Some excellent work hunting in the mountains at various ranges. Many of the shots are high shoulder and neck, instead of behind the shoulder into the chest.
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Some excellent work hunting in the mountains at various ranges. Many of the shots are high shoulder and neck, instead of behind the shoulder into the chest.
Talent in their shooting ability, for sure. I wouldn't go so far as to automatically label them good hunters though. They don't ever get within 350 yards of an animal. They could be, but there's nothing in the video to show good hunting technique aside from some spectacular kill shots.
If they truly are hunting for the meat, which the disclaimer at the start of the video states, high shoulder shots are not ideal. They're ideal for putting antlers on the ground quickly though.
Appeals to some I suppose and good slow motion effects in the video.
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Isn't killing an animal as fast as possible considered ethical, or would it be more ethical to watch them run off?Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
The talent is not only shooting but being in good enough shape to get up in the mountains and haul out big animals by foot. Mountain hunting is a very physically demanding sport.
Fair point on the physical aspect. I get tired enough going up and down ridges here in Ontario. Mountain hunting would definitely be physically demanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
As to the high shoulder shot, although it puts them down quickly, they aren't dead as fast as when you take out the heart or double lung shot. The running off part can be a bit inconvenient because you might have to track 100 yards, but they're dead on their feet.
There's no denying that knocking them down in their tracks is pretty satisfying. I've made some high shoulder shots (mostly unintentionally), but generally they require a finisher. However, I suppose if you have to cover 400 yards to get to the animal, it'll likely be dead by the time you get there. My reference is more to high shoulder shots inside 100 yards, and you can be to the animal within a short time (minutes). In every case where I've hit high shoulder, I've had to shoot it again when I get to it.
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Its not faster killing an animal that runs after being hit through the lungs or heart. Having an animal drop stone dead from a CNS shot is the fastest way to kill game, the guys in the video demonstrate this with a few of the shots.
They certainly made some great shots but it leaves me to ponder how many ran off wounded. There was a number of times I heard "shoot him again". I'm not so sure it was CNS shots they were going for but perhaps just where the bullets landed. I somehow doubt the headshot on a 717 yard bear was intentional.
I'm not trying to take away from the hunt that these guys choose to participate in, to each their own. The work still has to go in to the hunt and they put the work in to get there. I do believe you are really stretching things a bit to use it as a high shoulder shot showcase. There were definitely a couple bang flops but there was far more that didn't flop immediately and some that the scene was cut away pretty quickly.
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I absolutely agree with you , Lot of hunters are not capable to shoot at long distance ...
They like or not that is the truths ... Now days the better rifle and a scope helps ...
But it is not ethical to shoot past 300-400m ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
I'm not at all trying to showcase anything, it is very apparent that theres more than just one place to shoot to take game cleanly and ethically. Some may not agree, but the sad part is people try saying its not an ethical or ideal shot just because it's not in the chest.
Not sure why a moderator would take down a hunting video on a hunting forum, nothing showing any illegal activity?..I guess hunting is now considered disturbing on a hunting forum?..
Why is not ethical, please explain.Quote:
Originally Posted by alfoldivandor
Hunters will not able to hit the target (that is not a problem ... )
The problem is that they will not hit the vitals ... and the game will run away and will be lost ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
Lots of hunters are more than capable of taking game ethically past 3-400yds as seen in the video. I just don't get it how some that cant shoot past such a distance believe nobody else is capable. The video proved that quite convincingly, there are lots of hunters that can shoot well past 3-400yds with excellent accuracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by alfoldivandor
I agree on the video.... not sure why it would be considered disturbing to those on an outdoor forum under a "hunting" header. The video escaped YouTube's gauntlet but can't make it here.
The high shoulder shot will definitely kill game, yourself and many others have posted the proof of it. It's all about the same, dead is dead. The old bread basket does offer a little more room for error.
There are lots of guys who can hammer out beyond 500 yards and there are lots who can't. More problems arise with those who have never practiced and take a hail Mary, that's where the ethics really come in. Even guys that can blast away on a bench are rather clueless about long range in the field as the conditions are far from superb most times.
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What it doesn't show is that a lot of hunters can't shoot ethically at those distances. But that wasn't the reason the video was taken down.
It wasnt created to show how many hunters cant shoot ethically that far. It was created to show some hunters are very capable of taking game ethically at long range.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
A high shoulder shot is not a CNS shot. It's a high lung clipping shot that breaks the shoulders and hits close enough to the spine to put an animal down on the spot while it's lungs fill up with blood. Taking out both lungs or the heart is faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
Not too many animals in that video dropped stone dead either, and headshots are not a good idea at long range.
I do agree about leaving the video up though, this is a hunting forum after all.
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If you hit high enough on top of the shoulder it will shut down the cns and its lights out. You want even be in the chest cavity
Not sure how many animals you've actually shot in the spine, but it doesn't shut down the CNS, it breaks the animal's back and leaves it dragging itself around with it's front legs. The further up the neck you go, the more likely it's lights out. I've shot deer and moose both in the spine with slugs, rifles and bows (again unintentionally) and been part of the recovery of a good deal more than those, and rarely does it result in a quick death unless the artery near the spine is severed. I've seen that only once with a rifle and once with a crossbow. The other times have all been messy kills.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
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Enough to realize I don't shoot the chest anymore if I don't have to. I don't care for tracking game anymore and I feel its more ethical having them drop stone dead than watching them trot off.Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
Not only is shooting at game over 1000 yards unethical, it's downright irresponsible.
sawbill, you mentioned that wasn't the reason the video was taken down, what was the reason why it was taken down...
Because he cant make that shot so its unethical, irresponsible and disturbing. just like the last video I posted of a elk hunt from long range pursuit hunting show.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo D
Or like this video of an elk hunt you posted on another forum? The fun starts on post 43.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...+vs+30-30+deer
You've been banging this drum a long time, we aren't going to listen to it here either. The debate is fine, once you start into the "because he can't make this shot..." crap, you sound like a teenager.
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I was a teenager in the 70's...lmao. I have no problems shooting to 400+. The only reason I wont go farther is I dont practise much past there and I dont hunt with a 300wm anymore after giving up on moose 18+ years ago when tags dried up.Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
I believe in the first video they were using a 338 cal. Who here in Ontario hunts with a 338. I believe the caliber one uses and the optics has a lot to do with the distance one can use to take down an animal at those distances. That and a lot of practice. I'm not saying it can't be done but not with the rifles normally used here in Ontario. I believe I also saw where there was a 22 ft drop in the projectile from rifle to target... Now that's not a shot I nor anyone else should try... Too much room for error, when you take in wind, drop in elevation etc...
I believe the cut away shots would back that up...
I used to when I was young in my twenties, my bud from work hunts everything with his 338. My neighbor hunts everything with his 300rum. Prolly more people than you think use them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo D
We're on that "slippery slope" again,aren't we,trying to pick and choose what's "ethical" and what's not. Obviously,the aim of mountain hunting for those hunters is exactly the same as it is for us eastern Ontario swamp stompers....a quick,clean kill. We should never judge our fellow hunters just because they choose a different method. That's why we're such a divided lot and easy pickin's for the anti crowd.
I used to belong to Galt Sportsmens Club. Every Fall there would be a "sight in day" where general public could pay $10 and come in for an hour to sight in. Needless to say, busy day, and the firing line was full.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo D
Typical shots...bang, bang, .30s, 308s, 270s, 30-06s etc....then down the line "BOOM!". Everyone stops, and looks down the line at a fat biker dude at the bench..... As I was Range control I ask ".375?"
Biker looks up, grinning..." Look at me, do I look like I wanna chase a moose?!".
Carry on.
Agreed! Tough to beat s high shoulder shot. Dead on the spot. Almost never requires a follow up. For myself anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
Quote:
Originally Posted by kk1
https://youtu.be/sRnL_Mk2p9E
Bingo, ethics are personal, make a clean kill with your legal method and move along.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I don't think that is so much the case here. You can research average groups at benchrest competitions for a light mod sporter group and make some reasonable deductions from there. In a flat environment with all the time in the world with known wind values 10" is an average group to place top 3. Add an inch for lack of known wind, 1" for no bench, 2" for up or downhill angles, 2" for rushed shots...... 20% of your group outside the kill zone are some pretty crap odds.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
it's pretty obvious these guys are not in the heavy gun class as they aren't lugging 70 lbs of aluminum billet firearm up the hills.
The above coupled with the studies done saying that even the softest bullets will fail to properly expand after 800 yards with the RUM paints a clear picture to me.
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The ethics comment was made when a video was posted about shooting at a range of over 1000 yards. Do you seriously believe that ethics is not a valid concern at these obscene distances?
Why hate on those that are capable. Is 700 an obscene distance for the highly skilled..lolQuote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
https://youtu.be/FTA5SKNdi5o
Watch "Lack of Ethics with Long Range Hunters – The Real Gunsmith" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/NTp08rJauos
Anyone wanting to shoot at extreme distance or thinking it's a great idea should give this a watch. It's about as honest as it gets from an old timer who knows his scat.
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Tell that to the crew of gunwerks. Mike Davidson is young guy who has the skill to make it look easy. But according to your video Oaknut, gunwerks guns must not be built proper and Mike is far to young an inexperienced to be able to shoot at the distances he's shooting. Another attack towards skilled shooter and gunmakers because of their age....sad really
For the guys that do it day in and day out no. Every animal in that video that was shot at was hit. All he did was post a video of some long range shooting. It was a video. If we're talking ethics or ethical, how about the guy that hasn't picked up a rifle in years or from the previous season, does not site in his rifle and goes afield. He's got his deer tag, is that what you would call ethical.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
He's not condoning long range shooting, it was a video for us to watch. Do I condone what they were doing, it's not for me to say, but pulling the video is... Police tactics !
So as a moderator you are also the ethics police??? Was what they were doing in the video against the game laws?? If someone is offended by bow hunting videos or maybe graphic prairie dog videos are you going to pull them down as well?? This is a hunting forum and it was posted in one of the hunting sections of the forum??Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
In the wake of all the DU bashing OFAH posted up that what would be best for the hunting community in general is for less division/arguing and less generals resentment against fellow hunters hunting legally but here we have a mod on their HUNTING forum pulling down videos of legal hunting practices................
Looking like the administrator might have to moderate his moderators.............
16 minutes long, but well worth watching!Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
Sounds like a jealous fudd who wants to attack younger gun makers and hunters that are much more capable of shooting accurately past 500yds. More of the same, if I cant do it and I'm old than nobody should be doing so because its unethical.
It was ??? interesting but, in over 60 years of hunting, shooting , reloading and doing tons of reading about "rifles , custom and factory built " I have never heard of Randy Selby.Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutSlayer
He is assuming a lot in his statements about other builders /shooters.
Manufacturing processes have changed and improved considerably over the last several years.
How does he know that the newer builders have not researched their rifles to see what particular load shoots to that degree of accuracy required for those long range shots?
He has an opinion , that's fine but to condemn someone for doing what he cannot is blatantly wrong!
He is an older man with a lot of experience, I will give him that however as a person ages, breathing is harder to control, eyesight deteriorates and makes it much harder to shoot at looong range even with the best optics available.
And just where did I or anybody say anything about gunwerks?Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
Either you ignored the point of that or just refuse to see it. That old fart also can smell the BS from that video as with any of them. It's pretty easy to cut away and film the required parts later. He also mentions the fact that the bullets are not going to do what they were designed for at 1000 yards.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
He's absolutely entitled to his opinion and so is everyone else. I'm sticking with my post,though,as interesting as Mr. Selby is,we must be very cautious condemning others. To do so merely hands the opposition the stick to beat us over the head with. I want to request that whomever took the OP's video down,put it back. Censorship is more dangerous than one man's opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
A .338 win.mag. was mentioned a few times in that long range video.
A 250 grn. bullet at 1000 yards still has enough energy to kill an Elk. [ 1200 ft. lbs. is what is claimed to be necessary]
Ballistic tables show that it still has 1161 ft. lbs. of energy at 1000 yards.[can't get the chart to print.]
link;https://www.outdoorlife.com/elk-cart...s-338-win-mag/
.338 Win. Mag. ballistics infographic
.338 Win. Mag. ballistics at a glance.
The above , in answer to Oaknuts post # 41 , below !
[COLOR=#000000]And just where did I or anybody say anything about gunwerks?
[COLOR=#000000]Either you ignored the point of that or just refuse to see it. That old fart also can smell the BS from that video as with any of them. It's pretty easy to cut away and film the required parts later. He also mentions the fact that the bullets are not going to do what they were designed for at 1000 yards.
Would this be another fake video, or is it possible it could actually be real?Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
https://youtu.be/CvssYmapeSU
They were using a 338rum which is even more potent then 338wm. Looked to be a very effective cartridge at extended rangesQuote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
There's a difference between blatantly attacking someone's ethics and attempting to educate someone. What we have in this thread is a guy who is obviously an inexperienced hunter and may or may not be a practiced long range shooter on paper (hats off to him if he is). He's attempting to pass off what he's watched on YouTube and read on the internet as knowledge and fact.
He posts (I'm sure extremely edited) videos of spectacular long range kill shots and makes bold claims about potential results of these long range kills based on his limited knowledge of animal anatomy and obvious limited knowledge on how animals do or don't react to being shot. Contrary to some popular beliefs, aside from brain/high neck shots, there is no magical "stone dead" x-ring to hit on an animal's shoulder. Full stop. We went through this with Blackwolf already.
We are doing a disservice to those reading this thread who are new to the sport or might otherwise not know any better if we DON'T attempt to call out some of this stuff and bring things somewhat back to reality. Is it not unethical to stand aside and let the uneducated influence the uneducated?
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You have half the equation in place. 1200 lbs is considered the bare minimum with 1500 to 2000 being recommended. But back to half the equation, at 1000 yards that bullet is moving at 1446fps. Copper bullets require 2000 fps to open reliably. Soft point or tipped bullets require 1800fps. Even the new ELD X requires 1600fps. So not only are you a touch under required energy all you are trying to do is punch a hole without any bullet expansion?Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Not my idea of hunting..... shoot the animal, spend 30 minutes walking 5o where it was, spend another 30 minutes trying to locate the exact spot the animal was, realize that all you have done is punch a clean hole through the animals guts and let it walk away to die later.
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Coming from the guy who stated nobody has any business shooting game past 100yds. We can make or own assumptions on your amount of experience. I have far less experience than you, I've only been hunting big game for 35+years. When I was young an inexperienced like yourself I didnt want to believe anything less than though the ribs was the way to shoot game. As years past and I did some of my own experiments, I no longer believe that theory at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
I also have a great respect for talent and skill far beyond my own limitations. I find it truly sad how others here feel they need to attack others that may have more skill and talent that their own.
Also you don't, or forgot to mention the fact that as the bullet drives deeper into whatever it hits, it expands more.Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
If the bullet is traveling too slow to expand in the first place just how do you suppose it will expand more when being slowed further?Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Please see below, 338 Lapua at 100 yards for the first two, 500 for the third and a 30 cal for comparison, all shot into a poplar. Block. The RUM does not have that much of an advantage over the Lapua and there isn't an elk in the world as hard as a chunk of green poplar end grain.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...1a82e10036.jpg
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Absolutely two different mediums , compare apples with apples!
Over 60 years of hunting/killing big game experience, countless dear and 38 moose plus western big game and caribou, I have a very good idea / knowledge of what a bullet will do using everything from standard lead cup and core bullets to various solids.
There is absolutely no comparison in shooting a bullet into a piece of poplar and animal flesh .
Comparing the two shows a very definite lack of knowledge.
That is like the fellow here a number of years ago was going to do penetration tests on dead chickens hanging on a fence, to see how his shotshell ammo penetrates, dead chickens verses live flying ducks, ludicrous! , he was laughed/ridiculed right off this forum.
You are correct, but sorry I haven't shot one into an elk. Tissue is softer therefore less deformation to the projectile.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Think about it, or do a little experiment to prove my point. Place a lead egg sinker on a chunk of ham and another on a block of sound wood and strike both with a hammer then see which deformed more....
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Ok pal. Whatever you say. Again, your lack of English comprehension skills are showing and again that's not what I said. The number of people who actually have any business shooting at big game beyond 100 yards is a very small percentage. Those of us that live in reality already know this.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
I don't care how old you are or what you attempt to pass off as experience, but it's plainly evident by what you post here (and elsewhere) that beyond theory when it comes to shooting and ballistics, you don't have a clue about much else. As to my own experience... folks here can make up their own minds on who is full of it and who isn't.
I won't put you on ignore, because the nonsense you post is just too entertaining, but I'm done wasting my time responding to you.
Oh, and I suggest you do get more comfortable with tracking game if you decide to actually start launching projectiles at game at 400+ yards. Two months ago it was 300+, I guess after a few long range shooting videos your max has increased.
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Again, two different forces at work, against two different mediums.:rolleye:Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
10/4 rubber duckie! [emoji106]Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
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Interesting thread.The ethics of long range shooting at a game( rifle this time)came up again,with two different approaches about it..
I found an interesting Youtube video about an albino bull moose."White moose "'is the title of the short video.
The video is great,but i am to share some comments related to it,those comments show how the video touched people(or not).
For the " pro and con ethic" members(and for those who reason about ethics )
This was about the albino moose-but i think it is an universal message:
Most true hunters have a code of ethics and would never kill such a magnificent animal!
This one is reply to another comment-but boy if it is not driving the ethics home..............
The code of ethics is what most non hunters don't understand about us, I'm with you and following that code will keep us both true to the sport and love of hunting.
Food for thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
Agree..he's honest and has a good grasp of what is ethical in regards to hunting.Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutSlayer
I have a 500 yd range on my property and it's open year round. I've offered it to guys who say they can shoot long range. I get a lot of excuses and they never show up. Haha..
I should call it the 'Put Up or Shut Up' range :)
His follow up video on cartridges is also right on the money. Someone worth listening to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSRhQK9KoMY
love the comment:Quote:
A retired African professional hunter that knew his business once said that if an animal was further than 300 yds he used an ancient technique, stalking. Good advice from one who knows.
You told me we could make it 500 but have to move a wagon to get enough height :PQuote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I am up for it, not in this cold but once thing warm up, you wife can watch the kid :D
Long range shooting is for those who practice at long range. I was watching The Best of the West a month or so ago, they were hunting elk at very long range. They actually discussed setting up with their spotters, settling on the animal and dry firing a dozen times to know the breaking point of the trigger and not having any surprises, it was very well done and they walked through everything for the extreme long range shot.
I have no problem with a long range shot when someone puts in the range time and knows exactly what is happening with their gun or bow. I have a bigger problem with the guys who hunt for 1 week in deer camp and never take the gun out of the safe the other 51 weeks, to me they have worse ethics than the guy who knows there bullet will hit that pie plate at 1000 yards.
Let me give you a few examples.
- Guy brings along his shotgun because he wants the pump and no scope at closer range while dogging, valid. I ask him what he is shooting and he says "These are the slugs the guy gave me, says they will clover leaf at 100 yards", they were sabot slugs, he was shooting a smooth bore gun.
- Guy bring up a borrowed 44 Mag Ruger semi, proceeds to shoot at 2 running deer at 100 yards through the bush, misses, tells me that I should use that rifle over my rifled barrel shotgun as it is "a real rifle". Later that day he tells us that he has not shot it but his buddy tells him it pushes a 240gr bullet at close to 3000fps, he had never shot it once before the hunt. I had shot my shotgun many times, know that it was dead on at 75 yards, 3 slugs touching at that range.
- Guy pulls out his 270 Win, says he is still using the ammo he bought with the gun, back in the 1970s, still had 3 rounds left, "enough for 3 years".
Where are the ethics?
Heres the heart and lung shot, and a high shoulder shot. You can make your own assumptions on ethics. Maybe the mods will pull it down like other hunting videos being posted
https://youtu.be/aYk6cQx5qJ4
https://youtu.be/sRnL_Mk2p9E
any long range video like gunwerks has is a advertisment, same as any hunting show period. They show the best situation in the product they use to sell more of them which then pays for the show,
Hunting outwest for big game you talk to the guides and they laugh at a lot of these long range shows cause they don't show the misses and the cripples which would be bad for business. One guide told me a shooter missed 7 times before hitting a elk, Guess what when he watched himself guiding the hunter on tv the 7 missses got edited out for some reason and it was a one shot kill. Weird how that would happen not showing the truth.
How often do you think an animal is going to stay still after shooting at it 7 times?...lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Matt86
https://youtu.be/sRnL_Mk2p9EQuote:
Originally Posted by GW11
It's important to note that different terrain requires different hunting strategies.
A forest hunter vs a mountain hunter vs a savannah hunter vs a deep sea diver are each going to have differing techniques for harvesting an animal.
One could argue that an ethical shot from a long distance rifle is more benign than traipsing through the woods scaring an animal with your scent.
One could also argue that using a tree stand is an unfair advantage.
One could say that unless you're in the water with a harpoon in your hand, you're not on the same playing field as your catch.
How close do you have to be to an animal to fully comprehend the gravitas of taking its life, and to deserve the rewards left behind?
Those guys are shooting 80lb deer with a 243 and 308 so they have plenty of energy.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
Yes, hitting the brachial plexus will knock down a deer and anchor it there, is it instant death, no. Is it ethical, for sure.
As for the "fake video", nobody said it was fake. I did say it was edited just to show the cream.
Much like a Ram commercial, they will show that truck barreling through mud and snow with ease but what they don't show is the week in the repair shop after! Hahahaha, shots fired!
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Ethical is dependent on the person, that is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
Some would say that anchoring the animal is not ethical if it does not kill the animal quickly. Depending on where the shoulder is hit you may just drop the deer and not have it die right away, would that be more ethical than a heart shot deer running full bore for 5 seconds?
It is a question that has to be asked by the individual hunter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I'm in too. I'd love to try shooting at that distance. Hopefully I have enough adjustment in my scopes though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...UMDX-piJvkfJKE
And here's your 1000 yard elk from your video. Magically after shot number 2 and a couple of minutes the SD card just happened to run out. Imagine that, a trained video crew, seems like perfect timing.
Apologies for inability to embed this one.
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You do understand when you shoot through the brachial plexus and break the spine the cns shuts down and that's it lights out.Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
500 yards should not be a problem at all, may not be able to adjust to that but you can hold over for sure with any high powered rifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by rf2
I know a guy who shoots long range 22LR competition, they have adjustable rails for those rifles, 300 yards or so with that tiny little thing.
If you do all of those things, if.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
If you hit the spine, if you hit the brain, if, if, if.
I do, this stops the heart from beating however so does 180 grains of lead to the heart. Brain death happens after the same period of time in either case due to oxygen/blood deprivation. The bullet does not send high voltage to the brain causing instant death, the entire body behind the bullet strike is paralyzed.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
A recent study I read that was performed on a deer farm that tested positive for CWD had interesting results. They took the opportunity to try and find out why sometimes a heart shot deer will fold without a twitch and other times they can run 100 yards. Upon dissection of the deer that dropped instantly they found all the blood vessels in the brain had exploded. The conclusion was that the bullet struck just as the heart valves opened sending a high pressure rush of blood to the brain blowing up the capillaries. This is the only time brain death will be near immediate when utilizing a body shot.
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The brain is part of the CNS, when it shuts down that's it there is no longer brain function, it has nothing to do with blood or oxygen lose to the brain.Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
Article on Long Range Shooting In Sporting Classics magazine by Ron Spomer
In New Zealand, by Ron Spomer, senior editor, writer, hunter, shooter, gun tester.
Gun-- LAW Professional in 6.5 Creedmore
" One of the biggest changes in hunting during the past 20 years is long range targeting. The perfection of laser rangefinders minimizes the need formagnum speed and trajectories. The SIG BDX [Ballistic Data Exchange ]scope rangefinder bluetooth system not only measures distance to target with angled compensation but also selects the correct sub-reticle for a dead on hold . The BDX system works by entering the ballistic data via a phone app. then pairing scope and laser. The Kilo01800 BDX laser measures the range, then signals the Sierra BDX 4.5 -14x44 mm scope to illuminate the correct aiming point on the reticle. Incredibly easy and precise. After setting up mine, I ranged a target at 405 yards. With bench support the LAW put my 142 grain AccuBond Long Range handload into the one inch bullseye.
On the hunt of course we got perfect on target performance with four one shot kills from 125 yards to 545 yards.
SIG'S BDX system and the LAW Professional rifle aret two winners.
[ in this article, mind you it is not 700 yards plus, but 545 is still long range, and if that is all you are presented with, and you have equipment that will do the job, the 6.5 Creedmore is not a heavy weight, and you have the confidence that you and your equipment are up to the task, you take the shot.]
Speaking of that bonded bullet, it is becoming one of my favorites for it's extremely high B.C. plus consistent expansion and weight retention.
Well. it looks like the REAL GUNSMITH Randy Selby should get with the modern age of hunting and shooting, as has been said, things [equipment] have changed for the better, and it is very possible for good shooters to kill at long range, more than the previous 300-350 yards.
Breaking the spine does not cause brain death and there's a lot of guys in wheelchairs out there to prove that. Even a bullet to the spine directly below the skull does not cause instant brain death. What is witnessed is a loss of consciousness and brain death will come in 12 second or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
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Breaking the spine , along with severing the spinal cord = instant death.Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
[Abnormal movement of neck bones or pieces of bone can cause a spinal cord injury resulting in loss of sensation, paralysis, or usually instant death.]
We [Fire Dept.] were called to a3 vehicle accident, while looking after one of the accident victims , a woman in the least damaged vehicle opened her door to get out, one of the ambulance attendants advised her to stay right where she was as he would get a cervical collar to put one her.
She said she was OK and ignored his advice, she stepped out of her vehicle with us hollering no, no, she stood up and gave her neck a twist.
She was dead when she hit the ground, later on we were told that she severed her spinal column as she had a broken neck, and by twisting that spinal column was severed by the sharp broken bones .
[instant death]
THIS IS FACT, NOT HEAR SAY!
Long Range shooting sure looks just as challenging as getting up close and personal. ???
I personally like to look at them in the eyes........
No I have it set up to shoot off a 3/4 Hay wagon. A) it allows a more comfortable shooting from the prone position and B) it elevates the shooter up 3' so that hitting the 4x4 target panel 500 yds requires less scope adjustments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
The wagon is fixed....it's the target panel (on skids) that can be moved to 300,400, 500 yds.
More than welcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by rf2
To each their own , I am not either for nor against it, myself I have had the opportunity a couple of times to take a long shot because it is all I had and I was successful, but I would sooner get as close as possible to make sure I get a good killing shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter
Would love to try that out and practice at further distance than usual 100 yards. For one day me more comfortable using the 30-06 and 22-250. Haven't had much range time with them cause getting to the range is so expensive and not worth the year since they are so far looking into cornwall gun club since it's a 10 minute drive from my house but want to see what there longest range is and hopefully it's more than 100 yards.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
You might want to check with swat/seal training...they are taught to shot thru the mouth to hit the spine at the back of the throat. Instant loss of all brain functions (instant death) ...important when the target is holding a detonating device.Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
People who break their spines and survive, it's usually lower down the neck.
There is a club (National Capital Region Rifle Association (NCRRA) ) that has (had?) memberships available to use the Connaught military ranges in Ottawa. It has up to 900 meter capability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pair88
http://www.ncrra.ca/index.php
Only issue with that is that we live in moose creek that's over an hour drive to shoot and with a 6 year old daughter that we have a hard time someone watching her for a day for me and my wife to even go for supper so that's a big reason I haven't signed up for a range membership yet... lolQuote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Buy her a pair of pink earmuffs and bring her with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pair88
My GFs daughter is 4, we do it.
We do it as well, she has a 22lr savage rascal and loves shooting a few rounds wife has a video she was hystatic she got 5 for 5 on a cup about 15 yards away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
Are you allowed to take her to rangers at that age? I'm sure if I looked more into their websites they would tell me lol cause she loves shooting her little 22 and the wife's semi auto 22 it's the cutest thing in the world lol
Great comment.........get the kids out!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
I shoot with a couple of English friends, [ skeet and sporting clays] they tell me that in England and Scotland, the high shoulder shot is the prefered shot even on the larger Red Deer.Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
Big difference between hitting the spine above the shoulder and hitting the base of the brain (medulla oblongata) which is where a shot at the back of the throat is going.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medulla_oblongata
That's why I stated in an earlier post that the further up the neck you go, the more likely it's lights out. As Oaknut posted, hitting the spine further back just paralyzes everything from where you hit and back.
Contrary to what is being posted here by others who should know better based on their own experience, hitting the spine does not equal instant death. It does make for an easy walk up to put a finisher in it though, they aren't going far without use of their hind legs.
The high shoulder shot, as shown in the videos, looks dramatic (especially on animals that top out at 80 lbs) but it's not instant death. Note how the camera is never on the animal longer than 10 seconds or so after the shot. In one video, you can see the deer start to move its head again before the camera cuts. When they somewhat recover from having the wind knocked out if them and laid flat by the energy transfer, they start to expire. That usually takes a bit of time. Generally that's when the cameraman turns to film the high fivin' and back slappin'.
Although it looks like those deer are going to cover some ground in the heart/lung shot videos, they're dead in short order. All those reactions to the shot are exactly what you want to see, and you're not losing both front shoulders of a deer.
If you're unwilling to follow a blood trail for 50 or 100 yards to recover your animal, you're in the wrong sport.
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I beg to differ, looks pretty damn dead IMO. great lesson for a new hunterQuote:
Originally Posted by GW11
https://youtu.be/OimGcxEmpEM
People make it sound like your losing 1/2 the deer with a high shoulder shot. Have you actually butchered your own deer after one? Sure you lose a bit but it might make a couple of burgers. It’s really not the end of the world. I get more meat from the heart and liver than what you will lose from that shot. And a high percentage of hunters have no issue leaving those in the field.
I'd say in the last 10 years or so since we've started butchering our own, we've butchered in the neighbourhood of 25 to 30 deer. Investing in an electric grinder made a world of difference. I would rather walk and drag an extra 100 yards and lose a bit of rib meat than pick through a mess of bloodshot meat and bone fragments and lose otherwise decent chili, taco and spaghetti sauce meat.Quote:
Originally Posted by FishHog
That being said, if you don't recover the deer, you lose all the meat. So there are times when a high shoulder shot would be the better choice (next to a swamp, last light, rainy weather, etc), but if you're a meat hunter first and foremost, it's not the my first choice when you can lose less meat with a chest shot.
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I love the heart stuffed with rice and mushrooms baked in the oven. My first choice on a kill shot with deer has always been a head shot, if I was close enough. Horns or no horns! :) A good friend of mine up at moose camp in Caramat, always told me "Shoot'm in the face if you can"Quote:
Originally Posted by FishHog
Here I am in Caramat a couple of years back: Attachment 39707
And stuffing the heart: Attachment 39708
Yes to each their own for sure. Not disputing that. My longest shot was around 400 yards, long story but it did turn out ok. Few at around 300 yards. I don’t practice further then that so wouldn’t even try. I much prefer closer shots. I shot enough game that it don’t bother me to let one walk if I‘m not comfortable with the shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
As far as DRT shots, I shot lots of game inside a 100 yards at the base of the neck. Does the job especially at last night. No tracking needed.
Been a while since I had heart cooked like that. When my dad was alive we had that often. Moose tongue I never cared for unless in the latter stage of a good drunk.Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutSlayer
I also had lots of success with kill shots at the base of head where it meets the neck. No wasted meat.
Right on Deer Hunter. My dad has been gone for a couple of years now. A lot of what I do and what I like, was passed down from him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter
I've shot a lot of deer in my 67 years of living. I've never had to touch the trigger at over 100 yards. I say that because all my deer have been taken in the bush at Burks Falls or in the bush on Cape Breton Island. The only two places I've hunted the tasty animals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
Two good posts GW11, sensible reality check. A shoulder shot is a 'Pin' shot, immobilizes the deer. The results vary depending on what cartridge/ bullet you use and the distance of the shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
Hydrostatic shock plays a key role in what happens to the nervous system and the damage it may do to the spine. No guarantee of a desired, clean 'one shot' kill..especially when your taking high risk long range shots.
I hear ya..12/12 for me too, dead before they hit the ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter
But definitely not a good choice (to small a POA) ) for a long range shot..:)
He is also quite the hypocrite, because in one video he condemns long range hunting, and in another video, he admits to hunting .shooting at long range of 600 to 800 plus yards!:rolleye:Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Your inability to comprehend what what you see and read always astounds me Jaycee... he's quite adamant in the absurdity in hunting game at distances past 500 yds .Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Start at the 9:00 minute mark and pay attention...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifE_fnsOa1s
And yes in this video he says he has hunted long range, but also clarifies why and how come he doesn't support that kind of hunting...that's not being hypocritical that's speaking from experience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTsbIIoRUCA
You dont need 1500ftlbs to reliably kill deer. This is only his opinion. According to his opinion the 30-30 at 100yds should not be used for deer. I am no fan of them but I think the 30-30 is more than enough gun for deer at 100yds. 2000ftlbs for elk sounds a bit much as well. The RUM cartridges produce much more power than a 7rm, which is the cartridge he's commenting on.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Rather than make assumptions from what we see on YouTube, here are a few examples of results I watched with my own eyes. High shoulder, neck and spine shots, with a couple of lung shots for comparison.
The first example is the little buck I shot this past fall. Thread is here:
https://www.oodmag.com/community/sho...er-Camp-Report
What I didn't include in the original story, is that the hole in the neck in the photo was not actually the first shot. I did hit the deer in the neck, but about 6 inches to the left of the hole in the picture, closer to where the neck meets the shoulder. Believe it or not, I couldn't find the first hole until we skinned and butchered the deer.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...45631663e5.jpg
As expected, the original result was as dramatic as what has been posted in some of the videos here. After the deer was down, I got in touch with the gang and then started fumbling with my gear to get down from the stand. This took a few minutes. While doing this, I could hear some noise, two noises actually. One was a wood on wood scraping and knocking sound, one was an "ack... ack" type of sound. Turns out it was the deer. Although still unable to move much, he could move his head enough to rub the bark off the tree in front of him with his antlers and the other sound was just regular dying sounds when you're close enough to hear them. This deer was 20 yards away and it was a quiet morning. I loaded the rifle again and then shot him in the neck, making the hole shown in the photo up above. Here is how I found him, note the bark rubbed off the branch on the ground in front of him.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...206ec29b69.jpg
Here's a much older example. I shot this buck in 1999 with a 12 gauge Challenger slug. My Dad and I were actually on the trail of a buck I had shot earlier that morning when this guy came running towards us. We both shot at it, Dad missed his first shot and the deer started to turn and look in my direction when I shot, hitting the deer in the spine above the shoulder and then exiting on the same side about 8" behind where it went in. When I hit him, his back looked like folding a playing card and his legs went out from under him. You'll have to excuse the quality of some of these photos as they are pictures of pictures.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...78a51ec65e.jpg
We went over to the deer (about a 40 yard shot) and he was still quite alive and moving his head and front legs around despite the fact his spine was broken behind his shoulder. Not appearing to expire any time soon, Dad put one into the back of his neck at the base of his skull.
Here's an archery example. This deer turned to look at me at 20 yards just as I was releasing the arrow. She started to "jump the string" and I heard what sounded like the broadhead hitting a rock and she dropped like a sack of potatoes. I had hit her in the spine and she proceeded to use her front legs to crawl up under a dead fall. I had to get out of the stand and go put another arrow in her at about 10 feet. I realize that it's archery but when we have people making claims that broken spine = instant death, I have to assume these people have never witnessed this.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...4dcff0fb04.jpg
Here's a calf moose I shot in 2005 with a 30-06 at 290 yards and hit in the spine. I'm not a practiced long range shot and in hindsight maybe I shouldn't have taken it, but I had a solid rest and it looked good at the time. As dramatic as in the videos, he dropped on the spot. I actually didn't know whether I hit it or not, because after the scope jumped and rested back on the spot, there was nothing there. The cow walked back, looked at the spot on the ground where the calf had been, bawled a bit and walked away. I radioed the gang and told them I thought I had a calf down but wasn't sure. After a few minutes of silence down in the beaver meadow, a small shrub where the calf had been standing started thrashing around at sort of regular intervals. I began the trudge across the meadow, and 15 minutes or so after the shot I arrived at the calf. He had his head up looking at me and was still quite alive, but his back was broken. I put another one in him just under his chin.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...7ac4a6d0d7.jpg
In 2008 I shot 3 bucks with the same 30-06, all unintentional high shoulder shots. I say unintentional because I found out after the season was over that my rifle was hitting close to 1 foot high at 100 yards, despite the fact that it was sighted in just before the season began. I must have knocked it without knowing. So, although I had aimed for the ribs, I hit 4 to 8 inches higher than intended on all 3 shots. The first 2 from that season, I'm still looking to find the pictures of (actually it's really bugging me that I can't find them at the moment). One was just a 30 yard shot and although not overly dramatic, the buck kind of just froze in his tracks when hit and tipped over. I did shoot him again as I was right there to do it and he sure wasn't "stone dead" when he dropped.
The second one was running ahead of the dogs and I was quite a bit higher than the deer as he was running through the valley and I was high on a ridge. I gave it a shout to stop it and hit it fairly high in the shoulder and exited low (although I was aiming lower) and he proceeded to run right up the ridge I was on and over the hill to die behind me. It was about a 40 yard shot I guess. He thrashed for a while behind me before going quiet. I had to track him a bit but he wasn't far.
The third one was missed by someone else about 30 minutes before he came sneaking out to me. Being a bit of a longer shot than the other 2 (maybe 60 yards), I hit him a bit higher than the other 2. He went down instantly, laid there still for a minute, then kicked and thrashed for a minute or two. By the time I covered the distance to him, I decided he didn't need another shot as the thrashing had almost ceased.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f24a1b1f72.jpg
These are a just a few examples of my own of this type of shot, and one even fits the long range part of the thread. This is the conclusion I draw from these few examples of my own, some that I haven't posted, and the ones I've witnessed in over 30 years of hunting with others. Although dramatic and effective at putting an animal down on the spot, the high shoulder shot doesn't kill any faster than a chest shot. I have yet to find an animal still alive after following a short pink and frothy blood trail.
This doe here I thought I had missed. It was a 70 yard shot and she was running ahead of dogs and had a fawn with her. I didn't find blood in the first 30 or 40 yards but following the direction she went, I found a bright pink splash of blood at the top of the hill she ran up and found her another 50 yards from there stone dead.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...51af2aad0f.jpg
Maybe it's the visual aspect of seeing an animal run off after being shot that makes people assume they are suffering or the chest shot is somehow ineffective at killing quicky. They're dead without knowing and they don't go far, although they can cover a fair amount of ground in a few short seconds. Tracking, although at times inconvenient, is usually much easier than the example above.
Look at the blood trail from this fawn. It was also running ahead of dogs and I shot it running full out through both lungs. It made it as far as the bottom of the hill and collapsed without moving again. Adrenaline only carrys them so far. Note the blood trail on the hill behind.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...1cec22a05e.jpg
I suppose the high shoulder shot is a good idea for long range hunting because I'm sure it's hard enough to find the spot where the animal was standing after walking the distance from where the shot was taken. To add tracking into the mix afterwards and the chance it might run 50 yards and fall off a cliff would present a problem.
But enough with the idea that the high shoulder shot is any more effective at killing in short order than heart/lung shots. They run a short distance and then they're dead. Or sometimes they fall as quickly as the high shoulder. High shoulder shots kills too, but I can't see how anyone can believe it kills faster than taking out the vital organs. The "CNS shutdown" idea? I've never seen it unless you shoot them in the head or the base of the skull/brain.
Y'all can make up your own minds on what the situation calls for and whether or not you're concerned about front shoulder meat. Thanks for reading this long post. It was fun to write and brought back a lot of good memories.
Edit: just realized I should add a legality disclaimer. All pics without tags (when we had to tag) were right at the time of the kill and taken by the person who brought the tag to the kill site, or by me before anyone got to me. The one with the fawn I took off my blaze orange vest and coat (that's an undershirt) to start gutting.
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In this video he says he has killed Elk and deer at up to 825 yards with a Rem. 7mm mag. and is telling us how great a Nosler 175 grn . is .Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnR1SZlcfSA
My comprehension is not in question, but yours well that's another story!:D which is notable.
and.....then he says "I'm not encouraging you to shoot that far." Why ? Well he clarifies that remark in the other 2 videos I linked to with his opinion on long range shooting.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
He's not a hypocrite for hunting long range and then, based on his experience of seeing what happens, then recommend that it not be done. That just gives his comment more credibility.
I'm not going to beleaguer the point any further with you, it's his opinion based on his experience. If you don't agree take it up with him.
I'd really like to sit down with him over a couple drinks. He certainly has my attention. He wasn't too impressed with long range varmint shots with light weight frangible bullets,but,they're necessary where pelt retention is desired.
I'd like to do the same...he has a heck of an CV: Randy Selby does have a long history..built his first rifle in when he was 15...54 yrs ago. He was also reloading at that age. He got a degree in gunsmithing (2 yrs college) and mentored under Les Bowman (Remington). Even worked for Speer Bullets as a tool and die maker. Also worked under Don Burris designing scope mounts etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I thought this thread was going to go south for a while but turned into a very interesting read. GW11, great post and no need to comment on the missing tags in your photos. Judging from your posts I'm sure everything was done by the book. Great post...
Agree with you on the assessment of ME to kill things. On other forum the benchmarks are 1000 for deer and 1500 for moose.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
But there are things to be considered - if you are using a med/small diameter round (.35 and under), you need enough velocity to make the bullet expand, and also enough to penetrate after expansion.
I think that's the crux of the issue. It's not so much the minimum energy to kill a deer/elk/moose....it the minimum/maximum energy to ensure proper bullet performance. The engineers who design the bullet have resolved the mathematical equations that dictate how fast or slow the velocities must be. So there is no set number that will cover all bullet designs, especially when we're talking long range shooting when you not only want the bullet to get to the target at 800 yds, but also have enough energy to make the bullet perform.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Right on MikePal and Werner-the energy of any bullet drops with the distance.Regardless of the powder charge, bullet weight ,BC etc.They all impact the bullet energy at any distance,yet the energy is which assures ,the bullet can do its job.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
The recommended energy of 1700 lbs/sq inch -elk,1500-moose and 1000 - whitetail,has a goal to assure lethal penetration/proper bullet performance even if heavy bones are hit.
At long ranges having enough of it is iffy at best.
Hitting a small area at long distances is "maybe" for the 1-2% of shooters out there . If ...
It's a bit humbling to know that guys like Randy were competitive shooting to 500 yds using open sights !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by gbk
I have seen guys have a hard time hitting a 4'x4' target panel at that distance using x12 scopes .
Apparently the 6.5 can get it done as well. Pretty impressive, not many running off after being hitQuote:
Originally Posted by gbk
https://youtu.be/5fM5Dv_Zktw
If we compare the 6.5Creedmore with the .270Win,we see that they're virtually identical when comparing the same bullet type and weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
I'm not familiar at all with the 6.5x284, but yes it spits out the same bullets as the creedmore. Impressive results though.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Hi Canadaman-not challenging You or anything.......we all have opinions and love to "present" or"stand up"for something.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
I started to watch the video supplied and stopped when-lo and behold,the mountain goat which was shot at long range-and rolled downhill-rolled of from the hill and somehow FALL right in FRONT of the camera!!!???
The video does show long range hits(until i watched it)and showed all along the same scope.So-this video is made not about hunter skills ,this is about how to sell a scope(likely expensive and intended for long range shots).
At the other hand 6.5 Creedmore has 889 ft/sq inch eneargy AT 800 yards!With Win AccuBond 142 gr bullet (which per Win Ballistic Calculator is intended for Big Game Long Range )Where the energy goes at 1250 y is just a guess.Even Win does not bother to show any ballistics after 800 y.
We already somewhat discussed on this thread the energy needed to harvest an animal.
Anyway,to each their own..........cheers.
Although they used the same kind of scope, they also used a 6.5x284 cartridge for most to all the shots. Regardless to a rifle scopes capabilities, the combination of rifle, cartridge, scope and operator shows what can be accomplished. To each their own for sure. The goat rolling down the hill is purely for entertainment. It's no different than watching a hunting show on TV, you will never see a dead deer with its tongue hanging out. Do they cut it off or jam it down their throat, as I've never had a dead deer without the tongue hanging out..lol
Who is Randy Brockman ???, there was a Randy Selby that worked for Speer Bullets .Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
gunna assume you have never hunting out west.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
can take a lot of shots from 500 to 1000 yards as a animal trouts up a hill side in sage brush when it has zero clue where the shots are coming from and keeps stopping.
and that's where a good range finder and spotter is more important then the trigger man.
or is along a cliff and has to cover a mile before it has a chance to run away and not just parallel to the shooter.
some moose will stand there and not move at 100 yards after being missed.
I'm talking from experiences, your talking from what you have seen on tv so you are defiantly right
I dont watch hunting shows on tv..lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Matt86
I guess if you have alot of experience at missing game, that says it all...lmao...;)
these are guides with clients doing the missing like that, that watch these you tube things and think they are snipers.
yes ive missed with a rifle, missed a goat at 100 yards broad side, perfect situation rushed the shot for no reason. yesterday was shooting my new 300 wsm and at 400 yards shot a 3 inch group, but I would put money on it I aint shooting a 3 inch group after climbing the side of a mountain in a hunting situation. ive heard way more stories of people that shoot 600 yards and miss when in reality they have zero clue where there gun shoots.
Their not missing shots on the videos posted, so what are you trying to proove besides attack on people more skilled then yourself obviously? For all the guys you talk about missing that have no clue where their rifle shoots, imo those are the unethical hunters , not the guys who can connect..Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt86
Yea it doesn't look like he gets much support on CGN either...imagine, people see right thru the subterfuge there too. HaHa...Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
Mikepal, I guess it's no different than you comparing shooting frying pans to shooting game..lmao. I didn't know steel frying pan is comparable with flesh and bone...lol
You really do have a problem grasping concepts posted on these forums CM, the guys at CGN have repeatedly told you the same thing. I'd have thought that after all these years you would have figured that out how little credibility you have, but then again, I suspect it's become your forum 'shtick'...stir the pot, even if it it makes you look foolish.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
Why attack on others who can accomplish more than your able to? The videos were posted to showcase what very few can do. A moderator took it down because it was offensive due to the fact it showcased far more skill then his own (sore looser). Further some members continue to attack and make remarks about ethics and irresponsibility, and calling the videos fake. It appears that the many are of the attitude, "if I cant do it, then its unethical and irresponsible".Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Keep shooting your frying pans and comparing metal to animal flesh. Cant say I've ever heard of a cast iron skillet being compared to shooting a moose, you've taught us all something new..lol
HaHa...thanks..perfect example of not grasping it.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
I'll give you a hint:
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
Your absolutely right I dont grasp how you post a video of shooting cast iron skillets and comparing that to a moose or a deer. That's a new one to me I just cant grasp...lolQuote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Yea we all know you didn't grasp it..I think it was explained 3-4 times.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
And for that you get an infraction. You have no idea of his skill level.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
Rule 17. Respect of the moderators and administrator's decisions and policies is a must.
Thread closed as it has turned into a fight among members now.