This is a Muzzleloading Game-Changer

Not my cup of tee, I like to control my powder load....but for some, the convenience will make it a popular option.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slTq...ature=emb_logo

Strongly disagree with this comment in the article...

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Loose powder charges measured by volume are not very precise and could lead to inconsistencies in accuracy. For example, not pouring the exact amount — too much or too little— of powder every time you load the rifle.

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https://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/a...tQgik.facebook

I gotta agree with you Mike. Maybe if you were in a competition for bragging rights and your barrel had the exact amount of fouling for each shot. But in reality a grain or 2 either way is still gonna get yer Venison. My .02...........................Daniel

I dont think this will sell very well, a lot of the states wont allow this type of muzzle loader, same thing that happened to the electronic ignition ML's, they didnt sell... also, those sticks are MSRP $26.99/ 10 sticks, US dollars

On the plus side, the powder charge doesn't stay in the barrel between sits and moisture or over lubrication won't be an issue.on the negative side..... takes a big part of muzzleloading out of it, gun is useless without the "firestick" and I'm not sure how trustworthy I would be of proper plastic forming leaving a clean flash hole.

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More info on the FireStick:

The Firestick is a new technology that uses an encapsulated polymer powder charge filled with clean-burning Hodgdon Triple Eight powder.... Triple Eight (T888) ???

Take a look...$26 US for 10 shots..

https://www.federalpremium.com/muzzleloading/firestick/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGqSxUFakQk

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Originally Posted by boogaloo

But in reality a grain or 2 either way is still gonna get yer Venison.

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You're right Daniel...a few grains of loose powder here and there are not an issue.....what is wrong with these is that they come preloaded with 100 and 120 gr That is 15 gr more than I use in my hunting load and I know for the bullets I use, they don't fly well with that muchpowder.
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Very expensive to shoot...ea shot= $7.50 + primer !!

Federal Firesticks = $35 (CND) for qty 10= $3.50 ea
B.O.R. Locks (270gr) = $45 for x15 = $3 ea

Thank You for posting MikePal-i think for the ones just staring now,or wanting to change things up ,this is an interesting option in the world of muzzle loading.
Price is bad-but if one is shooting to sight in -practice few shots ,then hunt-is OK.
I really like the ease of emptying the gun.

makes me feel like it's a new version of a cooey.

my knee jerk is to hate the new, but i can see it growing on me. especially since I love shooting my buckstalker and the thing that often stops me from taking it coyote hunting is the hassle at the end of the day when i don't shoot anything...

I have never used a muzzleloader before and this seems to simplify the process. I’m sure it will attract new users. Interested to see what the gun costs.

There are some very cool positives on this.

I did read one article that said that these hulls will be reloadable, so you would be able to tailor your load if you wanted. I wonder if the 888 powder does not have to be compressed, it seems like the 100gr and 120gr versions would either have a set of filler wads or there does not need to be compression like any of the other BP substitutes.

You are still loading through the muzzle and you still have to prime afterward, so the time to load compared to pellets or pre-measured loads will not change.

The hulls are not reloadable, one shot deal...

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Originally Posted by Fox

You are still loading through the muzzle and you still have to prime afterward, so the time to load compared to pellets or pre-measured loads will not change.

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I think it would still be significantly faster. Ram a bullet down the barrel until it stops, grab one of these fire sticks out of your pocket that already has the primer taped in, slam it in the breech and you're good to go.



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If your in the market for a new muzzleloader might be worth a look rifle runs from 500 to 700 USD depending on model.


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Originally Posted by oaknut

I think it would still be significantly faster. Ram a bullet down the barrel until it stops, grab one of these fire sticks out of your pocket that already has the primer taped in, slam it in the breech and you're good to go.



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Not much different than drop 2 pellets, ram a bullet down the barrel until it stops, grab a primer and put it in the breech.

I had pre-measured charges in my pack in some glass vials. I also had an old crosman pellet box with lubed patches and balls ready to go. I was able to shoot and reload in no time with a side lock. I guess I do not see there being too much of a difference with what we had before.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Not much different than drop 2 pellets, ram a bullet down the barrel until it stops, grab a primer and put it in the breech.

I had pre-measured charges in my pack in some glass vials. I also had an old crosman pellet box with lubed patches and balls ready to go. I was able to shoot and reload in no time with a side lock. I guess I do not see there being too much of a difference with what we had before.

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Fair enough, I didn't think of it through pre measured charges. I've never had the opportunity to reload and shoot again.

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Originally Posted by oaknut

Fair enough, I didn't think of it through pre measured charges. I've never had the opportunity to reload and shoot again.

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I got lucky, hit a tree shooting at a doe, reloaded and as my dad was still slowly poking through the bush a fawn came bounding out and bang.

was very quick to load done that way.

A very cool experience.

Wouldn't it make things faster and easier to change muzzle loader season to single shot season.

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Originally Posted by swampsinger

Wouldn't it make things faster and easier to change muzzle loader season to single shot season.

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No, you still have to load the bullet through the muzzle.

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Originally Posted by swampsinger

Wouldn't it make things faster and easier to change muzzle loader season to single shot season.

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By default it usually is :) Miss the opportunity with the first shot , it usual is the end of that season Haha..

Cool idea but I won't sell my Savage 10ML to buy one of them! Lol

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Originally Posted by bellerivercrossbowhunter

Cool idea but I won't sell my Savage 10ML to buy one of them! Lol

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Nothing worse than a non-smoker :)

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Nothing worse than a non-smoker :)

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Funny that most have given up "smoking " for health reasons.:silly::D

Cool. I’m sure it will sell. Will keep my TC Impact though. Also pretty quick loading with a speed loader. On second video they load bullet in first then the firestick? Looks like there’s a stopper in barrel?

[COLOR=#000000] Looks like there’s a stopper in barrel?


Yep,there is a shoulder in the barell, the bullet sits on it.
The firestick charge comes from the breech,and it is pushed all the way up against the bullet.
This design makes reloading those firestick "tubes" with different charges impossible.

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Originally Posted by gbk

[COLOR=#000000] Looks like there’s a stopper in barrel?


Yep,there is a shoulder in the barell, the bullet sits on it.
The firestick charge comes from the breech,and it is pushed all the way up against the bullet.
This design makes reloading those firestick "tubes" with different charges impossible.

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Exactly, that’s what I thought.

Meh

It doesn’t seem great to me. Nice idea but good points above. The cost is outa this world.
I can load $3 custom .435 BC bullets in any of my .458 ml with $.30 of powder that will kill any animal on the continent out to 500 yards....


Or I could use a 5 cent cast bullet with GC and 25 cents of powder to kill anything out to 300 yards....

looks like a fad.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

The cost is outa this world.

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I agree, the cost is a non starter. When I take the ML's out for an shoot in the back yard I load 20-25 shots. A box of 20 saboted .50 Keith Nose cost me $12, adding a few $$ of powder, it costs me about $20.

An afternoon with this Firestick setup would cost about $180. ($7,50 x 25)

That's a lot of 'convenience ' with no real gain in performance or accuracy.

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Originally Posted by gbk

Yep,there is a shoulder in the barell, the bullet sits on it.

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I can forsee that 'shelve' in the barrel being a real pain to clean around. I use a solid jag with a swap cloth and it fits pretty tight to the bore. I can see it jamming up against it.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I can forsee that 'shelve' in the barrel being a real pain to clean around. I use a solid jag with a swap cloth and it fits pretty tight to the bore. I can see it jamming up against it.

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You can clean from the muzzle and the breech, should not be too bad. I am curious about this 888 powder though, they say it cannot be cleaned up with water but not how corrosive it is.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I agree, the cost is a non starter. When I take the ML's out for an shoot in the back yard I load 20-25 shots. A box of 20 saboted .50 Keith Nose cost me $12, adding a few $$ of powder, it costs me about $20.

An afternoon with this Firestick setup would cost about $180. ($7,50 x 25)

That's a lot of 'convenience ' with no real gain in performance or accuracy.

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Well, when you look at the guys pushing for BH209 and Barnes bullets that are pre-packaged in sabots are you really looking at that much difference in cost? You are $2 a shot for 100gr of BH209, or there about. Almost $2 a shot for the bullet, sure it is not $7.50 a shot but $4, and you don't have to waste a shot every time you go out and not see something.

I don't think it will deter those who are going out right now and buying the most hyped up powder and projectiles.

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Originally Posted by Fox

I am curious about this 888 powder though, they say it cannot be cleaned up with water but not how corrosive it is.

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I can't find anything on T888 yet, but if we assume it's a similar (super clean) product like BH209, you will require an oil based cleaner like Hoope's 9, or their Black Powder cleaner or the BH209 solvent.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Well, when you look at the guys pushing for BH209 and Barnes bullets that are pre-packaged in sabots are you really looking at that much difference in cost?

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Since BH209 cost me 50% more than the cost of T77 and the Firestick will cost about twice the cost of BH209 ..then yes that is a big difference. Seems that is not a game changer for some guys, but I find that the cost ($180) would be very limiting to enjoying an afternoon on the range.

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Originally Posted by Fox

and you don't have to waste a shot every time you go out and not see something.

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no comment HaHa...

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Seems that is not a game changer for some guys, but I find that the cost ($180) would be very limiting to enjoying an afternoon on the range.

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I would not be buying it, heck, I put pistol bullets in the sabot myself and save a pile of money but for those who say that they do not see it selling I would disagree. There are tons of people who will hunt based on convenience only and give themselves that extra week to get a deer. The number of guys that will spend $80/20 rounds for ammo to hunt deer at less than 100 yards proves this, ha ha.

I'm saying it wont be selling, the guys in the USA are already laughing at it and saying the same thing, if it dosent sell there, the Canadian market isnt going to big enough to keep producing it for sale over here... and according to Hodgdon, the T888 powder will only be available in the "fiddlesticks", and you will need gun cleaning products to clean your gun, nothing water based

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Originally Posted by bdog

I'm saying it wont be selling, the guys in the USA are already laughing at it and saying the same thing, if it dosent sell there, the Canadian market isnt going to big enough to keep producing it for sale over here... and according to Hodgdon, the T888 powder will only be available in the "fiddlesticks", and you will need gun cleaning products to clean your gun, nothing water based

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I wonder who is actually laughing at it. I wonder if those guys were laughing at the idea of a scope on a smoke pole too.

I just saw an article on a new CVA that came out, 45 caliber with a 2400fps velocity 280gr high BC bullet running up to 150gr of BH209.

I remember when pyrodex came out, in pellet form, people said it was stupid and not going to sell.

I think only time will tell.

A couple comments from another forum that make a good point:

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I don’t think you or I are their target market.
They’re after the segment of the market using pellets and Powerbelts or BoreLock bullets out of an imported rifle that shoots less than 10 rounds a year.

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My concern unless I am missing something is that someone might remove the powder charge at night with a projectile in the barrel. In the morning put in the "powder charge" module and load another bullet. Not a double load of powder but two bullets.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

A couple comments from another forum that make a good point:

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I think the first one is accurate.

The second comment would be no different than taking the primer out and loading powder and bullet the next day on top of the existing load.

You cannot protect against stupid, at least if there were 2 bullets seated close together you would not blow up the gun, you would just have a much heavier projectile.

I can see the "shoulder" being an issue for cleaning. Cost also seems horribly prohibitive.

I'll stick with my Buckstalker. With the removable breech plug, unloading a pair of pellets, would only be a slight bit longer for time / convenience.

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Originally Posted by Fox

The second comment would be no different than taking the primer out and loading powder and bullet the next day on top of the existing load.

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The rational for that comment was that with a traditional load, the witness mark on your ram rod would be way out of whack with another powder/bullet load on top of the one that is still in there. He figured just the length of a BOR Lock bullet may not be enough to make a huge difference with the witness mark if you weren't paying to close attention.

Stupid isn't the same a forgetful...but accidents happen either way.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

The rational for that comment was that with a traditional load, the witness mark on your ram rod would be way out of whack with another powder/bullet load on top of the one that is still in there. He figured just the length of a BOR Lock bullet may not be enough to make a huge difference with the witness mark if you weren't paying to close attention.

Stupid isn't the same a forgetful...but accidents happen either way.

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Your witness marks would still be the length of the sabot long.

Not sure how the internals are but I am sure there would be a distance the rod goes in that is further when unloaded and go in less when double loaded.

You have to be careful, anyone loading twice is loading twice, no matter if just the bullet or a full load.

Bringing up an old thread because I’m in the market for a muzzleloader this year.

Anyone have any reviews on this?


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Depends how 'into' your ML your going to be. If it's just to enjoy the Dec hunt..then any of the $300-$500 ML Cabela's sell will fit the bill. They have good sales. Just pick an inline (removable plug). Most are 28" and will shoot 1" MOA at 100 yds right out of the box.

CVAs seem to be popular. don't hear to many bad things about them.

https://www.cabelas.ca/category/muzzleloaders/2542

Now that looks pretty cool.......may have to look into one of these!

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Originally Posted by Saskfly

Bringing up an old thread because I’m in the market for a muzzleloader this year.

Anyone have any reviews on this?


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My concern would be this way of loading. This is like buying the new unproven cartridge, but it is a rimfire, and you cannot reload for it. If this thing dies then you are SOL and have a $1500 paperweight.

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Originally Posted by Fox

This is like buying the new unproven cartridge,

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Does this happen ??? Where would you buy and who would sell an 'unproven' cartridge. ??

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Does this happen ??? Where would you buy and who would sell an 'unproven' cartridge. ??

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Proven to be safe but not proven as a viable commercial round. The 5mm Remington Rimfire Magnum is one of those that failed. The entire Ertonx line, they were suppose to be the big new thing in ignition, it died and now the guns are useless as primers are nowhere to be found.

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Originally Posted by Fox

My concern would be this way of loading. This is like buying the new unproven cartridge, but it is a rimfire, and you cannot reload for it. If this thing dies then you are SOL and have a $1500 paperweight.

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Definitely a concern, one of the reasons I was asking was to see how popular they where. Price is down to the 700-900 range. Still pricey but not 1500.

https://www.cabelas.ca/product/13912...der?CatId=2542


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Originally Posted by Fox

Proven to be safe but not proven as a viable commercial round.

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Awwww ..commercially viable :)

At $700 at Cabela's, that isn't outrageous if it's an accurate ML. But $35 for 10 shots would have to drop at least 50% to make it viable on the market.

Does not seem like it has taken off and the limited manufacture of black powder charge is a serious concern.

The price per shot does not bother me. I have shot 3-4 times in a muzzleloader season just to empty my rifle as I did not trust the charge.

Hate to admit it but I shoot my .22 and at work to keep my edge. Would hopefully shoot 4 shots a year with the new ML. 3 sighting in, one for meat.


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Since I found a good consistent recipe for my "cheaper" ML a while ago, I have been taken only 2 or 3 shots per year with it: 1 or 2 shots before the ML season to confirm it holds its zero (1.5 MOA max.), and then 1 shot for meat.
As such, I see absolutely no need to waste any of my time & $ looking into so-called "game changers".

My preference in firearms changed a few years back. I now use my MLs far more than my centerfires.

I went thru almost 4 lbs of powder last summer between my .45 Kentucky, inline .50 and my .58 Musketoon. Compare to about 2 boxes of ammo thru my 6.5 and .303.

While somewhat intrigued to play with the new 'NitroFire' it would be better suited to guys who only only gear up on the Sunday afternoon before the hunt and spending $35 for the ammo isn't a big deal.

It sure makes it easier to 'make safe' after the day :)

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Originally Posted by MikePal

While somewhat intrigued to play with the new 'NitroFire' it would be better suited to guys who only only gear up on the Sunday afternoon before the hunt and spending $35 for the ammo isn't a big deal.

It sure makes it easier to 'make safe' after the day :)

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It is not the $35 that makes it a problem, if these powder holders were reloadable then I really think the idea may take off, but a proprietary powder encased in a proprietary holder for single use, it is scary to dump money into a gun like this when you may be SOL in a year or two.

If you are going out to buy this muzzleloader because you just have to have the convenience then I would say you need to invest in the powder holders as well, buy 200 shots worth of the stuff to make sure it has some sort of life span for you.

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Originally Posted by Fox

I would say you need to invest in the powder holders as well, buy 200 shots worth of the stuff to make sure it has some sort of life span for you.

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Oh that's a given...$200 would give you 6 yrs...not a big investment.

If it does not find a viable market, ammo price will drop, invest in a bulk buy..$500.. and you'll have over 20 yrs...

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Oh that's a given...$200 would give you 6 yrs...not a big investment.

If it does not find a viable market, ammo price will drop, invest in a bulk buy..$500.. and you'll have over 20 yrs...

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If it is you or I shooting then we would have to sell our cars, ha ha ha.

Now, if you can make or a company make a reloadable cartridge for this then any BP substitute is viable and makes this a great idea.

The funny thing is that this is an evolution that was seen for BP guns in history, we are just seeing the exact same evolution 150 years later, very neat but I don't see it being commercially viable.

My friend and I both bought one and love them. Really nice to shoot. Accuracy is great,easy to load and unload.
The agreement between Federal and Traditions is only for the first year, after that the other manufacturers can jump on board. That should help to bring the price down and make the idea more popular.