Speaking of game changers

What do you guys think of this? The Smokeless guys are probably saying "ya, 300 yards, who cares", ha ha, but this is a pretty big deal with a more standard propellant.

https://cva.com/product-line/paramount-rifle/

150gr of BH209, 2400fps with a 280gr 45 cal bullet.

I wonder if you ran a sabot and some 357 bullets what would this do, would be nice and flat for sure, as long as you have the velocity to open up those bullets properly.

A 225gr or 250gr partition 0.358 bullet at 2500fps from a muzzleloader, hmm.

The video list a feature called 'bullet guiding muzzel."....what the heck is that ???? HaHa..

Nice looking rifle and fills the demand for a longer range accurate Black Powder ML. Be interesting to see how it compares to the Remington Model 700 Ultimate Muzzleloader at 300 yds.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

The video list a feature called 'bullet guiding muzzel."....what the heck is that ???? HaHa..

Nice looking rifle and fills the demand for a longer range accurate Black Powder ML. Be interesting to see how it compares to the Remington Model 700 Ultimate Muzzleloader at 300 yds.

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Would be, talking about a 50 cal vs a 45 cal though, so depending on the bullet used and if a sabot or no sabot I am sure there would be a bunch of variation.

We should just win the lottery and buy them all, put in some real world testing :)

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Originally Posted by Fox

Would be, talking about a 50 cal vs a 45 cal though

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Essentially both still shoot .45's (one conical one saboted) at velocities in excess of 2300fps. Fairly even playing field. Unless you want to agrue a conical is more accurate than saboted bullit :)

Note: Heads up...I read those Powerbelt ELR bullets requires a special loading jag ($12 US) that has to be ordered in.

https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/cva-p...ip-ac1722.html

Very impressive results, they even hit the target panel once at 735 yds..:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHGvDypVvcM


edit add: interesting to note the comment that the scope ran out of EL adjustment at 37 min for a 600 yd target

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Essentially both still shoot .45's (one conical one saboted) at velocities in excess of 2300fps. Fairly even playing field. Unless you want to agrue a conical is more accurate than saboted bullit :)

Note: Heads up...I read those Powerbelt ELR bullets requires a special loading jag ($12 US) that has to be ordered in.

https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/cva-p...ip-ac1722.html

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The BC of the bullet has a lot to do with it, if the sabot has no impact. I have not seen what 45 cal bullets were planned for the Remington but if they have similar BCs and similar weights then obviously they would have similar results, even recoil, which is claimed to be part of the reason for the 45 cal in the CVA. CVA had to have partnered with Powerbelt on this as they only compare to full bore Powerbelt bullets.

The 50 cal Remington has a 1 in 26in twist and the CVA has a 1 in 22in twist. Based on bergers twist rate calculator if you run a single sabot in the 45 down to 357 with a 250gr partition at 2500fps you will have a slightly unstable bullet. If you use the double sabot in the 50 then your stability is worse.

I am not sure how long the Aerotip bullet is but it seems like they may have designed this gun just for Powerbelts.

Meh

280 grain at 2400 is ok

280 at 3200 would be better!

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Originally Posted by Fox

I am not sure how long the Aerotip bullet is but it seems like they may have designed this gun just for Powerbelts.

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That's what the ad (post #1) says:

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Paired with PowerBelt’s ELR bullets, which were specially designed for the PARAMOUNT®, this barrel can produce incredibly tight groups at ranges previously thought unreachable for a muzzleloader.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

The video list a feature called 'bullet guiding muzzel."....what the heck is that ???? HaHa..

Nice looking rifle and fills the demand for a longer range accurate Black Powder ML. Be interesting to see how it compares to the Remington Model 700 Ultimate Muzzleloader at 300 yds.

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Here is the big question though, has anyone actually seen these things hit well at 300?

What I’ve noticed with the BP ml is that even if they can use the max charge a lot of time it’s spray at 100.

If these guys could figure out how to get a good ES bullet, say .3 G1 BC moving even 2000 that actually had adequate rotation shot out of a very good consistent barrel it would be a dependable 300 yard gun.

It would look like this;

Attachment 39606

My hunting load is this;

Attachment 39607

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Here is the big question though, has anyone actually seen these things hit well at 300?

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There are a few video's out there...this guy is shooting the 280gr ELR (.45) pushed 2300 ft/sec by 140 gr of BH209 out to 400 yds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ41DerFeT8

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Originally Posted by MikePal

The video list a feature called 'bullet guiding muzzel."....what the heck is that ???? HaHa..

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I thought it was referring to leaving the barrel, turns out it's for loading, and it's a real thing; funny, been using barrels with recessed muzzle rifling for years, never knew it was anything but a common sense design.

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Your CVA features a Bullet Guiding Muzzle™. This is a short unrifled section at the muzzle that allows easy insertion of the bullet into the bore. Press the bullet into this section with your thumb. Use a bullet starter to push the bullet into the rifling.

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TC calls it a QLA muzzle,,, quick load assist, some people cut the that off the barrel and is said to improve accuracy in some

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Originally Posted by bdog

TC calls it a QLA muzzle,,, quick load assist, some people cut the that off the barrel and is said to improve accuracy in some

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Not much of an issue if your using sabots, the cup would still be engaged in the rifling when the bullet has left the barrel in full spin.

Ive never had an issue with it, others have, and reported better accuracy after having it removed

So these 280 ELR look very much like a rip off of about 6 other bullets out on market.

I’d like to know the jacket thickness.

If it’s as light as the rest they will go to pieces in animal.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

So these 280 ELR look very much like a rip off of about 6 other bullets out on market.

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Aren't all bullets a 'rip off' of 6 other bullets out there ?? :)

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

If it’s as light as the rest they will go to pieces in animal.

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As advertised;

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PowerBelt Paramount ELR bullets are designed for shooters who require long-range power and accuracy, without compromising ballistic performance. These .45 caliber bullets feature an incredibly high ballistic coefficient (.345) for flatter trajectories and higher velocities than other muzzleloader bullets on the market today. The extended ballistic tip is designed to enhance accuracy, ballistic coefficient, as well as proper expansion on game with minimal fragmentation.

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Found some pics off another forum;

Recovered bullet showing little fragmentation.

https://i.imgur.com/IpQqQCOl.jpg

Measurement of copper plating;

https://i.imgur.com/EESEPdAl.jpg

Bullet Trajectory chart;

Marginal ft/lbs (996) at 500...look at the drop (-87") even when zeroed at 200 !!

https://i.imgur.com/2T8EOCCl.jpg

That bullet looks very fragmented Mike. Looks torn to pieces.

The video shows the fellow hitting 400 yard but I wonder what his group looks like. If it’s good it could be a great option!

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

That bullet looks very fragmented Mike. Looks torn to pieces.

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No mention of the media it was taken from....but the blue spot would be the polymer, still in place, so it can't be that badly fragmented.

Besides if you're just punching paper...who cares if the bullet fragments ???

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

The video shows the fellow hitting 400 yard but I wonder what his group looks like. If it’s good it could be a great option!

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From a hunter' perspective....off the shelf gun with off the shelf ammo and a 1st shot , kill shot, out to 400...that is more than just an 'option' !! Remember it's only the first shot that counts HaHa...

And more gun than 90% of hunters will ever use.....there may only a handfull of guys around that can make that shot with an ML (without a benchrest) in a hunting scenario.

I’ve seen lots of guys trying their best to hit at 300. You don’t know how many shots he took.

If it truly does that every time you pick it then great. Repeatability is the key.

The bullet is in pieces mike.

This is a 275 GN Arrowhead bullet 2 or 3 rd gen. Measures 1.4 inches in length.

Attachment 39611

I shot 3 deer with that bullet in the 310 version but never again. They basically go to pieces leaving the last bit intact.

The other thing I’ll point out is the blue bit on the end hurts your BC.

The bullet in my picture runs at .435 BC and that’s confirmed with a Labradar downrange velocity readings.

I don’t understand why guys don’t just buy a swinglock smooth form die and go bullet to bore in 45 cal barrels with bh209.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

I don’t understand why guys don’t just buy a swinglock smooth form die and go bullet to bore in 45 cal barrels with bh209.

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The vast majority of the ML market is geared towards guys who buy their bullets at Walmart and use pelleted powder. The percentage of guys who shoot long range like yourself and who do custom bullets with customs barrels is minute and not people who companies target with their marketing.

From what I've been reading on other forums is that the 'average' guy likes what he sees with the Paramount Pro and the abilty to have a commercially available bullet with a high BC, flat trajectory that can hit a target at 400 yds. They are even willing to pay the exorbitant price to shoot their x10 loads before going out hunting.

Even though they probably will never shot a deer beyond 100 yds HaHa..

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

I’ve seen lots of guys trying their best to hit at 300. You don’t know how many shots he took.

If it truly does that every time you pick it then great. Repeatability is the key..

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Appears to do as advertised:

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At 400 yards and everything totally dialed in, I was able to put sub-MOA groups on paper and one measured 2.875 inches, which is extremely impressive for any rifle let alone a muzzleloader. In the owner’s manual, it is recommended to use a scope of at least 18 power and I can see that I needed more scope to get the most out of this gun. I’m sure that we can stretch this muzzleloader out well beyond 500 yards. (Michael Deming President of Sportsman's News)

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Not bad for an off the shelf ML with factory bullets.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

The vast majority of the ML market is geared towards guys who buy their bullets at Walmart and use pelleted powder. The percentage of guys who shoot long range like yourself and who do custom bullets with customs barrels is minuet and not people who companies target with their marketing.

From what I've been reading on other forums is that the 'average' guy likes what he sees with the Paramount Pro and the abilty to have a commercially available bullet with a high BC, flat trajectory that can hit a target at 400 yds. They are even willing to pay the exorbitant price to shoot their x10 loads before going out hunting.

Even though they probably will never shot a deer beyond 100 yds HaHa..

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Lots of marketing hype but does it translate to real world results. All these LR results hinge on the very upper end of acceptable charge range. My guess it will work for some and not for most. One size fits all approach never works as described lol.

My point above is simply that 45 and 50 cal in line ml’s currently exist on the market today. Take a swinglock adjustable smooth form die in either of those cals and buy off the shelf bullets and size them appropriately.

I own one of these dies and may just grab a 45 cal BP in line to test my theory.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Appears to do as advertised:



Not bad for an off the shelf ML with factory bullets.

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Agreed but he lost all credibility stating that they are good to over 500 yards. Come on now.

With that lovely rainbow trajectory...lol.sure

Doesn’t state what his set up is but he can see he needs more scope like over X18 as stated in manual.

Have you ever tried to shoot accurately at 300 yards with a lower powered scope?

Marketing hype. That’s all this is.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Agreed but he lost all credibility stating that they are good to over 500 yards. Come on now.

With that lovely rainbow trajectory...lol.sure

Doesn’t state what his set up is but he can see he needs more scope like over X18 as stated in manual.

Have you ever tried to shoot accurately at 300 yards with a lower powered scope?

Marketing hype. That’s all this is.

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Which they have to do in order to sell.
They will no doubt get a lot of "wannabies " who have no idea of what happens in the real world.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Agreed but he lost all credibility stating that they are good to over 500 yards. Come on now.

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Video I posted in post # 5 shows a guy hitting 500, 600 and even 735yds....so ......

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Doesn’t state what his set up is but he can see he needs more scope like over X18 as stated in manual.

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He used a Zeiss Conquest V6 3-18x50, you know, one of those cheap $3K long range scopes.

If you want this now you can save $250.

https://www.cabelas.ca/product/12856...e-muzzleloader