube..lol) and came across Dave Canterbury who has extensive videos and and a adapter to convert modern single shotguns into BP with a 209 primer (have not ordered yet). I find this stuff fascinating, and in the process of making my own BP and in the meantime been using cut off high brass shells with FFF, wax paper wads and lead/steel shot, using WIN 209 primers. Smoke and fire is cool - equal volume shot to powder and the pattern effects are the samish at 30yrds with #4, #6, #7.5 and .690 round balls. Modern arms actually take higher pressures then BP, that does not mean go crazy... 90grs FFF is highest load tested so far (110 gr for Hawkins .50 with 250 REAL bullet, is deer load). Good news is, bore snake makes cleaning barrel a breeze.

Just lots of fun and wow cool factor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by line052

Been doing some research (YouTube..lol) and came across Dave Canterbury who has extensive videos and and a adapter to convert modern single shotguns into BP with a 209 primer (have not ordered yet). I find this stuff fascinating, and in the process of making my own BP and in the meantime been using cut off high brass shells with FFF, wax paper wads and lead/steel shot, using WIN 209 primers. Smoke and fire is cool - equal volume shot to powder and the pattern effects are the samish at 30yrds with #4, #6, #7.5 and .690 round balls. Modern arms actually take higher pressures then BP, that does not mean go crazy... 90grs FFF is highest load tested so far (110 gr for Hawkins .50 with 250 REAL bullet, is deer load). Good news is, bore snake makes cleaning barrel a breeze.

Just lots of fun and wow cool factor.

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I have a 12ga barrel for my ML and have been using it for years. I used to use standard 12ga shot cups but then found CVA made shot cups that worked great to hold the shot over the powder. They hold about 1 1/8th an oz of #5 for my Turkey Hunt.

I also found you needed a cushion wad ...they are fiber wads to sit between powder/shot.

load...
https://i.imgur.com/2qYIK3cl.jpg

Mark..does the barrel you use have a choke....some wads are to stiff to pass them with out damage, but you can go 14ga ones to get by the choke.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by line052

Been doing some research (YouTube..lol) and came across Dave Canterbury who has extensive videos and and a adapter to convert modern single shotguns into BP with a 209 primer (have not ordered yet). I find this stuff fascinating, and in the process of making my own BP and in the meantime been using cut off high brass shells with FFF, wax paper wads and lead/steel shot, using WIN 209 primers. Smoke and fire is cool - equal volume shot to powder and the pattern effects are the samish at 30yrds with #4, #6, #7.5 and .690 round balls. Modern arms actually take higher pressures then BP, that does not mean go crazy... 90grs FFF is highest load tested so far (110 gr for Hawkins .50 with 250 REAL bullet, is deer load). Good news is, bore snake makes cleaning barrel a breeze.

Just lots of fun and wow cool factor.

---

You deer load in that 50 seems over max to me.

The standard load was the volume matching the bore diameter, 50 grains to 50 cal. When they went west they would go "loaded for bear", this was a double charge, or 100gr for a 50 cal gun.

Try to find your load maximums, traditions lists 105grs by volume as the maximum load when using FFFg, 110gr for using FFg. The FFFg burns faster and builds pressure quicker.

My 33 1/2in barrel only recommends FFg or equivalent, FFFg burns too fast for that length of barrel but a Hawken is normally under 28in in barrel length.

I would be really iffy about using a cut back shell, you are almost talking about putting a primed half shell in the gun before loading powder, in this case you would essentially be just pointing a loaded gun at your head as you loaded as that primer is there and ready to go. The adapters are inserts that have O-rings to seal up the chamber for gases and also have a small flash hole so you can load and then prime.

H&R Partner model 12 gauge single shot, fixed Modified Barrel, .712 on caliper, no wads (WAA12 type, ect are too tight.) To clarify prime the shell brass with 209, close up breech, pour FFF down barrel, Tamp wax paper down on powder, pour in shot, wax paper tamped down again. It works.

FOX, dads original manual (1972), said up to 120 grs, he found it shot best with 110gr - I have tried 70-110 and achieved same conclusion. 250 gr, LEE R.E.A.L cast bullets with Alox.

It does fire unless action is cocked, not an auto . Only manual cocking. So less risk. No sure of length, but long. I would guess 33 1/2" as well, heavy.. weights 11lbs. The original with brass kick plate, patch locker, trigger guard amd fore stock jam. PIA #10 ignition primers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

You deer load in that 50 seems over max to me.

The standard load was the volume matching the bore diameter, 50 grains to 50 cal. When they went west they would go "loaded for bear", this was a double charge, or 100gr for a 50 cal gun.

Try to find your load maximums, traditions lists 105grs by volume as the maximum load when using FFFg, 110gr for using FFg. The FFFg burns faster and builds pressure quicker.

My 33 1/2in barrel only recommends FFg or equivalent, FFFg burns too fast for that length of barrel but a Hawken is normally under 28in in barrel length.

I would be really iffy about using a cut back shell, you are almost talking about putting a primed half shell in the gun before loading powder, in this case you would essentially be just pointing a loaded gun at your head as you loaded as that primer is there and ready to go. The adapters are inserts that have O-rings to seal up the chamber for gases and also have a small flash hole so you can load and then prime.

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Sweet, I make my own over shot cards (10 different sizes), paper, cardboard, felt, hard board and clear plastic. Most can be made with "Staples" Large hole punch, the rest I make with Princess Auto punch set 1/8' to 1". The purpose of trying this was to be self sufficient for hunting, making powder (time consuming, ball media time), I make my own lead shot (swan shot) and slugs, plus custom cut down wads and over shot cards. I even bought a 50lbs of Princess Auto steel media blasting, which is # 6.5 to #7.5 in size. Having fun.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I have a 12ga barrel for my ML and have been using it for years. I used to use standard 12ga shot cups but then found CVA made shot cups that worked great to hold the shot over the powder. They hold about 1 1/8th an oz of #5 for my Turkey Hunt.

I also found you needed a cushion wad ...they are fiber wads to sit between powder/shot.

load...
https://i.imgur.com/2qYIK3cl.jpg

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by line052

It does fire unless action is cocked, not an auto . Only manual cocking. So less risk. No sure of length, but long. I would guess 33 1/2" as well, heavy.. weights 11lbs. The original with brass kick plate, patch locker, trigger guard amd fore stock jam. PIA #10 ignition primers

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Glad you found the manual, 120gr is a stiff load.

I still look at it as if you have taken your H&R, chambered a shell and then put the butt on the ground with the gun pointed directly at you, sure it is not cocked but that gun sure as heck is loaded and pointed at your head.

I would be very concerned about doing what you are doing, here is an article on pressured with black powder.

Seeing that the max pressure of a shotgun is 12,500psi, you could be running into a serious problem.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_pressure.htm

I get it and your concern, and respect those limits. However, modern BP is not the smokeless even less so with homemade, keeping the measurements within stated composition, following same set procedures during manufacturing of BP is the best way to ensure consistency each time. I don't have the barrel measuring system for max CUP, and my crony is not working, but the kick is far less then a 7.5 gun club load and would be fine for rabbit and squirrel (which is the point)

Is it a risk, yes, do I accept that risk, yes. I load 34grs of Longshot into my .690 round ball loads for 3" (gun club hulls - BPS TPS slug wads - 1/8' over shot card and roll crimp) and there is no formula in any of the 3 shotgun loading books I have for round ball, so I go by shot weight.

What I do is not willy nilly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

I would be very concerned about doing what you are doing, here is an article on pressured with black powder.

Seeing that the max pressure of a shotgun is 12,500psi, you could be running into a serious problem.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_pressure.htm

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by line052

I get it and your concern, and respect those limits. However, modern BP is not the smokeless even less so with homemade, keeping the measurements within stated composition, following same set procedures during manufacturing of BP is the best way to ensure consistency each time. I don't have the barrel measuring system for max CUP, and my crony is not working, but the kick is far less then a 7.5 gun club load and would be fine for rabbit and squirrel (which is the point)

Is it a risk, yes, do I accept that risk, yes. I load 34grs of Longshot into my .690 round ball loads for 3" (gun club hulls - BPS TPS slug wads - 1/8' over shot card and roll crimp) and there is no formula in any of the 3 shotgun loading books I have for round ball, so I go by shot weight.

What I do is not willy nilly.

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"Gun Club Hulls"?

Are you lining up the hulls with specific reloading data? Hulls cannot be interchanged like rifle brass, and even rifle brass cannot be interchanged with max loads and have a safe load.

Did you read that article? They are stating that the pressure from a BP load is running close to double the maximum load of the SAAMI specification for shotguns. With these loads you would essentially be proofing the gun with every single shot.

You say that what you do not not willy nilly but it sure seems as so here and I really worry that someone else will do what you are doing and blow up their gun, worse yet they could kill themselves or someone else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by line052

Been doing some research (YouTube..lol) and came across Dave Canterbury who has extensive videos and and a adapter to convert modern single shotguns into BP with a 209 primer (have not ordered yet). I find this stuff fascinating, and in the process of making my own BP and in the meantime been using cut off high brass shells with FFF, wax paper wads and lead/steel shot, using WIN 209 primers. Smoke and fire is cool - equal volume shot to powder and the pattern effects are the samish at 30yrds with #4, #6, #7.5 and .690 round balls. Modern arms actually take higher pressures then BP, that does not mean go crazy... 90grs FFF is highest load tested so far (110 gr for Hawkins .50 with 250 REAL bullet, is deer load). Good news is, bore snake makes cleaning barrel a breeze.

Just lots of fun and wow cool factor.

---

You might find some of this info helpful:
BLACK POWDER LOAD DATA FOR MUZZLE LOADING SHOTGUNS:


Source GUNS & AMMO 1974 ANNUAL


-------------------------------------------Charge -----------------Shot Wt.
Gauge....... Powder...............Drams........ Grains ........... oz.


12 .................FFg................. 3 1/4............ 89.............1 1/4 Heavy
..............................................3.0 ................82.............1 1/4 Medium
...............................................2 3/4.............76.............1 1/8 Light


14 .................FFg..................3 1/8.............86................1 1/8 Heavy
...............................................2 3/4.............76...............1.0 Medium
...............................................2 1/2.............69...............1.0 Light


16 ..................FFg.................2 3/4..............76...............1.0 Heavy
...............................................2 1/2..............69...............1.0 Medium
...............................................2 1/4..............61...............1.0 Light

For the ML my initial wadding over the powder is newspaper, I find it makes it easier to pack the powder. After the newspaper I've found a one piece (lead) plastic wads work well. With the the one piece steel wads, I take the base wad off and just use the shot cup which I slid down on top of a felt wad that has been loaded over the newspaper. For the 20 gauge, for years I've just used newspaper for wads. I start with a small amount for packing the powder, then add more to thicken it up to have a good base to push the shot. Of late I've picked up some one piece(lead) plastic wads, which I insert over the initial newspaper packing wad.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

Awesome data - I do follow Dave Canterbury who uses equal volume of shot and powder. He has wrote several books on the subject.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

You might find some of this info helpful:
BLACK POWDER LOAD DATA FOR MUZZLE LOADING SHOTGUNS:


Source GUNS & AMMO 1974 ANNUAL


-------------------------------------------Charge -----------------Shot Wt.
Gauge....... Powder...............Drams........ Grains ........... oz.


12 .................FFg................. 3 1/4............ 89.............1 1/4 Heavy
..............................................3.0 ................82.............1 1/4 Medium
...............................................2 3/4.............76.............1 1/8 Light


14 .................FFg..................3 1/8.............86................1 1/8 Heavy
...............................................2 3/4.............76...............1.0 Medium
...............................................2 1/2.............69...............1.0 Light


16 ..................FFg.................2 3/4..............76...............1.0 Heavy
...............................................2 1/2..............69...............1.0 Medium
...............................................2 1/4..............61...............1.0 Light

For the ML my initial wadding over the powder is newspaper, I find it makes it easier to pack the powder. After the newspaper I've found a one piece (lead) plastic wads work well. With the the one piece steel wads, I take the base wad off and just use the shot cup which I slid down on top of a felt wad that has been loaded over the newspaper. For the 20 gauge, for years I've just used newspaper for wads. I start with a small amount for packing the powder, then add more to thicken it up to have a good base to push the shot. Of late I've picked up some one piece(lead) plastic wads, which I insert over the initial newspaper packing wad.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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OMG yes I use Lymons 5th Edition Manual to select my hulls for the .690 round balls, plus I used to follow TATV until they removed many of his videos on reloading (at least he had pressure gauge) I also follow Bubba Roundtree Outdoors who does extensive testing of Round Ball with different loads, wads and powders, he casts all his own buckshot/Slugs/Balls. The .690 round ball load came from one of his testing sessions.
Tell you what - What I do is fine for me - If you don't want to do it, don't do it. I have been reloading and casting and playing this field for a about 5 yrs and have tried 100's of load and powder/wads/shells/primer combos. Used to be I sorted all my hulls by brands, the new Lymon manual lays out hulls by manufacture process and hull composition which makes all the hulls more sortable.

I quote from you:

"You say that what you do not not willy nilly but it sure seems as so here and I really worry that someone else will do what you are doing and blow up their gun, worse yet they could kill themselves or someone else"

You make it sound like I am just winging it with an uneducated comment like that..jesh. I reference Dave Cantebury and people can use free will and educated choices and do what they want. He is the most knowledgeable subject matter expert. P.S. the link you provided speaks to different brands of commercial powder comparisons, and only proves commercial load data switching is not recommended as it does not have the testing as Shotgun and rifle loads, which are proven with multiple sources and testing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

"Gun Club Hulls"?

Are you lining up the hulls with specific reloading data? Hulls cannot be interchanged like rifle brass, and even rifle brass cannot be interchanged with max loads and have a safe load.

Did you read that article? They are stating that the pressure from a BP load is running close to double the maximum load of the SAAMI specification for shotguns. With these loads you would essentially be proofing the gun with every single shot.

You say that what you do not not willy nilly but it sure seems as so here and I really worry that someone else will do what you are doing and blow up their gun, worse yet they could kill themselves or someone else.

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P.S. don't go over to Gunnuts and review "wildcat" reloading forum page- you will lose you mind....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

"Gun Club Hulls"?

Are you lining up the hulls with specific reloading data? Hulls cannot be interchanged like rifle brass, and even rifle brass cannot be interchanged with max loads and have a safe load.

Did you read that article? They are stating that the pressure from a BP load is running close to double the maximum load of the SAAMI specification for shotguns. With these loads you would essentially be proofing the gun with every single shot.

You say that what you do not not willy nilly but it sure seems as so here and I really worry that someone else will do what you are doing and blow up their gun, worse yet they could kill themselves or someone else.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by line052

P.S. don't go over to Gunnuts and review "wildcat" reloading forum page- you will lose you mind....

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I make ammo for guns that do not have any loading data, very old guns, 1 is a rimfire.

The problem is that you are suggesting that others take a primed case that you cut off at the brass, load that into a shotgun then point it at yourself while you load in powder, wads and shot.

You are also using unknown components, if you take a look at the reloading books there is a significant different in measured pressures from different hulls and wad combinations. On top of that there is an unknown reaction to reloading, some base wads have been known to blow out on second and third shots, this can cause a bore obstruction and with a repeating firearm you can blow out your barrel when you shoot that second round.

I do know what I am doing with reloading, metallic cartridges and shotgun reloading are entirely different animals.

This is like the guys that say "make sure you use low brass shells in your old gun". Low brass does not mean anything anymore, AA winchester trap loads are loaded hotter than most field hunting loads, even high brass loads.

I don't care what you do, but if you are having a discussion about what people should try then please document better what you are doing and suggest that they build up their own loads.