Ammunition and the return of the condors

“Endangered California condors land in Sequoia National Park for 1st time in 50 years.”

The condors appear to be on the come back. Apparently the view on their decline was they were savaging on the remains of animals killed by hunters and it was fragments of lead scatter through the remains that was poisoning them. What caught my attention was the idea of ‘lead fragment.’ I had a cousin who complain of this problem when using nylon tipped bullets, when hunting deer. I know when shooting deer with cast bullets there is no discernible fragmentation to the bullet. It remains intact passing straight through the animal. So I’m wondering if the real culprit isn’t jacketed ammunition. I’ve read other article where they’ve made suggestions of replacing the lead cores with non-toxic material. Just tossing this in to get some views on the matter.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
_- Gun Nut

Qui bono...? Who benefits?

It would be interesting to see the source of the info before making conclusions.If all this mentioned is possible.......yes........but!

We have seen before ,claiming obesity is due of the fat in the food-now with sugar replacing the fat,the obesity is thru the roof.
We have seen margarine heralded as savior-now it slowly becomes public enemy.

Just to name few.

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Originally Posted by gbk

Qui bono...? Who benefits?

It would be interesting to see the source of the info before making conclusions.If all this mentioned is possible.......yes........but!

We have seen before ,claiming obesity is due of the fat in the food-now with sugar replacing the fat,the obesity is thru the roof.
We have seen margarine heralded as savior-now it slowly becomes public enemy.

Just to name few.

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The initial article about the Condor returning to the park was on MSN where they mention lead poisoning and how they came by the idea. Then I found something on the site below. When you consider the level of lead in the environment, I always get wonder how hunters get fingered for putting it there, considering the other source of lead that are out there ( for example lead from smoking, beer and wine drinking - a result of lead base poisons poured on to crops for year for pest control)

Here is the site I referenced : Lead bullets poison California's wild condors - Futurity
www.futurity.org

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. you grow old because you stop hunting.
-Gun Nut

I wonder if it's from small game like ground squirrels and coyotes where hunters might shoot a bunch and leave them to be scavenged.

Find it hard to believe that these condors are getting lead poisoning from big game like deer/bear where a hunter would be packing out the animal, But I guess it possible.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

The initial article about the Condor returning to the park was on MSN where they mention lead poisoning and how they came by the idea. Then I found something on the site below. When you consider the level of lead in the environment, I always get wonder how hunters get fingered for putting it there, considering the other source of lead that are out there ( for example lead from smoking, beer and wine drinking - a result of lead base poisons poured on to crops for year for pest control)

Here is the site I referenced : Lead bullets poison California's wild condors - Futurity
www.futurity.org

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. you grow old because you stop hunting.
-Gun Nut

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Hi GunNut-i was not challenging You..........just saying,sometimes the source tells it all

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Originally Posted by SongDog

I wonder if it's from small game like ground squirrels and coyotes where hunters might shoot a bunch and leave them to be scavenged.

Find it hard to believe that these condors are getting lead poisoning from big game like deer/bear where a hunter would be packing out the animal, But I guess it possible.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

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also no hawks, coyotes, or other animals feeding on the gut pile or dead ground squirrels are suffering from lead poisoning.

Just the Condors.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

also no hawks, coyotes, or other animals feeding on the gut pile or dead ground squirrels are suffering from lead poisoning.

Just the Condors.

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It does seem strange that other scavengers aren’t troubled, so it is probably the way the bird digestive system works. Birds, of course, lack teeth so they rely on grit (small pebbles) which they swallow which end up in their gizzards and along with the muscle structure work to grind up their intake of food along with the digestive acids and gizzard flora. I suspect that lead fragments get added to the grit and remain in the gizzard over a extended period of time until it eventual gets dissolved away by the digest juices, and absorbed into the blood stream, in a bit by bit fashion. Meanwhile in the other scavengers with teeth lead passes more readily through their digestive system, with all the other food material and there is very little absorption of the lead.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

It does seem strange that other scavengers aren’t troubled, so it is probably the way the bird digestive system works. Birds, of course, lack teeth so they rely on grit (small pebbles) which they swallow which end up in their gizzards and along with the muscle structure work to grind up their intake of food along with the digestive acids and gizzard flora. I suspect that lead fragments get added to the grit and remain in the gizzard over a extended period of time until it eventual gets dissolved away by the digest juices, and absorbed into the blood stream, in a bit by bit fashion. Meanwhile in the other scavengers with teeth lead passes more readily through their digestive system, with all the other food material and there is very little absorption of the lead.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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You are right on part of your understanding of birds digestive system and how it works. Well birds do use stones or grit to grand their food the food and grit passes thru their system as one mass. So when a bird eats a meal it also ingests grit and water( how much differ between birds) the grit and water allow the Gizzard to grind the food into a paste. The Paste ( made up of food, Grit and water ) is then passed into the stomach and the rest of the digestive system. In the end ( yup pun) the waste is passed out of the Anus, and is made of waste, water and the grit the bird ate with the meal. Although there could be trace amounts of lead left in the digestive system after the meal, ever meal after that one would move the lead grit out of the birds system.

You can think of the paste as you making cement. You accidentally throw a shovel or two of red( lead contamination ) dirt into the mixer. There is now some red in your cement that you pour, but as you mix and pour more cement the red will disappear.

They would have to be ingesting lead with just about every meal.

Now there was also a lot of unregulated mining of Zinc and Silver/Galena ( Galena a lead ore often containing significant amounts of silver) which produce lead as a by-product as well as lead mining it's self, in California before the EPA regulations of the 70's. There are waste water ponds that have been abandoned for years and once dry allow lead dust to be blown around.

Well Condors do have very good senses of smell, they are not put off by smells that other animals would avoid. Smells like the scent of a waste water pond.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

You are right on part of your understanding of birds digestive system and how it works. Well birds do use stones or grit to grand their food the food and grit passes thru their system as one mass. So when a bird eats a meal it also ingests grit and water( how much differ between birds) the grit and water allow the Gizzard to grind the food into a paste. The Paste ( made up of food, Grit and water ) is then passed into the stomach and the rest of the digestive system. In the end ( yup pun) the waste is passed out of the Anus, and is made of waste, water and the grit the bird ate with the meal. Although there could be trace amounts of lead left in the digestive system after the meal, ever meal after that one would move the lead grit out of the birds system.

You can think of the paste as you making cement. You accidentally throw a shovel or two of red( lead contamination ) dirt into the mixer. There is now some red in your cement that you pour, but as you mix and pour more cement the red will disappear.

They would have to be ingesting lead with just about every meal.

Now there was also a lot of unregulated mining of Zinc and Silver/Galena ( Galena a lead ore often containing significant amounts of silver) which produce lead as a by-product as well as lead mining it's self, in California before the EPA regulations of the 70's. There are waste water ponds that have been abandoned for years and once dry allow lead dust to be blown around.

Well Condors do have very good senses of smell, they are not put off by smells that other animals would avoid. Smells like the scent of a waste water pond.

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"They would have to be ingesting lead with just about every meal."

Not necessarily, I came across an article that stated:
"insoluble grit will remain in the gizzard for months to years, very little is needed, if any at all."
In general the answer to the question: How does the grit pass through a bird?
"The grit, after ingestion, travels down into the gizzard where it will stay for quite a while until it is worn down sufficiently to pass through the bird without causing harm."
The digestive stem of birds does not work as efficiently as does that of mammals. For that reason fragments of bullets remain in their gizzards for a quite a period of time, that is why when they started examining the gizzards of waterfowl they kept finding lead sinkers and bird shot. Amongst the mammals, I believe the bear hold the best record for a speedy digestive system, food waste comes out of them about as fast as they consume the food, for the most part poorly digested

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting?
-Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

"They would have to be ingesting lead with just about every meal."

Not necessarily, I came across an article that stated:
"insoluble grit will remain in the gizzard for months to years, very little is needed, if any at all."
In general the answer to the question: How does the grit pass through a bird?
"The grit, after ingestion, travels down into the gizzard where it will stay for quite a while until it is worn down sufficiently to pass through the bird without causing harm."
The digestive stem of birds does not work as efficiently as does that of mammals. For that reason fragments of bullets remain in their gizzards for a quite a period of time, that is why when they started examining the gizzards of waterfowl they kept finding lead sinkers and bird shot. Amongst the mammals, I believe the bear hold the best record for a speedy digestive system, food waste comes out of them about as fast as they consume the food, for the most part poorly digested

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting?
-Gun Nut

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Yes larger pieces could stay in the system longer, but a birds gizzard is not like a Tumbler in a factory for example.

The Ball bearings in a tumbler are made to be too large to exit the holes.

Birds eat grit that is small enough to easily pass thru their system with no problems.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Yes larger pieces could stay in the system longer, but a birds gizzard is not like a Tumbler in a factory for example.

The Ball bearings in a tumbler are made to be too large to exit the holes.

Birds eat grit that is small enough to easily pass thru their system with no problems.

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You might be surprised what large birds are capable of swallowing when it comes to the size of grit. Here is a plan do a study on the ducks, geese, and turkey you harvest when hunting, slice open the gizzard of each and check them for the grit content. I suspect you are going to find that all the grit that is small enough to easily pass through is the stuff that has been in there for sometime, the larger stuff, will likely be, the new arrivals, their size may surprise you. I use to raise chicken and they didn't necessarily pick up grit small enough to easily pass through their system, I used to feed them pieces of oyster shell, they were quite a size, the dissolved mineral from them was used to harden their egg shells. Mammal are drawn to the shoulders of roads by the road salt to use for ice melt, birds are drawn to the same location to pick up grit, the road department doesn't crush the stone down to small bits and pieces, there is small stuff but it is not necessarily the size of grains of sand. Those bulbous lead sinker can be close to .40 caliber but a loon can swallow them. Consider the elasticity of a pelican peak, they take in large size fish and swallow them whole. Unfortunately those fish have to get broken up and digest before they can exit the lower end, so the elasticity of the digest system seems to declines as the food moves along it. Hence, it has to be ground up and digested with acidic juices to exit. The grit wares down as well and gets dissolved by the same juices. The one article I copy indicate that some elements that are picked up for grit are relatively insoluble and may remain in the gizzard. As well you may wish to check the crop of the birds you take, it is a temporary storage area for the recent grit that is picked up. from there it is passed on to the gizzard.
A bit of hands on science might change your ideas on grit size.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut.

Gun, I think we are splitting hairs over size of the grit which can pass thru.

The question remains of Why do the other Mammals and other BIRDS not seem to suffer from the same problem, or at least to the same extent?
With waterfowl you can see that the shot would be concentrated in a small area, but shot used on upland or large game is not.

Now the lead used in firearms is NON-ORGANIC, well the byproduct from the mining is the organic form of lead and is more easily absorbed by animals..

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Gun, I think we are splitting hairs over size of the grit which can pass thru.

The question remains of Why do the other Mammals and other BIRDS not seem to suffer from the same problem, or at least to the same extent?
With waterfowl you can see that the shot would be concentrated in a small area, but shot used on upland or large game is not.

Now the lead used in firearms is NON-ORGANIC, well the byproduct from the mining is the organic form of lead and is more easily absorbed by animals..

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Big part of the problem with Condors is they don't reproduce until age 6 and than only have one chick every 2 years. Other birds may be experiencing the same problem but due to clutch size/frequency and the fact they don't have to make it to age 6 the impact is mitigated. Lead bio-accumalates - i.e you never get rid of it so even if only consuming it only a few times per season it may kill them them or make them sterile before age 6.

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Originally Posted by Species8472

Big part of the problem with Condors is they don't reproduce until age 6 and than only have one chick every 2 years. Other birds may be experiencing the same problem but due to clutch size/frequency and the fact they don't have to make it to age 6 the impact is mitigated. Lead bio-accumalates - i.e you never get rid of it so even if only consuming it only a few times per season it may kill them them or make them sterile before age 6.

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Good points. But we should also see smaller birds dieing from lead. They may be, but I have not seen or heard any numbers..

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Gun, I think we are splitting hairs over size of the grit which can pass thru.

The question remains of Why do the other Mammals and other BIRDS not seem to suffer from the same problem, or at least to the same extent?
With waterfowl you can see that the shot would be concentrated in a small area, but shot used on upland or large game is not.

Now the lead used in firearms is NON-ORGANIC, well the byproduct from the mining is the organic form of lead and is more easily absorbed by animals..

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The organic your thinking about is actually the ore form of lead, it a mixture of other minerals and possibly metals. after it is separated from the slag you have the purist form of the metal which is harder to dissolve and be absorbed in the digestive system of birds. The ore because of its mixture is easier for the digestive acids to leach away at. It is like thin flakes of lead glued together with the other mineral. In refinement when the ore is raised to the appropriate temperature the lead liquidates and flows away from the other ore minerals. In casting compounds elements like tin and antimony are fluxed into the lead to harden it so it will hold the rifling and spin the bullet. Jacket bullets have softer lead surround by the copper jacket which provides a harder surface to the bullet so it can be driven at higher velocities than the cast bullet. The jacketed bullets mushroom and in some cases break up into fragments of jacket and lead, how badly depends a lot upon their speed and core density and if they hit muscle tissue or bone. If mammals eat the tissue with these fragments they pretty much pass through their digest system because of the size of the digestive track, but like other components of nutrient, lead can be leached from the copper-lead fragments as they pass through. With birds like the condor the fragments remain for awhile in the gizzard and service as grit where the digestive action slowly leach them away so they can safety pass through the remainder of the digestive system without doing harm. Of course as this continues more and more of the leached lead get absorbed into the body as it moves through the intestinal region of the digestive track where nutrients are absorbed into the blood stream. Eventually over time the leads builds up in the blood and tissue enough to kill the bird. I once quizzed at handler at a raptor display and show about the effects of DDT on these birds, his reply took me back a bit, he said that DDT as it has been phased out is no longer the problem, the real problem is lead.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

Gun ( not going to quote)..
Are we seeing Mortality in other birds or mammals like we are in Condor?

There seems to be good numbers ( Documentation) for Condors, but not for much other Animals. I know the wide spread of use of poison in middle of the last century did a lot of damage to everything.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Gun ( not going to quote)..
Are we seeing Mortality in other birds or mammals like we are in Condor?

There seems to be good numbers ( Documentation) for Condors, but not for much other Animals. I know the wide spread of use of poison in middle of the last century did a lot of damage to everything.

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Snowwalker, I haven't done a lot of research into other raptors dying of lead poisoning, I'm only aware of it being the case from what the handler of the raptor said at the show. I suspect there hasn't been any great pains taken as yet to study the turkey vultures, ravens and crows for lead poisoning. Those species have health population numbers as yet, but I would expect it happens, especially if they are picking up lead fragments from the carcasses they feed on. As for the other bird populations that feed on grubs, insects and plan material, the lead that has been leaching into the soil from pesticides may not have yet reach enough of a critical level to create a problem. That doesn't mean their bodies don't have lead levels, the levels may not be high enough to pose a threat. DDT was a bit more of a problem because of its growing accumulation in fat tissue. There has been some research done on other toxins in water damaging the reproduction systems of frogs, salamanders and other amphibians, Then the Regs warn us from time to time of the high cadmium build up in the organ meat of big game animals. The accounting only seems to really get done when there is a danger of a specie collapse.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

Snowwalker, I haven't done a lot of research into other raptors dying of lead poisoning, I'm only aware of it being the case from what the handler of the raptor said at the show. I suspect there hasn't been any great pains taken as yet to study the turkey vultures, ravens and crows for lead poisoning. Those species have health population numbers as yet, but I would expect it happens, especially if they are picking up lead fragments from the carcasses they feed on. As for the other bird populations that feed on grubs, insects and plan material, the lead that has been leaching into the soil from pesticides may not have yet reach enough of a critical level to create a problem. That doesn't mean their bodies don't have lead levels, the levels may not be high enough to pose a threat. DDT was a bit more of a problem because of its growing accumulation in fat tissue. There has been some research done on other toxins in water damaging the reproduction systems of frogs, salamanders and other amphibians, Then the Regs warn us from time to time of the high cadmium build up in the organ meat of big game animals. The accounting only seems to really get done when there is a danger of a specie collapse.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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You can bet that there has been some cherry picking over what does get researched. If it does not help a cause it likely is not being done.

The food pyramid natural passes the toxins of any kind up to the larger animals. But I ask would the lead or other toxins be primarily coming from grit, fragmented bullets and water or up the food chain.

A raptor eats, snakes, Lizards, rabbit, ground squirrels, etc.
Snakes eat, snakes, Lizards, Rabbits, Ground Squirrels, Frogs, toads, etc.

The rabbits and other rodents eat grass and plants which can be contaminated with pesticides or other toxins.

The Vultures and Condors are only eating the dead ones.

No serious research needed. Just a intelligent over a coffee or some brown pops conversation...

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

You can bet that there has been some cherry picking over what does get researched. If it does not help a cause it likely is not being done.

The food pyramid natural passes the toxins of any kind up to the larger animals. But I ask would the lead or other toxins be primarily coming from grit, fragmented bullets and water or up the food chain.

A raptor eats, snakes, Lizards, rabbit, ground squirrels, etc.
Snakes eat, snakes, Lizards, Rabbits, Ground Squirrels, Frogs, toads, etc.

The rabbits and other rodents eat grass and plants which can be contaminated with pesticides or other toxins.

The Vultures and Condors are only eating the dead ones.

No serious research needed. Just a intelligent over a coffee or some brown pops conversation...

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Yes, a lot of harmful stuff gets past up the food chain, some of it may even get into the water resource. I quizzed the Canadian Wildlife Service when they opened up the season on doves about why here in Ontario we were required to use non-toxic shot, while out in B.C. they had the option of using lead or non-toxic shot. I point out that the dove like the woodcock was more like an upland game bird, and that there is no restriction on shooting woodcock. His answer: there is too much leads in Ontario’s environment so you are being limited to non-toxic shot for hunting dove. With that answer there was no further discussion. As I pointed out earlier if you want to elevate the lead level in you blood you have a number opts: smoking, imbibe some beer or wine, another option go to the range and suck back some lead range dust. I found an internet site that went on about a few more option. The apparently the thing that affects the condors is the slow speed at which their digestive system deals with ingested pieces of lead. All animals including us appear to get a daily dose of lead from our food, our system eliminate it ready. so its effects are minimal.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

Yes, a lot of harmful stuff gets past up the food chain, some of it may even get into the water resource. I quizzed the Canadian Wildlife Service when they opened up the season on doves about why here in Ontario we were required to use non-toxic shot, while out in B.C. they had the option of using lead or non-toxic shot. I point out that the dove like the woodcock was more like an upland game bird, and that there is no restriction on shooting woodcock. His answer: there is too much leads in Ontario’s environment so you are being limited to non-toxic shot for hunting dove. With that answer there was no further discussion. As I pointed out earlier if you want to elevate the lead level in you blood you have a number opts: smoking, imbibe some beer or wine, another option go to the range and suck back some lead range dust. I found an internet site that went on about a few more option. The apparently the thing that affects the condors is the slow speed at which their digestive system deals with ingested pieces of lead. All animals including us appear to get a daily dose of lead from our food, our system eliminate it ready. so its effects are minimal.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Well it's nice to see the condors are making a come back.

I just think some times the easiest solution to a problem targets the wrong reason for the problem..

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Well it's nice to see the condors are making a come back.

I just think some times the easiest solution to a problem targets the wrong reason for the problem..

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What you say kind of reminds me of a line of T.S. Eliot’s, Murder In The Cathedral - “Perhaps the last is the greatest treason to do the right thing for the wrong reason.” I hear what your saying though, I always figured the switch from lead to non-toxic shot was something of a stretch. I can only think the waterfowl they sampled, fed in reservoirs down in the states which had clean pristine bottoms so the birds could dip down and easily scoop up lead shot. It hard to image here where the bottoms of waterways are far from pristine, muddy, weed and algae covered, and silted over annually. Waterfowl finding shot to swallowed would be like a prospector digging for a gold nuggets in quick sand. For the most part on rivers and crick ways most shot ends up on the trees on the far shore. On larger bodies of water the shot end up in the middle of the body of water, whereas the puddle waterfowl feed near the shoreline, diving waterfowl again face few lakes with pristine bottoms, so you have to wonder how they scoop up lead shot that gets silted over. So there maybe good reasons to raise question about the finding and where they’ve been done. There is most likely more politics than reality and common scene to some of the decisions

You stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut .

Well I do find it comforting how quickly the hunting supplies company can adapt to the new rules.

California banned lead bullets, with in a year everyone has a non-lead bullet option.

Just on a side note. People in Southern California here have a very distorted understanding of life and many facts.