Selling a non restricted question

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June 25th, 2020, 06:57 PM
fratri

Selling a non restricted question

How does one go about doing it safely......It would be shipped to Saskatchewan. It been years since I sold one......
[COLOR=#333333]
This is from the government website......
You do not need to register non-restricted firearms. That means you can transfer a non-restricted firearm without contacting the Canadian Firearms Program (CFP). However, the transferor (seller, giver) must make sure that the transferee (buyer, recipient) has a valid PAL. Call the CFP at 1-800-731-4000 to confirm the validity of the transferee's licence before you transfer the firearm.

So in practical terms.... Grab the persons PAL number and current mailing address...... Call CFP and ask if the PAL is valid and delivery address matches PAL?
Is that it?
June 25th, 2020, 07:16 PM
trimmer21

Yep,that's it. Easy peasy. It's even easier if you're selling face-to-face. All you need to see is a valid PAL. Record the number for future reference....if you want.
June 25th, 2020, 07:18 PM
canadaman30

Get the buyer to email you a pic of their PAL. Confirm address and ship it to the same address. If they want it shipped elsewhere, that could be a problem
June 25th, 2020, 07:45 PM
fratri

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadaman30

Get the buyer to email you a pic of their PAL. Confirm address and ship it to the same address. If they want it shipped elsewhere, that could be a problem

Ya, thats what I was thinking but some people (from what I read) don't want their PAL out there....
June 25th, 2020, 07:48 PM
rick_iles

Quote:

Originally Posted by fratri

Ya, thats what I was thinking but some people (from what I read) don't want their PAL out there....

In that case, I wouldn’t be selling to them !! CYA !!!
June 25th, 2020, 07:52 PM
fratri

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick_iles

In that case, I wouldn’t be selling to them !! CYA !!!

Rick, If they gave me the number in an email.... Then I would just need to verify the number and mailing address with CFP right?
I don't actually need to see a pic of their PAL correct
June 25th, 2020, 07:56 PM
js4fn

Selling a non restricted question

How’s it work on gun post ?

Seller puts up ad. Emails are xchanged buyer send EMT. Seller ask for picture of pal rpal it’s shipped
June 25th, 2020, 08:04 PM
fishhawk

Never send anyone a pic of your pal. There name and pal number along with a call to the cfc to verify information is valid is all that’s needed.
June 25th, 2020, 08:16 PM
rick_iles

Quote:

Originally Posted by fratri

Rick, If they gave me the number in an email.... Then I would just need to verify the number and mailing address with CFP right?
I don't actually need to see a pic of their PAL correct

Yes, just verify the number as valid with the CFC.. They will give you a reference number....I believe ..
June 25th, 2020, 08:33 PM
rf2

With all the technology options available today, you could ask for a video chat to make sure the face of the person you are talking to matches the face on the Pal. Then call in their Pal number to the Firearms Centre. That way you don't need a photo of the Pal, but you can still do your due diligence.
June 26th, 2020, 12:14 AM
Gun Nut

Quote:

Originally Posted by trimmer21

Yep,that's it. Easy peasy. It's even easier if you're selling face-to-face. All you need to see is a valid PAL. Record the number for future reference....if you want.

I was under the impression with the last change/up date to the legislation, there was something about having to call the CFP to confirm the validity of the PAL, that you could no longer just accept it at face value. You might want to check that out if you plan to do a face-to-face deal. As for someone e-mailing a pic of their PAL there would be nothing stopping someone from retaining the pic of your PAL and then possibly using it do a none face to face firearm purchases, passing themselves off as you. Just some thoughts.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
June 26th, 2020, 04:00 AM
MikePal

Have them take a selfie holding up their card and if they want, blur/block out the info on the card. Have them send that info separately for confirmation.
June 26th, 2020, 04:45 AM
Deer Hunter

I do not communicate with CFP when selling a non restricted firearms. I just make sure the buyer has a valid PAL. That's all you need to do. I don't want CFP knowing nothing about my legal activities.

Quote: Non-restricted
You do not need to register non-restricted firearms. That means you can transfer a non-restricted firearm without contacting the Canadian Firearms Program (CFP). However, the transferor (seller, giver) must make sure that the transferee (buyer, recipient) has a valid PAL. Call the CFP at 1-800-731-4000 to confirm the validity of the transferee's licence before you transfer the firearm.
June 26th, 2020, 05:05 AM
canadaman30

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishhawk

Never send anyone a pic of your pal. There name and pal number along with a call to the cfc to verify information is valid is all that’s needed.

Why? I've sent my pic many times and vice versa have had many sent to me from buyers. If they want it shipped and the shipping address is the same as their pal address then what's the problem. Saves me or someone else a call to the firearms center
June 26th, 2020, 05:37 AM
rick_iles

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePal

Have them take a selfie holding up their card and if they want, blur/block out the info on the card. Have them send that info separately for confirmation.

Not necessary. I recently ordered a shotgun from Sail.
All that was required was my PAL number. I’m sure they verified my PAL with the CFC.....

TRANSFERS OF NON-RESTRICTED FIREARMS AFTER BILL C 71

[COLOR=#868686]Basically, under C71 PAL holders must call the RCMP at 1-800-731-4000 and receive verification before transferring a non-restricted firearm to another PAL holder.
[COLOR=#868686]Under Bill- 71 when transferring a non-restricted firearm, for private sales the seller needs to apply to the Registrar of firearms from the Canadian firearms program (CFP) with the license information of the buyer, which then is verified to be valid and a transfer number is issued denoting a verification has occurred. The CFP registrar can refuse the transfer and may inform the seller why it was refused.
June 26th, 2020, 07:42 AM
fishhawk

Quote:

Why? I've sent my pic many times and vice versa have had many sent to me from buyers. If they want it shipped and the shipping address is the same as their pal address then what's the problem. Saves me or someone else a call to the firearms center

Last few years there's been many cases of scam's committed with would be buyer's sellers asking for pics of pals.
June 26th, 2020, 07:58 AM
Bluebulldog

Quote:

Originally Posted by fratri

Rick, If they gave me the number in an email.... Then I would just need to verify the number and mailing address with CFP right?
I don't actually need to see a pic of their PAL correct

That is correct.
June 26th, 2020, 08:57 AM
trimmer21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Nut

I was under the impression with the last change/up date to the legislation, there was something about having to call the CFP to confirm the validity of the PAL, that you could no longer just accept it at face value. You might want to check that out if you plan to do a face-to-face deal. As for someone e-mailing a pic of their PAL there would be nothing stopping someone from retaining the pic of your PAL and then possibly using it do a none face to face firearm purchases, passing themselves off as you. Just some thoughts.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

After checking the C-71 status,it was proclaimed into law on June 19 2019 requiring a seller of an NR to check the validity of the purchasers PAL by calling 1-800-731-4000. Evidently,it's an automated system where you simply input the number and the info returned is immediate. I stand corrected. The government must think that there's a pile of fake PALS out there.
June 26th, 2020, 09:35 AM
MikePal

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick_iles

Not necessary. I recently ordered a shotgun from Sail.
All that was required was my PAL number.

I know it's not necessary...but there are guys on here that are really anal about these things and I was just suggesting an option if you want to compare Photo to Face.

Some guys still think you need to keep records of who you sold you guns too..
June 26th, 2020, 10:32 AM
410001661

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick_iles

In that case, I wouldn’t be selling to them !! CYA !!!

Exactly! Get them to send you a pic of their PAL. Verify their mailing address with them - there is no address on a PAL so you are assuming he is giving you his proper address.

Receive payment in advance - easiest way is to have the buyer send the seller an EMT with the agreed upon amount. Once payment is received and funds are in account seller packs up firearm (I always like to break it down and put in a case so it is less obvious) - no trigger lock is required. I pack it up in discrete cardboard and lots of packing tape. I take it to Canada post and send it to seller with signature required. Insurance is optional (and buyer usually covers that cost - but can be negotiated). When asked what I am shipping I usually say fishing equipment or tools. Once it is shipped I take a picture of the receipt with the tracking number and send it to buyer - DONE. I request a notification that the firearm was received and the buyer is happy with the product.

I follow the same process with restricted firearms, with the exception of the seller contacting the CFO to transfer the firearm to the new owner after you receive payment but before you ship. Once you receive notice the transfer is complete you can ship the firearm to the buyer signature required.
June 26th, 2020, 01:57 PM
FishHog

If you are going to email your pal at least write void across the pic. There have been many scams of people buying with others pals. Too much fraud these days unfortunately. Or cover part with your thumb etc. It’s no problem if the seller is legit but hard to be sure
June 26th, 2020, 02:34 PM
Fox

Quote:

Originally Posted by trimmer21

After checking the C-71 status,it was proclaimed into law on June 19 2019 requiring a seller of an NR to check the validity of the purchasers PAL by calling 1-800-731-4000. Evidently,it's an automated system where you simply input the number and the info returned is immediate. I stand corrected. The government must think that there's a pile of fake PALS out there.

Basil Borutski, he is the guy who killed 3 women around Wilno on Sept 22 2015. He had a PAL, they took it away from him but not the physical card, I guess he claimed he did not have it. He used that card to buy a gun and ammo that he used to commit the crime.

If you have a PAL and it is revoked or suspended but you still have a card how are people to know that is it valid?
June 26th, 2020, 02:48 PM
Snowwalker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

I do not communicate with CFP when selling a non restricted firearms. I just make sure the buyer has a valid PAL. That's all you need to do. I don't want CFP knowing nothing about my legal activities.

Quote: Non-restricted
You do not need to register non-restricted firearms. That means you can transfer a non-restricted firearm without contacting the Canadian Firearms Program (CFP). However, the transferor (seller, giver) must make sure that the transferee (buyer, recipient) has a valid PAL. Call the CFP at 1-800-731-4000 to confirm the validity of the transferee's licence before you transfer the firearm.

Little bit of double talk there. First section is all you need to know. Every thing else is scare tactics.
June 26th, 2020, 03:43 PM
canadaman30

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishhawk

Last few years there's been many cases of scam's committed with would be buyer's sellers asking for pics of pals.

What kind of scams?
June 26th, 2020, 04:25 PM
rick_iles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Little bit of double talk there. First section is all you need to know. Every thing else is scare tactics.

Not really, since C71, Seller has to verify PAL is valid with CFP....
June 26th, 2020, 04:36 PM
fratri

Well after looking into Canada Post shipping information.... I think I will just wait until they get back to normal business or sell local...

Due to changes to our delivery processes for COVID-19, all firearms must be shipped by Regular or Expedited Parcel and include the Proof of Age option. Consumers have to open a Solutions for Small Business account and create labels for shipping firearms using the online shipping tool, Snap Ship.
June 26th, 2020, 05:02 PM
rick_iles

Quote:

Originally Posted by fratri

Well after looking into Canada Post shipping information.... I think I will just wait until they get back to normal business or sell local...

Due to changes to our delivery processes for COVID-19, all firearms must be shipped by Regular or Expedited Parcel and include the Proof of Age option. Consumers have to open a Solutions for Small Business account and create labels for shipping firearms using the online shipping tool, Snap Ship.

Amazing....they sure don’t want to make things easier do they !!!!
June 26th, 2020, 05:11 PM
trimmer21

Quote:

Originally Posted by fratri

Well after looking into Canada Post shipping information.... I think I will just wait until they get back to normal business or sell local...

Due to changes to our delivery processes for COVID-19, all firearms must be shipped by Regular or Expedited Parcel and include the Proof of Age option. Consumers have to open a Solutions for Small Business account and create labels for shipping firearms using the online shipping tool, Snap Ship.

Ship through another carrier like UPS or FedEx. Can Post and Purolator aren't the only game in town.
June 26th, 2020, 06:10 PM
gbk

Quote:

Originally Posted by trimmer21

After checking the C-71 status,it was proclaimed into law on June 19 2019 requiring a seller of an NR to check the validity of the purchasers PAL by calling 1-800-731-4000. Evidently,it's an automated system where you simply input the number and the info returned is immediate. I stand corrected. The government must think that there's a pile of fake PALS out there.

I do not believe in conspiracy theories,and do not read much into things..............but the way this process is worded, makes me think there is a backdoor registry "in a way".At least they will know who buys ,and who sells.Privately.Thru stores they already know who bought what and when.
If the seller claims otherwise-No(i did not check with you CFP),i sold it anyway,so i dont have it anymore.......because it is a law(C-71)the person can be nailed.
June 26th, 2020, 06:29 PM
rick_iles

Quote:

Originally Posted by gbk

I do not believe in conspiracy theories,and do not read much into things..............but the way this process is worded, makes me think there is a backdoor registry "in a way".At least they will know who buys ,and who sells.Privately.Thru stores they already know who bought what and when.
If the seller claims otherwise-No(i did not check with you CFP),i sold it anyway,so i dont have it anymore.......because it is a law(C-71)the person can be nailed.

I doubt there are any questions or reference to what gun is being sold, just the validity of the purchasers PAL. I haven’t tried the system out, though....
June 26th, 2020, 07:38 PM
trimmer21

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick_iles

I doubt there are any questions or reference to what gun is being sold, just the validity of the purchasers PAL. I haven’t tried the system out, though....

That's what I'm told,also. If anyone can call and check a PAL validity,I'm more than a little curious how they get around The Privacy Act unless the seller needs to input his/her number as well. Then,it necessarily follows that a record immediately exists of a transaction between two PAL holders. Voila! One registry.
June 26th, 2020, 08:06 PM
gbk

Quote:

Originally Posted by trimmer21

That's what I'm told,also. If anyone can call and check a PAL validity,I'm more than a little curious how they get around The Privacy Act unless the seller needs to input his/her number as well. Then,it necessarily follows that a record immediately exists of a transaction between two PAL holders. Voila! One registry.

Exactly what i was trying to guess..............anyone here did transaction under this new law?
I am not big on sell,so have no experience ........
June 26th, 2020, 08:25 PM
fratri

Quote:

Originally Posted by gbk

Exactly what i was trying to guess..............anyone here did transaction under this new law?
I am not big on sell,so have no experience ........

It's been a while but did sell one a few years (5?) back. I ended up calling to verify the PAL, but before they answered they wanted to know what my PAL number was. I asked why (saying something to her like, there is no more registry, why do you want my PAL) her answer was something like..... just wanted to make sure you have a valid PAL as the seller...........or something like that. She said once I hung up, any info we exchanged would be erased..... I was a little uneasy about it but did give her my PAL number....... Like I said, that was a few years ago, not sure how it would be today....
June 26th, 2020, 08:32 PM
410001661

If I called the CFP and they deviated from telling me if the PAL number I had was valid or invalid I would simply hang up.

Funny story........funny but very true!

I sold a Beretta 92FS Inox to a buyer in Edmonton from CGN. At the time there is a looming Canada Post strike so I used FedEx instead. I brought the pistol, holster, and 6 mags all packaged in a discrete box for them to ship to the customer signature required (after the transfer). Back then I also needed an ATT to bring it from my house to the FedEx depot on N.Service Road in Burlington to ship - in the description I said it was fishing equipment. After 4 days the buyer still did not receive the gun. I called customer service and the person I was talking to said sometimes the packing slips fall off the boxes so give her the description of the contents of the box and they will cross reference it with their paperwork and the boxes they have hanging around and they will try and match it up.........seriously!!

I asked if she was sitting down and I told her there was a 9mm pistol, 6 mag's and a holster in that box. Well she lost her - LOL. She tried to tell me that I was breaking the law and that she was going to call the police and I said please do. You are in possession of a restricted firearm that you have no right having. I have an ATT from the CFO stating I can leave my house and drive to your address to ship this to the rightful owner in Edmonton and you lost it. Please feel free to call the police and explain that to themor you can just find the package and send it to the legal owner in Edmonton. She said let me call you back and 30min later they called me and said they found the package (funny what a little motivation will do).

So they finally shipped it and I thought that was the end of it so I called the buyer and explained the situation. When the package finally arrived in Edmonton the buyer showed up at the depot to sign for it and FedEx was not going to release it to him (they had no clue what to do now that they knew it was a firearm). I told the buyer to put the FedEx guy on the line. I politely said that the firearm is registered to the new owner and that this was a legal sale and he replied that he does not feel comfortable handing over a pistol. I told the guy I completely understand. I asked if he had a restricted license and he replied no......then I said what do you think will happen when I call the police and tell them that you are in possession of 'John Doe's' restricted pistol and you refuse to give it to him? I said I have an ATT from the CFO on my end and John Doe has a ATT from the CFO on his end to take it home, and a clerk at FedEx is refusing to hand over the firearm.

He finally handed the gun over to the buyer and that was the end of it. The next day I received a call from an uninformed manager telling me I broke the law and I interrupted her to say I did no such thing. I may have broken your internal rules but I did no break any laws........if I was breaking a law would the CFO provide me an ATT to bring this gun to your depot in Burlington to ship to a buyer in Edmonton........not a chance. I said thank-you and hung up.

Now that being said I only use FedEx with my company's account - I do not date ship anything under my real name - LOL........it would never make the destination. Not a chance.
June 26th, 2020, 11:14 PM
trimmer21

Some private carriers don't have a policy when customers ship firearms. I've used our local UPS office to ship firearms when one of the kids was living out west.The local manager was a friend who knew what I was shipping. He suggested an empty golf club set box,cover the rifle in bubble wrap and packing popcorn to prevent movement. I taped the box shut with packing tape and put "sporting goods" on the shipping documents. The PING corporate logo was printed on the box. It was expensive to ship,but, was delivered in 5 days,none the wiser.
June 27th, 2020, 01:12 AM
Species8472

Quote:

Originally Posted by gbk

..............but the way this process is worded, makes me think there is a backdoor registry "in a way".At least they will know who buys ,and who sells.Privately.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trimmer21

Evidently,it's an automated system where you simply input the number and the info returned is immediate. .

If there is any intent to create a registry of sorts using an automated system it would be pretty simple to derail/corrupt the entire database. Not that i would suggest this but a 12 year old kid could create a bot that calls in with computer generated PAL #s pretending to do transactions. Most will come back invalid but some will hit a valid PAL # and get recorded. By the time those dimwits figure out what is going on the entire data set would be corrupted.

My youngest son who is now 21 did something like this to crash his principals cell phone when he was 14. Created a bot that sent 1000 texts a minute 24/7 to the guys cell phone all from seeming different callers. Would have gotten away with it except like all kids bragged about it to friends and it got out. Needless to say we were both unimpressed and impressed - the police were mostly just unimpressed.
June 27th, 2020, 07:08 AM
fishhawk

Good information can be found here.
https://www.gunpost.ca/online-safety-tips#protectpal
June 27th, 2020, 12:24 PM
trimmer21

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishhawk

Good information can be found here.
https://www.gunpost.ca/online-safety-tips#protectpal

That's excellent info. On-line sales for anything is fraught with financial danger,let alone for firearms where the potential for dealing with the criminal element is quite high. Face-to-face deals are the best,but,always away from one's residence and always with a witness present at a public location. Remember Tim Bosma?